- Amr Salah
- Alexandria, Egypt
- Egypt
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Aren't Christianity, Judaism and Islam basically the same? How much archaeological evidence is there of similar teachings in the past?
Among countless arguments that keep recurring almost on a daily basis, specially in the middle-east, many are centered around the constant conflict between the Abrahamic religions. I found it strange that whole centuries were not enough for humans to reach some conclusions, perhaps because we are all, to some extent, biased. People simply ignored, and in some cases resented, what they didn't konw. The media played a significant role in further increasing the gap using inflaming language, fabricated and biased news while ignoring or hiding historic and concrete facts altogether.
Apparently, Jews denied Christians and Muslims, Christians denied Muslims and Jews, and Muslims denied Christians and Jews. Nowadays, many people are conditioned to take sides without even thinking. One puzzling point is that some people turned other religions to a forbidden knowledge instead of encouraging people to know. Thus, they seem to prefer keeping people ignorant rather than letting them form an opinion on their own.
I don't know if someone has contributed to any sort of worldwide work that deals with the basic similarities between the Abrahamic religions, specially the beliefs. Thus, I invite everyone who is willing to share what they know about: the similarities between the Abrahamic religions, the archaeological evidence regarding them and what you think whether any human, organization or government nowadays has any right to turn any of the Abrahamic religions to a forbidden knowledge.
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Adriaan Braam 20+
If is a spiritual interpretation of most of the Bible (as we bellieve, revealed through him).
One religion or belief system has 'evolved' from the previous one, as humanity grew up and developed. For some reason, religions have interpreted their Revelation in a way that was not the intention.
Revelation is meant to make humanity better (more loving and kind), not more hatefull and exclusive.
Every person that is a good person, of whatever religion!!!!, goes to heaven. No one goes to heaven because of what they own, belong to or have done. It is only based on our character, on what we love.
As they say: "We are what we love."
Maybe this book (vol I of two) will help this world to come together and return the Middle East to Eden.
https://sites.google.com/site/liveitupspiritually/home/writings/True%20Christian%20Religion%2001.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1
Obey No1kinobe 50+
They are inherently subjective.
Adriaan Braam 20+
Everything!! spiritual is subjective, even NDE's. But at least it can tell that person (no one else) 'there is more to us than our body.'
Amr Salah
The reason science would not contradict religion is that science deals with studying the rules that govern life and is based on seeking the truth. We may make mistakes in understanding and interpretting religion and we may make mistakes based on wrong scientific theories and explanations, but we can and should only seek the truth, do our best and hope for what's good.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
You might be right but we don't know.
Amr Salah
My understanding of Qur'an changes and develops alongside what I learn from scientific discoveries, general knowledge, observations, and experience I learn day by day. It is as if the interpretation, or understanding, grows up side by side with human knowledge on all levels, individuals, society and humanity altogether. For example, the concept of "justice" is well-understood, but the means by which justice is delivered and the means by which "justice" is evaluated and judged have changed greatly over time. Sadly, it was affected by our bias, and the bloodlust hidden under the robe of patriotism.
However, that doesn't change the real meaning of the words or the belief, and it doesn't change the practices of religion or what's definitely right and what is definitely wrong. In my case, I simply correct some of my misunderstandings and some of my wrong ideas. I try to learn what could help purify and increase my belief. I believe we should never stop searching for knowledge and truth until the moment we're no longer alive. Every extra moment that passes is one second more we're given to correct ourselves and to get closer to the truth (or further away).
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I support searching for the truth.
Many religious claims don't match what we can confirm about life and the universe oe with each other.
Some religious claims can not be verified because by definition there is no evidence for or against available to confirm the claims.
That is why there are so many religions. People seem to believe conflicting stories are true because they don't want to think that critically about it.
You don't know if Jesus was/is god or not. Neither do the Christians. And since God and Jesus refuse to communicate in a convincing way it seems we never will.
I support a search for truth based on a healthy skepticism and evidence. You can not prove any holy book is correct in all its claims. You certainly can not provide evidence or heaven and judgement after death.
It seems obvious to me that no religion, and especially the abrahamic ones, can prove any claims on being the source of objective morality. In fact many seem deficient.
It seems to me that you believe based on faith not evidence. That is your choice.
Hopefully you might get some insight that your beliefs and those of all the different religions are all subjective when you come down believing in scriptures and revelations and authority.
It seems men wrote all the holy books and could have done so without help
Modern humans have been around 100,000 to 200,000 years. The bible is about 2500 years old. Life on Earth has been around billions of years. Seems odd that god would send prophets to a few middle Eastern Tribes a few hundred or thousands of years ago and forget about anyone before, or in the Americas, or China, or India, or Europe, or Africa, or the Pacific until very recently.
Seriously the religious world view does not fit reality.
Adriaan Braam 20+
.
--"You don't know if Jesus was/is god or not. Neither do the Christians. And since God and Jesus refuse to communicate in a convincing way it seems we never will."--
There is no convincing way because that would stop or nullify the first line above. But if you are really interested, and searching, this is "speaking plainly of the Father." and could help.
http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/studies/Lord.pdf
Please see if this falls within your idea of evidence, or at least makes sense.
Amr Salah
I just wanted to let you know I've answered your comments below. It may be hard to notice.
I appreciate your contributions to the topic. Your questions are understandable. I think I said everything I could say that is within my current level of knowledge.
Perhaps a year or half a year later there will be more to say.
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Also, notice the "shape" of earth has changed from the past. Earth has not been always populated by humans. Also, I think humans "emerged" somewhere then they started moving, travelling and populating. What people in the far past were required to do in religion was different, I think. I think the fact that no more new prophets are coming means we are heading towards the peak of our technological advancement, and also towards the end.
Could you check sura number 2, ayah (verse) #255 in Qur'an? Please tell me when you do.
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Dawn is such a pleasant time :) Sunlight chases away the remainings of night's darkness relentlessly. Birds punctually start their day. The day starts breathing as if it's a living creature.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Amr Salah
I've checked information about Emanuel Swedenborg in wikipedia. His story seems interesting. I will dedicate some time to read his book some time soon. (650 pages will take a while)
Here is my honest opinion so far:
From what I read in wikipedia, there were some good points and some contradictions. One of the good points is,
"Swedenborg rejected the doctrine of salvation through faith alone, since he considered both faith and charity necessary for salvation, not one without the other, whereas the Reformers taught that faith alone procured justification, although it must be a faith which resulted in obedience."
That is consistent with what is believed in Islam. IMHO, "charity" confirms one's spiritual faith with a real-life (materialistic?) action. We have a common saying here that Judaism is a purely materialistic religion, Christianity is a purely spiritual religion and Islam has both sides.
I think Emanuel Swedenborg did extensive studies in his search for the truth, he was very enthusiastic and he deeply rejected some of the practices common at his time, and so his thoughts were strong enough to become something close to visions. I'm not saying I disapprove or approve all his thoughts. However, I would reject outright some of them, not only because of my belief, but also because I find them illogical.
I think it's possible to reach some kind of a peaceful agreement if we all agreed there are similarities in essence between the Abrahamic religions. I find it puzzling that many Christians would disregard Qur'an without even trying to read it to judge themselves if it is in accord with what they believe and what they read in Bible or not.
"Every person that is a good person ..."
I don't know what the final judgment would be. I'd be sure only when my feet are in heaven and far away from hell. It's impossible for us to judge who is a good person because we don't see what's in the heart. We could agree on the criteria of what makes a person good.
Adriaan Braam 20+
I also think that there certainly are differences between all religions, but as Swedenborg says, if we all accepted and practised a love of God or Allah or whatever we want to call Him, and also a love of the neighbour, everything else would just become differences of opinion. Nothing to get upset about.
Maybe this article will be of interest to you, it is shorter than a book :) http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/documents/Islam_NCL95new.rtf
Great to hear from you and you're right, we "could agree on the criteria" that would give us an idea if we, ourselves, are on the road to heaven or not.
Amr Salah
If the file wouldn't be edited later (sorry for my being too overcautious), as far as I can tell, the part concerning Islam in it is a good summary. I may think differently about some of the points, but it could be due to my ignorance. The writer of the original text of the file have a good knowledge of both English and Islam. There could be some points that are incorrect, but it is beyond my current knowledge to tell.
I think about withdrawing from discussing religion, at least for now. I don't think my current low English level, or my current very limited knowledge of both religion and science is appropriate for this sort of discussions. I don't mind being alone in the field (of discussions) right in front of the cannons, but I'm starting to feel I'm causing more harm than good. Also, I'm starting to have some doubts about the accuracy of some of the comments I posted and I'm not sure whether arguments would lead to anything helpful at all. Well, at least the goals of the discussion were somewhat fulfilled. I said my part of the story. Even if there are many mistakes in what I said, these were my opinions from my side as a Muslim Egyptian. I hope they were not just an evidence of my ignorance.
Adriaan Braam 20+
But you seem very hard on yourself. No one is perfect or makes no mistakes. We can only do based on what we know, and no one knows everything. Personally I very much appreciated your responses. If not perfect (which I did not notice), they were totally honest. My impression was that your English was better than mine. I grew up Dutch, talk about not being perfect :)
And then again too, no one will be tested, after death, to see how much he/she knows. It is all about why we did whatever we did, our attitude.
I know something about Swedenborg, but science, not very much.
The article may be a summing up of several books and other articles by other writers. But it has not been changed, it is in the archives of the New church magazine "New church Life."
Our major point of why Islam came about is to offset the spiritual damage done by the Christian belief in three Gods.
Keep up the good works Amr, love to hear from you and like you being open minded. Best wishes.
Amr Salah
"And then again too, no one will be tested, after death, to see how much he/she knows."
This is true, I think.
The problem is that since I represent my side as a Muslim in this discussion, my mistakes would be considered exploitable vulnerabilities by some. I don't expect anyone to come and correct my mistakes or to assist with more accurate information. While I try my best to be honest, I cannot avoid making mistakes, specially based on my ignorance. My biggest worry is if someone would form opinions based on what I say.
The concept of "jihad" has been discussed in the article. I believe there is uncertainity nowadays about the definition of jihad. I have formed an opinion about it over time, but I may be wrong. Also, my opinion is not exactly the most popular opinion. For several centuries, Christians, Jews and Muslims coexisted in Egypt. Also, Muslims and Christians coexisted in Jerusalem. There were very famous treaties that were signed back then, 1400 years ago, that confirm this. What I mean is that I think jihad aims to reach peace and to preserve human lives, but at the same time it protects the Muslims rights' to protect themselves if someone invaded their land or attacked them. Nowadays, things are very complicated and confusing. There is a country in the middle-east that have enough nukes to remove a whole continent, backed by world powers. One of the super-powers thinks it can kill people anywhere in the world and apparently it doesn't expect people to get angry or to fight back!
PS I think your English is much better.
Adriaan Braam 20+
As you know there are many different Christian denominations. I was wondering if there are also many Muslim interpretations of the Quran. Then the concept of "Jihad" could also have very different interpretations, and thus applications, which might make it hard to see how much 'truth' is in each different approach.
I believe that every Revelation has its levels and periods in which it works and makes people better human beings. But over time those interpretations (believe systems) deteriorate and come to an end. The 'flood' (of evil, not water) being one. Another on that list is the first coming of God, 2000 years ago, and the last one is His Second coming about 250 years ago (in the spirit and that is how we see the writings 'through' Swedenborg).
Humanity keeps falling back to the focusing on self. We don't need a God, especially now with science being so up-front and successful on the material level, we can do anything! Just give us time and we'll be just as infinite :)