- Amr Salah
- Alexandria, Egypt
- Egypt
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Aren't Christianity, Judaism and Islam basically the same? How much archaeological evidence is there of similar teachings in the past?
Among countless arguments that keep recurring almost on a daily basis, specially in the middle-east, many are centered around the constant conflict between the Abrahamic religions. I found it strange that whole centuries were not enough for humans to reach some conclusions, perhaps because we are all, to some extent, biased. People simply ignored, and in some cases resented, what they didn't konw. The media played a significant role in further increasing the gap using inflaming language, fabricated and biased news while ignoring or hiding historic and concrete facts altogether.
Apparently, Jews denied Christians and Muslims, Christians denied Muslims and Jews, and Muslims denied Christians and Jews. Nowadays, many people are conditioned to take sides without even thinking. One puzzling point is that some people turned other religions to a forbidden knowledge instead of encouraging people to know. Thus, they seem to prefer keeping people ignorant rather than letting them form an opinion on their own.
I don't know if someone has contributed to any sort of worldwide work that deals with the basic similarities between the Abrahamic religions, specially the beliefs. Thus, I invite everyone who is willing to share what they know about: the similarities between the Abrahamic religions, the archaeological evidence regarding them and what you think whether any human, organization or government nowadays has any right to turn any of the Abrahamic religions to a forbidden knowledge.
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Obey No1kinobe 50+
For example on morality, they might say without a god there can be no morality. Without religion the world will collapse into a den of barbarity.
But there are more than 2 options if you think about. Say there is a god, who is to say the god has the ideal morality. Just because it is powerful does not make it good. If this god orders or does some things that cause unnecessary suffering, it could be considered immoral. If I created a child I don't treat it like a slave. A global flood killing men, women children is a pretty nasty, but hell is evil.
Many religions define their god as omni benevolent - all loving and can do no wrong. So by definition whatever god does or says is good even if it would not be if done or ordered by a human. I suggest defining it so does not necessarily make it so. Its a circular logic.
So if there is a god telling us how to live, and you know somehow you have the right interpretation out of the millions of beliefs, power does not equal being moral. People say their god is love without considering how they would rate this being if it were not their god.
Also, imagine there is no interventionist god telling us how to live. Then humans made up all the religions and rules. None are from god. They are just past efforts to manage or control a society, a mix of good and bad. Regulating slavery, owning people as chattel, is not as good as eliminating it. Killing people for working on the Sabbath, maybe not so good.
People can work out moral systems without stamping this or that god on them to give them authority.
It might be easy to have rules from a religious book. You have to think more about what is best when you don't have a cookie cutter approach, but it does not automatically follow people will all start raping and killing and steeling if we replace religious morality with well thought out secular ethics.
Amr Salah
I'm not asking what approach you're going to use for determining. I'm asking What the source of this knowledge is.
Saying "doing this is good and doing that is bad" means there is a set of rules exactly like the rules that govern planets and life on earth. So, the rules existed even before we were born, right? Then, Who made the rules? I argue the rules that balance life on earth and the set of rules that determine what's good and what's bad are not the work of those who were created.
If the sun, stars and planets started making their individual set of rules on their own, it would be chaos, right?
There must be a universal set of rules and morals that govern all things and all creatures. Who can make these rules better than He Who created life and death?
Now, if we agreed that there is a set of rules that existed even before our existence, shouldn't we check the original "reference" of the set of rules?
God's justice is absolute. You may have some sympathy for a murderer, but the murderer deserves the punishment. He may live unpunished, but he won't escape death.
A story in Qur'an tells of some people who owned a big garden (not sure if 'garden' is the right word). They decided the garden and all the fruits in it is their property and they shall not allow any of the poor to take anything. They shall keep it all to themselves. During their sleep, a storm of fire devoured the whole garden, leaving nothing of it. When they went there and saw what happened, they realized they were wrong. They realized the garden was something that they were given in life, but it was not theirs.
If you allow a group of people to own all resources and land on earth who would make the rest starve to death, you're neither merciful nor just. If you let a group of people murder others and escape punishment, you're neither merciful nor just. If you treat those who do good and those who do evil equally, you're neither merciful nor just.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Why is it good or bad just because god says it is so? Perhaps because you believe it is so. If god told you to kill your son, or your neighbour, is that good because god said so. This is just circular logic.
Defining what is good and bad is not easy. Philosophers have spent centuries thing about these things so we are not starting from zero. Typically a society might encourage behaviours that support things they value and discourage behaviours that go against what is valued. If women are considered property and there virginity and behaviour is thought to reflect on the honour of their father or husband, that will lead to certain rules.
Fundamentally, there are also issues with unwanted children, or making sure the children are yours.
A more modern view might start with defining what is good and bad in terms of what reduces or increases suffering, the premise that being alive and free to act is better than being dead or enslaved etc.
I'm not sure if there is an objective absolute morality for every situation.
If your family is starving is it wrong to steal from a corrupt official?
Is it sometimes justified to kill - If your wife is suffering terribly from an incurable disease and wants to die. In self defense if you are attacked.
In many cases treating others how we would like to be treated seems to work. But not always firstly if how you would like to be treated is questionable. A Father may think that if we was a women he would like to be locked up to protect his virtue.
Also if you killed someone you might not want to get locked up or executed, but would want other murders locked up.
It is complex, but we have brains and can do our best.
Amr Salah
I meant when you determine that doing something is good and doing another is evil means there is a law that existed even before you determined or found that out. (The same way that gravity applied even before we knew about it.) The law probably applies to all humans even if they don't know about it or don't want to apply it. That's the case even if you instinctively knew what's right and what's wrong without reading any of the Books.
Ah yes, gravity is unbiased, at all. It is definitely not man-made. We should learn from it. :)
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Likewise I can disagree with some of the other moral instructions in holy books, and give you a considered argument why.
Is there anything in the bible or other religions you think might not make sense in the 21st century? Should adultery be killed? Should homosexuals be killed? Should people be killed for working on the holy day of rest? Is slavery acceptable?
I agree with many religious moral positions based on consideration, not just because a book says so. However, I just worry religious teachings, especially old ones, include medieval or iron age morality that may not be the best we have thought of.
Amr Salah
Obey No1kinobe 50+
For the sake of argument say gods exist, maybe I die and Hades says I have not lived as I should and will be sent to the netherworld. I'll say, I thought you and all other gods were myths.
Kind of unfair that it depends on picking the right belief system from all the millions that exist. And none of them are convincing or stand out as being the truth. In fact it seems evil and perverse that if there is a god it would judge us for not following the correct rules when the rules and existence of this god were not clear.
I sometimes work on the Sabbath. Eat the wrong foods etc etc.
It would be more merciful to forgive without conditions.
If all the religions had 100% good rules, I wouldn't mind so much. But they don't.
I agree that deeds define the character of a person more than nation, race, gender.
Amr Salah
By the way, sorry I didn't understand what you meant by Sabbath previously. Sabbath means Saturday in Arabic. There is a story about prohibition of fishing (or working?) in Sabbath, and I don't really claim I understand this particular story very well. It seems some people were punished in the past when they fish (or work) in Sabbath. I may read one of the interpretations about this later.
Jews, Christians and Muslims, each of them have one special day for prayers.
Anyway, Muslims are not prohibited from working on Fridays. We go to one special prayer, then we may resume our work. There is a sura called "Friday".
Amr Salah
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I guess Friday for Muslims is the same sort of thing.
Christians day of rest in Sunday but perhaps not so strict
Obey No1kinobe 50+
English has so many historical influences - Celtic, Latin, Saxon, French, it is a mongrel language based on different invaders and influences. Even Arabic words - Algebra, algorithm etc