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Consciousness is the abnormal state of a living organism. "Sleeping" (unconsciousness) is the normal state.
In consolidating ideas from various disciplines (evolution, biology, psychology, etc) I had to ask myself, "What is the REASON consciousness exists?" The question originated after I had read a proposal that from an evolutionary standpoint, "sleep" was counter-intuitive as a trait that should survive in an evolving organism. While sleeping (unconscious) an organism is at more risk to danger, for instance from predatory attack. So why would "the need to sleep" have survived an evolutionary process? Wouldn't "constant consciousness" have been a more survivable trait to expect to evolve?
After considerable thought, it seems that consciousness (and the level of it) may have evolved dependant on an organism's need to be "mobile" in it's environment, in order to meet the two basic needs of any organism,,,acquire nutrients to ensure it's own future survival (it needs to "eat"), and to reproduce to ensure the continuation of it's species (it needs to "mate"). It appears to me the more complex the organism has evolved, the more mobile it may need to be to accomplish these two things within it's environment. And a higher level of consciousness it may need to successfully move about within it's environment.
But once it has accomplished these two goals, a return to an unconscious state makes sense...it is the least energy consuming state of an organism. Being conscious and moving around expends much more energy and would not be the preferred state of an organism. Thus, "sleep"...the return to the unconscious "normal" state, would not have been eliminated by evolution. It is the state where the organism can repair itself from any "damage" incurred during consciouness, and then maintain itself at the lowest energy consumption level until the need exits to "eat" or reproduce becomes dominant again, at which point it returns to the abnormal state of consciousness to accomplish those things. The cycle then continues.
Consciousness is the abnormal state.
elizabeth muncey 10+
elizabeth muncey 10+
Adriaan Braam 20+
I hope it will give some ideas that might make sense of consciousness as it relates to humans and so how it relates to animals. Basically, many people eat a lot and often. That does not mean eating is normal and not eating is abnormal. Same with sleep although we need both.
http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/documents/TheHumanMind.pdf
elizabeth muncey 10+
elizabeth muncey 10+
elizabeth muncey 10+
elizabeth muncey 10+
03:00 hours here so must get some sleep but not taking ball home, leaving it with you to play with. Rick. Mitch and Don and anyone else. Rick (Checkov), Mitch (Scotty), Don (Dr. McCoy) Me (Spock), TED (Uhura). Just looking for a captain and a navigator (Sulu). James Zhang where are you ?
elizabeth muncey 10+
Creation = positive energy, postive intelligence, postive intererst and positive rest
Dreams come from the memory and the processing of the informatioin of the day plus speculation about what might be. That is why hope and faith and gratitude are so important plus a leader or an idea for creativity.
Nightmares come from negativity because there are no dreams, little sleep, no nourishment and no hope.
My deep love is for people and their environment Don. Just working on getting the evidence for my skills and knowledge.
G'day sports - who wants to play ball ?
elizabeth muncey 10+
Thank you to Mitch for teasing me and Don for being my guiding star.
Rick does this help ? What would you put in as Creation = EIIR. Could substitute Intelligence for Focus and Interest with idea. Could say Leadership = Faith Hope Charity and the support of the people is that rignt Mr. Obamna.
Suggest Leadership actually Logic, Communication, Humanity, Technology and Teamwork, just like the helm of the Starship Enterprise. Maybe Creation = Enterprise, Initiative, Ideas and Results.
Look I've brought the football, who wants to play ? .
elizabeth muncey 10+
Don Wesley 50+
I am really Ok; full of energy and power and going everywhere in my great automobile.
If I have any worry at all, it is to have to live a life of “Job”, until I am 140 years old.
I am smiling while I say this for you.
The only over whelming need I have, is to deliver “Kindness.” When I cannot do so, I feel the weight of loneliness. I turn immediately to my Father Above, who assures me of his love and tells me to get back to loving here on earth. Too overcome man-made [avoidable] suffering and make heaven here on earth, it is our job to deliver kindness. It is his best command to us. It is just that child-like simple. Take look at a “Kindness Picture,” at my web-site here: http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2011/05/look-of-kindness-in-action.html
My friend, Victor, of over seventy years who lives in San Francisco, sent me this picture of his grandson. If I were to tell of story his grandson, you would have trouble holding back your tears.
Unfortunately the “Belief System of Kindness,” is pushed aside by other frames of belief-systems demands; demands that are deeply hidden from our conscious mind within our brains. They are the “power of shame.”
In a somewhat mysterious way, you sound like my wife Denise. [she is lost somewhere]
Her story also, is one where she, like you said, and I quote “I was a bit more independent and wanted to make my own design.” I think it was her ‘need to follow ones self’ that had her father get very angry with her. She didn't obey his commands, she was stubborn. For me, that quality [to follow ones self] is precious, and is what I loved in her; she and I were “Soul-Mates.”
Her fathers anger is, what made her “A child of Rage” a very dangerous personality, deceptive and cute, who steals and has the intent to kill those who try to restrain her. Go to YouTube and see the psychology of “A child of Rage”
See continuing reply next
Don Wesley 50+
You and I and Mitch have delved deep into the unbelievable hidden powers of our “brain.”
Therein is why “to follow ones self” and be true to ones-self is the ultimate question of life. Very few people get there. And repeat my personal declaration; a fact.
Too many think we have chosen our “belief system with sound “reason.” The science of today reveals we don’t even know what hidden memories of our minds determine what we believe.
My own mind, today, wrote its poem and I ask you to see it here: http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2012/09/in-corners-of-our-minds-hidden-memories.html
For the moment I will stop here. This is very precious message He has told me to deliver to you.
If I were with you I would hold you like a little angel. [Denise my wife told me I was her Teddy Bear; the kindest man she ever knew.] I declare this statement to be true. So my declaration is a fact!
All the best and until soon,
Don [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
Mitch SMith 50+
The last defence on the ramparts of enlightenment is
insight.
elizabeth muncey 10+
Don Wesley 50+
Do you live in London or NZ?
All the best and until soon,
Don
elizabeth muncey 10+
Don Wesley 50+
I have the “feeling” that your “conscious mind” is working hard to push aside a story of love deep within you.
Let it flow is my leap out of logic.
Get more sleep not less, and flow.
Here are some that flowed out without reason and logic
http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2012/07/to-create-what-intuition-reveals.html
http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2012/06/i-trusted-my-wife-and-she-betrayed-me-i.html
http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2012/05/heaven-rather-hell-is-most-valuable.html
http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2012/04/answer-to-my-grandson-tristan.html
http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2012/05/christopher-john-wesley-my-first-son.html
http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2012/08/i-am-thinking-aloud-ok-at-least-i-am.html
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/arianna_huffington_how_to_succeed_get_more_sleep.html
http://blog.ted.com/2010/09/15/how-to-sleep-jessa-gamble-on-ted-com/
All the best and until soon,
Don Wesley [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
natasha nikulina 50+
judging from your comment " Thanks all. I've been reading all the replies......" your questions are : How ? and Why ? If humans are chosen , why we are chosen and who decides ?
I think there is no reasonable explanation for that , in this realm logic and language break down.
We have a strong intuition for a free will, but we don't know how we exercise it; it is the 'below' level and so is above. Somehow the act of choice the result of choice and the chooser are ONE.
Something like this :)
Ed Schulte 50+
well I trust that eventually all HUmans will be EXtra-ordinary and accept none other......in the meantime .......I too went the night route in every respect.......and will never do other......and one of the important expressions learned was not about going after the "Out there" learning but one by way of the Sufi "everything you will ever need to know is right there.......on the back of your eyelids."
Ed Schulte 50+
gets up to speed with HeresX3Magesty ...up to where "but things in Cosmos are by Cosmos" is Self Evident
elizabeth muncey 10+
Ed Schulte 50+
well I trust that eventually all HUmans will be EXtra-ordinary and accept none other......in the meantime .......I too went the night route in every respect.......and will never do other......and one of the important expressions learned was not about going after the "Out there" learning but one by way of the Sufi "everything you will ever need to know is right there.......on the back of your eyelids."
elizabeth muncey 10+
elizabeth muncey 10+
Rick Ryan 10+
I became intrigued about this whole idea numerous years ago when I read a book where one "scientist" posited that consciousness was a natural result of the increased complexity of an organism. The more complex the organism evolved, the more likely it would "have" a consciousness. In that regard, I would have to conclude (and agree) there are different levels of consciousness. Most people would think I exhibit a higher level of consciouness than a tree (well...at least if they are my friends). But the book never expalined the REASON for that consciouness developing as the organism became more complex. That's where my topic question originated. What would the REASON a more complex organism would develop consciousness?
So I guess my question now is the one I asked a couple posts ago. Is there a definite "line" where consciousness exists in SOME organisms, but not in others? I know this may cross into the philosophical area of something like, "Is there One Big Cosmic Consciouness?" and the complexity of the organism may just reach a point where the organism can "plug into" that consciousness at varyng levels of "awareness" as needed by the organism to meet it's basic fundamental needs..."eat" and "reproduce". What does it mean to have a "higher consciousness"?
Do you think ALL living organisms are conscious, at just different levels? Or can some have none?
elizabeth muncey 10+
Frans Kellner 100+
The brain being part of the nervous system has little to do with consciousness as such.
The brain in primates has developed a special layer devised for movements through the trees. Moving hands and feet separately and don't forget the control over 20 fingers on all fours uses lots of coordination managed from the brain. To reach the branch at a distant you needed to have a perfect 3D vision for depths.
(differentiating right- left brain half)
As you know this is done by comparison the two images and subtracting the angel.
Here we start to think because comparing and calculating is all what it is about. The ability to create time by projecting the past in the future from repetitive events and structure life in the process is the way primates started to image the world.
Especially as we came to the ground and our hands came free to hold and manipulate objects this trait developed exponential up till we made tools and figures that were solid images.
We hold that image we create of the world to reflect on as we are awake for it contains our separate self that is continuously in a dialogue with the so called reality.
During this process over the ages we made consciousness into knowledge. This in turn was coded in language to power up the process. This activity uses lots of energy and is always slow in its reaction on real events for it lost its spontaneity.
We know many things but not consciousness because it is that what knows, what is.
Don Wesley 50+
That is my amateur view of you.
I just revisited Neuroscientist, Vilayanur Ramachandran's many talks available on YouTube.
I wanted to find our whether he agrees that the brain is like having hardwired modules that can be modeled in computers. He says this is the old view and has modified his thinking! So I have to ask you, how do you react to this info.
My own sense is, that George Lakoff's views are in fact the most recent and practical view of what we should know about how our own Brain can fool us!
Don
elizabeth muncey 10+
elizabeth muncey 10+
Mitch SMith 50+
I agree with Ramachandran to a large extent. Where he finds his departure from the "hard-wired" model is the phenomena of "plasticity" not the basic dynamic of neural modelling.
Let me explain:
Plasticity has several expressions;
Firstly, plasticity is present in the "hard-wired" model of a static network by way of the synapses changing potentiation dynamically. For instance, a network trained to recognise the letter Q might settle on the letter O on its way to learning that Q is not O. You can observe this with a simple back-propogation model. As teh "training" progresses, the topology of teh synaptic potentials changes - this is a form of plasticity - it is very fast.
Secondly, brain neurons can grow new synaptic connections. This allows for pre-trained networks to connect (association) or for a saturated network to co-opt surrounding neurons for additional "training". This is a slower process.
Thirdly, the brain can grow new neurons. This is even slower and builds on the second process.
Types 2 and 3 are not easily modelled in a computer.
On top of that, one sees a network of networks - and the human brain has discrete network "modules" that are pre-defined and accupy discrete functions. But all in the brain is not so discretely allocated - much of it forms up around experience - and plasticity enables this.
Minsky also has problems reconciling pure mathematical topology with observations in brains - he proposes a network solution to provide a choice of solutions from neural to heuristic - with the inference that we will find non-neural solutions in brain structures.
Personally, I predict that the capacity to form multiple autobiographical selves is the key to overcoming the mathematical constraints of topology (particularly the exclusive-or problem) - having convergent pairs allows for new levels of mathematical solution - but relies on having a social "partner" to function. This suggests that the entire neural system must be open. (contd.)
Don Wesley 50+
I saw that in his online lessons.
I feel comfortable that he draws the line at the so-called creativity mystery. He smiles. implying that there "is" what might be God. He notes however that Scientist's do not go to where they cannot see control and measure. Logic of science cannot declare that there is no-god!
All the best until soon,
Don Wesley [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
Don Wesley 50+
I am using this to get your attention to return and visit my replies
to Elizabeth Muncey
All the best and until soon,
Don [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
Mitch SMith 50+
Don Wesley 50+
Lakoff's explanation's certainly shake-up todays science of Polling.
And what we think we know about so-called ration thinking.
Is that notion of “God” mirror thinking in our brain?
I can now better appreciate the value of think-tank organizations.
Also when conversationalist's give us opinions dressed up as facts,
conversations like these on TED do see the 'Hair flying"
We even have trouble keeping rules of polite order,
as it differs between Ideas, Questions and Debates.
All the best and until soon,
Don Wesley [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
Mitch SMith 50+
I have to admit that restating my ideas here propelled me to have another look at some of the online literature for confirmation and/or development of my central thesis (the dynamics of perception in an open system). And I got stuck in another 6 hours of Sapolsky lectures! WHat got me hooked was that he was using one of my favourite books to demonstrate the partial fall of reductionism - i.e James Gliek's "Chaos".
It's rather odd, I'd previously sat through a couple hours of Chomski's lectures in which reductionism and its philosophical relationship with materialism/dualism was explored.
The names keep going round and round. ANd I ask, what is this phenomenon of "greatness"? Why is it that so few can dominate when it is manifest that there are many just as good?
I know, I have exploited that phenomenon on the past, but I never really asked why the dynamic arises.
I'll sleep on it ;)
In the mean time, I'll forgive myself for the odd expression of annyance with ignorance.
God? surely there might be one - but not in a box and not under a bushel that requires major engineering to lift. The most obvious place to look is where there is more than nothing - and that, as it turns out, is everything ;)
Don Wesley 50+
Where you said,
"God? surely there might be one - but not in a box and not under a bushel that requires major engineering to lift. The most obvious place to look is where there is more than nothing - and that, as it turns out, is everything ;) "
I am smiling and gently laughing and
To paraphrase, I add it is Mind over Matter.
[BTW] In my clarity for detail I find what matters; hoping you don’t mind.
Don
Mitch SMith 50+
What it forgets is that absolutes are transitory.
I am reminded of the forgotten halls of power that reside within us.
Certainly they are formidable, but even there, one will find limits.
For instance, did you know that humans have ear-movement muscles justa as cats and dogs? With practice, one can move one's ears. Similarly, we have muscles that can move our scalps - I have no idea why this is so, but, with practice you can also move your scalp. It is useful to move your scalp because it helps relieve headache - these are the miscles that cause pain when tension is refered there by stress or brain dysfunction.
Also, even though there are no muscles in your lung and nasal tissues, one can relax them if they are inflamed by histamine reactions - this particular trick saved my life once. And I no longer have need of nasal de-congestants nor suffer from life-threatening asthma.
These hidden halls of power - why have we lost them? What is it we have traded for our mechanistic civillisation? How can we still look down at our ancestors? How can we be confused that they refrained for 200 thousand years to indulge in this madness we call civillisation?
Don Wesley 50+
I was born with my right arm paralyzed.
My mom was 40 and I was 12 pounds 13 oz.
The doctor damaged my arm pulling too hard
It was working again by the age of one.
My mom, got me picking up things with my toes.
I did learn to move my ears
And flex most all muscles
I did learn to turn off itching.
When alone as a child without toys we learn a lot
about our body.
Best of all, was learning I could suffer abuse for years,
I could more quickly do these things,
If I talked to God.
I also learned not to fear telling the truth [vulnerability]
It made me more creative.
We do learn to survive; but do need
A lot of unconscious sleep.
Mitch SMith 50+
All of us trees - all of us clinging despeately on this big rock called Earth.
Up go our leaves, down go our roots.
All questing along the primal rule: BE!
Here we are humans - the latest expression of what it means to be alive - as far as we know (which .. isn't all that far, but enough).
I can give so much - as can we all. The enormity of potential is breathtaking - and there are 7 billion of us!!!
So what's wrong? How come mirracles are not floating past us every single second?
It is this:
You must go flip, then flop.
everyone are afraid of "flip" because no one plans how to do "flop".
What is "flip and flop"?
Flip is becoming what you are not.
Why flip?
Because that is where "others" are - to join them you must flip what you are!
But f you just "flip" you will be trapped - and lose yourself.
Here - try this:
Before you "flip" - plan your "flop".
Then .. those you touch - they come back with you - and you with them.
SO - what is it to be this beautiful human?
It is the plan to bring all others into our love.
Before we "flip" out into the dark places,
we must know how to "flop - and all those we touch come in with us - and we go into them.
Rise - rise to your challenge - find the flop - then flip, flip, flip - and bring us all back home.
Flop
Flop
Flop.
Don't lose your way.
Don Wesley 50+
Thanks for your Poem.
There is a lot of air in it;
All hot.
With all the Flop and Flipping
Where is the Pancake.
Thanks for the Transactional Stroking
I am purring like a cat now.
I am wondering about Debra Smith ?
I preparing for the court soon; civic and criminal
It is labor intensive work for me
Stay Precious Mitch; I love you
Don
Rick Ryan 10+
From an "all life forms" perspective, what do you think the reason for the development of "higher level consciousness" was then? Someone mentioned humans, dolphins, and whales having "higher levels of consciousness". Why would that have developed? I have seen a TED video that posits the development of any "brain" was primarily to control movement of the species within the environment...something needed to develop to control the "muscles" (sic) of the organism. But that doesn't account for the need of a "higher level consciousness".
I'm also concerned that not all species appear to have the same "sleep" or unconscious state needs. As mentioned by some here, obviously not all species are "awake at day...asleep at night" creatures. Many species are just the opposite...their "conscious state" is nocturnal. And the needs for the amount of "unconsciousness" seem to vary greatly, as mentioned about hibernating species.
So, why the vast differences between species? Is there a common denominator at the foundation of it all? What would account for all the variations of "sleep" requirements (unconsciousness states) between the different species? Granted, if our "sleep" is just a lower level of consciousness, where does the line between conscious/unconscious exist? And why? That's what I was getting at with my original topic post.
Frans's "layer by layer" evolution for humans seems logical, but why would that have been solely a human development?
All the replies have been fascinating so far, so don't be afraid to keep 'em coming even if they wander off my original intent of the question..
elizabeth muncey 10+
Rick Ryan 10+
Agree with the mental health aspects too. I've read numerous studies about that.
Thanks for the inputs!
elizabeth muncey 10+
elizabeth muncey 10+
elizabeth muncey 10+
Don Wesley 50+
Ted conversations are text and are easily printed using Microsoft applications like Internet Explorer for example; using your mouse, right click on the background and a menu pops up > select Print Preview and so on ...
I also, when in a hurry, use the MS OneNote, which is available at the Tools Menu, on Internet Explorer; if you have OneNote installed. Print it to a CD or Back-up to an online service like Norton 360, or your own back-up USB hard Drive. Dis-connect the USB hard drive and hide it some where in the house, or carry it with when you leave in soft enclosure. You must have a hard drive to do your backups. Printing is the alternative, but the cost of paper and ink is even more expensive.
I think the Norton 360 service is the best insurance; but you pay for insurance.
I hope answers your question. I also dread the thought that I lose my laptop.
Until soon
Aware and Caring about you
Don.
You can also email me - go to my web-site - see my profile here on TED
elizabeth muncey 10+
Don Wesley 50+
How happy you make me feel by telling this short story.
“Story Power” is powerful and that is a fact.
Yes, I do miss my children, all three charming souls.
They are suffering from 'Shame' and that really injures me.
But, God surprises me with visits from people like you Elizabeth.
Yes I do share some of your fathers background. I was trained in Royal Canadian Signal Corps and became an Officer of the Crown in 1953.
I am just about 80, slim and in good health and my mind is still very quick.
Just to underscore how good you have made feel Elizabeth;
Your "kindness" is what The Great Architect Above is All About - A State of Loving.
All the best and until soon,
Don Wesley [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
elizabeth muncey 10+
Don Wesley 50+
I truly enjoy your manner of expressing joy over great open thinking. We need to accept our own vulnerability and find ourselves wrong. It helps, not hurts. Thank you Elizabeth
Don
Don Wesley 50+
All the very best Elizabeth
Until soon
Don Wesley [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
Don Wesley 50+
I have even done my own research among college students urging them to study fully, and then retreat to sleep and have "unconscious cerebration" [if it exists.] Those who left the joint-study-groups to sleep after study [rather than joke around] reported 'acing the exams.'
My son 'Steven' aced everything. He was you might say a professional student. Less talk more acing.
He went on to become a psychiatrist.
Pleased to add to your researching idea.
Don
Don Wesley 50+
"Consciousness is the abnormal state of a living organism. "Sleeping" (unconsciousness) is the normal state.."
So here is what I also found to be revealed.
Explorations of the Mind: Intuition
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dddFfRaBPqg
Don Wesley [From The Silent Generation - 1930's]
Mitch SMith 50+
This is why it is so important to really look at things before making conclusions.
Truly look at the words, listen to the voice. Then look beyond them, look into them.
Grab that gift-horse by the throat and put a microscope down it's gob - it might be full of Ancient Greeks who are not interested in your well-being..
You might not find a pack of murderous enemies in there, but you will learn a little about the digestive tract of equines ;)
A good link Don, and entirely consistent with the dynamics of topological self-organising systems such as brains.
My post below deals with insight - it is a different process to intuition - but it's nice to see the contrast with the process presented by Kahneman.
Don Wesley 50+
And furthermore we are not conscious of reasoning as we think we do.
Take a look at the following:
“George Lakoff is the co-founder of the Rockridge Institute, a think tank for progressive politics and public policies. His talk surveys basic findings about what human reason is really like and shows why this matters in politics. Over the past 30 years, Lakoff posits, cognitive and brain sciences have shown that human reason --instead of being conscious and logical — takes place mostly below the level of consciousness and is much more interesting and complex than was once believed.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=mEb__-szK4k&feature=endscreen
Don Wesley [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
Mitch SMith 50+
I thought it best to record that here as a primary factor before the remainder of the talk overwhelms my early impressions.
Motor neurons
framing and context
Contriving a world of falsehood
Inhibitory neural structures.
Polsters/framing
The principle of unity in social species.
Empathy as a hard-wired property of social species.
Naratives and parables.
I have to keep reminding myself that I've been following these insights closely since the early 90's and have done my own neural modeling in computers etc.
And I keep hearing the same names pop-up - Damasio and Minsky. There are other significant advancements published on TED by equally gifted luminaries - just search neural and brain .. throw in conectome and computational and you have most of the great thinkers of our time right there.
I have written on all these subjects on TED and other places. It all simply follows from the basic neural net dynamic and evolutionary development of fields of agency.
It is certainly refreshing to hear and see George Lakoff articulate these principles so clearly - but for me it's like just nodding about what bears do in the woods.
OK - back to tools. Tools will be the next big breakthrough of neural and cognitive sciences. It is already out there, but will take a year or so for the penny to drop. It has to do with brain mapping of the 3rd arm in a monkey. The 3rd arm was a robotic arm connected into the monkey's brain and shown to the monkey via a video hookup.
To begin with the monkey found teh robot arm moving with his real right arm. Then, he learned to manipulate that arm by moving his right arm, then he learned how to manipulate that arem without using his right arm - he had re-mapped his breain to include the 3rd arm as a fully integrated part of his body.
Also - I am impressed at your mental agility Don - I would hope to be as nimble when I reach 80!
Mitch SMith 50+
It's a good question! Good questions are rare ;)
I'll have a go at an answer that might lead you to other good questions.
Firstly, it's a good idea to remember that we are humans - it is usually a wrong-turn to project our human attributes onto other species .. it's kinda inevitable to do that, but keeping the caveat in mind helps get at the truth.
Being a vertibrate with the kind of neural structure that vertibrates have, we have also gotten some house-keeping functions in order to maintain our neural mechanisms. The more "brain" you have, the more house-keeping it requires, and for us higher-primates, we get a bonus - we can take into account factors that lie outside the imediate environmental pressures - sleep gives us that power.
sleep - it prepares the brain to make associations by pre-sensitising connection potentials between fully potentiated synaptic maps. This is a process called "dreaming".
THis can only happen by turning the frontal cortex off - i.e. remove the "executive" so that maps acquired during the day can be sorted into potential association (outside the context of imediate survival that the executive "consciousness" imposes). THese may be confirmed on the following day(s) while the executive is dealing with imediate environmental needs(survival) - the pre-potentiated associations developed in "dreaming" give rise to a thing we call "insight" and it's very clever and powerful.
The net result is an enhanced field of perception - which leads to an enhanced field of agency which leads to an enhanced field of adaptability that leads to an enhanced margin of survival.
On that basis, sleep(unconsciousness) is a newcomer that has arisen through evolution.
Oh - and don't confuse the human left frontal cortex with consciousness - sleep also requires a disconnect of the anterior brain-stem where part of the proto-self resides - so it is very possible that consciousness is maintained in other parts of the system in non-humans.
Don Wesley 50+
I have to remind myself that you are a "Neural systems hobbyist" not a scientist.
Is this true. You seem very bookish which isn't bad, but excellent
Everyone here seems to imply they know the facts; sort of mis-leading talk; what do you think.
Don.
elizabeth muncey 10+
Don Wesley 50+
My education is very British [no problem to understand]
What I am hightlighting is Lakoff "brilliant work."
"Over the past 30 years, Lakoff posits, cognitive and brain sciences have shown that human reason --instead of being conscious and logical — takes place mostly below the level of consciousness and is much more interesting and complex than was once believed.”
Sahil Jaswal Writer of three books, India, Mumbai said about Lakoffs work:
1 day ago: Brilliant, it really changes how you approach politics and all, basically the general reasoning of people. How different frames that people belong to differentiate them. Thank you so much for sharing.
http://www.ted.com/conversations/13619/republicans_or_democrats_pros.html
REpublicans or democrats? pros and cons? Prediction, statistics? defer?
A Debate
Don Wesley [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
Mitch SMith 50+
I am neither a hobbyist nor a scientist in the traditional definitions - I am a practitioner.
For instance, my neural networking experimentation was first a general exploration of topology, but culminated in m,y inclusion in a neural net project for a major banking network...
It is pointless in my world view to pick up skills that you have no use for - certainly, after realising that I had sufficient resources to survive, the pressure for financial security no longer dominated such choices. Likewise I have no need for recognition and feely publish here on TED and other places. You can check any of my claims with published scientists and obtain corroberation.
@Elizabeth. I can certainly spin perceptions in my audience if I so wish by using semantic tricks, however my true audience will realise that I am very precise with the words I use to ensure absolute framing (if not the spelling ;). I expect my gift horse to be examined microscopically from both ends and welcome any identification of flaws there-in. I assure you, my target audience understand me perfectly.
I certainly do understand the concept of the internal melleiu(sp?) as outlined by Damasio. In fact it is his observation that lead me to complete my understanding of the role of "self" in self organising systems and postulate the iterative, adaptive model of space/metaspace that is serving me handsomely at the moment. In fact, the full development of that occured right here in TED forums - which I have used as my journal for a few years now. This is the era of open systems.
(edit: I do not discard the writings of a major thinker until I fully inderstand the concepts - including follow-up of sources and data where needed, great thinkers do not have a monopoly on insight - no expert is above us, as many seem to think - it is our duty to build on their gift - and give it on to all).
Don Wesley 50+
Are you a neuroscientist or cognitive psychologist?
The Idea I am focusing on is “Consciousness is the abnormal state of a living organism. "Sleeping" (unconsciousness) is the normal state.”
Help me understand whether you agree with this statement?
Lakoff's work is profound [very new] and should change the way we all understand this very day and here on TED
I want to give Lakoff and his collaborators credit for their brilliant work, will you join me in doing so. Or tell me I am wrong to do so.
Don
Mitch SMith 50+
What do I think? I think people should respect themselves more - I think they should not automatically defer to anyone.
I think they should not resort to distortions for self esteem and I think it's bad form to gain stature from climbing on tall people and pretend tallness. IF one has stature, one will find themselves being lifted up.
Those who make claims should quote sources as well as claim insights - so others may follow.
Don Wesley 50+
"To thine own self be true" is Polonius's last piece of advice to his son Laertes, who is in a hurry to get on the next boat to Paris, where he'll be safe from his father's long-winded speeches.
Don
elizabeth muncey 10+
Mitch SMith 50+
THe work of Lakoff is the extension of the work of the broad insights across neural theory, neurobiology, behaviourology and cognitive theory - as applied to political behaviour.
He puts it together very elegantly - and in so doing, demonstrates the explosive power of the new paradigm. It can be applied to cut through false assumptions quite well, and I like the introducvtion of the 2 types of thinking. I was waiting for him to mention the process of type#1 thinking to prompt type#2 thinking - intuitive resort to deliberate thinking i.e. the intuition trained to to use an extrinsic tool rather than an intrinsic body part. That's why I mentioned the 3-armed monkey.
I totally dissagree with the statement that unconsciousness is the "normal" state. By normal, I read "the default state of lifeforms".
By way of my arguement previously stated - unconsciousness is a relatively recent adaptation. In that statement I identified the purpose of unconsciousness in higher vertibrates - how "dreaming" lays the potential for "insight" that reaches beyond the imediate survival pressures.
Dreams are the result of "wandering" association - the tentative joining of what is already learned and confirmed by experience. This sets up sensitivities that can be triggered into full understanding of causality that may not be otherwise perceived - but they only get triggered if there is a corroorative experience to "cement" the connection.
FOr instance, one might observe that there is a rabbit and the sun is setting - all you notice is the rabbit - it's food and you try to catch it and fail. During sleep you might dream of a rabit hopping out of the setting sun. The next day you see the sun setting - and there is the rabbit - the tentative connection in the dream is triggered = "rabbits graze at sunset". So the next day you get there early and wait for the rabbit to emerge on sunset and you grab him. You eat, you survive, and your children dream.
Don Wesley 50+
However I do get the impression that "you Hold Court' as the saying goes in my town" and pass judgement on others peoples work, and not your own. Do you have a reflection.
I think Layoff's collaborative work is excellent and his powerful work needs no quick improvement.
Bears sleep all winter and survive.
We seem to talk and confuse. Maybe we should sleep more and cause less trouble.
As my old Chinese friend often reveals by picture, we are all "long talk" about a "short story"
I do love you too, Mitch.
Don
Mitch SMith 50+
The admiration's mutual my friend.
It's not judgement - it's excitement. These brilliant scientists and researchers bring their inspirations to us with light in their eyes - this puts light in my eyes and I see new things they did not bring and my heart cries yes! and next! And - everyone come pick up these beutiful diamonds! If it's a court, then I must be the jester - or a hostile witness ;) There are limits to TED text boxes and youtube videos that create a poverty that invites enrichment.
Short stories? yes, but sometimes the journey is long to escape a wrong story.
Framing for instance. It is inductive as well as informative.
The frame of the author's assertion of the unconscious default imputes the supremacy of humans and a justification for antipathy to non-human species. It disgusts me and I will make the journey long enough for all to exit his hideous frame.
Dormancy is not equivalent to unconsciousness.
All life forms that have a field of agency have an executive function to determine which course of action to take. Although this will take many forms from species to species - it is consciousness none the less.
Don Wesley 50+
I just can't help loving you.
You simply are a precious person
in all the dimensions possible
Don
Raja Choudhury
Mitch SMith 50+
Here's another reason for sleep - it prepares the brain to make associations by pre-sensitising connection potentials between fully potentiated synaptic maps.
THis can only happen by turning the frontal cortex off - i.e. remove the "executive" so that maps acquired during the day can be sorted into potential association for confirmation on the following day(s).
Of course, it is also necessary to disconnect the lower brain stem to prevent actual physical movements while these speculative pre-associations are occuring.
Being basically reptilian(as you suggest), we vertibrates are at the mercy of the ambient energy cycles (day and night). So dormancy makes sense - there is no reason to be running around at night bumping into things and using more energy than is available.
So on that score, Rick is right - there is no need to be "conscious" whilever the organism has no need to maintain it's self-definitions(survival). But I'd suggest to him, that living organisms are defined by their activity to sustain themselves - therefore, sleep is not the default condition - the universe is dynamic.
Robert Winner 50+
Is there a cure or am I doomed .... help.
Bob.
Ed Schulte 50+
Yer a gonner like all we males ....no hope, Kapput, Butkis ...elfinito!!!....
.geeez I feel a cat nap coming on
Robert Winner 50+
To be the best I can be I need to go into a coma.
Don Wesley 50+
We all knew, but you just did not want to Believe
Don
natasha nikulina 50+
I think it is an example of 'Coincidentia oppositorum' The doctrine of coincidentia oppositorum is based on the interpenetration, interdependence and unification of opposites. In simple human language maybe it means: to be conscious of unconscious self.
Maybe it is not common, but i guess, it's a normal state :)
Ed Schulte 50+
It can also be seen as.... Hermes Trismegistus, "That which is Below corresponds to that which is Above, and that which is Above, corresponds to that which is Below, to accomplish the miracles of the One Thing"
which is took often reduced to "as above, so below" probably because the Subconsciousness knows full well that Ego's indiscretions will have to be faced and dis energized ...eventually ..
There use to be a popular car Licence Plate on expensive cars 20 years ago which read "You can take it with you!!!!" and that IS TRUE !!!! but the down side results are seen all over the current news of the Day ...Bank fraud ....stock fraud.....primed scams ....etc.....all good lessons being taught in the current Shell Hell.
natasha nikulina 50+
And the 'miracles of the One Thing' is ?
I guess, it's the miracle of being alive. In a way it's the answer to Rick's question : maybe we are more conscious,being unconscious or sleeping, but the task of a life time is to become conscious while awake or be awaken while awake .
Something like this :)
I know about Hermes Trismegistus very...very little, but what I've heard here and there is so deep !
"As within so without"
There are a lot in the net to be lost , so if you can help me with a link/links, i'll be very grateful.
Thanks and have a nice day !
Ed Schulte 50+
Or "Die the three deaths before you die mortally"
Or "realizing" but that in current use is watered down to "intellectual grasping" so not effective "Conscious of Consciousness" is awkward but is precise.
re : Hermes and for that matter a lot of ref's Sacred Text is a useful web service
http://www.sacred-texts.com......and use the search button "?"
their Hermes collection is here
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cat/srchtitl.htm?search_str=Hermes+Trismegistu
natasha nikulina 50+
natasha nikulina 50+
Anne Thull
And I believe Ed Schulte explains that, these unconscious-energy-sources resonate a creative energy which creates Expansion / Intelligence /me
Both Conscious and Unconscious are always working at the same time - but when we tune into the Unconscious more directly - we feel 'alive' - free - and at peace - as our self-energy connects with all energy sources
Ed Schulte 50+
of Eckhart Tolle's work ....what current "educated" mind calls day to day activity is ..rather ..."unconscious" states relative to "Who we are beyond name and form" ( consciousness itself)
If I had to choose one and one only it would be
"Soul-Self Awareness"....the I AM
Where "I" is "Self" and "AM" is Soul and the space in-between "!" and "AM" is the "awareness."
re: your "But once it has accomplished these two goals, a return to an unconscious state makes sense...it is the least energy consuming state of an organism. Being conscious and moving around expends much more energy and would not be the preferred state of an organism "
This is off track ....there is no "energy consuming" happening when one is in alignment with "who we are beyond name and form" ...there is "resonance" and there is "Expansion" within an Infinite source of Creative Energy. And when that is fully "Realized" there will be no need for differentiation such as "Consciousness/UNconsciousness " only "I AM"
the
Salim Solaiman 50+
All organism goes thorugh cycle sleep cycle according to complexity , development level as well environmetal factors.....say even a human baby needs more sleep than that of adult....so rather it's seems "sleep" or dormant state is a very much required state for evolutionary process instead of being "counter intuitive"
Amphibians and repitles goes through seasonal hibernation process basicllay during cold time , that allows them to survive....while some fishes in during summer while wetland get dried goes through astivation in th same way.....
Interestingly , sleep cycle is different for different species......so far my knowledge goes nocturnal predators mostly preys on nocturnal preys.....that means both are on active state..
On the other hand , the "awake / active " (want to avoid the word conciousness as not sure whether we can say an amoeba or plant has that or not) also neede to win the war of survival for the reasons explained in original post...