- Arthur McQueen
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Atheism: why do people don't believe in God?
My question to all atheists is that, why don't they believe in God? Can't they see His signs and can everything that happens on Earth happen by chance? If I don't believe in Allah, Jesus, Buddha or any other God, how can I live? I'll have no direction or paths.
Ok. I agree. There are somethings that we don't know about God, i.e. where did he came from but I believe there is a difference between the knowledge he possesses and we possess. If we'll get all that knowledge, what will be the difference between Him and us? There are numerous points where his knowledge is way better than ours.
If I don't believe in any God, then (I suppose) we are saying that everything that happens, happens by chance. What will be the purpose of living then? Other than living for the betterment of the people, is there any other reason for living? We already live in such chaotic conditions, so isn't it better to die in this case?
Now, I am not trying to hurt anyone's feelings (and if I have done that, I apologize from the depths of my heart) nor am I saying that atheists should die or have no reasons to live but I still find it difficult to NOT believe in God. Thank you.
TED 10+
John Moonstroller 20+
http://www.ted.com/conversations/13616/we_are_all_mortal_we_all_grow.html
Would you check it out and tell what you think?
John.
Casey Christofaris 10+
Don Wesley 50+
Before the Big Bang and after, your believe this to be true!
I am thinking best when I sleep in the morning.
Do you really believe you own!
Casey Christofaris 10+
I don't understand the last sentence. Own?
Yes I do believe this to be true that all that exist is energy. I have some current problems with our current understanding of the big bang but that neither here or there.
Don Wesley 50+
This is your statement!
Casey Christofaris 10+
Colleen Steen 500+
Your comments are short and sweet:>)
I'm wondering if we are on the same page with this idea? I agree with you that energy is neither created or destroyed. So, I believe that the energy that powers the body, may be in another form (or no form at all, as we humans know form) when the body dies.
When you say..."My universe/energy is your God", are you suggesting that you and I may call it energy, and others may call it God, and it is actually the same thing? I believe the terms god/soul/spirit are words created to try to explain the energy that powers our body.
I also noticed another of your comments, where you said time is a human construct, which I totally agree with....energy has no time frame.
Casey Christofaris 10+
Yes I am saying that what I (and most) call energy other call their deity. I actually am also a spiritual person I am a level 3 Reiki student which is a form of energy healing. I am short and sweet with my comments because I don't to loose track of what being said. And I and other people can go on wild tangents and it much harder to bring back full circle via text.
Don Wesley 50+
My wife Denise left the Christian Church for Reiki studies.
And that was when our relationship started to regress.
I am also wondering why your reply to Colleen was sent to me.
Colleen Steen 500+
I agree with your perspective, and am familier with Reiki. I TOTALLY agree...short and sweet comments are good for the reasons you mention:>)
Don,
You got the notice because of the TED reply sequence, which you must be familier with by now?
Casey Christofaris 10+
I think it is all in the same reply line. She had no place to reply to next to her name so I went with the closest reply button.
Yes Reiki is very interesting and is the seeking of higher vibrational fields of energy. That is already flowing through everything and everyone. I am sorry she regressed. Also Reiki does not need to replace your spiritual deity they work hand and hand and the label that is given to them is your choice. Most people in my classes refer to it as spirit or god or even jesus as well as alluh . All these terms are fine, for they all mean and represent in that persons mind the same thing as the other persons mind.
If you would like to talk more about reiki and maybe what happened with your wife and her regression in private manners, I would be more then happy to. cs3@email.com
Don Wesley 50+
I thank you for three reasons:
A. – You are right about what procedure Colleen has followed.
B. - I accept your words, and I quote "All these terms are fine, for they all mean and represent in that persons mind the same thing as the other persons mind." Some Neural Science researchers support that evidence.
C. - I definitely want to learn more about “Reiki” and how it impacted my soul-mate. I will join you at cs3@email.com
Wherever I go, rejected or not, God has his reasons for my being here. He will be revealed.
The law of the old testament is now being applied here; and in Montreal Court, where its power is, unconscionably abusing me. I am very hopeful the error will soon be justly corrected in my favour. That error was caused by perjured testimony and not the Court itself. That is the way the world works now and I can only do what any other human can do and no more. I am not God
Thank You for your kind invitation, I accept and you will hear from me soon. Perhaps your help will heal my relationship with Denise, my soul-mate who is “one with me” by God's Devine law. Law which the Appeal Court of Quebec has recognized in the past. My local Wesleyan Church, believing in God, did pray for a Miracle where Denise and I would together again. We will have lost several at least $200,000.00
Until my last breath I will seek justice.
“That we would be whole again - Don and Denise Wesley.” The prayer and its date.
http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2012/07/to-be-one-with-me-and-that-we-would-be.html
Believing in God is a reality here on earth. There is confusion and its fallout is suffering and injustice; we as individuals are to blame.
Until soon,
Aware of and caring about us All.
Don [From The Silent Generation - 1930's]
John Moonstroller 20+
"Faith is the denial of observation so the belief can be preserved." ~Tim Mincin an artist/comedian
I say it's nonsense because it create an idealism (faith) then prepossess to suggest it has some kind of distinctive power to observe and statistic evidence. Then reaches a similarly questionable conclusion that Faith and belief are related in a negating fashion.
It's pure nonsense Gabo. Do you actually believe this statement?
Belief substantiates the faith and the faith supplies the power to maintain the belief. They feed one another. (in religious speak).
I think it's just a lead in to a joke. So you think it's some kind of philosophy?
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John Moonstroller 20+
This in my email address. I give you full permission to take this out of the public arena where we can talk about it one to another. rexrino@moonstroller.com
Here, in the privacy of our email, you can be as smug as you like. :)
Looking at your 1800 or so posts. It appears all you do with your PhD, is instigate arguments and make smug retorts about the existence of God and other Religious subjects. The times associated with the posts are interesting also. Don't you ever take time to research some data or swish some test tubes around? Must be quiet a job where you don't have to work. I can't find any record of the person that fits your profile anywhere in Ontario.
Gabo Moreno 100+
You would be amazed at how much you can write between test tubes. That's the trick to be able to publish your research findings on time. You write, you get stuck, send a comment, say, twiit or ted. Continue writing the paper, oh, wait, let's read that article too, timer! ok, back to the test tubes, and so on. research gets you working all day. Thus you mix and match activities.
see ya man. no need for you to agree with me on anything.
Colleen Steen 500+
http://www.wlu.ca/homepage.php?grp_id=602&f_id=4
John Moonstroller 20+
I ask of you John, lead us to the wisdom of great design..."
It is the duty of the strong to help the weak or the village will be destroyed by outsiders. The weak may not be able to swing the sword but they can bind the wounds and sharpen the blade.
We are the confused ones Don. All of us together. Together we must stand or one by one be picked off by the strangers.
I don't have the answer Don. I am not the Leader. Like I said before.... if you want to follow me you better bring a sleeping bag and compass because we will get lost in the wilderness.
Don Wesley 50+
I felt he knew; I asked for the key to the big machine,
Round and round it turns like one big wheel,
Never stopping day nor night.
From crafty Specialist to Totalist I evolved
And shouted stop; I want to leave.
And he replied “Once on, never off.”
And he gave me key that stays with me.
I have seen his power; at first you fear
And then you hear The sounds of Silence.
Confusion gone, For ever and ever Joy Devine.
John Moonstroller 20+
:0 me neither ;0
So when are you going to join my forum?
John Moonstroller 20+
With all its guiding tools.
I look up.
In the light of day, I see the human confusion,
And that is the better time to sleep.
And so in the day, I sleep and do most of my best,
Uninterrupted reasoning.
In the military, as I young officer
I learned to move in the night, with the best prepared map.
The enemy is asleep and I have covered myself with black.
It is really cool."
Cool it is Don. :)
The fear is great at the edge of the cliff when you look down at the swirling waters.
Wind and sand batter your mind and you wonder at the tranquility that lies just below.
With so much work left to be done and so little energy inside, we stumble sometimes almost falling over the cliff.
To be old
To be so close the the end of the game
It can be a frightening affair with the mocking young so close behind.
We smile, pick ourselves up and trudge back to our cottages;
We know they have much to learn.
John Moonstroller 20+
In my perception John, I have nothing to excuse. I actually like to calm things down whenever possible, which Robert acknowledged."
Colleen.... I really don't know how to answer your response. You may find this hard to believe but when I saw you beating up on a senior citizen the way you did, with relish, and disdain, I actually had to back away from the computer, go smoke a Cig., get a glass of tea and sit on the deck listening to the frogs and crickets to compose my self. I am thinking of leaving TED, finding nothing more here than is everywhere else. I have my own forum where me and my son are trying to create a virtual world for my whole family. A place where our kids can visit with their friends and family and be safe from the internet monsters. It was going to be opened to everyone but Robert..... dear Robert..... has convinced me that no one outside my family can be trusted with secrets.
I may look like nothing but a monkey to you Colleen but I saw you as a real human being as I do all of you.
The issues that plague the human condition cannot be rectified and closed in the social media. We are fooling ourselves to believe such a thing is possible. We have to do this in the wind or reality.
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John Moonstroller 20+
Yet, I see this side of you and he all the time. It gets real old. Have you noticed Don and I don't have these conversation problems you and he have? Do you actually read what others have to say and delve deeply into their idea, how earnestly they believe in their belief system? I do all the time. I even reread them from time to time, trying to draw a real picture of the personality I'm conversing with.
I've read you post over and over again.
TED was supposed to be about ideas and sharing, not flame wars and name calling. It failed. It didn't pass the social test. It's like a fake Mona Lisa.
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John Moonstroller 20+
John Moonstroller 20+
Brian, this is not a verbal, real time discussion. Your turn happens when you hit the Return key. Don't use real world excuses for vurtual realities. It's like cussing.... sometime we all stumble with words in reality but to imply that when you wrte a cuss word that your fingers are somehow forcing you to sumble and write the word is prepostours to the reasonable mind. Being pretentious! no that is a something we can talk about in the vurtual world because most people preactice it everyday when they use the keyboard.
In all things Brian....... you are what you do. Don't let your fingers do your talking. Use your brain. I appreciate the thumbs up you gave me and my argument was sound, I thought. If it's a problem for Steven Hawkins I'm positive it should be a problem for Brian Klink, unless, of course, you think you have the potential to yank him out of Newtons chair and take his place. Well.... Brian..... do ya? < just joking and being pretentious Brian.... :)
I've been in the computer world since 1977. How long have you been around? You should join my forum. You have potential. my email is: rexrino@moonstroller.com
Perhaps you need to get back into the real world before your mind melts in this virtual reality which is real for idea and information but unreal if your a human being.
Colleen Steen 500+
John Moonstroller 20+
It failed. Look around you. Where are the experts, the professionals, who were to collude with us and help expand our knowledge? When was the last time you posted with one of those individuals? All there is is you, me and the others we blog with everyday. We get bored and we jump on one another. TED is just another bog with interesting eye candy.
Where is TED in the schools? They don't allow outside interference with the school system. TED is considered by Conservative organizations as a Liberal haven and don't want their children exposed to it. Why?
Because the Atheist demons abound there. For TED to be successful it will have to not allow conversations and blogs and become more like Wikipedia. If you go to Wikipedia, you can participate in the religious arguments with others, in a more private setting, where your personal opinion don't end up in a advertisement industry data base. You actually meet real people there and you can have an impact on the knowledge base that is being distributed to the world. It's a fun place. I'm just tired and thought I'd try TED to see what they offer.
The only contribution I can offer to these themes is the words of Steven Hawkins. He said science can't prove, God is or God is not most of the other top Scientists agree with Hawkins.. End of story
Of all the people you and I blog with everyday, who is so attuned they can disprove Hawkins and the other scientist?
Not me. Not you. Not anyone I've conversed with so far. It's just not worth the hurt and damage it causes and we are having no affect at all.
Andres Aullet 10+
I always take what i call the "blue whale approach": those giants filter through hundreds and hundreds of tons of seawater to eat a creature smaller than the shrimp you and I eat in a seafood dish.
And yet, they get to be not only the biggest creature in the sea, but the biggest animal, period.
Yes, if only we had one millionth of that patience, we could end up growing a bit too.
Read comments, write comments, smile, get polemical, and every now and then, we'll learn a bit or two and find one of those long lost relatives
I assure you, it's worth the trip
cheers man
John Dunbar 10+
John Moonstroller 20+
I'm going to tell you something that was told to me at a business meeting when I suggested we go to the local college and recruit some new employees for the special type of project we were working on.
You are different from the rest of the litter. You have a special perspective and ability to see through the fog that can't be learned in school. It's unique to your DNA, the way you were raise and what things you allowed your curiosity to explore.
Your not like the other guys Brain You can't teach Brian in school and turn them out in packages or in bulk. So, trying teaching people these ideas can be a big wast of time, your time. Pick those who you think have the ability to understand and forget the rest.
The ideas of religion is not an insane idea. It's a notion of the minds desire to symbolize things it doesn't understand. As a naturally curious individual, you will be confronted with this mind symbol the rest of your life. I have found it is better to establish some kind of dialog with religious folk and some degree of tolerance in order to not be heavily burdened by their organized belief system.
Such as: how do you deal with a large population of Muslims who don't like the video that pokes fun at their religion? Simple...... don't make the video.
This is just a hint to the wise. ;}
Jamie Cullen
Can everything that happens on Earth happen by chance? I don't know. I'm fine with the idea of life having developed by chance, and think it makes more sense to believe that than to invent an answer so as to avoid uncertainty, i.e. God. What has happened here, I feel, is humans, as opposed to all other life on Earth that we know of, have developed big brains and begun to question their existence. The easy thing to do, is to say that there is a creator, a reason, a 'purpose', and all the mystery and wonder and uncertainty is gone. I think that when everything is taken in perspective, the more honest and defensible and, dare I say it, the more daring thing to do is to put oneself out there and say, "There's no reason to invent a God. I am brave enough to stand upon the precipice of my own existence, to answer to myself, to take the uncertainty and the drama and the harshness, to take this burdensome, glorious and beautiful thing that is life and bleed and love and die in all its brief fury." To imply that beauty can be appreciated and worth be gotten from life only when one is living for God, with a belief in God, is insulting. It's insulting to me, to animals, to the universe even. Take animals for example. They never contemplate their existence, so thereby have no reason to live? Have you seen the joy of a dog chasing a ball, a lion chasing a zebra, an eagle in flight above the highest mountain? There is beauty in the universe, and that beauty continues to exist in and of itself, in life, in rocks and molecules and empty space and all that there is, regardless of the pace at which it moves, regardless of the observer or lack of an observer, regardless of the existence or non-existence of god(s).
Colleen Steen 500+
Jamie Cullen
1. There are so many different religions, with so many different beliefs and gods and customs, they can't all be correct in asserting their god(s) and customs as the correct ones. It seems equally unlikely that just one is correct, and the others all wrong.
2. The fact that most religions attribute some special importance to humans for me is enough reason to conclude that they are simply a product of human invention and have no relation to truth or reality. Perspective is important here to understand my point: humans have been around for roughly 1/1500 the time that the Earth has been around. Yet, in most religions their image of god bears some resemblance to a human? Why not a single-cell organism of some kind? To me this seems ludicrous and almost upsettingly anthropocentric, and at the same time a clear indication that God is an invention of ours.
Colleen Steen 500+
John Moonstroller 20+
I don't know. There's the way it is.... and the way it should be.
Is God real?
If there is an eternity of possibilities, that means that we cannot put all our knowledge of this subject under the bell curve because there is no set of data that can accumulate in one spot long enough to find the normal coordinates.
That still leaves the possibility, not probability, that God is possible.
If eternity exists.
If in the beginning there was nothing there would be nothing still, having nothing to alter that situation with. Ergo, something has always existed. Ergo eternity is real.
Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+
The random chemical argument has been demonstrated in laboratory in this earth. Please check Miller-Urey experiment.
'That still leaves the possibility, not probability, that God is possible.' As argument this is lame. You may like to check Russel's Teapot.
John Moonstroller 20+
I was just throwing that out to grab everyone's attention to the fact that scientific truth is an ongoing affair, and can't be used to settle the question of Is God or Is God not.
I am currently very well updated on the frontier of Genetic understanding and what I don't know I can always ask Theodore A. Hoppe.
Thanks for your lame and unending circular contribution to this question. Now,we are both lame... I hope you are happy. :)
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John Moonstroller 20+
I'm done with you sir. I will not answer any more of your sentiments. What this site needs, for clarity, is an ignore user button that clears the conversation of clutter. I like the Newest first and oldest first functions but they still don't give the clarity of the conversation I need. I will suggest this to TED just as I suggest they install an edit/delet function.
Colleen Steen 500+
"TED is dead colleen. It always was... just an experiment."
Gabo Moreno 100+
:)
Don Wesley 50+
To the only real Question asked,
Is that design is apparent,
And understood better by Science than Philosophy and History lessons
Where did design originate?
Everyone seems to be “fighting” for control of the Debate,
And Confusion is the result.
So here on TED we seen a tiny lesson,
About how the world is being used up,
By people who insist they have free wills,
And totally conscious reasoning.
Why all the “fighting”
Give me hope that the Designer will eventually be listened to,
And clear up the Confusion.
My intent was to reveal what brighter minds outside, have to offer.
I did the best I could in this situation,
And await another call to help.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
And who designed your designer.
Strange how you can accept an inexplicable designer but not natural proceeses.
Don Wesley 50+
I do prefer the designed and the orderly peace; where I can hear music.
I am going to sit in the shade of the tree where the fishing is good.
Maybe I will see a fisherman like John moonstroller working with what has been designed
Have a good day in confusion!
Obey No1kinobe 50+
John Moonstroller 20+
Don Wesley 50+
to put on thier thinking hats and stop fighting.
There many problems to solve.
Help clear up confusion and not sell a book of lessons.
John Moonstroller 20+
How's it going Don. :)
Don Wesley 50+
You already knew the answer.
I was just sitting in the shade and watching you fishing.
Where are fishing tomorrow.!
Don Wesley 50+
With all its guiding tools.
I look up.
In the light of day, I see the human confusion,
And that is the better time to sleep.
And so in the day, I sleep and do most of my best,
Uninterrupted reasoning.
In the military, as I young officer
I learned to move in the night, with the best prepared map.
The enemy is asleep and I have covered myself with black.
It is really cool.
Roy Bourque 20+
There are many creation myths. I believe that Genesis is just another one. In none of these creation myths does it say HOW God created anything. Nor do they tell you ANYTHING verifiable about God. Religion says that God is good. If that were true, then we have a lot of bad by this good God. Religion says that bad is the result of the devil. But if God is omnipotent, then God allows it all to happen. Where is the virtue in that?
I was raised as a Catholic. My parents believed in purgatory. They wanted me to be the perfect child so I wouldn't have to suffer in purgatory. My childhood was a nightmare.
Today, we have many people who believe in God who would just as soon you were dead so there would be more for them to enjoy. Do you think that their belief in God is any less real than yours?
You say without God (in whatever name), how could you live? You'd have no direction or paths. Since I was born, I have found no store or any item in them that was created by the being that you call God. Even food can be explained by ecology. I didn't find my profession in a church, and unless you are a minister, neither did you. Your profile says that you are passionate about technology. How is God responsible for technology? I found my paths in modern education. What other paths are there?
In what points is God's knowledge better than ours?
What is your reason for living if it isn't for the betterment of the people?
What makes it difficult for you to not believe in God?
Before you answer, you may want to look at my profile. I am not an atheist. But I came close to being one, and what I wrote in my comment are the reasons why.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
For believers to assume what a god says via scripture or dogma or the pope/authority says is moral and good by definition is a totally circular argument.
This not explain why these pronouncements are good. God says so is not a satisfactory explanation.
Why is it okay if your god says kill homosexuals but not okay if someone else's says kill infidels?
A morality based on reducing human suffering, increasing happiness/wellbeing and improving the human condition is so much more elegant. And it is based on somethings we know are true and real and reasonable - that sentient beings exist, that joy is preferable to needless suffering.
Roy Bourque 20+
These are all very good points. They need to be addressed by the church if the church wants to survive.
The church has dictated much of what people are supposed to believe without explanation. They chose what books would go into their "Word of God". They rebuked spiritual gifts as the work of the devil. They were a very condemning lot. It came down to having to make a choice between evolution and creation. The evidence of evolution could be presented. The evidence of a God creating could not be. The church did not consider the evidence of evolution when I was growing up. And the pains of suffering in hell verses the joys of eternal happiness in heaven were the only driving forces for accepting the church over science. Once you see through that, science is the only logical choice. Science was growing. Science was producing results. Science was providing answers that made sense. I could understand science. I couldn't understand what the church was doing. If I had to make a choice, it didn't take rocket science to figure out which one to go with. Although science did offer rocket science if you wanted to know.
Jimmy Strobl 30+
In my case I don't believe since there's no reason to, It's as simple as that.
furthermore I'd like to end with a quote
"Science adjusts it's views based on whats observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so the belief can be preserved" - Tim Minchin
John Moonstroller 20+
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John Moonstroller 20+
John Moonstroller 20+
I don't read Minchin. I read John_Moonstroller. For some reason his world make better sense to me, I suppose because I'm so close and kindired in his thoughts and undersatndings.
Minchin said: "Faith is the denial of observation so the belief can be preserved" - Tim Minchin
Gabo there are two extreames in this God issue. The ones on the right:' We don't believe in God", and the ones on the left: "God is all there is".
Neither side can scientifically prove the other side is wrong. So they pound it out with analogy's, metaphorical reasoning, hoping that one of the rocks will land on the other side and hit someone in the head, bringing them to reason.
Just down the street where away from where this obscene war is taking place, is place of calm where people share ideas about their differences with respect and calm. We call those people. Open minded and reasonable.
They are in the middle and treat all ideas with respect, weighing their potential and descriptively filing them away in their minds without upsetting the originator of the idea. They turn and smile.
Is it pretentious? Yes it is. But it's a harmless form of pretentiousness. Kinda like a white lie. :)
I have to tell you the truth. I've gotten more knowledge from watching Forest Gump then I have from reading the comments in this conversation.
Jimmy Strobl 30+
Can you prove to me once and for all the the "Flying Spaghetti Monster" doesn't exist? How would you refute this preposterous thesis? You see you can't do that, it's impossible to "disprove" something that has yet to be proved... And you (or your community, or any religion for that matter) have still failed to do so (your scriptures aren't proof they're hear-say stories past down and altered along the way)...
Get started on the basic understanding of the burden of proof by clicking on the link ;-) http://lmgtfy.com/?q=burden+of+proof
John Moonstroller 20+
I'm sixty years old and haven't seen him come around yet. But, I haven't' been to mars either or Lithuania for that matter.
There is much I haven't seen in this short life.
I'll probably never see it all but, my reasonable mind, knowing and understanding the vastness of realty, isn't going to wash aware possibilities just because I haven't seen it. In sixty years, I've yet to see anyone who has. But, I have spoken to people who have witnessed miracles.
Were those miracles real? To them they were and I'm not the type of self-centered know it all to try to make them believe otherwise. It doesn't affect my life. It's a small thing. Something that shouldn't bother a big mind. Be sides, I've seen miracles myself.
Things that are unexplainable by any means of science the defy my understanding of Physics and science. What am I to do? Pretend it didn't happen? That would be pretentious, something I am not.
Can you:)
The link you posted is cute.... that's about all it conveys. When you grow up and become a man, you will put away such childish behavior and take a manly course through life and discover many things. Until then, your just a child. Have some respect for your elders. What they know could keep you alive in hard times, and, son, there are had time coming for your generation. You should be preparing. Can you garden? Can yo saw a tree with a manual crosscut saw? Have you ever tried it? Could you watch your child grow hotter and hotter with fever and then die what you look on helplessly? These were the trials of your forefathers, who turned to God when science let them down.
I was a combat warrior for Vietnam. I can assure you, there are no Atheists in Foxholes when the mortars start landing close to your hole in the ground.
Colleen Steen 500+
Andres Aullet 10+
Many religion vs. science discussions start because people confuse the definition of "facts" as in the courtroom evidence, with "data" as collected during a scientific experiment, and theory (as a courtroom speculation) with a scientific theory (like the well established theory of general relativity) which helps make predictions that can later be compared to "data" as many times as desired or physically possible
cheers
Gabo Moreno 100+
The burden of proof is also the philosophically obvious point. If somebody claims that there's a god, then it is that person's burden of proof to show that such a thing is there, not for others to prove the negative. This is logic, not courts. This logic applies to science just as much. Otherwise we would have tons of fantasy in the field helping understand nothing at all. After all, we can make claims about things and they would have to accept them even if the proponent did not show any evidence for the claim.
Do you see the problem? Not courts, simple, straightforward logic. The burden of proof lies in the one making the claim for the existence of something, not in the one who prefers to hold verdict (metaphorically speaking) until shown some evidence.
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John Moonstroller 20+
You state: "For evidence that "God" does not exist (if you asked the proper person, one who has told you that "God" does not exist), you have to define which of all gods ever invented, believed to exist, you are talking about. For example, some are nonsensical, thus positively nonexistent."
I say there are no rules in this game and if you can't handle that Lower your tone. I'm never messy. I'm usually clear and concise. I do notice you post is bloated with conflicting ideals and nonexistent notions about rules that do not exist and wavers a bit off the main message.
Jimmy Strobl 30+
John Moonstroller 20+
I don't see the connection to the short remark you made the video you pointed me too. The video was a waste of my time.
Just for fun, why don't you elaborate a bit on what it is you are implying Jimmy. Help me dispell my confusion on the thang..... :)
Gabo Moreno 100+
I enjoyed it.
:)
Jimmy Strobl 30+
Jimmy Strobl 30+
The song kind of points to many religious mindsets which we find hilarious and very sad at the same time. At least that's how I interpret it...
Don Wesley 50+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXtVBJDPs6k&feature=endscreen&NR=1
This was sent to me, Don Wesley by Elizabeth Gu 9/19/12
http://www.ted.com/conversations/13834/when_does_a_conversation_becom.html?c=535666
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“The sound
The look
The touch
The movement
The magical view of soul
My feelings now
Wow.
What love can do!
When we see this much; but not all
I am seeing the love maker
The perfect One.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don Wesley 50+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXtVBJDPs6k&feature=endscreen&NR=1
This was sent to me, Don Wesley by Elizabeth Gu 9/19/12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“The sound
The look
The touch
The movement
The magical view of soul
My feelings now
Wow.
What love can do!
When we see this much; but not all
I am seeing the love maker
The perfect One.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Moonstroller 20+
In fact......... I think I will.
:)
Shaheem Carter
Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+
If I am not very mistaken the heart of Sam's argument is that morality can very well grow without necessarily accepting God as the epitome of absolute good. It can grow from science or scientific reasoning as well. As a corollary he also postulates that there is no such thing as free will.
We can debate on his argument but I am not clear how Arthur poses the question with reference to Sam's stand. However, I am open to his points, if he chooses to place those.
Otherwise, God debate does not interest me anymore.
Colleen Steen 500+
Acceptance of a god and religion has not proven to be the epitome of absolute good, and in fact, has caused chaos, unrest, abuse and violation of human rights in our world, more often than not.
It would be great to have the facilitator pop in to clarify his intent.
John Moonstroller 20+
natasha nikulina 50+
chen xin
while it is very nice to share it with you. it is really a helper thanks for TED thanks for your time!
Colleen Steen 500+
You are exploring, learning about yourself and others....I LOVE it! It is a good reminder for all of us Chen.....thank you for sharing yourself with us:>)
What are you scared of?
chen xin
i totally agree with you that never label yourself.
i think we all should live a life of ourselves.
i will tell a story of myself
last year.when i came back to school .you know schoollife is not always happy .yes i have a new clssmate..and also we live in the same dormitory. we are different very much .i think i am a student of learning.i like reading books .see some news.and do something outdoors .while he is a person that a how to say maybe is 'nothing to do '' every day he gets up then play the computer game all day long. he just sit still ,never talk or say something and also he likes to play it very late .when we get sleep ,he then go to take a shower.and then he use his hair drier.you know it makes a lot of noise.i am very angry but i can say nothing .i fear we may break up ..day by day. finally i can not bear .i talk to him.but hopelessly he madenothing.he did it as ususl.
finally we broke up.i know he has many friends .they like to play cards and drink..sometimes do some thing togther.while i am quiet..i like read myself .and do myself..so next something even horrorable happen .that my students think that it is my fault...they say something bad to me . you konw what a shock to me !these day i even do not trust myself sometimes i even think that all i do is not right .what he does is right ..so i just do as him every day very late to sleep.and do something bad.but you know it is not so easy to change from this state to that..so sometimes i do not know what i am doing ...classmates always say i am a female..and act like a deliration..these day i am hopeless and i think i am silly i label myself....very hurt.sometimes i just want to kill myself..because i can not see the future ..i can not go home to talk with my mother i can not say to my friend .they may joke me ...it is a mare
thanks to a winter holliday i go back ..i may not face my students .i can think it over where is the problem .gradually i come back to
Colleen Steen 500+
You are not hopeless....believe that. Remember what we were talking about on another thread? Know yourself, and it sounds like you are exploring what you want and need, so that is good. Hang in there my friend, and keep communicating here on TED....will you do that? You do not need to have all the answers for the future right now. Try taking one step at a time, and continue to communicate.....can you do that?
chen xin
Colleen Steen 500+
Don Wesley 50+
I hope you enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efQZhDdIdRI&feature=relmfu
UO Today Show #379 George Lakoff
John Dunbar 10+
Yet if free will doesn't exist then how can god hold us responsible for sins we committed which were more a product of experience, brain structure, and genetics? If you believe what professor Lakoff claims to be true and i'm assuming you do based on your insistent promotion of his findings, then where does that leave theists? If God is to torture me in hell for not believing in his son, Jesus christ, and this was not a conscious choice then wouldn't this make God a cruel and sadistic being?
Don Wesley 50+
I am pleased to hear from you again.
Please remember that the total of my argument is, the sum of Lakoff’s lectures plus The Virginia Debate plus The Sounds of Silence. I could not put forward a better argument myself.
Now I can offer some remark on what you have added.
You watched Lakoff “interview.” His “lectures” gave us the history of his collaborative studies; revealing much more evidence than his narrative – the interview.
Yes the free will is most absent as I understand.
Now add Lakoff’s evidence to the argument that Torres makes in Virginia.
The choice becomes evident at the end.
All of your remaining questions have been answered. We are in a horrible mess and all religions have to account.
However this debate is about God and not Jesus. Torres addressed that issue and is prepared to defend that in a separate argument.
I do believe Torres successfully changed the nature this old debate about God, by introducing his knowledge of the theory of the Big-Bang.
I am very happy to see the idea moral behavior [“right and reason”] being created by molecules in everyone's head, takes huge amount faith to believe in a Godless society. But please don’t expect me to rebut your extended replies. I am just pleased with what our tiny TED conversation has already revealed. Just maybe the Idea will have Legs.
Thank you Brian for adding more to this debate; my contribution cup is now empty. I will use it to collect the blood that is running from my wounds.
I am smiling without a breath of malevolence.
My intention is to make us happy. Lakoff reveals that it is starting work, but a heavy job is yet to be done. We need more conversation and honest media. It took many years of science to convince the world about the sun.
Love, Don.
John Moonstroller 20+
When you reach an intersection in your life where you have to make a decision, somehow the state of the universe is such that you will make a decision that is available to you because of the state. There will be no other options so you don't really have free will, just the opportunity to choose a path to follow.
The paths are already laid out with their own little nooks and crannies.
What Stevens was trying to say, I guess, is that the decision you made is the one you would have made under the same circumstances. Your just following your destiny line or path in a universe which already knows which path you will take.
Or something like that. :)
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Sounds of Silence. Not sure what you get from the Lyrics. My best guess is its about our inability to communicate with each other. Not sure how this is pro theist.
Lakkoff. Not sure how this is pro theist.
Re the debate which arguments did you consider slam dunk? I've seen and heard many similar debates and never heard a compelling argument for the existence of god as anything more than a possibility, although the quality of debaters varies.
Don Wesley 50+
Professor Lakoff's work makes it “very easy” to predict how [those commenting, in this debate and not arguing] will vote.
For me, I get it [understand] all! With or without glasses. It is not a big deal to understand if you have had some prior education. And if there is brain damage with a loss of emotion, then one can't even reason; this again is from Lakoff's lectures.
And have a nice evening too,
Don
John Dunbar 10+
Obey No1kinobe 50+
It seems you have latched onto some mind science or opinion to explain atheist views. I suggest the same applies to theists. Even with our human failings I suggest the question of whether there is sufficient reason or evidence to believe in any god claims is something we can muddle through.
I've been on both sides and atheism seems the most sound position to me on whether believe in mostly invisible and intangible beings that no one can agree on because they are virtually non existent but are useful placeholders for addressing the unknown without actually answering any questions - god did it, but don't know how or even what god is, or how god got to exist etc etc. Argument from ignorance and special pleading.
I don't know if there are gods or faeries. But I have not come across anything that reasonably indicates their existence, and especially their intervention in human affairs.
I hope you can make a clearer argument. Until then have a Good day.
John Moonstroller 20+
Brian said: "Don, I have had some prior education, I'm sure obey has too."
Gee obey. I didn't realize you and Brian were such mates...... and you have education too? :)
You make some good arguments for the Atheist side of things. But deep down, you know there is no proof either way. A man lives in the Shara all his life and never sees rain Doesn't mean rain doesn't exist... just means he's never seen it.
Speaking of.... how's the weather down under?
Obey No1kinobe 50+
But i have seen enough to realise ist is very unlikely that any specific religion the absolute truth.
Best guess is religious experince is just in our minds but i dont know.
That is why i dont belive. Part of it any way.
I hope im not claiming to know things i dont have reasonable support for.
I also think u can have a non supernatural trancendent life.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Hope u have a good day too jm
Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+
I can see and know too that for everything to happen in the world, chance plays a big part. I am not sure if that draws God question into life.
The direction in life does neither seem to involve God, a particular God that is, to me. Spirituality, yes, but not God. I can pretty well live with sufficient peace, joy, enlightenment and more basic issues of life without ever believing in God. If that earns me a name 'atheist', well, I do not need it to write pay cheques.
Strangely, correct me if I am wrong, your question excludes billions of living beings on earth because we humans are self declared sentient beings.
I find it very easy, almost normal, NOT to believe in God.
Colleen Steen 500+
As you may know, I do not label myself either, and after extensive study, research and practices, it also seems very natural and normal to NOT believe in a God(s).
I believe some folks use God and religion as a valuable life guide, and some folks....not so much. If God's impact, or message is some of what we're seeing on this conversation thread, I am happy and content to NOT be a believer.
Pabitra Mukhopadhyay 30+
It's a free world as far as what we choose to believe and get inspiration from. It's just pointless trying to impose my kind of belief on others. Moreover, my belief does not make me inherently good, my action does.
I am a bit at a loss to see the question with reference to Sam Harris's talk. I thought Sam tried to make a point about morality (the innate sense of good and bad) being independent of religion (and God, arguably).
Colleen Steen 500+
I agree with you that it is not what we believe in that makes us good or not so good....it is how we use the information of our beliefs in our daily lives.
The discussion question was framed rather oddly, and I also perceive Sam Harris to clearly seperate science from religion or god.
I believe many people may get moral ideas from a religion, or a belief in a god, then it is a question of how many of those people actually live what they preach. My personal belief is that we can use all available information to learn, grow and evolve as humans. If some choose to depend on, and trust information provided by a religion, that's ok, AS LONG AS they do not try to impose that belief on others, or use that belief to abuse or violate the human rights of others. If some folks choose to get information only from science, that's ok too, AS LONG AS they do not try to impose their beliefs on others. We need to learn to accept others and different beliefs, if we are ever going to experience peace in our world.
I am not advocating behaviors that are not useful to the whole of humankind....only beliefs. Behaviors that suppress, abuse, or attempt to take away the rights of others need to be addressed by our global community.
Don Wesley 50+
Well Colleen, I just returned from a good meal and a nice conversation in a local eatery,
where the motto is "We care enough about you, to make you happy."
Many people there know me very well and are not inclined to lie. I showed them what you wrote to me in this conversation hours ago, which I quote here:
“I think you are shouting out your own emotions Don, and giving yourself thumbs up with another account.”
I also showed them the “thumbs-up” sender evidence including the time sent. He the sender lives a few hundred miles south of you on the coast. He is a gentleman and cares enough to make me happy. I will ask his permission to allow me to reveal his name at a time and in an appropriate setting.
You on the other hand “reached out and “grasped my identity” and slandered me [with intent] as “your” victim. You have committed a crime, and I am thinking.
I will also say that emotions are there to reveal and communicate, noisy or silent. Righteous anger is also to be revealed.
You have boasted that you are a professional actor. As an actor you can display [put on masks] to communicate as a truth, that which you know is a lie. You are quite good at it. However I knew the moment you climbed on stage that you were an actor.
I knew, not to let your reach to me, become a grasp. But you sit waiting for every opportunity. But, be aware God is within me and his power is awesome. There is civil law and criminal law and laws of faith. I have choices to make. I am very inclined to let the laws of Faith decide.
Good night Colleen.
Peace and all the best to you and until soon.
Don Wesley [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
Andres Aullet 10+
I would be interested to read what you have to say on this discussion... I went through the whole conversation but I could not see your comments anywhere.
Sometimes this same topic becomes a battlefield, as many have pointed out. I for one certainly do not enjoy that kind of battlefield discussion, and would rather discuss the topic in a friendly way, able to learn and try to convey my point of view respectfully.
Why do you think atheists don't believe in god? (and if you allow me to pick on the last sentence in the question, it's really not all that difficult!)
cheers.
Don Wesley 50+
Debates can be controlled and be very productive. Words on the other hand reach deep into the hidden protecting frames, below the control of a conscious mind. They release the un-bridled emotions of the unaware sender. They are recipes from the past childhood days and culture with either a nurturing father or an authoritarian father. Therein lies the difference between Atheism as highlighted in the question and God!
People get very angry when they feel their belief foundation is being attacked. Especially those whose fathers were authoritarian in the past 150 years. Go and see what the University of Virginia debate reveals; you maybe very surprised.
Peace and all the best to you and until soon .
Don Wesley [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
Andres Aullet 10+
I must agree with you, that our words not only convey our thoughts, but have embedded our feelings and subconscious background. As i have said before, the way we say something or ask a question reveals a lot about us as a person.
Yes, people have a natural reaction when they feel their belief foundations under attack, having done a bit of research on that, I think it is because of cognitive dissonance... that uncomfortable feeling we get when we begin discovering that something we previously believed to be true, may not be exactly the way we thought.
But different people react differently to cognitive dissonance. Some simply walk out to avoid receiving more information on the contended point of view... Some discard any alternative, fiercely attacking anybody who thinks differently. I must say that the scientific community has an advantage, as it lives with cognitive dissonance all the time. Even the most cherished ideas in science are put to test with differing alternatives all the time. I think there lies the secret. We must learn to control our subconscious (that unpleasant feeling when the dissonance is realized) and must be able to live our lives knowing that a different version of the truth might be out there. It takes some practice, but it has been done for a few hundred years successfully
Someone mentioned that to be an atheist you need have considered god at some point. There is some truth there, at least in my case. But i don't think that qualifies as proof of existence
cheers
Don Wesley 50+
I am pleased finding you responded to my appeal to get, the beautiful knowledge from the Virginia Debate. You certainly are quick in providing us with beautiful and wise feedback.
I find this debate is an excellent lesson, towards understanding trustable debating with a “ton’ of revealing and honest emotions.
Even a more remarkable new knowledge is coolly revealed in Professor Lakoff’s Lecture.
This lecture of almost two hours is astounding because it conveys a life time of Cognitive Neural Science; describing what we need to know, right this moment.
We find out from George, and his many gifted collaborators, that what we are believing about logical and rational thinking is leading us away from the truth that we all hunger for. Our thinking we find out, is not conscious thinking at all; this is his cool and yet compelling message. To realize that we just don’t have what we think is “Critical Thinking Minds; wow!. He delivers his message, with kindness and a true happy smile.
George reveals to us how the messages we received thru the media are crafted in way unknown to us. When what we hope for, are leaders, we can trust and who are highly skilled to solve the many complex problems that will face us. We need leaders we can trust to tell the truth and not simply go thru a laundry list of issues. I want debates to reveal truth, even if the debate triggers hot emotions. Do emotions reveal more than facts! I feel they do
I am looking forward to hear from you again. What George and his associates have found for humanity is worthy of Nobel Prize consideration. Professor Lakoff, University California – Berkley.
A very big thank you Andres
Don
Jon Ho
And now my question to you is, why do YOU believe in God? I tried looking for clouds with Allah or Yahweh signature since I was an egg, still haven't found one. Is He busy or something? Having a hard time trying to fight off Satan? But I'm still alive, enjoying life and everything that comes with it, especially the touchy feely stuff. All the sadness, melancholy, the feelings of relief, anger, and happiness. I have made it my -goal, direction, path - to experience as much of these feelings as possible, good or bad.
Now I'm not trying to hurt YOUR feelings, but.... until I see God write something like "Hey Jon Ho, I'm Yahweh/ Allah /Buddha /Tom Cruise, and I approve of this cloud, signed - Your God" using his cloud pen, I will have to say no.
And don't give me that bullshit about God being too busy fighting Satan to spend 10 seconds for a single human. Or even worse, God works in mysterious ways and my human brains can't begin to understand how stuff works because seriously, that God is a failure if He can't explain the universe in simple terms to a human. I mean even Einstein can explain E=mc², and the God who works in mysterious ways couldn't? Epic Fail-Boat!