- Amr Salah
- Alexandria, Egypt
- Egypt
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Aren't Christianity, Judaism and Islam basically the same? How much archaeological evidence is there of similar teachings in the past?
Among countless arguments that keep recurring almost on a daily basis, specially in the middle-east, many are centered around the constant conflict between the Abrahamic religions. I found it strange that whole centuries were not enough for humans to reach some conclusions, perhaps because we are all, to some extent, biased. People simply ignored, and in some cases resented, what they didn't konw. The media played a significant role in further increasing the gap using inflaming language, fabricated and biased news while ignoring or hiding historic and concrete facts altogether.
Apparently, Jews denied Christians and Muslims, Christians denied Muslims and Jews, and Muslims denied Christians and Jews. Nowadays, many people are conditioned to take sides without even thinking. One puzzling point is that some people turned other religions to a forbidden knowledge instead of encouraging people to know. Thus, they seem to prefer keeping people ignorant rather than letting them form an opinion on their own.
I don't know if someone has contributed to any sort of worldwide work that deals with the basic similarities between the Abrahamic religions, specially the beliefs. Thus, I invite everyone who is willing to share what they know about: the similarities between the Abrahamic religions, the archaeological evidence regarding them and what you think whether any human, organization or government nowadays has any right to turn any of the Abrahamic religions to a forbidden knowledge.
elizabeth muncey 10+
Amr Salah
Also, probably you have noticed that the biggest part of the scientific research of super powers is about developing war toys that are more capable of destroying cities and killing people.
Do you think it is possible for religion to coexist with evidence-based scientific progress?
They don't have to contradict because the goal of both, science and religion, is to reach the truth, right?
elizabeth muncey 10+
John Moonstroller 20+
I'll let TED decide.
Amr Salah
My opinions and comments represented my side only. It was never my intention to disrespect any rule or any person. I thought my opinion, whether it was right or wrong, can add to the discussion.
All the comments and opinions are respected and appreciated (while considering my request earlier of using "respectful language when arguing about God, angels, prophets, or Books." - which is a fair request, I think).
If I did or said something wrong, or disrespectful, please warn me about it.
John Moonstroller 20+
In the USA, we have an understanding that religion and government are to remain separate. This allows for people to have their own private religions practices and government is applied to all of the people without regard to their religion. The USA is a country of many religions, not just one.
In the USA and most other Western countries, we never say it is against the law of god to do this or that. People make the laws, not God. Our fellow citizens in the USA. who practice the religion of Islam understand this. Their religion is not the dominate religion. No Religion in the USA is a dominate religion.
This could be a problem for people who live in Muslim countries where their religion is their Law. It may be the one thing that separates us from them (you) forever. We will never change and we do expect every country in the world that seeks democracy to understand that controlling religious thought in their country is imperative for civilized rule.
We see in the Muslim countries that are protesting today, burning our flag and killing our diplomats and creating mayhem in their countries that they are very far behind the Western world in creating a sense of harmony within their own country and the world. It could be that they are incapable of merging with the rest of the world in a global community because when someone who is nuknowledgeable about their religion makes a certain remark about one of their prophets, they could be jailed or killed.
We find such behavior heinous and uncivilized. No religion in our country acts that way and we have a large Islamic population in the USA.
Amr Salah
I guessed this was what annoyed you but I wasn't sure.
I'll make sure I won't overdo it. Thank you again for the warning.
I'll reply briefly to the points you've mentioned
1. Those who made the film hate the middle-east and want it to be engulfed in chaos.
2. Anger in the Middle-East (and Africa) towards the American Imperialism has very good reasons and very deep roots.
3. "We find such behavior heinous and uncivilized."
I'm not going to reply to this.
I don't blame American citizens for the mistakes of their leaders, generals and politicians.
All human lives are equal. I still hope for justice and peace. I still think dialogues between different civilizations and cultures should continue. I believe people should have all access to the truth and that knowledge should be available to everyone.
What I know is very little and there is very little that I could do.
Amr Salah
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Some had signs saying behead those who insult the Prophet.
I support freedom of religion up to the point it harms other people.
I also don't think it wise to be stupidly provocative. However, why should people who do not believe in yur religion be punished for breaking one of your religions taboos?
You mention US imperialism. The native Americans copped worse than the middle East. Also Islamic forces in the past conquered other's lands. Also I guess the coptics in Egypt have had a hard time too.
By reacting to this video Muslims are doing exactly what the filmer wanted.
Ken brown 30+
Amr Salah
I heard Christian Egyptians saying those who insulted the prophet must be beheaded. They understand that those who made the film hate Egypt and Egyptians. They know that those who made the film want evil to Egypt and to the middle-east. They know the film makers wanted to spread hatred and chaos.
"By reacting to this video Muslims are doing exactly what the filmer wanted."
Not reacting is just as bad if not worse.
It should have been peaceful protests, but I guess some think this would not be enough. They have good reasons to think so. Also, some people (from all sides) probably desire this to escalate, not necessarily with good intentions.
And yes, people here pay the worst price for the conspiracies made "there". I read a text before by an American encouraging selling weapons to the middle-east so that people would be killed and thus the world will be "less populated".
Ken brown 30+
You're English is better than mine.
Amr Salah
I don't think my English is good. You are already good and you can easily get better if you made it a primary goal to achieve.
Jake Frackson
In the Islamic faith they believe that their god, Allah in arabic, is dependant on the Muslim people. Allah needs his people and his people need him. Their doctrines also differ but you can learn more on a simple wikipedia page.
In Judaism, Yahweh stands alone. Yahweh is creator of all and is separate from man. Yahweh created man out of his own grace, he is not reliant on his people, but they are reliant on him.
In Christianity, a trinity is formed from Yahweh. Yahweh becomes three parts in order to atone for the first covenant (somebody pure must die to atone for the sin): the father (Yahweh), the son (Jesus, or more accurately Yeshua) and the holy spirit or ghost. These three god heads illustrate a different theological dynamic in that God is divine (Yahweh), God is with us (Holy Spirit) and God is our saviour (Jesus).
Once again, more can be found out about the technical differences on wikipedia or another source, but theistically, this is a simplified version.
Amr Salah
Welcome to the discussion and thanks for your comment.
Amr Salah
!!! You're saying something seriously wrong...
God created life and death. God created the universe. How did it come to your imagination that the Creator needs people?
Don't you know that we existed only because God created us?
Don't you know that the moment we die we take nothing of all that we thought we owned? We owned nothing, not even our lives. We thank God for being able to pray and for being able to thank.
All earthly life (all people and the whole universe) is not worth even a wing of a mosquito to God.
...
I testify that what you said is wrong.
If you don't believe in God, then how did you become alive? Who brought you to life? Where were you before you were born and where will you go after you die?
Jake Frackson
What I was saying is that Allah is dependant on his people. In the Islamic stories, it says that Allah created life but it also sets up the theistic paradigm in such a way that Allah could not exist without his people. Allah is only one half of the equation, he is dependant.
Amr Salah
There is One Creator. He is Allah, the One and Only. He is the Eternal, Absolute. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him.
"... that Allah could not exist without his people."
This is not right. Please let me correct it.
I don't know how or where you got this concept from. It is not Islamic. If it is in a curriculum, then this curriculum needs to be corrected. If you read it in a book, then the book needs to be corrected.
The whole world did not exist until God made it exist, and the whole world will no longer exist if it is ordered to not exist.
Why do you think all people die if God needs people to exist?
It is people and all creatures that are "dependant". Our existence is by the command and Mercy of God. Any who is (so) grateful does so to the profit of his own soul: but if any is ungrateful, verily Allah is free of all wants, Worthy of all praise.
elizabeth muncey 10+
elizabeth muncey 10+
Obey No1kinobe 50+
In fact tired of any religion thinking they have some special insight into absolute truth.
elizabeth muncey 10+
elizabeth muncey 10+
Obey No1kinobe 50+
The latter 2 are certainly derivative of the first.
They borrow the origin stories but have a different picture of what god is and what he is telling us.
Yahew is different to the Trinity Christian god. To Jews, the Christian belief overlay is a false revelation. Jesus is not an aspect of God.
Allah is also not part of a trinity and no longer just focused on the chosen people. Both Jews and Christians refute the Muslim revelations.
All 3 have different ideas of what god is, what he did, what he has told us etc.
Actually further bogus revelations (they are all bogus in my view) have further changed god - Swedebborgs, The Jehovahs witnesses, Christian Science, Latter day saints, Moonies etc perhaps Bahai. These are also Abrahamic derivatives. Perhaps more recent, less popular, with the bogus nature of their origins better understood, but are just as valid or invalid as the earlier 3.
If you back to the earliest foundations of all these Yahweh is a rascist, genocide, monster. Asking Abrahamic religions to get along ignores the foundation god. Yahweh the tribal war god, city destroying, plague sending, global flooding divine dictator.
Wouldn't it be better to appeal to our common humanity rather than similarities in superstitious beliefs?
Empathy for fellow humans is better when free from religious dogma and superstition,
Helen Hupe 30+
Gabo Moreno 100+
Helen Hupe 30+
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Amr Salah
Actually, there is a lot to consider.
It's obvious that all humans, families, tribes, nations (and now the billions of people populating earth) branched from one male and one female.
Religion played an essential, and a significant, part in all the ancient civilizations (as far as I know). How did all the civilizations reach a similar concept (to some degree) about religion even though some civilizations were isolated from others by natural barriers?
It's not only the same ancestor, Abraham, pbuh, that the Abrahamic religions have in common. Check the location where the Abrahamic religions originated. They seem to have all originated from the center of the land (if all the continents had been a single continent one day). Is there a scientific explanation why Saudi Arabia and the countries next to it have much of the world's reserve of oil?
Obey No1kinobe 50+
All the evidence we have points to species evolving in population groups.
It may be our ancestors might have been a small group at one time.
Also, certain individuals who had many offspring might have a surprisingly high % of human descendants e.g. Ghengis Khan.
We don't know if Abraham in the Torah was a real person or mythical.
You are relying on Faith and in some cases denying science and a lack of evidence.
Religion played an important role. I'm not sure if it was essential. It is not essential today.
Wow. Do you really believe there is a connection between oil and god's Muslim revelation?
Does it say in the Qu'ran that god made his revelations on lakes of black gold etc.
I guess the Australians could say the same about having most the world's Uranium, Iron Ore and Coal. Why do some regions have more of a particular resource than others. Luck.
I could say god hates Saudi Arabia, obviously because it has such low rainfall.
I could say god must love the US as they are the richest most powerful nation. 100 years ago I could say god loves England as they were the richest and most powerful. God loves Japan the most as they have the longest lifespans. Can you see the logic fail arbitrarily attributing a cause to an outcome.
Sorry Amr, but that claim is a logic fail. Think about it. Serious cognitive bias. This is typical of intuitive religious thinking.
Amr Salah
"It is not obvious that we came from one male and female."
Ok. Do you have an alternative theory that you may suggest?
All humans seem to be of the same species, as far as I know. If a theory suggests that humans populated the earth by other means (like evolution etc), there should have been many different kinds and versions of humans, which is not true. I don't see humans with wings anywhere. :) There are only "human" humans.
"It may be our ancestors might have been a small group at one time."
And how did they preserve the unique features of the species? Survival of the fittest? Even though humans are very good at using tools, they don't exactly have the toughest bodies or the best endurance.
"You are relying on Faith and in some cases denying science and a lack of evidence."
True. I've been living for a long time in a world that separates religion from science. Now, I'm trying my best to merge science and religion. I'm only taking my first steps and I admit my ignorance.
"Wow. Do you really believe there is a connection between oil and god's Muslim revelation?"
That's not the point I wanted to make. Could the oil be an evidence that a particular land is older or contained older forms of life or more living organisms than other lands?
I understand you have reasons to misjudge my intentions. I respect your opinion.
Amr Salah
John Moonstroller 20+
I've had my say and I will leave it as it is. In my opinion, Islam, like all other religions, will be lumped in with other myths, that have distracted man from his true path of reason, logic, ethics, and social harmony.
Those who truly control the world are not interested in myths. They are interested in progress. Religion has firmly attached itself to the past and will remain in the past as time propels us towards a greater destiny.
If God were to come to this planet and take charge of the activities of people, that would be evidence of God. Everything else we know of religion is nothing but words. Words can have different meanings to different people and evolve to mean different things to future generations. They are not necessarily of themselves a path towards social harmony. Words convey a message. After the message is received the words can be cast aside. To keep these words and attach the notion that the words are worth more than the message is akin to giving words the power of magic.
My final comment on Religion and their bibles is "...from dust they came and to dust they shall return." Time erodes all things including the, so called, words of God. Those that believe in Bibles, will dwell in the same dust.
Amr Salah
I believe any thing we do with good intentions, no matter how small or insignificant it is, helps humanity become better. We are responsible only for our deeds. Life is short and we try to make our best with what we have.
"...from dust they came and to dust they shall return."
Doesn't this mean that our choices and deeds during the short period we live is what makes one person different from another?
Don't many different kinds of plants and trees (with different colors, shapes and fruits) depend on the same land and the same water?
"Set forth to them the similitude of the life of this world: It is like the rain which we send down from the skies: the earth's vegetation absorbs it, but soon it becomes dry stubble, which the winds do scatter: it is (only) Allah who prevails over all things." 18.45
"That which is on earth we have made but as a glittering show for the earth, in order that We may test them - as to which of them are best in conduct. Verily what is on earth we shall make but as dust and dry soil (without growth or herbage)." 18.7,8
John Moonstroller 20+
We are what we do, not what we proclaim to do, not what we intend to do, or dream of doing.
When we can see the vision of those things which draw us together as human beings and make them a part of our philosophy of life; we will mature. When we can see those things which push us apart and throw them into the desert of stubble; we will mature.
But right now we are children squabbling for our fair share of the world and the toys we play with are the lives of others. We need to grow up.
Religion has had it's time in the minds of men and nothing has come of it. It is time to move on to other things and try other methods that may lead us to living together in harmony.
John Moonstroller 20+
That's why you have Jews (Those who believe in Judaism, not to be confused with Israeli people), Muslims (those who believe in Islam), and Christians (those who believe in the New Testament and Christianized Jewish writings).
The one thing the Jews and Muslims have in common is the One God testament. The Christians have three gods, the son the father and the Holy ghost.
Amr Salah
Welcome back to the discussion and thank you for your comment.
I think there are many similiarities between the Abrahamic religions. I think several doors and channels should be kept open between people with different beliefs and that unbiased knowledge about Abrahamic religions should be available to everyone. The primary goal of this discussion was to help even though what I know is very little.
I plan to reply to your comment as soon as I have a chance. I wanted to discuss something based on a previous comment you have made about Abraham's - pbuh - story.
John Moonstroller 20+
Amr Salah
I'll quote passages from Qura'n. (because Muslims know about Abraham, and other prophets, peace be upon them, mainly from Qur'an)
Amr Salah
- Also, I noticed there are strange things mentioned (?) in Talmud. What do you think about Talmud, generally?
John Moonstroller 20+
While there was war waged by the Jews in ancient times against those who did not practice the Jewish Religion, such tactics are considered unholy by Jews today. Jews are aligned into different sects, just as it is in the Christian, Islamic religions. So there is a difference of opinion in how to practice some of the teachings but they do not kill one another over the differences.
Islam, makes no distinction about using violence in the modern world against those who would practice another religion or make disdainful comments about their holy book or it's author, Mohammad.
In Islam, there are more than one way of interpreting the Qura'n. They assimilate themselves into sects and wage war upon each other. Why do they do this? Why did they kill the Ambassador from the United States in Lybia when he had nothing to do with that film? He was a good man and loved Islamic people. Why are Islamic people so prone to violence?
Amr Salah
My deepest condolences are to the Ambassador's family.
However, I have nothing to say to any American leader, government, administration or politician. We don't need to commemorate the bloodsheds, wars, invasions, and occupation carried by the American, NATO and Israeli troops for the past 60 years, but we didn't forget.
The Muslim World did not forget the West's crimes in Palestine, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan… The American administration should stop the bloody hypocrisy already. They cannot sweet-talk the prey while stabbing it in the back over and over. The West doesn't care about human lives in the middle-east, or anywhere else. The West cares only about the West's interests.
That film has offended the Muslim world. Mohammed, pbuh, is the last prophet, we believe. Just as Moses, pbuh, has led the Jews to freedom, Mohammed, pbuh, has led Arabs to freedom. God willing, Mohammed, pbuh, united the Arab world, and the tyranny of the Roman Empire was overthrown. Qur'an is the Words of God, we believe. Qur'an is the guide and light that was sent to all people.
"Now hath come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful." 9.128
"Whatever is in the heavens and on earth, doth declare the Praises and Glory of Allah,- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Exalted in Might, the Wise. It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;-" 62.1,2
Amr Salah
"And when there comes to them a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognised, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.
Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls, in that they deny (the revelation) which Allah has sent down, in insolent envy that Allah of His Grace should send it to any of His servants He pleases: Thus have they drawn on themselves Wrath upon Wrath. And humiliating is the punishment of those who reject Faith." 2.89,90
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I guess most religious beliefs think their conflicting religious beliefs are sacred and the truth.
Just some cultures and religions are more likely to be violent due to religious motivations.
Sad when people think their faith based religious beliefs are more sacred than human life.
People who kill in a gods name have given themselves to evil.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I think many in the middle east are justified in their resentment against the US etc for many things.
They should also resent theocracy, religious intolerance, arab dictators and kings etc.
The cycle of vendetta can go on for ever.
The handover of half of Palestine to the Jews was one of the great atrocities of the 20th Century in my view and an inappropriate response to the European Holocaust.
The powerful will always try to take what they can. The oppressed will resent.
If the oppressed in the middle east want to win over moderate support in the west you don't do it by killing people for religious reasons. There are plenty of more justified oppressions than attacking freedom of speech. You will always lose that battle. This just builds on the stereotypes that that part of the world is ruled by a barbaric religion.
Killing people in gods name is a lose lose.
Look at Ghandi. Look at Nelson Mandela. That is how you win against the West. And also having nuclear weapons. Become strong but also pick your battles and appeal to secular values of fairness, equality etc.
Sure there is bias and fundamentalism and self interest on both sides. Also I guess some of the violence may be using religious offence as a cover. Also I have difficulty understanding the depth of religious offence that would trigger violence when I think all religions are man made and false. I guess I would fight to protect freedom from religion, democracy, freedom of speech, freedom from oppression etc
From the outside the middle east often seems to swap one form of oppression - Ottomans, European Colonial Powers, USA backed dictators for religious oppression.
I wonder how many people in Eqypt would prefer a secular government/leadership and freedom of and from religion, and how many want a Muslim State.
Honestly people who want theocracy baffle me. I guess we can all be programmed differently depending on our experience and upbringing.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Why do so many religious people think they have a right to force their faith based unsubstantiated beliefs on everyone one else?
If you think adultery is deserving of death, then kill yourself if you commit adultery. Don't go around killing others.
Why should we be threatened with death and violence if we say something that is offensive to your religious sensibilities. On what basis is it ever justified to kill because someone said something that offends?
If you make an exception or excuses for your religion than the same logic applies to evangelicals who support Israel and Jewish settlers building in Palestine. Their religious belief is their justification.
Religion should not be an excuse.
Amr Salah
Nothing justifies the attack on the embassy, the loss of lives or the damage to the properties that happened.
I won't be surprised if this was carried out by men of Gaddafi's regime.
Also, don't forget that there are Atheists, Christians, Jews and Muslims who would just love to see a Holy War or a World War III.
Those who made the film did not have good intentions. They invested much effort and time to make it with the sole purpose of attacking Islam. They chose this specific timing to broadcast the film on purpose. They wanted to intensify the conflict. They wanted to spread hatred. They want the middle-east to be burnt to ashes. They want to see people of all religions and nationalities suffering and dying.
There was no reason for any hostile reaction and certainly there was no reason for any clashes or killing. Yes, peaceful protests were very important to show what we felt. Yes, Muslims believe in Islam and believe Mohammed, pbuh, is the last prophet. We believe in all prophets and we respect all prophets, and we expect the same respect from others.
The West may cut our tongues, but they can never change what's in our hearts. We believe Islam is the truth.
I don't see any reason for the Arab governments to be very cooperative with American administration. Perhaps if they start to treat people equally, there could be hope for real cooperation. There were so many times when the NATO strikes killed whole families in Afghanistan. Is the ambassador's life more precious than civilians in Afghainstan or Syria?
Isn't it hypocrisy to talk about one person's life and forget the thousands?
"wouldn't we all be better off if religion become more of a private affair and not become political?"
I believe religion is meant to preserve human life and to ensure justice and equality. I believe religion ensures peace and balance of the world. I believe religion would help the world. This is my dream.
I understand you have reasons to disagree.
E G 10+
Amr Salah
Welcome to the discussion.
While I agree there are fundamental differences between the Abrahamic religions, I think they have a lot more in common than ethics.
Actually, I think they represent a single entity with the title "Abrahamic religions" that's uniqely different from almost everything else that humans have known, with a few exceptions. Also, their effect on humanity have been of a major scale and magnitude.
They are like branches of the same tree, in many ways.
elizabeth muncey 10+
Amr Salah
Thank you for your comment.
" I believe so many of the spiritual texts are about the most appropriate balance in human relationships and in environmental management but they are out of date."
I agree that the many of the spiritual texts aim for balance and justice. I'm not sure how they could become outdated or no longer valid. The rules that govern both humans and life on earth did not change. Perhaps some values changed, (for example, temperature, average lifetime etc..) but not the rules themselves . Our tools have developed greatly, of course, thanks to the technological advancement, but I don't think we changed. Our needs, motives and behaviours are perhaps similar to the first humans. I think spiritual texts regulate our needs, motives and behaviours, among other things. Thus, they can't get old, unless they're not applied properly, or they didn't ensure true justice and balance due to some bias.
- Why couldn't we achieve a true model of balance and justice after all this time of populating earth?
I find many examples in history of people who preferred dominance and superiority to balance and justice. The moment they move away from maintaining balance, they start becoming illogical, and then they start using communication methods that involve violence. I think this is the reason of the conflict. It is exactly the same like it started with Cain and Abel. This explanation could be wrong, of course. What do you think?
- Do we, humans, want balance and justice? How many would vote "YES" for this question and would it be their true answer?
"It is in the balance and the reflecting upon the possible messages in the texts rather than blindly acting upon the texts that I hope answers and co-operation may be found."
I think the same. I should add that balance and justice should be humans' goal, not superiority and dominance.
It's injustice that causes the middle-east to bleed. Super Powers do not seem to want justice. Thus, the bleeding may never stop.
elizabeth muncey 10+
Feyisayo Anjorin 50+
Amr Salah
Welcome to the discussion and thanks for your comment.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Imagining Hindu deities engaged in your life, is also not religion.
Talking with Bodhisattva's or gods, that is not religion.
Imagining the Mormon god as your friend, that is not religion.
Inviting fertility gods into your life, that is not religion.
Having a relationship with nature spirits, or ghosts or other gods is not religion.
So the moral views and spiritual assumptions, connected with these beliefs, none of that is religion.
When you pray or talk with your deity, that is not religion.
So your idea that Jesus is god or the son of god, that is not a religious belief?
What is your definition of a religion? Any religion except Christianity.
Better give up the tax breaks then.
Gail . 50+
Muslims Holy day is Friday. Jews = Saturday. Muslims are to pray 5 times a day. Jews only 3. Dietary laws are the same except that Muslims must say Allah during the ritual slaughter. Other differences are differences of custom such as dress. It's no wonder that these groups cohabitated mostly peaceably for 1400 years.
So what has happened? FIRST: The British promised Palestine to the Arabs in exchange for their help with England's war against the Ottoman Turks. England went back on its promise.
SECOND: The Versaille Treaty: The Versailles Treaty that broke lands into artificial divisions and forcing incompatible groups to join for the purpose of establishing a united government. Suddenly, incompatible groups (suni and shia for example) were made vulnerable and left feeling threatened. But it did more. It imposed so many economic sanctions on Germany that a Hitler was virtually GUARANTEED to rise.
ONE of the several groups that Hitler targeted, with extermination in mind, were the Jews. Jews were hated throughout Europe and America. NO one would take them in. When WWII was over, if people really wanted Jews to have a homeland, they should have given them resource rich Germany. But England, France, and other major players didn't want Jews in their back yard, so they were encouraged to go to Palestine, that had been promised to the Arabs at great cost to life
Now we have Arabs and Jews, who are natural allies, fighting among themselves. As to Christians, that's a different story indeed. Most of the 37,000 denominations are incompatible with Judaism or Islam, even though Maimonides & Muhammed speaks like Jesus.
Now all 3 religions have become perversions of something beautiful.
Amr Salah
Thanks for your comment. I learnt from it many facts I didn't know.
That part of history that you've mentioned is something we pay for all our lives, specially Palestinians.
Gail . 50+
Anil Goel
Really? You really believe in such a coordinated manipulation? Any sources?
Forgive me, but it sounds like you are making a number of unfounded assumptions to support the Koran, as opposed to examining your stated thread question "aren't C/J/I basically all the same?"
My question to you would be to ask if you have actually read the Jewish or Christian Bibles, and secondly, how would YOU compare it to the Koran.
Comment deleted
Frans Kellner 100+
The similarities you quote are all based upon stories that circulated among the tribes in the Middle East even before one of those books that you name were written.
The origin was much older and are to be found by the Sumerians that invented writing over a thousand years before the Jewish people emerged. Because of that writing they were that widespread.
Mohammed would have heard variations on those stories all over the place.
Christianity has combined those old stories as the Old Testament with the gospels that were based on Greek philosophy in the New Testament. Also from this new thinking, known as gnosis many versions circulated which Mohammed could have heard to make his own version.
Fact is that in all traditions you find constant separations because power was based on believe and many of the powerful used their own interpretation of truth to rule the people.
So it is a bit complicated and to fill in the details one needs to write many books but Mohammed took his interpretation to Medina. Here that view was adopted by the warlord of the place to expand his rule and power, just like Constantine the Great had done by adopting Christianity.
Religion and politics always went hand in hand until it was deliberately separated. But even within a democracy religious groups are trying to manipulate state affairs.
The world would be a better place if those so called monotheistic religions would vanish. Only then Allah would have room to reveal itself.
Amr Salah
Thanks for your comment.
Apparently I deleted my comment at the time you posted yours and I didn't see your comment. It was not intentional, I hope you'd accept my apology.
The deleted comment was a quickly-made list of similarities between the beliefs of the Abrahamic religions.
"Mohammed would have heard variations on those stories all over the place."
This point is arguable. I'd like to discuss it separately in detail.
1. "That one man who received the revelation was illiterate. He spoke only Arabic. He lived all his life in the desert among tribes." (I copied and pasted this part)
2. Bible and Torah were in different languages. Not only would have Mohammed, pbuh, needed to master the other languages, but he would also need to possess a huge library of many of the scripts and religious books. Of course that was impossible at that time.
3. The form of writing of Qur'an is different from all forms of writings of that time and even of the future. Qur'an challenged the masters of this language, Arabic, to come with a similar or better sura, but they failed. Let me copy a translation of some ayas here:
- "Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him." 112.1-4
===== Now, does this look to you like it came from Bible or Torah?
- "A. L. M.;
The Roman Empire has been defeated-
In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-
Within a few years. With Allah is the Decision, in the past and in the Future: on that Day shall the Believers rejoice-
With the help of Allah. He helps whom He will, and He is exalted in might, most merciful.
(It is) the promise of Allah. Never does Allah depart from His promise: but most men understand not.
They know but the outer (things) in the life of this world: but of the End of things they are heedless." 30.1-7
Amr Salah
It is We Who will inherit the earth, and all beings thereon: to Us will they all be returned.
(Also mention in the Book (the story of) Abraham: He was a man of Truth, a prophet.
Behold, he said to his father: "O my father! why worship that which heareth not and seeth not, and can profit thee nothing?
"O my father! to me hath come knowledge which hath not reached thee: so follow me: I will guide thee to a way that is even and straight.
"O my father! serve not Satan: for Satan is a rebel against (Allah) Most Gracious.
"O my father! I fear lest a Penalty afflict thee from (Allah) Most Gracious, so that thou become to Satan a friend."
(The father) replied: "Dost thou hate my gods, O Abraham? If thou forbear not, I will indeed stone thee: Now get away from me for a good long while!"
Abraham said: "Peace be on thee: I will pray to my Lord for thy forgiveness: for He is to me Most Gracious.
"And I will turn away from you (all) and from those whom ye invoke besides Allah: I will call on my Lord: perhaps, by my prayer to my Lord, I shall be not unblest."
When he had turned away from them and from those whom they worshipped besides Allah, We bestowed on him Isaac and Jacob, and each one of them We made a prophet.
And We bestowed of Our Mercy on them, and We granted them lofty honour on the tongue of truth." 19.39-50
I copied these translations of some ayahs of Qur'an, so you'd know what I mean when I say Qur'an is special. You may disagree, of course.
I have many other reasons that make me believe in Mohammed, pbuh, as a prophet, but it would take time to list them.
Amr Salah
The consistency between prophets is not due to "coordinated manipulation". It is because of the consistency of what the prophets said (because they said the truth). I didn't mean that "prophets" made the changes. Prophets corrected what was changed, and reminded people of the original teachings. (because prophets guide people) I was talking about changes made by people after prophets died or when no prophets were around.
"My question to you would be to ask if you have actually read the Jewish or Christian Bibles"
I did not read Jewish or Christian Bibles.
Most of what I know about Torah and Bible is either through Qur'an, or through general information. I know about Judaism only and mainly through what was said in Qur'an. My question was based on a presumption that they are similar. My presumption can be disputed.
"how would YOU compare it to 'Qur'an'."
I don't think it is possible for "me" to do a comprehensive and accurate comparison.
For the detailed comparison to take place, it would need a team of scholars, a wide range of books and very extensive knowledge, including knowledge about Bible, Qur'an and Torah and several languages.
The comparison that's within "my" capacity is based on what I know from Qur'an and my general knowledge or what I can learn directly or indirectly about Bible and Torah. It would be based on my presumption that the three Abrahamic religions are consistent with each other.
I hope this answers your questions. Sorry about my previous replies that missed your point again.
Frans Kellner 100+
Your argument why Mohammed couldn't learn from hearsay isn't much convincing.
As Mohammed led the trade caravan for what would become his first wife he traveled far and wide and met merchants from all directions. They communicated with a common language.
That you need to be literate to remember a lot of facts isn't true. It is observed that Maoris’ for instance can remember vast amounts of knowledge just from hearing. With writing we didn't develop this capacity anymore.
Arabs have a specific way of telling and use of language and in this way he translated his knowledge.
The way he describes Allah isn't different from the most high in any other religion. It could account for Brahma within the Indian faith as well as you leave the gender out.
Amr Salah
"Your argument why Mohammed couldn't learn from hearsay isn't much convincing."
I thought so. It was made in a hurry. It would take more effort than this for it to be convincing. Thanks for taking the time to read my reply.
I'll need a day or two to make a more specific list with more reasons. I hope it's ok; I'd be glad to do it.
Probably you know that many books have been written about this.
Sorry that I copied somewhat lengthy translated parts, but they could be useful to present the way Qur'an was different from other writings of Arabs. It was not poetry (which Arabs mastered at that time) and it was special in its own way.
- The part copied about the description of God shows the difference of belief from Torah and Bible.
- The part copied about Rome mentions that Rome will be victorious after they were defeated. It did happen around that time. I'll check a history book for the specific dates and details.
- The part copied about Abraham, pbuh, is one of the instances that mention Abraham's story in Qur'an. I copied it for comparison of style of stories.
Anil Goel
There were many writings/letters/epistles written at the time, and I went thru the processes leading up to recognition of the final canon. The general rule was if there was any doubt to anything written, toss it out. I am quite satisfied with the reliability of the Scriptures. Koranic allegations to the contrary have been fairly superficial, and have never really passed an objective smell test.
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ" is God's final word to man, and His return is the next event to look forward to.
Amr Salah
I've checked some books, but this is more time-consuming than I thought.
Thus, I'll try to answer based on my reasoning and I'll use quotes from a translation of Qur'an as evidence to support my points. I hope it's ok. Since my reasoning can be wrong, you're welcome to dispute it.
"The origin was much older and are to be found by the Sumerians that invented writing over a thousand years before the Jewish people emerged."
I noticed your explanation of the origin is based on a theory you have. Is the theory based on the invention of writing alone? Writing has been used by several civilizations. I think writing could be regarded a context or medium for preserving and delivering information. I hope you would say more about the theory and any evidence available.
=====
"Mohammed would have heard variations on those stories all over the place."
"As Mohammed led the trade caravan for what would become his first wife he traveled far and wide and met merchants from all directions. They communicated with a common language."
The two points seem correct. Mohammed, pbuh, could have heard variations of those stories.
- It can be said that Qur'an is combined of belief, stories (of prophets), and sharia.
Suras of Qur'an are completely consistent and its unity can be strongly felt from the first word to the last. For this reason it's very difficult, or perhaps impossible, to claim it had several sources or different authors.
- If it's assumed that Mohammed, pbuh, had access to the stories through hearsay, it should be assumed that his people had the same access. However, those who rejected Qur'an of his people at that time made different claims. It's obvious that the words of Qur'an were something completely new to them. Here is a number of the claims they made:
Amr Salah
1- "It is not the word of a poet: little it is ye believe!" "Nor is it the word of a soothsayer: little admonition it is ye receive." "(This is) a Message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds." 69.41-43
=====
It was something they've never witnessed or heard before that they claimed it was some kind of magic used on them.
2- "So they wonder that a Warner has come to them from among themselves! and the Unbelievers say, "This is a sorcerer telling lies!" 38.4
"But when the Truth came to them, they said: "This is sorcery, and we do reject it." 43.30
=====
This is similar to how different people of past nations regarded prophets as mentioned in several stories:
3- "Similarly, no messenger came to the Peoples before them, but they said (of him) in like manner, "A sorcerer, or one possessed"!" 51.52
=====
They denied they have ever heard this before from their ancestry.
4- ""We never heard (the like) of this among the people of these latter days: this is nothing but a made-up tale!"" 38.7
=====
They claimed he made it up. Qur'an challenged them to make up 10 suras (and later on 1 sura or even 10 ayas) if they can. They failed.
5- "Or they may say, "He forged it," Say, "Bring ye then ten suras forged, like unto it, and call (to your aid) whomsoever ye can, other than Allah!- If ye speak the truth!" 11.13
=====
Here is a reminder that Mohammed, pbuh, was among them for a long time and he never said anything like Qur'an.
6- "Say: "If Allah had so willed, I should not have rehearsed it to you, nor would He have made it known to you. A whole life-time before this have I tarried amongst you: will ye not then understand?"" 10.16
=====
Anil Goel
I like your honesty!
I have read the Koran, the Jewish writings and the Christian Bible, although I admit the Koran was quite a while ago. The OT is actually included in its entirety as part of the Christian Bible, for they use the OT as a founding basis to show continuity into the God's plan of salvation. If you read the NT, you will notice the heavy reliance on the OT, not to sway people from one faith to another, but to show that the two are part and parcel of one same plan.
I see Revelation, the last book in the NT, as the end point of the redemption thread started in Genesis, the first book in the OT. The Koran is a sharp contrast to that continuity, and as I said before, failed to convince me of its greater authoritative and ability to wipe out the entire plan revealed in the the NT resurrection. Your reading from only the Koran's perspective will NEVER let you see beyond the Koran's depiction of Jesus as another prophet.
Unless you intend to stay with the Koran regardless of what you find, my suggestion would be to be willing to see it from a non-Koranic view. Unfortunately, there is much misleading information out there, and my personal preference is to start by reading the actual documents without a hundred people telling me what is written/said. Your path will be determined by your true heart's intent - I offer you sincere prosperity and good wishes in your search.
Amr Salah
Thanks for your reply and for your good wishes.
"The Koran is a sharp contrast to that continuity"
You mean because it didn't rely on OT and NT?
It's mentioned several times in Qur'an that we believe in all the Books.For exmaple,
- "Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)." 3.84
- Question: Is the Bible of nowadays exactly the same as it was when Jesus, pbuh, was present? My question is to you.
It's very possible that I would read the Bible. However, the reason for reading would be to check the differences and similarities between the Bible and Qur'an, and to see what I could learn from it. As for my belief, it won't change.
I believe in Allah and his prophet, Mohammed, pbuh. I believe in Islam with both my mind and heart. My mind shows me plenty of reasons that Islam guides humanity to what's best. My heart tells me every word I read in Qur'an is true, and that whatever I do, my God sees all, hears all and knows all.
"Say: "Verily, my Lord hath guided me to a way that is straight,- a religion of right,- the path (trod) by Abraham the true in Faith, and he (certainly) joined not gods with Allah."
"Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds: No partner hath He: this am I commanded, and I am the first of those who bow to His will."
Frans Kellner 100+
You dumped a lot of text to prove your point, little convincing though.
About the Sumerians: this is no theory but factual.
Stories about Adam and Eve as well as the great flood were circulating several thousand years before the Jews wrote it down in their sacred book.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Gilgamesh,_Epic_of
Even Abraham could have his origin among them.
The comments on the Koran have little value.
Common people didn't travel much and wide.
Trade routes became longer while the collapse of the Roman Empire left a power vacuum.
The Koran gave the tribes a new shared identity wherewith their might and self-confidence made it possible to conquer Damascus and further. The power of Byzantium was broken by the Arab successes. So nothing stood in the way to conquer Northern Africa and the Middle East.
That is up till they met the heritage of the Western Roman Empire represented by the pope in the West and strong civilizations in the East like Indian and Chinese.
Moses gave an identity to the Jews, Paul gave an identity to the Christians and Mohammed to the Muslims. By uniting them as one people those peoples gained power that was in turn used by politics like David, Constantine and Omar.
Amr Salah
"Stories about Adam and Eve as well as the great flood were circulating several thousand years before the Jews wrote it down in their sacred book." - "The origin was much older and are to be found by the Sumerians"
Why couldn't it be even before the Sumerians? Why couldn't it have originated from real events?
What if parts of the Sumerians' written version were based on some real events, but had many exaggerations, misconceptions and lies in it?
My previous reply showed partly how some people of that time, when Islam emerged, reacted to what Mohammed, pbuh, told them. Many of them were merchants and most people in this region, I think, were used to travelling because of the nature of the land. This does not explain how Mohammed, pbuh, was different from all of them unless there was a good reason. He wasn't the first in history to have this role.
Prophets were humans. Some may think prophets simply happened to be wiser, or had more knowledge, somehow, than others and thus they became leaders and had more influence. I believe they were prophets and they were chosen and all this was fated to happen.
The Bible, Qur'an and Torah are in comprehensible human languages. They are words of languages people know. Some may regard them as 'text', but I'd regard them as holy Books that are not human-made. I have my reasons for my belief. You may have reasons to think differently.
"Trade routes became longer while the collapse of the Roman Empire left a power vacuum. The Koran gave the tribes a new shared identity wherewith their might and self-confidence made it possible to conquer Damascus and further."
This explanation doesn't mean all this was a coincidence. Yes, it happened by means we understand. "The new shared identity" changed people, united them and changed human history. Many people, from many different times, cultures and countries, found the truth in Islam. Once they found the truth, they abandoned all the worthless lies. They changed for ever.
Frans Kellner 100+
Quote: "The general rule was if there was any doubt to anything written, toss it out." (writings/letters/epistles)
Who was there to decide? This was pure politics to unite some large groups with different views on the wholy trinity and if Jesus was son of God and by this himself God or not.
They were complete erroneous and didn't understand much of the teachings that were ascribed to a man called Jesus. If you really dug into it, problems with translation, selecting what suits oneself and faults and additions with transcript, it is a mess.
But you may believe that it's God's word but then by the way, who is God?
Anil Goel
The OT was written by over 30 authors over 1500 years;
the NT was written by 8-10 authors, and
the Koran was written by 1.
Suggesting that the one is more authoritative than the 40 (most of whom could NOT have collaborated over a 1600 year period) and can overturn the writings of so many martyrs (as were most prophets) is to test the credibility of the "new revelation".
Amr Salah
Welcome to the discussion and thanks for your comment.
That one man who received the revelation was illiterate. He spoke only Arabic. He lived all his life in the desert among tribes.
Islam has united the tribes and it has spread vastly in a very short period. All people who became Muslims or lived under Islamic rule accepted the code (or laws) of Islam. Mohammed, pbuh, asked people to abandon worshipping statues, or "persons". He told them that there is only One God Who created heavens and earth. He told them that only faith, patience, righteousness and good deeds that may make one person better than another. People were freed from the lies. They started to realize that what Mohammed, pbuh, said was the truth. They testified that he was an honest man and that he has always said the truth, but many refused to abandon the lies they were living.
At one of the times, two persons were in a cave, while people gathered right above them searching for them in order to kill them. One of these two persons is the prophet that over a billion of Muslims now follow. This was not the only or the first time the tribes tried to kill him. But, he continued to live until his message was complete and Islam survived all the perils until this day. Some of the first Muslims were tortured and some were killed. They had to leave their homes and families and abandon all they had.
Notice a part of the treaty signed when Egypt was freed from the Romans' tyranny 1400 years ago:
"In the name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful, this is the amnesty
which 'Amr ibn el-'Asi granted to the people of Misr, as
to themselves, their religion, their goods, their churches
and crosses, their lands and waters: nothing of these
shall be meddled with or minished;"
Lane Poole, A Hisotry of Egypt in the Middle Ages, p. 5
(I copied and pasted this)
According to what we believe, there won't be any new prophets coming. Also, it is believed that Qur'an will be preserved until the end.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Whether it is the supposed revelation of one person or many within a similar culture, revelation does not seem to be a very efficient way of communicating truth from a God if that is what is supposed to be happening.
Funny you are skeptical of each others claims but not your own.
The fact that people die for different beliefs might show they believe in their dfiierent beleifs strongly, but does not make them all true. All these conflicting beliefs can not be true. But they could all be false in their key claims.
Peter Law 30+
You are right that many die for what they believe in; even today. Muslims especially seem prone to this. However many must be mistaken, we can't all be right.
The difference with the new testament Christians was this. Most of them were around when Jesus was crucified. They were either eye witnesses, or knew eye witnesses, to his return from the grave. They died not for what they believed, but for what they knew to be fact. How stupid would you have to be to die for something you knew was a lie?
I was around when we landed on the moon. I visited the capsule when it came to our local transport museum, along with real moon rock. I would be very unlikely to endure pain to substantiate the theory that the moon is made of green cheese, even if that theory had taken hold in the populace.
These guys died for a fact; not a belief. That's the difference.
:-)
Brett Gracey
Amr Salah
"Funny you are skeptical of each others claims but not your own."
Actually, there was a time when I had many questions and I still didn't find answers for some of them until now. I could say that I don't think I would have changed much without that particular "incident" that I've told you about. Things have changed greatly over the past few years. Perhaps I took religion blindly and ignorantly at first when I was younger (and it wasn't entirely my fault), but that's not the case now.
- I have many reasons to believe in Islam that are based on reason and logic. I had to depend on these reasons heavily at first in order to find answers for questions I couldn't answer.
- Reading Qur'an and sunnah were among the strongest reasons because it is a really special experience. Also, for Muslims, they're the main sources of knowledge about Islam.
- Finally, there are reasons that are all based on belief. These were the strongest reasons, but they didn't come first.
My current belief is the fruit of all the different experiences and sources. It's still growing steadily.
=====
--- from your comment below ---
"The Muslims have their own miracles."
True, I didn't mention miracles because I don't think belief should be built on miracles. People used to ask for miracles in the past, and yet, even then, many of them didn't believe. Also, Muslims believe Qur'an is a miracle that will remain.
People have acquired much knowledge nowadays compared to the past (even though what we know is still very little). Nowadays we enjoy greater amount of freedom. It is now easier to find information, and technology has made many difficult tasks easier. I don't think there is anything that hinders anyone from seeking the truth and finding it.
You have time. You have access to information. Also, the laws that govern life wouldn't lie to you. Seek answers in the land, the sea, and the sky, and even ask yourself about the truth. Make it your own personal investigation
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Obviously I'm not convinced that the resurrection occurred. If the bible says there were eye witnesses, that might be enough for you. Not me. I note the oldest gospels were written decades after the fact.
I would not be surprised if someone stole the body if a man called Jesus was .
Seems strange we have no records from the time if something so amazing happened.
The whole story is bizarre. And the creator of the universe expects us to be convinced by just another religious story in this or that book.
Noah was apparently an eye witness to the flood and we have no way to know he existed.
The Muslims have their own miracles. Same with the Mormons and other founders of various religions. I guess you are skeptical about these.I guess you are skeptical about these.
You are probably just as skeptical about Muslim miracles as I am about all of them.
There are gurus in India alive today and thousands of living people claim the gurus have done amazing miracles. I guess you are skeptical about these.
And if you think about it even if Jesus did appear to die and rose again then disappear, there is no reason to assume he is a god, there is no reason to assume everything written in the bible is true, or that everything they wrote after he died was what he would have wanted. Faith. Faith. Faith you apply only to one religion and not others.
It would have been impressive if Jesus or Moses or the Muslim Prophet performed a miracle where the key messages God wanted were instantly created on some exotic indestructible alloy or amazing technology. But no, carved stone, and paper and ink, and in 2/3 of the cases we don't know how long between the claimed evens and the oral stories were created and written down. How mundane.
There is nothing about the books that could not have been made up by men.
You will most likely find the same sort of circle of assumptions in Islam and other religions.
If god wanted to give us a message he could have more effectively.
Anil Goel
You wrote much about your beliefs, but did not really address the point that I made.
Amr Salah
The fact that there were 40 authors, at least, over 1600 years means that people needed that many prophets. This means that people did make changes and alterations to the original texts time after time. It also means that people forgot or abandoned some practices of religion over time. Thus, they needed more prophets to come to remind and correct them.
This one person, or the last prophet as Muslims believe, came after all the previous prophets with what is consistent with what was said in Torah and Bible. It is testified that no alterations and no changes were made to Qur'an over the last 1400 years, even though several divisions appeared among Muslims. Perhaps now there is no real need now for new prophets to come. Perhaps Qur'an has spread vastly because truth doesn't need evidence more than being told even if it was told by one person. Perhaps now it is about personal judgment and whether one would believe Qur'an or not.
I hope I didn't miss the point again.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
If Buddhist scriptures said a miraculous event happened, and that there were 10,000 eye witnesses, and even listed their names, was recorded at the time, and this was an instrumental event in the development of the religion, perhaps even resulting in their persecution, I suspect you would be sceptical. Especially if it were not mentioned in any other historical records or there was no way to verify it.
I vaguely recall at some point god's voice is supposed to have been been heard by the whole nation. That's a lot of ear witnesses. And yet we have no way of verifying it happened.
I suggest if you really unpack your arguments about the resurrection miracle they are not so different to other biblical miracles or the miracles in other religions.
I also remember arguing the same points you do and wanting to believe the resurrection was slam dunk incontestable evidence. But when I looked at it with an open mind I saw it could have happened, but it is far from conclusive, unless you make all sorts of assumptions that you wouldn't with some other belief system. For starters you don't know what is made up and what people honestly believed occurred and there is no way to reasonably verify it.
Rationally it almost beggars belief that the creator of the universe relies on the Koran and Bible to get an important message across that may result in eternal damnation.
If you make an extraordinary claim you need extraordinary evidence, and a holy book saying it happened and was witnesses by lots of people doesn't come close. There are living people who believe they have been abducted by aliens. I guess many are sincere. However, we don't just take their word for it.
You can believe something extraordinary happened if you want, but you are perhaps being deceived if you believe it is incontestable and verified beyond reasonable doubt.
Same with the miracles of any belief system I have come across.
Amr Salah
Many Muslims suggest that if you instinctively knew what's good and bad yet you had no access at all to any Holy Book all your life, you would be judged justly according to the circumstances. I think it may be possible for people living in very isolated locations, like islands, to somehow realize that there is a Superior Force that created earth, heavens and all the living creatures.
However, if there is access to Qur'an and yet it was denied, or simply avoided it, then there is a reason for blame.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Even in the 21st century people are flying planes into buildings and decapitating people for going to a dance party or being gay, and religious belief is part of the mix.
It is not hard to imagine people killing and dying for their beliefs even if they are not well founded in our more ignorant past.
There were centuries and centuries of death and destruction in Europe as various Christian sects fought and dies for denominational beliefs. None saw the resurrection. We see the same thing with Shiite and Sunni's.
I know the resurrection is a foundation belief for many Christians, but there is no convincing proof it happened today and the claims of eye witnesses and sacrifice in the bible do not prove it. I've heard it all before. The false dichotomy that at if he didn't rise then the church would never have started. Who knows what really happened. Perhaps the body hidden etc.
Have you heard the origins and doctrine of the Mormon church or Scientology? It is so unbelievable yet many believe and did at the time just a few hundred years or decades ago. I think you underestimate the power of charismatic individuals like Jesus, Paul, Hitler, Jim Jones, Living Indian Gurus and the founders of most religions or cults, and the weakness humans have for fanatically believing.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
If I was born in predominantly Muslim countries or had Muslim parents there is a much stronger chance
I would be a believer.
I guess luck plays a part in where you will end up in the after life. Hardly fair.
Is there anything in the Qurán that states people live on a remote island. or anywhere outside Saudi Arabia 1400 years ago, will be judged differently. Or that just speculation by believers?
You are also stuffed if the Jews or Christians etc are right. So your odds are 1/thousands of religions, only slightly better than my 0/thousands.
Amr Salah
For example,
"On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns." 2.286
Tell me what you understand from this part of the ayah. Does it sound fair?
It is argued in a book I've read some time ago that if someone was in a place where only Bible was available, then it is assumed he may be judged upon what he had access to. The theory of the remote island is an extension I made up. It is possibly wrong. Judgement will be known only at the day of Judgment.
People are not exactly born in the same circumstances or with the same abilities. Also, being a Muslim (or Christian or Jew) does not mean that one owns a ticket to heaven. It is a lifelong test.
"I guess luck plays a part in where you will end up in the after life. Hardly fair."
More like fate not luck.
- No one chooses his parents.
- No one chooses the time and place he is born, or the time and place he dies.
- No one chooses his abilities or traits.
Yet, at the day of Judgment we'll be all judged justly and equally. If we thought about it with our limited knowledge and understanding, we can imagine some kind of equations or formulas that lead to different outcomes. If things are harder, there is possibly a bigger reward. If things are easier, more responsibilities are expected.
Thus, if things are harder, it may mean a better reward. If things are easier, then one could work harder or do more good deeds etc..
Peter Law 30+
You are certainly stuffed at the moment. I don't know how to answer you.
You may remember I had a discussion on the cure for cancer. Apricot seeds are deemed by many to be of help. My mate has terminal cancer & his wife refuses to let him try the seeds. Ditto the girl next door; her dad Is adamant she's not to take the seeds. My other neighbour is in remission & lost her husband to cancer a couple of years ago, not interested. So my score is 3 - 0 to the skeptics. I just don't get it; the seeds can do no harm, & they might even help, but no-one seems to think it worth the effort (?). Even in the face of death.
I feel the same about you, & others. You just don't see it, & yet, to me, it is so obvious. We don't make the rules; God does. We don't need to like the rules, that is irrelevant. God is the boss, we do what we are told, that's the deal. Don't like it? Too bad, we're stuffed.
:-)
Obey No1kinobe 50+
It's a bit different to trying to believe something you don't actually believe, in fact you think it most likely made up. If there is a God he would know I don't really believe anyway.
Sometimes we are like a mirror to each other - I just don't get how people who think about it realise those who follow other religions have the same conviction. The religious experience is similar. It seems a deeply human mind and emotional phenomena at the least. And belief tends to be driven by luck or fate most often. What you have been exposed to.
I just don't get how people don't know deep in their hearts, if they let themselves reflect, that believing the the stories written in a religious book are true without much evidence is sad. In fact people end up seeing the world through the lens of different religious frame works.
I agree it is what it is. If I believed a religious tradition was likely to be correct I would get involved. I would be lying to myself if I got involved now.
In the end life is what it is and death awaits us in the end. We all muddle our why through it in our own way. The awareness of the end is a both a boon and a curse. It reflects an awareness probably superior to other animals, a richness of experience, an opportunity to reflect and lead a life based on what you think is real. Yet the final curtain awaits us all. We lose family and friends and ultimately our own lives.
If there is a creator god, who made us with an afterlife, I think there is a very good chance it would be at least as compassionate as we are, so do not really think it would send us to hell. Hell is far from all loving.
When I open my heart to other humans, I may not accept all that they do, but I can empathise. We are what we are. I would not punish anyone that severely for there failings in life. I expect god would be even more compassionate.
Peter Law 30+
I understand where you are. My mum was religious, she went to church every Sunday, & was very respectable. I don't think she was a Christian though; she never spoke of Jesus or anything outside of church. She encouraged me to go to church, but only because it was the proper thing to do. I think the vast majority of religious folk are like my mum, whether Christian, Jewish, or Muslim.
My wife & I got married in a registrar's office; no minister involved.
Later in life I came across folks who really believed the bible was literally true. I'd never experienced this before. The bible is full of names, dates, & places; it leaves itself wide open to being falsified. Anyway I couldn't fault it, but found it very relevant. I couldn't be certain, but took up the challenge of seeking with all my heart. I prayed & sought this Jesus to make himself known. He did in due course make Himself known, & now I am as certain as I can be of His existence. I hate to be considered religious. I know my maker, he's my buddy; nothing religious about that.
I agree with you on Hell. I think it's totally OTT. Luckily I don't need to worry about it. I am confident that when I eventually know all the facts, that I will agree with my buddy. I trust Him with all that stuff. If I didn't I would probably nit-pick my way into Hell myself.
I got to the stage where I just had to abandon the "I know best" attitude & fall at His feet. Pride has to go; no-one will have a defence on the Day of Judgement. All this Darwin/Dawkins/Hawkins stuff is interesting conjecture, but the Truth is a matter of life & death.
:-)
Amr Salah
I know your comment was to Obey No1kinobe, but I wanted to let you know I definitely agree with several points you've mentioned:
1. "I think the vast majority of religious folk are like my mum, whether Christian, Jewish, or Muslim."
2. "Pride has to go; no-one will have a defence on the Day of Judgement."
3. "but the Truth is a matter of life & death."
I totally agree.
"I came across folks who really believed the bible was literally true."
My experience was somewhat different, but the outcome was similar (though we're on different sides). I'm not very social and I don't trust people much, so perhaps that's the reason. Perhaps the way to the truth differs from one person to another.
The Bible (in my case, Qur'an) talks to different types of people. Thus, within the words there are different kinds of clues (if I may call it so) that fit different people.
Some prefer to let their minds lead the way. Some prefer to let their hearts lead the way. Some prefer to let their eyes or ears lead the way. etc.
Finally, I think, at least in my case, this special experience happened exactly when and where it was supposed to happen (probably like what you've experienced). It's like being totally blind, then suddenly something awakes and the eyes would see the truth clearly. The difference between before and after is like the difference between night and day, or darkness and light.
Perhaps each person may find his way when and where he's supposed to.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I belonged to an evangelical church in the past and are familiar with this perspective but eventually came to different conclusion over time. I went to church with many people now dead who believed the second coming was going to happen in their lifetimes. Seems people have been thinking this for 2000 years.
With thousands of Christian denominations, sects, and more individual interpretations it is a big claim to think you have the right one and the others don't. In fact the protestant church did not exist until the reformation. Was no one saved until Martin Luther and Calvin or the development of the modern evangelical movement? Then there are all the other religions where people may have similar personal religious experiences.
I suggest much of the bible if taken literally has been falsified. But we disagree on 6 day creations, adam and eve, floods and a 6000 year old earth versus science - evolution, dating etc.
Other parts are unverifiable and often highly unlikely, like the actual existence of god, miracles, supernatural acts, virgin births and resurrections. We clearly have different ideas about whether the resurrection is beyond reasonable doubt.
Every so called prophecy I have come across can also be unpacked or shown to be so vague and open to interpretation etc.
It is almost a miracle that people overlook the contradictions in the bible, the dates on the NT, and still assume it is 100% correct. Even the gospels conflict in many details.
But in the face of all the dissonance explanations or excuses have been developed.
I suggest we shape god according to our beliefs and not our beliefs to the reality of a god.
I'm familiar with the personal relation aspect. I guess this is mostly one way. You talking to your imaginary friend and imagining his involvement. You can see and touch most buddies & have a 2 way conversation and share a beer
Obey No1kinobe 50+
However in more backward areas Balkans, PNG, Africa etc Christians are still militant, or killing people thought to be witches or gay etc. Perhaps the least secular and least advanced places are the most dangerous whatever your religion.
Seems to me if the Taliban or other religious fundamentalists need to resort to violence to enforce their religious views on others, they have lost the intellectual argument.
Peter Law 30+
:-)
PS. You may find this interesting.
http://carm.org/god-of-old-testament-a-monster
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I'm still open to discovering something convincing in the god area. Nothing yet. Happy to discuss with believers if they get on with their lives by making assertions about this god or that.
I think you are right about the killing and maiming. Still seems sad so much death and wasted lives over false religions. Even if one of them has it basically right. I guess you would agree at best only one religious belief can be correct. So most the killing has been about false ones.
You seem to think yours is the right one. Everyone seems to think theirs is the right one. I imagine you are just as certain as Amr. You each have similar rationales. And yet both can not be correct. But if adults get to make a choice, fair enough. For all the indoctrinated kids. that is just sad.
As to evangelical Christianity being correct, I guess you have seen the stage managed faith healing etc. But have you ever seen your evangelical faith healers heal an amputated limb, or down syndrome? Now that would be impressive. Would not actually prove the existence of god, but would be something out of the ordinary, worth further investigation.
Peter Law 30+
Maybe the difference twixt you & me is bias. Most of my assurance came subsequent to making the commitment. If you like; I gave God the benefit of the doubt. I had nothing to lose; I'm dying; just as you are. I could find no reason not to go for it; the thing was feasible in my eyes so I saw no reason not to take the step. My reward is complete assurance that my future is secure.
You seem to home in to problems; alleged discrepancies in the bible, & God calling situations that you consider wrong. I understand this to a degree, but I am very aware of my limitations, & this would not be my way of dealing with these problems.
Amr sees things differently from me. That is fine; he is searching, as are we. As grown men we are responsible for our own actions. Each will be judged by what they do with the information they have; it's our own responsibilities.
Children are the responsibility of their parents. Each one of us must do the best for our children. When they are grown, they can decide for themselves. Until then they will be children of Christians, Muslims, Athiests, etc. A certain amount of indoctrination is unavoidable. Who is to say that one type is any worse than another. A good mix is healthy; the kids can then discuss the options with their peers as they grow up. Dictators may disagree, but I think this is healthy.
Do you really think that a melted caterpillar eventually became a butterfly after millions of years of random, abortive attempts ?
:-)
Obey No1kinobe 50+
When you read it with an open mind it makes sense
I could only believe in the unbelievable for so long. In the end gave in to the truth as best I could figure it out. I dropped the Christian bias and was open to what was best supported by evidence.
I was imagining God and feeling stuff, just like people of other faiths. I never saw an amputee healed or a kid with down syndrome. I was attributing the good to god and all the failed prayer as gods will.
To me the interconnection of life is almost self evident. And this is backed up by DNA. The mental contortions to explain this biblically were unsatisfactory. To think all placental mammals were just created with the similar bodies, with similarities to birds and reptiles and fish, all the vertibrae, and the DNA showing the genetic links, and putting this down to design efficiency. It looks exactly as it would if evolved.
Sorry I don't get the melted caterpillar reference. Life and the universe is complex.What is matter. What is Energy? What is an electron. How does a cell work? To plug this with god was insufficient for me.
And the bits I do understand make most sense from a naturalistic perspective. The most likely god scenario is the Deistic one, a non interventionist creator. But even this has no evidence.
Others are welcome to believe otherwise, and we can discuss and debate the different perspectives
Peter Law 30+
"How does a cell work?"
A cell is a machine built for a purpose. It's full of little factories producing stuff. Transportation systems, self repair systems, motors, jet engines, all sort of stuff. It is the most complex machine on the planet. If we could make it big enough to get a good look at it, any engineer would marvel at the complexity & ingenuity .
Evolution is small changes over time; the superior changes are selected, the less so discarded & the species gradually improves.
A caterpillar is born from a butterfly egg. It grows for a while then hangs on a branch. It's whole body then liquefies completely & then slowly solidifies into a perfect butterfly, which lays eggs........
I can't get my head round how this system developed by Evoltion & natural selection. Maybe you can ?
We are dealing with two unbelievable tales here. One involves intelligence; one doesn't. We are here, so something happened!
:-)
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I struggle more with getting my head around gravity and what matter and energy is than with chemistry and biology. Or what is outside the explaining universe. What is empty space. What is light.
The more human sized things get the easier for our brains to comprehend. Which fits with natural selection.
Complex things can develop naturally without intelligence.
The universe is complex. Biological life is complex. Matter and energy are complex.
The bits of biology I understand fit evolutionary theory.
I see the tree of life mapped out in front of our eyes. Our links to apes, mammals, vertebrata. It really must take an act of will to see these similarities, laid out physically in DNA to simply be design efficiency. And what crappy design. Airholes shared with eating. Waterworks shared with sexual parts etc. A universe where life clings to less than 0.000000001 % and where all the animals including us survive by eating other life. Nothing that indicates divinity. Completely consistent with natural selection.
If you look at the bits that are comprehensible to a layman the links, the mechanism, the fit with evolutionary theory is in front of your eyes.
What is there to stop what you call microevolution overtime resulting in some things very different from their ancestors and others less different. Why couldn't a small mammal in different population groups adapt and develop into very different animals from their common ancestor.
Look how similar a deer is to a horse or a cow or an antelope etc. They are different kinds but the genetic and phsyical similarities scream out common heritage.
Are all rodents one kind?
Are all marsupials one kind?
Different species with common ancestor written all over.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
There is a reason we can test stuff on animals as a proxy for humans. Our common heritage and biology. Especially the poor old chimps who are so close to us. The best proxy, and also perhaps the most similar emotionally and intellectually and behaviourally. They even get depressed.
Peter Law 30+
"Complex things can develop naturally without intelligence. "
Such as ? Snowflakes & crystals excepted, & they only do it thanks to their inherent features. What complex thing can we see develop without intelligence ?
I have heard this bad design argument often. Precisely how would you rearrange matters to improve things ?
If we look at dogs for instance. You can breed any type from mongrels, but if you start with only Alsatians, you cannot get back to mongrels. The reason is well known; the variability has been lost in the Alsatian. The DNA that is required to give the variation has been bred out of them. The 'purer' the breed the higher the vets bills, because of the loss of variability, the more prone they are to malfunction. If you continue on trying to improve the breed you will hit a brick wall. There has never been anything that has been bred until a new type of creature has appeared. It is impossible, as exemplified by the fastest horse, & the muscliest bull. Why anyone thinks otherwise is a mystery to me.
It has nothing to do with the bible. You haven't suggested a mechanism for either the butterfly or the cell. Nobody ever does, there is simply no answer that would fall into line with evolution. Both scream design, in exactly the same way as much simpler designs; like, say a nuclear submarine; screams design. To think otherwise requires more faith than I can muster.
:-)
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
http://www.malaysianinterfaithnetwork.net/?page=introduction
Amr Salah
The idea sounds really fascinating.
I think each country needs an organization, or a network, like this. Perhaps there should be even one worldwide organization that keeps the identity of each religion separated, yet identifies the common shared basics between religions and shares the wealth of knowledge about religions with the whole world. I think it should be offering knowledge and information only, without interfering with the politics of the world (that's also considering that the current world powers probably would not abandon their seats willingly :) ).
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I guess the moderates might get involved.
It will not have much impact on the fundamentalists of any faith who believe they have the truth and the other religions are the work of the devil or mistaken.
If moderates reject the attitudes and violence of fundamentalists, that might help as well.
Ian Young
Am I confused, or was not a malaysian citizen recrntly scentenced to 11 years imprisonment for being an atheist? (after a brutal beating for which no one was prosecuted).Is it not also true that sharia law governs? Tell me , what do they do to a muslim who choses to convert, or to renounce his faith? Does it , "promote better understanding and common values..."
As an aside, I would argue that all religions are not pretty much the same, deism is vastly differnt as it posits a god so transcendent it is removed from the universe itself. Religions can be passive, (the dao), or aggressive, (sikh)... prosletyzing, (mormon), or exclusive, (judaism), among a thousand other qualifications. They can be revealed to a single individual, (such as islam or the mormon faith), or as an amalgam of experiences,( the gospels perhaps, or the torah).
You could posit that all religions were basically the same were to examine them in a psycological or sociological paradigm, but not in a theological one. Of course then you would have to back that up with a creditable psyco- or socio- explanation as to what religion was and why they were similar. As Marx did for example.
Regards.
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Firstly, I would like to say that I haven't heard of any news regarding a Malaysian atheist.Would be happy if you could provide me with any news links available on the internet?
Ian, you have to understand that Malaysia is NOT a wholly Muslim country.We are a secular islamic country.A good percentage of Malaysians are not even Muslims.We do have Sharia courts but those are only for the Muslims.Sharia law too has its own limit in governing Malaysian Muslims.As far as I'm concerned, Civil Law rules here.
All I'm saying is that all religion promote good behaviour.Shouldn't we highlight this fact instead of fighting each other?
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Like death for apostasy.
You may be ignoring: "Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
And while looking for common ground, don't forget: "The only true faith in God's sight is Islam." (Surah 3:19)
Again I suggest our shared humanity binds us more than different religious beliefs.
Although the common enemy against all superstition is the atheist, human rights, science and reason. Maybe that will unite different religious groups.
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Regarding the surahs that you've pointed out here, every surah has its history and you can't just quote the Quran like a book because every surah is connected to each other and taking a part of the surah while leaving some behind might change the true meaning of the surah.Perhaps you should watch Lesley Hazleton's video (I'll include the link for you).I hope this clears the air around here.Peace please.
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/lesley_hazelton_on_reading_the_koran.html
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I have seen that talk. It's a good one.
I note when groups feel threatened the rhethoric often changes, including in religious speech and writings.
Also, given the content is there, the reader can pick and choose what they want and claim it has authority from the most high.
Hoping for peace, and freedom, here as well
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Plus , it would be meaningless if we were to copy and paste whatever we like into our brains without considering the whole body of the text.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
But others do.
I'm not sure if all the negatives in religions are just taking things out of context.
I would agree some interpretations of holy texts may very likely be not what was meant.
Other sections might be reasonably open to different interpretations. Text and speech and their interpretation is somewhat subjective. Long complicated texts are not a great way to get a precise message across.
Also when the bible says kill people who work on the sabbath, or kill adulterers well that's fairly straight forward.
The OT and NT are quite contradictory. Christians are happy to pick and choose the bits they want from the OT. Also Jewish people have different levels of compliance with the old law, and generally don't kill people for working on the sabbath. But maybe they should if they are going to follow gods word no matter how repulsive.
Western society has its problems but killing people for religious reasons is not tolerated anymore.
Are you suggesting there is nothing we would judge offensive or sexist or tribalist or racist or against modern human rights in the Qu'ran? Even if we tried to understand it in context?
Equally there are sections in the Qurán that seem appropriate for the
I'm not superstitious so you don't need to worry about me taking it the wrong way. It is the religious folk you need to worry about, firstly because they may misinterpret, secondly because their is probably a lot of nasty material in the Abrahamic texts.
After all this is the god that committed near global genocide with Noah's flood. And much much more. A god that at best regulates slavery.
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Science indicates we are made from atoms that were created in stars that super nova'd at least 6 billion years ago. We are made of star stuff.
We are connected to all life on earth. The earliest life forms worked by photosynthesis creating the oxygen for 2 billion years that allowed animals to develop.
Evert time you breathe you are taking in atoms that were breathed in by your prophets, kings, or the humblest person.
There is a paradox, the amazing universe, the connections, the beauty of life, and you can have this and still be just a thinking ape.
When you are sitting on the toilet after eating some steak, consider how superficially different that is from a lion toileting after eating some zebra. We are related and interconnected with all humans and animals, even the plants.
Amr Salah
People may be using nuclear power and starships, and they may govern billions of people, but they still need to go to the toilet.
This may prove also that we're not just a body and not just a soul (or whatever you may believe to grant us free will and and the choice to go right or left, to do what's right or to do what's wrong.). We're a combination of both. Our bodies give us physical existence and they need care, food etc for survival. As for the soul, it is outside the domain of our knowledge.
I don't trust scientific theories about the beginning of life. Perhaps if people started working on the evidence provided in religion concerning the beginning of life combined with scientific research, then I may find it interesting.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I agree on the humbleness. The richest and most powerful businessman, king, dictator or general will one day be a frail old man.
All the natural functions you associate with the soul I associate with the mind/brain. We'll just have to disagree on whether there is a supernatural spirit or soul that exists independent of the body/brain. Some people are born so brain damaged or simply psychopathic that they don't have free will in the sense that a person with a fully functioning brain does. Maybe they have budget souls.
If I compare science based on evidence or religious beliefs based on supernatural claims and no evidence, well......I would go with the evidence based claims.
Plenty of people try to prove their religious beliefs fit reality. If beliefs don't fit well established scientific understanding, then the beliefs have a problem.
For example in the bible it talks about the sun stopping in sky. I believe the Quran mentions the sun resting in a cradle at night, whereas via science today we know the Earth is rotating.
There is no evidence in religion, just claims. You need evidence out in the real world to prove your religious claims. Some can be proven or disproved. Other claims can not be verified either way. It is impossible to prove a god like Allah exists or not or chose the Jews as his chosen people or parted the red sea then drowned the egyptians, or sent plagues to kill people, or that Jonah lived in some marine animal, or that JEsus walked on water. Up to you how likely you think these events are to have happened, but we have no convincing evidence any of them did. Not much evidence for any magical gods these days.
Evolution is well established to explain species etc. Science does not have a well established theory for the origin of life. Evolution vs 6 day creation is hardly an argument unless you really want to believe.
Amr Salah
(I didn't know "Jonah" is the way his name is written in English. In Arabic it sounds Yunis, or something like that.)
Why would it be difficult to prove that an army drowned in a sea in the past? Why would it be difficult to prove the other stories mentioned in Holy Books?
Also, what's the difference between a living body and a dead body? What's the difference between someone who is awake and someone who is asleep? What's the scientific explanation?
Amr Salah
I know absolutely nothing of what's inside OT. I've checked a small Arabic booklet about something called "Talmud" (?) to answer your questions.
Ok, my first impression is that Talmud is full of lies.
Apparently "Yahweh" was not what Jews originally worshipped. Apparently, they got that "Yahweh" from one of the tribes they met. So, Yahweh is something they invented, or more like borrowed.
From Qur'an, we know that Jews have killed some prophets and didn't believe others. We also know that they worshipped a calf made of jewels, that they took from Egyptians (?), while Moses, pbuh, was away from them (receiving the Ten Commandments?). The calf made sounds like a real one. Moses, pbuh, was furious when he returned. The calf was destroyed and thrown into the sea and all who worshipped the calf were punished by death. These are among many other stories regarding the history of the Jews that were mentioned in Qur'an, but I cannot discuss them in detail here.
"I guess Muslims generally assume Yahweh is Allah"
That's not right.
Muslims know God from Qur'an. If you want to know Allah, Almighty, as Muslims believe, please read Qur'an.
I found a translation of the meaning of words of an ayah from a sura earlier. I think the translation is ok, check it out:
“Allah! There is no God save Him,..Unto Him belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth. Who...intercedes with Him save by His leave? He knows what ...is in front of them and behind them....His throne includes the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them.” (2.255)
Even though we believe in Torah and Bible, Islam has no relation whatsoever to the current Jewish religion. Qur'an was preserved and the full truth is in it. My answer as a Muslim, if you want to know what Muslims believe, please check Qur'an for the answer.
Amr Salah
Hi Obey No1kinobe,
sorry that this reply is late.
You've mentioned in a previous comment that, "For example in the bible it talks about the sun stopping in sky. I believe the Quran mentions the sun resting in a cradle at night, whereas via science today we know the Earth is rotating.".
I thought it would be helpful to provide some evidence from Qur'an so that you'd judge from it.
Here is a translation of ayahs 21.30-35. Please tell me what you think after reading them (specially ayah 33).
21.30 "Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"
21.31 "And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may receive Guidance."
21.32 "And We have made the heavens as a canopy well guarded: yet do they turn away from the Signs which these things (point to)!"
21.33 "It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course."
21.34 "We granted not to any man before thee permanent life (here): if then thou shouldst die, would they live permanently?"
21.35 "Every soul shall have a taste of death: and We test you by evil and by good by way of trial. to Us must ye return."
I'll be waiting for your reply.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
On the parting of the red sea, first we have to find evidence of as army in the red sea.
I'm not sure if any one has found evidence of an army in the red sea?
Then need to prove they drowned.
Then prove they drowned as described in the bible and not from falling off a boat etc
How do you prove god parted the red sea and the army walked in and then god closed?
I guess you can figure out the biological scientific difference between being dead or alive, awake or asleep.
Amr Salah
There could be a possibility that there may be some armour or weapons etc at the bottom of the sea (assuming the shape of the land didn't change). Also, the story could have been mentioned on papyri some time later (I'm not sure when ancient Egyptians started using papyri.). Or perhaps it became a part of one of the ancient tales or affected sculpture style and figures etc.
"How do you prove god parted the red sea and the army walked in and then god closed?"
Well, probably there are people in the world nowadays who can do such investigation. Also, that's the job of scientific tools and technology.
I don't think "science" has said much yet about these different states, "alive" and "dead, and "awake" and "asleep", except for what's obvious. Of course there is a measurable change in state and body functions. Also, there is science fiction like "Frankenstein", but it has nothing to do with reality.
Amr Salah
However, my short answers would be that whichever translation that came with the "resting in a cradle" part, I think that translation is terribly different from the meaning of the original words. Translation of Qur'an is not easy and it is somewhat problematic. The only "kind" of translation of Qur'an possible, I think, is a translation of the interpretation of the meanings of the words. This is subject to error, of course.
I think in Qur'an it is mentioned what "I think" may mean each of the sun and moon have distinct or separate orbits. I assume the sun is orbitting around something bigger, or it is simply orbitting. I wrote some notes about what I understood from Qur'an some time in the past, but it's according to my understanding which is possibly wrong and could be very misleading. Besides, I know very little about astronomy.
As for the story of Jonah, pbuh, I don't know what happens to what's inside big whales. Perhaps science can answer this :) Also, there could have been different species of whales back then that don't exist today, or perhaps this particular whale was a special one.
I'd like to discuss these two points in detail with you later, but I need to do some research and some reading and it won't be possible now.
The next discussion that's related to the current topic might be 6-8 months later, isA. It would possibly be about the relationship between religion and science or the relationship between the Holy Books and science.
I think the current discussion has already exhausted its goals.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
This is the type of evidence that starts to make the claims more likely to reflect what actually happened.
When you are dead, your body processes begin to stop working. There are chemical changes in muscles that cause rigor mortis (stiffening). Your body starts to decompose.
Parts of your brain control unconscious functions like breathing and heart beating. Other parts of your brain are responsible for your conscious mind. If your brain is damaged your mind/consciousness may be impacted. If the brain is starved of oxygen too long or suffers major trauma, your brain function stops, and as far as we know once your brain permanently stops working that is the end of you the person, and eventually your body will break down and become part of the environment and ecosystem.
Some believe in life after death and immortal spirits etc. Reincarnation for hindus and buddhists. Afterlife of some sort for Greek gods, Abrahamic gods etc. Could be, but we can not tell in any reliable way if any of these are correct as far as I know.
Sleep is a different body brain state to those in normal waking. You can get all sorts of brain states while awake. If you watch a movie you might go into a light trance and lose awareness of your surroundings.
With sleep we basically have a body clock, with processes keeping us awake fighting processes to make us sleep that take precedence at different times of the day. When you sleep you enter different brain states, REM, then deep sleep with your body usually partially paralysed. Most people dream which is fascinating. Sleep is vital to proper body and brain function, memory etc.
Sleep and death don't seem to be magic as far as we can tell.
Peter Law 30+
There is a certain amount of 'evidence' for the Red Sea scenario, but of course hotly disputed. Google 'Red Sea chariot' or similar.
http://www.wnd.com/2003/06/19382/
Is fairly typical.
:-)
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Appreciate your efforts.
If you just imagine I basically see all religions the same as you see all religions except for Islam.
Hope the discussion was of interest to you as it was for me.
Wishing you all the best.
Amr Salah
I only noticed now, only when you mentioned it, that I didn't try at all to see things from your perspective. I was merely trying hard to explain mine.
(Well, I don't think it's possible for me to see things from your perspective.)
"... would definitely start to support a story in the bible. "
Why did you say in "the Bible" and not something like "holy Books" or "Abrahamic religions"?
The idea of that other discussion is starting to take shape in my mind. It might happen if I don't eventually get too discouraged to work on it.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Also, my relative ignorance about the Qurán and how Muslims view the old and new testament.
I guess Muslims generally assume Yahweh is Allah and that the OT prophets had something to say from god, and perhaps the flood and other supernatural events happened.
But I guess there are different sects or denominations in Islam, just like other big religions, and ultimately some Muslims may not take everything literally to better fit our improved understanding of the universe, history etc or simply interpret verses differently.
The older the book, the more the facts and origins of the stories are lost in antiquity, the more amazing the and dramatic the miracles. We don't know who wrote all the sections of the old testament. We don't know who wrote the gospels. We are told who the author is of the Qurán.
I note less amazing miracles as historical record keeping has improved, and the more independent sources.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
For example on morality, they might say without a god there can be no morality. Without religion the world will collapse into a den of barbarity.
But there are more than 2 options if you think about. Say there is a god, who is to say the god has the ideal morality. Just because it is powerful does not make it good. If this god orders or does some things that cause unnecessary suffering, it could be considered immoral. If I created a child I don't treat it like a slave. A global flood killing men, women children is a pretty nasty, but hell is evil.
Many religions define their god as omni benevolent - all loving and can do no wrong. So by definition whatever god does or says is good even if it would not be if done or ordered by a human. I suggest defining it so does not necessarily make it so. Its a circular logic.
So if there is a god telling us how to live, and you know somehow you have the right interpretation out of the millions of beliefs, power does not equal being moral. People say their god is love without considering how they would rate this being if it were not their god.
Also, imagine there is no interventionist god telling us how to live. Then humans made up all the religions and rules. None are from god. They are just past efforts to manage or control a society, a mix of good and bad. Regulating slavery, owning people as chattel, is not as good as eliminating it. Killing people for working on the Sabbath, maybe not so good.
People can work out moral systems without stamping this or that god on them to give them authority.
It might be easy to have rules from a religious book. You have to think more about what is best when you don't have a cookie cutter approach, but it does not automatically follow people will all start raping and killing and steeling if we replace religious morality with well thought out secular ethics.
Amr Salah
I'm not asking what approach you're going to use for determining. I'm asking What the source of this knowledge is.
Saying "doing this is good and doing that is bad" means there is a set of rules exactly like the rules that govern planets and life on earth. So, the rules existed even before we were born, right? Then, Who made the rules? I argue the rules that balance life on earth and the set of rules that determine what's good and what's bad are not the work of those who were created.
If the sun, stars and planets started making their individual set of rules on their own, it would be chaos, right?
There must be a universal set of rules and morals that govern all things and all creatures. Who can make these rules better than He Who created life and death?
Now, if we agreed that there is a set of rules that existed even before our existence, shouldn't we check the original "reference" of the set of rules?
God's justice is absolute. You may have some sympathy for a murderer, but the murderer deserves the punishment. He may live unpunished, but he won't escape death.
A story in Qur'an tells of some people who owned a big garden (not sure if 'garden' is the right word). They decided the garden and all the fruits in it is their property and they shall not allow any of the poor to take anything. They shall keep it all to themselves. During their sleep, a storm of fire devoured the whole garden, leaving nothing of it. When they went there and saw what happened, they realized they were wrong. They realized the garden was something that they were given in life, but it was not theirs.
If you allow a group of people to own all resources and land on earth who would make the rest starve to death, you're neither merciful nor just. If you let a group of people murder others and escape punishment, you're neither merciful nor just. If you treat those who do good and those who do evil equally, you're neither merciful nor just.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Why is it good or bad just because god says it is so? Perhaps because you believe it is so. If god told you to kill your son, or your neighbour, is that good because god said so. This is just circular logic.
Defining what is good and bad is not easy. Philosophers have spent centuries thing about these things so we are not starting from zero. Typically a society might encourage behaviours that support things they value and discourage behaviours that go against what is valued. If women are considered property and there virginity and behaviour is thought to reflect on the honour of their father or husband, that will lead to certain rules.
Fundamentally, there are also issues with unwanted children, or making sure the children are yours.
A more modern view might start with defining what is good and bad in terms of what reduces or increases suffering, the premise that being alive and free to act is better than being dead or enslaved etc.
I'm not sure if there is an objective absolute morality for every situation.
If your family is starving is it wrong to steal from a corrupt official?
Is it sometimes justified to kill - If your wife is suffering terribly from an incurable disease and wants to die. In self defense if you are attacked.
In many cases treating others how we would like to be treated seems to work. But not always firstly if how you would like to be treated is questionable. A Father may think that if we was a women he would like to be locked up to protect his virtue.
Also if you killed someone you might not want to get locked up or executed, but would want other murders locked up.
It is complex, but we have brains and can do our best.
Amr Salah
I meant when you determine that doing something is good and doing another is evil means there is a law that existed even before you determined or found that out. (The same way that gravity applied even before we knew about it.) The law probably applies to all humans even if they don't know about it or don't want to apply it. That's the case even if you instinctively knew what's right and what's wrong without reading any of the Books.
Ah yes, gravity is unbiased, at all. It is definitely not man-made. We should learn from it. :)
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Likewise I can disagree with some of the other moral instructions in holy books, and give you a considered argument why.
Is there anything in the bible or other religions you think might not make sense in the 21st century? Should adultery be killed? Should homosexuals be killed? Should people be killed for working on the holy day of rest? Is slavery acceptable?
I agree with many religious moral positions based on consideration, not just because a book says so. However, I just worry religious teachings, especially old ones, include medieval or iron age morality that may not be the best we have thought of.
Amr Salah
Obey No1kinobe 50+
For the sake of argument say gods exist, maybe I die and Hades says I have not lived as I should and will be sent to the netherworld. I'll say, I thought you and all other gods were myths.
Kind of unfair that it depends on picking the right belief system from all the millions that exist. And none of them are convincing or stand out as being the truth. In fact it seems evil and perverse that if there is a god it would judge us for not following the correct rules when the rules and existence of this god were not clear.
I sometimes work on the Sabbath. Eat the wrong foods etc etc.
It would be more merciful to forgive without conditions.
If all the religions had 100% good rules, I wouldn't mind so much. But they don't.
I agree that deeds define the character of a person more than nation, race, gender.
Amr Salah
By the way, sorry I didn't understand what you meant by Sabbath previously. Sabbath means Saturday in Arabic. There is a story about prohibition of fishing (or working?) in Sabbath, and I don't really claim I understand this particular story very well. It seems some people were punished in the past when they fish (or work) in Sabbath. I may read one of the interpretations about this later.
Jews, Christians and Muslims, each of them have one special day for prayers.
Anyway, Muslims are not prohibited from working on Fridays. We go to one special prayer, then we may resume our work. There is a sura called "Friday".
Amr Salah
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I guess Friday for Muslims is the same sort of thing.
Christians day of rest in Sunday but perhaps not so strict
Obey No1kinobe 50+
English has so many historical influences - Celtic, Latin, Saxon, French, it is a mongrel language based on different invaders and influences. Even Arabic words - Algebra, algorithm etc
Amr Salah
I appreciate all the comments made to this discussion. Thanks for sharing your experience and your beliefs. I learnt a lot from all the opinions and I hope this may be also helpful to others. I hope I'll visit this discussion once again in the future and read it all over :)
All opinions are welcome.
My only request to new guests to the discussion is to use respectful language when arguing about God, angels, prophets, or Books. I hope it's ok.
Verble Gherulous 20+
The three Abrahamic religions are similar in this origin in Abraham, and certain of their tenets are indeed the same, namely the belief in one God, not many dieties.
However, there is one fundamental difference - or, basically the similarity between Judaism and Islam as contrasts to Christianity. The divinity of Jesus Christ.
Christians know that Jesus Christ was fully human and fully God. Acceptance of His divine nature is the key to the acceptance of the gift of the Holy Spirit (also God) into our lives, so that He may do His good works through us.
This is the basic fundamental difference, in that it shows us that we can do nothing without God. He is the architect and the guide. While I respect greatly all other religions, what I have found in others is that they greatly depend on works, what a person must do to please God, what a person must do to show their faith. With Christ, we understand that it is not what we have done for Him, but what He has done for us, and with that understanding, His good works flow through our lives.
In that light, Christianity stands as radically different from the other two Abrahamic religions, who see that the Messiah will come to set right the world. Christianity shows us that He already has.
Peace be upon you all.
VG
Amr Salah
I meant "knowledge that people are forbidden to know. (When governments, media, elites etc decide that their people "don't have to" know something, or that people should know about something "the way they prefer")"
For example, when media wants people to avoid a certain religion, it links it to something that people hate or claim it is evil etc. Thus, many people would avoid any kind of knowledge about it even with no real reasons.
Thanks for the explanation. I want to discuss something with you. I hope it's ok.
We believe that a "soul" is what makes humans "alive". I think you'd agree with me that all living humans have souls. I think you'd also agree that a soul enters the body by the command of God, perhaps sometimes it would be delivered by angels, or by the Holy Spirit, Gabriel, pbuh.
This is how soil (perhaps earth or dust? my English is not good) and water (or mud as a combination of soil and water) became a human, Adam, pbuh. In Islam we believe Jesus, pbuh, came to life like Adam, pbuh, came to life.
If God sent prophets and messengers before, including Noah, Ibrahim (Abraham), Lot, Ismael (Ishmael), Isaac , Solomon, David, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, peace be upon them, and many others, why do you think Jesus, pbuh, was not a prophet like them?
I totally respect your belief and your opinion and I'm not going to comment on your reply, I just want to know your reasons.
Peace be upon you too.
Verble Gherulous 20+
When I understand another culture, I am less "afraid" of that culture. When I learn a new language, I am less afraid of what people are saying in that language. I encourage all people to explore the world, even if they can only do it through books, and any sort of force that tries to turn that into "forbidden knowledge" I could consider an enemy to humanity.
On the other discussion, thank you. You also have my great respect, because I can see that you are very knowledgeable. Please know that I am also not a scholar, nor of any great intelligence, I am merely living a faith; however, from what I understand of the scripture is yes, only human beings have souls. This is what distinguishes us from all other life. In my faith, all prophets are merely human beings, whom God has chosen for special messages. The glory is to God for the message, revealed by the simple men that He chose to carry His message.
Jesus the Messiah, our faith leads us to know, is different from prophets in that He IS God. God presented His Spirit into the virgin womb in order to be born as one of us, to live as one of us, to show His love for us, He humbled Himself to be one of us. By this, we know Creator of All loved us so deeply that He, for a short time, took a body like ours. It is by this example we are to learn that we can live a life that is humble, compassionate, courteous, and kind.
Thank you again for your question. I hope I have presented my Lord in a fitting manner.
And peace be upon you, or, permit me to say, "Assalamu alaikum"
Amr Salah
Peace be upon you too. Wa alaikum assalam
You're welcome to say it any time :)
Imad Atwi 10+
All of them tell you to be good to yourself and the people around you. The rest i believe are trivial details.
Amr Salah
Obey No1kinobe 50+
That's like saying not playing tennis is a sport.
Imad Atwi 10+
They believe in the non existence of a higher or a super entity governing the religion. The analogy you presented isnt quite there. : )
To each his own.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I suggest the analogy is spot on.
Maybe there are different meanings for the word atheism.
I consider myself a non theist, an atheist because I don't have any belief in a god.
I'm actually an agnostic atheist.
Gnosticism is about knowing. I don't claim to know if there is a god or not.
Theism is a belief in god(s). I haven't seen anything to convince me to believe, so I'm an atheist.
Atheism is just a lack of belief in gods. It is a position on a single issue only. Technically many Buddhists don't believe in gods so may be atheist also. I'm generally skeptical, but there is nothing to stop other atheists having completely different views about everything else other than the god question. They could believe in astrology or crystal healing, reincarnation etc. Just no gods.
This is quite different from traditional religion where there is typically scripture and dogma and traditional practices etc.
It's kind of bizzaire to imply atheism is a religion with detailed dogma and rules from some authority. But I understand that some people would lack to package atheism as a belief system rather than a lack of belief in one area, gods.
Some people are into tennis, follow the rules of tennis, wear tennis clothes. Others play football and follow the rules of football.
There are many who do not play sport and don't have any shared rules.
Actually if someone is a muslim then they are theist in regards to one broad idea of gods (Shia and Sunni etc don't seem agree on the details) but are atheist in regards to Jesus being god, or Zeus, or Madak, or El etc. I just have one less belief in a god than a theist does.
John Moonstroller 20+
John Moonstroller 20+
When Jews speak of Arabs who are in an angry state they refer to them as son's of Ishmael, because Ishmael was so temperamental while Arabs denounce the Jews as son's of the thief Isaac who stole Abraham's first son, Ismael's birthright.
The rest is simply cultural differences and water rights for the most part. When the Jews were given the land that many Palestinians claim belonged to them, by the United Nations, it had the ring of the Isaac and Ishmael story all over again, with the United Nations taking the role of Abraham, the Palestinians the role of Ishmael and of course, the Israelis, the role of Isaac. The rest of the Arabs, being the sons, daughter's, cousins and uncles of the Palestinians, naturally took the side of their relatives against the Israelis.
It's hard to believe that such turmoil in the Middle East could be related to a story that was acted out so many centuries ago, but I believe it is, indeed, the case.
Some historical points to look at: The hatred of the Jews by the Arabs started from the Time of Abraham over birth rights. The hatred of the Christians for the Jews Started after Jesus was crucified, because of the Jews (or so they say). Today we are left with three dominate religions, Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, all because of these incidents.
In Israel they have a saying, "If the Arabs lay down their arms, there will be peace in the Middle East. If Israel lay's down their arms, there will be no more Israel."
I doubt the anger of the son's of Ishmael will ever be abated, nor will the Christians ever accept the fact that the Jews did not Kill Jesus. There is no Middle Eastern solution as long as Israel exists and America maintains a presence there.
Amr Salah
Thanks for your contribution. I don't feel like the conflict will end soon. Perhaps it will stay as long as humans exist. It is strange that the story of this conflict seems like it surpassed all the human generations as if it's a single line from the beginning to the end. The rest of the people from all the countries around the world seem like spectators. They may choose sides, remain neutral or keep themselves busy doing something. Some may believe the story of the conflict has something to do with humanity's end and others may not believe it. Anyway, we may not live long enough to witness much progress, or perhaps we will.
I don't even think this is the real story. :) I feel like it's only a man-made explanation. However, the conflict does exist. I think very few would deny they feel for real that all the events of the conflict were written long before all the generations of humans came to life, even before humanity existed.
John Moonstroller 20+
It's really all about land and what is done with it.
To truly express my feelings, I can say, I am glad I was not borne in that region of the world. I feel lucky to have been borne in the United States. I feel the United States should be the model for all countries, as democratic models go. The Muslims and Jews in our country are not like those overseas. They have no problems expressing apprehension at how the Muslim or Jewish religion is practiced in the old lands. They appear happier here in the US.
Adriaan Braam 20+
If is a spiritual interpretation of most of the Bible (as we bellieve, revealed through him).
One religion or belief system has 'evolved' from the previous one, as humanity grew up and developed. For some reason, religions have interpreted their Revelation in a way that was not the intention.
Revelation is meant to make humanity better (more loving and kind), not more hatefull and exclusive.
Every person that is a good person, of whatever religion!!!!, goes to heaven. No one goes to heaven because of what they own, belong to or have done. It is only based on our character, on what we love.
As they say: "We are what we love."
Maybe this book (vol I of two) will help this world to come together and return the Middle East to Eden.
https://sites.google.com/site/liveitupspiritually/home/writings/True%20Christian%20Religion%2001.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1
Obey No1kinobe 50+
They are inherently subjective.
Adriaan Braam 20+
Everything!! spiritual is subjective, even NDE's. But at least it can tell that person (no one else) 'there is more to us than our body.'
Amr Salah
The reason science would not contradict religion is that science deals with studying the rules that govern life and is based on seeking the truth. We may make mistakes in understanding and interpretting religion and we may make mistakes based on wrong scientific theories and explanations, but we can and should only seek the truth, do our best and hope for what's good.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
You might be right but we don't know.
Amr Salah
My understanding of Qur'an changes and develops alongside what I learn from scientific discoveries, general knowledge, observations, and experience I learn day by day. It is as if the interpretation, or understanding, grows up side by side with human knowledge on all levels, individuals, society and humanity altogether. For example, the concept of "justice" is well-understood, but the means by which justice is delivered and the means by which "justice" is evaluated and judged have changed greatly over time. Sadly, it was affected by our bias, and the bloodlust hidden under the robe of patriotism.
However, that doesn't change the real meaning of the words or the belief, and it doesn't change the practices of religion or what's definitely right and what is definitely wrong. In my case, I simply correct some of my misunderstandings and some of my wrong ideas. I try to learn what could help purify and increase my belief. I believe we should never stop searching for knowledge and truth until the moment we're no longer alive. Every extra moment that passes is one second more we're given to correct ourselves and to get closer to the truth (or further away).
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I support searching for the truth.
Many religious claims don't match what we can confirm about life and the universe oe with each other.
Some religious claims can not be verified because by definition there is no evidence for or against available to confirm the claims.
That is why there are so many religions. People seem to believe conflicting stories are true because they don't want to think that critically about it.
You don't know if Jesus was/is god or not. Neither do the Christians. And since God and Jesus refuse to communicate in a convincing way it seems we never will.
I support a search for truth based on a healthy skepticism and evidence. You can not prove any holy book is correct in all its claims. You certainly can not provide evidence or heaven and judgement after death.
It seems obvious to me that no religion, and especially the abrahamic ones, can prove any claims on being the source of objective morality. In fact many seem deficient.
It seems to me that you believe based on faith not evidence. That is your choice.
Hopefully you might get some insight that your beliefs and those of all the different religions are all subjective when you come down believing in scriptures and revelations and authority.
It seems men wrote all the holy books and could have done so without help
Modern humans have been around 100,000 to 200,000 years. The bible is about 2500 years old. Life on Earth has been around billions of years. Seems odd that god would send prophets to a few middle Eastern Tribes a few hundred or thousands of years ago and forget about anyone before, or in the Americas, or China, or India, or Europe, or Africa, or the Pacific until very recently.
Seriously the religious world view does not fit reality.
Adriaan Braam 20+
.
--"You don't know if Jesus was/is god or not. Neither do the Christians. And since God and Jesus refuse to communicate in a convincing way it seems we never will."--
There is no convincing way because that would stop or nullify the first line above. But if you are really interested, and searching, this is "speaking plainly of the Father." and could help.
http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/studies/Lord.pdf
Please see if this falls within your idea of evidence, or at least makes sense.
Amr Salah
I just wanted to let you know I've answered your comments below. It may be hard to notice.
I appreciate your contributions to the topic. Your questions are understandable. I think I said everything I could say that is within my current level of knowledge.
Perhaps a year or half a year later there will be more to say.
=====
Also, notice the "shape" of earth has changed from the past. Earth has not been always populated by humans. Also, I think humans "emerged" somewhere then they started moving, travelling and populating. What people in the far past were required to do in religion was different, I think. I think the fact that no more new prophets are coming means we are heading towards the peak of our technological advancement, and also towards the end.
Could you check sura number 2, ayah (verse) #255 in Qur'an? Please tell me when you do.
=====
Dawn is such a pleasant time :) Sunlight chases away the remainings of night's darkness relentlessly. Birds punctually start their day. The day starts breathing as if it's a living creature.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Amr Salah
I've checked information about Emanuel Swedenborg in wikipedia. His story seems interesting. I will dedicate some time to read his book some time soon. (650 pages will take a while)
Here is my honest opinion so far:
From what I read in wikipedia, there were some good points and some contradictions. One of the good points is,
"Swedenborg rejected the doctrine of salvation through faith alone, since he considered both faith and charity necessary for salvation, not one without the other, whereas the Reformers taught that faith alone procured justification, although it must be a faith which resulted in obedience."
That is consistent with what is believed in Islam. IMHO, "charity" confirms one's spiritual faith with a real-life (materialistic?) action. We have a common saying here that Judaism is a purely materialistic religion, Christianity is a purely spiritual religion and Islam has both sides.
I think Emanuel Swedenborg did extensive studies in his search for the truth, he was very enthusiastic and he deeply rejected some of the practices common at his time, and so his thoughts were strong enough to become something close to visions. I'm not saying I disapprove or approve all his thoughts. However, I would reject outright some of them, not only because of my belief, but also because I find them illogical.
I think it's possible to reach some kind of a peaceful agreement if we all agreed there are similarities in essence between the Abrahamic religions. I find it puzzling that many Christians would disregard Qur'an without even trying to read it to judge themselves if it is in accord with what they believe and what they read in Bible or not.
"Every person that is a good person ..."
I don't know what the final judgment would be. I'd be sure only when my feet are in heaven and far away from hell. It's impossible for us to judge who is a good person because we don't see what's in the heart. We could agree on the criteria of what makes a person good.
Adriaan Braam 20+
I also think that there certainly are differences between all religions, but as Swedenborg says, if we all accepted and practised a love of God or Allah or whatever we want to call Him, and also a love of the neighbour, everything else would just become differences of opinion. Nothing to get upset about.
Maybe this article will be of interest to you, it is shorter than a book :) http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/documents/Islam_NCL95new.rtf
Great to hear from you and you're right, we "could agree on the criteria" that would give us an idea if we, ourselves, are on the road to heaven or not.
Amr Salah
If the file wouldn't be edited later (sorry for my being too overcautious), as far as I can tell, the part concerning Islam in it is a good summary. I may think differently about some of the points, but it could be due to my ignorance. The writer of the original text of the file have a good knowledge of both English and Islam. There could be some points that are incorrect, but it is beyond my current knowledge to tell.
I think about withdrawing from discussing religion, at least for now. I don't think my current low English level, or my current very limited knowledge of both religion and science is appropriate for this sort of discussions. I don't mind being alone in the field (of discussions) right in front of the cannons, but I'm starting to feel I'm causing more harm than good. Also, I'm starting to have some doubts about the accuracy of some of the comments I posted and I'm not sure whether arguments would lead to anything helpful at all. Well, at least the goals of the discussion were somewhat fulfilled. I said my part of the story. Even if there are many mistakes in what I said, these were my opinions from my side as a Muslim Egyptian. I hope they were not just an evidence of my ignorance.
Adriaan Braam 20+
But you seem very hard on yourself. No one is perfect or makes no mistakes. We can only do based on what we know, and no one knows everything. Personally I very much appreciated your responses. If not perfect (which I did not notice), they were totally honest. My impression was that your English was better than mine. I grew up Dutch, talk about not being perfect :)
And then again too, no one will be tested, after death, to see how much he/she knows. It is all about why we did whatever we did, our attitude.
I know something about Swedenborg, but science, not very much.
The article may be a summing up of several books and other articles by other writers. But it has not been changed, it is in the archives of the New church magazine "New church Life."
Our major point of why Islam came about is to offset the spiritual damage done by the Christian belief in three Gods.
Keep up the good works Amr, love to hear from you and like you being open minded. Best wishes.
Amr Salah
"And then again too, no one will be tested, after death, to see how much he/she knows."
This is true, I think.
The problem is that since I represent my side as a Muslim in this discussion, my mistakes would be considered exploitable vulnerabilities by some. I don't expect anyone to come and correct my mistakes or to assist with more accurate information. While I try my best to be honest, I cannot avoid making mistakes, specially based on my ignorance. My biggest worry is if someone would form opinions based on what I say.
The concept of "jihad" has been discussed in the article. I believe there is uncertainity nowadays about the definition of jihad. I have formed an opinion about it over time, but I may be wrong. Also, my opinion is not exactly the most popular opinion. For several centuries, Christians, Jews and Muslims coexisted in Egypt. Also, Muslims and Christians coexisted in Jerusalem. There were very famous treaties that were signed back then, 1400 years ago, that confirm this. What I mean is that I think jihad aims to reach peace and to preserve human lives, but at the same time it protects the Muslims rights' to protect themselves if someone invaded their land or attacked them. Nowadays, things are very complicated and confusing. There is a country in the middle-east that have enough nukes to remove a whole continent, backed by world powers. One of the super-powers thinks it can kill people anywhere in the world and apparently it doesn't expect people to get angry or to fight back!
PS I think your English is much better.
Adriaan Braam 20+
As you know there are many different Christian denominations. I was wondering if there are also many Muslim interpretations of the Quran. Then the concept of "Jihad" could also have very different interpretations, and thus applications, which might make it hard to see how much 'truth' is in each different approach.
I believe that every Revelation has its levels and periods in which it works and makes people better human beings. But over time those interpretations (believe systems) deteriorate and come to an end. The 'flood' (of evil, not water) being one. Another on that list is the first coming of God, 2000 years ago, and the last one is His Second coming about 250 years ago (in the spirit and that is how we see the writings 'through' Swedenborg).
Humanity keeps falling back to the focusing on self. We don't need a God, especially now with science being so up-front and successful on the material level, we can do anything! Just give us time and we'll be just as infinite :)
Amr Salah
Sorry I couldn't reply sooner. I notice you've posted a lot of questions. As I mentioned earlier, I can only provide you with logical thoughts or advices from my very limited knowledge and experience. I cannot provide you with answers and I don't have an academic background or enough knowledge, specially regarding religion, to answer your questions on scientific basis. You're asking a simple Muslim human and what I can do is very little and insignificant.
However, I promise to try to reply to your questions, one by one. I will need to organize my thoughts a little.
Since it's only logical thoughts that I can provide you, I'll be talking to your mind. Even if your mind listened, or found some logic in what I say, your heart is a totally different story. Logic may convince the mind, but it's belief that would reach the heart.
No human can provide you with guidance, if your heart didn't listen, no matter how much faith they have. You cannot ask humans to guide you, because they need guidance themselves even if they were on top of the highest religious levels in the society, You can ask God only to guide you. You need to do it sincerely and take it seriously. Even if you don't believe that things may change, ask for guidance right from the heart as if your whole life depends on it. Notice that all humans come to life with comparatively similar knowledge and abilities, the only thing, within your domain is your choices and deeds that may determine your experience, your future and ultimately your "outcome".
Your life-time, your body, your deeds and the amount of money or resources within your possession, that's what is determined when your soul enters your body. That's what's within your possession in life. That's what you'll abandon when you die, and you will be asked about it. You're a witness on yourself.
My only request in order for me to reply is to use very respectful language when you argue about God, angels, prophets, or Books.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I respect your right to believe in any religious system. I'll try not to be deliberately offensive. But I can not promise my views will not offend as that is in part in the eye of the beholder. Just like I find some religious beliefs and behaviours offensive. I also don't see religion above criticism any more than any human endeavour.
It may be difficult not to offend because many people think religion is taboo and should not be challenged. I would equate the prophets alongside any historical or mythical figures religious or non religious. But will try not to be overly insensitive.
When I read the holy books though, their own words, the actions proscribed to the various characters reflect the more barbaric and ignorant times in which they are written. So killing people for being gay, or working on the Sabbath, or your new wife if she is not a virgin was more accepted than it might be today in some countries. I note quite a few of the prophets were associated with mass murder in the OT. It's not really my fault if from a 2st Century perspective they would be tried for crimes against humanity. I'm not making this stuff up.
You seem very fair minded and I respect that. Just so you know I'm not being deliberately provocative. These examples go to some of my key points in that Abrahamic Holy books don't look that holy to me. They are not the best examples of morality in 2012.
I would suggest also that other traditions around 2600 years ago were much more advanced in terms of morality than the OT and much of the later books. Buddhism, Jainism, even Confucius had the golden rule 500 years before Jesus “Do not impose on others what you do not wish for yourself.”
I'll try not to offend just for the sake of offending. I appreciate your efforts.
Amr Salah
Isn't "gayness" obviously against natural rules that govern life? Besides, scientifically, it leads to nothing. It is going against the laws of the Creator. Anyway, they can go to countries that would welcome them.
The "Sabbath" was a law that must be accepted by belief, not by logic and reason. If they asked back then when they were ordered: Why wouldn't we fish (or do work?) in Sabbath? It is because that's the Creator's law. Also, there is the story of the "she-camel" (? don't know if this is the right word) of Salih, pbuh, that people were ordered not to harm. They shall not drink the day it drinks. They were punished when they killed the "she-camel". (God is Merciful and His punishment is severe.)
I don't think it is possible to understand the world now only with the OT or the NT (Torah and Bible?) . I think Qur'an explains further some of the confusing parts in OT and NT and there is a correction in it for some of the parts that people changed in Torah and Bible over time. Also, some rules were changed and became easier. I don't understand how anyone would judge Qur'an without reading it. This is the digital age when information should be available to everyone. This is supposedly the age of freedom of knowledge when people should not be afraid to read. This is the time when people are free to choose and judge on their own.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I guess people get the same sort of feelings or brain states from opening up to any idea or concept of god. Thats one reason so many religions. They all give people the same general buzz.
I can't force myself to believe something I see no evidence for.
I'll try and be open but I'm not going to stop being reasonably sceptical.
I just sincerely asked god to help me find the truth about its existence.
So I'm all eyes and ears.
I should disclose that in the past I was a born again Christian, speaking tongues and so called healings etc.
I've never seen god heal an amputated limb or down syndrome. They must be too hard. Prayer is about as reliable as hope etc.
So I have some experience of the personal religious experience. To me it was all psychological and social. For example I get a similar feeling meditating, experiencing different brain states to some of the previous religious experiences.
Also no miracles like the old books these days, like the sun stopping the sky (I guess they didn't know the earth was rotating and that the sun isn't flying across the sky)
So to me, my starting point is it is all in our heads. But I'm open to the divine, if it exists showing me something more convincing.
Amr Salah
"Amr, it does seem a little odd that you have to psych yourself up and assume god exists in order for god to reveal himself."
I'll be honest with you about this. That's exactly what happened with me:
I was acting like an idiot for several years (It wasn't totally my fault). Yes, I was a Muslim, but apparently it didn't reach my heart. I have made many things that were wrong. I read and listened to verses of Qur'an, but apparently I never understood or even try to understand. Apparently my ears and eyes saw them as a repitition of words and sounds. My eyes didn't really see and my ears did not really listen.
I remember a few years ago, not sure when, I prayed to God to have mercy on me and guide me because I was, and would be, totally lost without his guidance. I didn't want my life to end this way. I was desperate and only Allah could help me.
A few years ago, it hit me. I felt I'm observed and watched very closely, not by humans. I felt every action I make no matter how small it is and every road I choose will make a difference. The feeling was just too real. Suddenly, everything that was stupid that I used to do appeared obviously ridiculous that I was ashamed and didn't even understand how I did it before. Life appeared as a test. It was time that I must change now that God offered me a chance. It became very possible and easy to do all that I was ordered in religion and it all became perfectly clear. It became even easier to abandon all the sins and avoid them almost entirely. I knew by heart, and not by mind only as before, that God sees all, hears all and knows all, and that God accepts prayers.
... I told only very few people about this.
That's why I asked you to pray for guidance. People failed miserably to make religion reach my heart before. You can rely on God only.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Out of respect I will not unpack and analyse this in detail other than to say I suggest people get the same sort of feelings out of most religious beliefs, or even non religious mediation or amazing moments in life.
Again thanks for sharing and discussing and starting the conversation
Best regards.
Amr Salah
My eyes changed. It seems that now I can see with belief and Qur'an instead of the normal light the normal eyes depend on. What I see is different from nonbelievers see. People see money, fame, properties ahead and they seek it out. I see that this earthly life is not worth it. It is short and its pleasures are all insignificant and won't stay. The real joy is to try understand life more, to try to be closer to God, by doing what God wants us to do, and to always pray to God.
Look around you, all those people and buildings don't really exist. They're here only temporarily. They're all almost a part of the earth they're walking on. They weren't here before and they won't be here in the future. Many don't see how insignificant and stupid arrogance and pride are even though they can clearly see they're as "human" as others and that it won't be long before their bodies become one with earth.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I suggest it is part of the human mind.
If you talk in your head to what you call god it will reinforce.
You will start to see things through cognitive bias. Reinforcing your belief.
If you don't pray hard enough one day or forget to do some reading of the holy book and trip over or lose something you might think that is god warning you. If you have a religious dream you might think it is a message.
When people pray in an MRI machine we see parts of their brain activate. The sensation is part of brain activity.
That does not mean there is no god involved. Just everything you think and feel and see and hear, your unconscious is all going on in your brain.
I could turn it around and say isn't it prideful to think the universe was made for us, billions of galaxies each with billions of stars, and us created by the creator of the universe who knows every hair on our head, and will grant us eternal life, I will never cease to exist. Is that more prideful or self centred than thinking we evolved from natural processes on an amazing blue planet that is just a speck in the universe, I have just this life to love and to live a good life.
It is obvious to me we are all human, all mortal, all frail. Life is not fair. Some of us are brave enough to face cold hard reality that it is up to us to make meaning in this life. and when we die, like any other animal, it is most likely we will cease to exist. Not wishful thinking and promises of paradise or nirvana.
As I said I have been a Christian seeing everything as spiritual warfare, praying all the time, trying to learn, trying to please a god that eventually I realised was just a figment or imagination shaped by the books and stories I had heard and wanted to believe.
Amr Salah
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I have a deep profound awe for life and the universe you might be surprised about.
You don't need gods and religious belief to be appreciative and amazed by life.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
But I guess you believe in something and have reasons for believing in it.
I don't believe in this thing for other reasons.
And our reasons are either good ones or bad ones.
If they are bad, it is still our choice to believe or not, but maybe we'll both have a better understanding.
Amr Salah
It is different from all those people who got used to what their parents and grandparents did that they no longer feel the need to seek the truth. Some of them would even lie to themselves or detest what they don't know. Some wouldn't dare to think they may be wrong. They're too terrified to even think about it.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
However, most religions evoke personal religious experience, social acceptance etc. It is natural if you grow up with it, maybe 80% will continue to believe what they grew up with.
At the least your cultural programme will strongly shape how you see god or gods and your paradigms for life.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
That seems like an opinion. Other people read the bible and feel something special. Others read Buddhist writings.
What evidence do you have that would indicate it contains truthful claims about reality and the supernatural.
I guess you would agree god is immaterial. We can not detect or examine god. There is no physical evidence for the existence of God. Not only can you not prove that god created the universe, you can not distinguish this whether this god concept exists or not.
So you believe the Qurán when it makes claims that can not be proven. Why? What reason is there to belief the supernatural claims in it?
You might say it doesn't make errors about the things we can test. I would disagree but some of it comes down to interpretation. But it does not automatically follow that the untestable claims are true.
Christians make the same mistake. First there is no evidence that Jesus resurrected, but even if he did, how do we know everything else in the bible is correct. It is an act of faith. There is no proof Jesus is god, or even if there is a god if Jesus Resurrection. It is more likely he is some advanced alien or a robot.
For example, let me write a little book.
Claim 1 - I have an ipad on my lap. You can test this. Say you find it true.
Claim 2 - I am an alien from another born on another planet. We just happen to look like humans.
Do you believe 2 just because 1 if correct. Even if I demonstrated something incredible.
I have seen youtube about black holes or the big bang described in the Qurán. They included pretty speculative interpretations of the text. But even if true. So what. It does not mean the rest is true. Although I would be impressed if the original Qurán had been beamed in from heaven and been made out of some complex titanium alloy and coated with gorilla glass and floated in the air.
Amr Salah
Amr Salah
"I guess you would agree god is immaterial."
No one knows and no one can know and it is even wrong and useless to try to think of it.
Do you expect that your mind that's used to the standards of earthly life would imagine the Creator of the billions of humans, creatures, souls, and all planets???
Moses, pbuh asked God this before. He wanted to see God. God said that Moses, pbuh, wouldn't be able to see Him (with his earthly eyes), but he can look at the mountain in front of him and if the mountain stayed in its place, then Moses may see God. When God appeared to the mountain (I think appeared may be close to the right interpretation) the mountain crashed (in awe, I think) and Moses, pbuh, fainted and asked God for forgiveness. By the way, the mountain where Moses received the Ten Commandments is here in Egypt, in Sinai. It is said that Egypt is the place where the three religions met.
If you want to know God, please read sura number 112 in Qur'an. It's about 4 lines only.
"here is no physical evidence for the existence of God."
!!! The evidence is all around you! Can any human claim he has anything to do with the creation of humans and planets, the distribution of water (by rain etc...) and resources, and the rules that organize life?
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Obviously that doesn't make all the claims true.
I suggest our idea of what god or gods are have changed over time in different places so that every person would be exposed to a set of ideas at a particular time and place.
Even in the abrahamic traditions, god changes, at times more or less anthropomorphic, walking around the garden of eden like a man 3000 years ago, a burning bush, his hand in the temple, infused with Babylonian mythology as a human in the form of Jesus 2000 years ago, to something far more remote 600 years ago.
I suggest Yahweh might have started as a tribal god, part of the Canaanite Parthenon created by El. As the Hebrews become a more distinct group their god fought the other gods and at some stage the idea of monotheism got built in. The Babylonian influence is obvious also.
I guess it depends on whether you believe the books are man made mythology and human religious constructs or something from god.
it is no surprise with our increased understanding of the universe and more critical thinking etc that god has to be invisible.
It is very easy to say god is this unknowable thing beyond our comprehension. That is not how all relgious traditions have seen gods or goddesses or natural spirits. Just one particular view.
A derivative of this is deist views that I am most sympathetic of, that there was a creator but it is remote and does not intervene in the world.
If you start by assuming the books are from a god, it is a kind of circular logic.
Assuming the universe is created is not evidence that it was or for a creator.
I see the universe but don't assume it was made by anything. Why do you. I don't see any evidence for this being.
Natural processes seem to explain things just fine. Why not accept scientific expln
Hope you can see this claim that all this stuff needs to be explained and this can only be explained by a god is a logical fallacy.
Thanks for the discussio
Amr Salah
We believe Jesus, pbuh, was not resurrected, yet. We believe that Jesus, pbuh, "was" ascended to heavens by God's command. We believe Jesus, pbuh, will come back before Doomsday. Now let me make something clear. We believe Jesus, pbuh, was a human-being. Yes, he was a special prophet and he is a servant of God. Yes, Jesus, pbuh, made many miracles because God allowed it, Just like the miracles Moses, pbuh, made because God allowed it. We believe Jesus, pbuh, came to life like Adam, pbuh, came. God commanded that Jesus, pbuh, shall "be".
My English is not good to express the words as they are in Arabic, but I think you got the meaning. Also, you'll find them in English interpretations of the meanings of the words of Qur'an.
You're forgetting that we're simply humans, a walking flesh and bones that lives a short life. All this technology is nothing but tools. Our souls, hearts and our minds are what make our free will and they make us different from other creatures. (that's if we use them properly) That's why Qur'an was the miracle that was given to us. It makes us better humans. Without religion, we're no better than animals.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Why do you believe he was not ressurected but was ascended?
It comes back to you believing one book, others believing another book and me being skeptical about all of them.
why not believe in Buddhas teachings or the Mormons?
I find it hard to differentiate between claims with no evidence to support them.
Our brains and minds make us different from other animals. But we have animal life cycles and bodies. Hearts pump blood. Brains have mind and personaility etc. Souls is just an idea, no proof.
I have no religion and I would argue my ethical system is superior to many religious moralities.
Remember, to me men made all the religious books and there is no evidence for god.
We can be better humans without religion, if we use our brains and reason. We are the smartest animals, we even invented religions. We have animal instincts and bodies and superior reason.
It does not take a genius to figure out killing and stealing are not great. It seems amzing to me that people believe their religion has the right rules not all the the millions of other beliefs.
It also does not take a genius to understand women are equals, that slavery is wrong and that male and female circumcision of children is cruel, and that medieval and iron age religions are not the best morality around.
Just because it is easy to take it from a book, does not make it the best ethical system.
You claim your holy book is a miracle. It might be but I see no evidence it is. It and other religious books are important to people, and I respect their right to choose their faith, but not immune from skepticism about the the magic and claims.
Your religion is not much different different from others in that way. You assume it is true, just like they do.
Do you think I am an animal because I don't have religious belief, yet I have a strong ethical framework I would argue is superior to bible and koran teachings.
Animals with reason can be ethical
Ed Schulte 50+
Your previous response to me seemed to imply that that we sould still defer to Religious authority rather then our ow Heart and Soul when discovering (re-discovering "Who we are". So I post this Rumi poem in reply to you
AM NOT
Muslims! What can I do? I have lost my identity!
I am not a Christian, Jew, pagan, or Muslim.
I am neither an Easterner nor a Westerner,
neither a land nor a sea person.
Nature can't fully account for me,
nor can the whirling cosmos.
I don't exclusively belong to earth, water, fire, or air.
I am not of the invisible-ineffable, nor of the dust--
I am not a process or a being.
I am not of this world or the next, and deserve
neither eternal reward nor eternal punishment.
I am not of Adam or Eve,
not of the original Garden nor the final one.
My home has no address; my tracks leave no trace.
I am neither body nor soul--What can I say?
I belong to the Self of the Beloved.
I have laid all "twos" aside:
this world and that world are one.
I search for One, I recognize One,
I see One clearly, and I call the name of the One.
That unnameable One, the breath of the breath,
is the first and last, the outside and the inside.
I identify no one except by "O That... O This!"
I am drunk on the cup of Love:
here-now and everywhere-all-time have vanished.
I can't handle any business except celebration.
If I spend an instant without you,
that instant makes my whole life seem worthless.
If I can win one moment with you,
I will crush both worlds under my feet
as I dance in joy forever.
My Beloved Shams-i-Tabriz, I am living permanently
intoxicated:
I have no more stories to tell except ones about drunks and
parties.
--Jelaluddin Rumi, "The Diwan of Shams-i-Tabriz"
based on literal translation of number 31 in
"Selected Poems", R.A. Nicholson (1898, pp.124-127),
by Saadi Shakur Chisti (Neil Douglas-Klotz), in
"Desert Wisdom", pp.173, Harper Collins: New York (1995)
Amr Salah
Many people have to deal with the "identity crisis" at some point in their lives. Some people correct themselves and some lose their way and themselves. You know, one's "self" can be the worst enemy of anyone. It can lead you straight to the depth of the abyss, just by following the illusions of earthly (insignificant) pleasures.
One has to choose, to lead himself or let his "self" lead him. One can either spend his (short) life living without a purpose and following earthly pleasures just like animals, or he may seek the truth and realize the purpose of living.
Ed Schulte 50+
of the "Parodical Son" is the enrichment of the Soul-Seif ( capital "S") iow that which was/is/ and always will BE. That is what Rumi is pointing to in poetic verse because that is what he experienced.
True the three Religions formed around Abraham have killed those who say such "lies" but they can't keep Truth "HU" from BEing ....
you asked in the beginning "how much Archaeological Evidence"
now I will ask ..what does "Archaeological Evidence" have to do with anything ...ad you just now based your argument on "earthly". Archaeology is very "earthly".
Truth exists and is ALWAYS available in the HUman Etheric Heart!! and it can be EXPERIENCED just as Rumi described.
Amr Salah
I admit I didn't fully understand the poem. It may take some time for me to get a good understanding.
Archaeological evidence links human history together. It tells us of our past. Nowadays, our lives are very crowded with the "today" and the "now" that we hardly have any time to try to understand life. People of the past had different experiences. They thought differently about life and they offer different views. We're all prisoners of today's ideas. We're all brainwashed or conditioned on different levels. Some knowledge of archaeological evidence can possibly increase the scope of our vision of life. Without knowledge of the past, our view of life would be incomplete. Also, Archaeological evidence have less tendency to tell lies.
"Archaeology is very "earthly"."
Yes, we live on earthly means. It's what's within our reach. We need to work, to take care of ourselves etc in order to survive. Life needs balance. I can't possibly deny the importance of what's "earthly".
"Truth exists and is ALWAYS available in the HUman Etheric Heart!! and it can be EXPERIENCED just as Rumi described."
Well, perhaps this was the way he chose. (I found your words deep, by the way). Sufism has a number of merits (assuming the poet belongs to Sufism or have a similar ideology), but some Sufist ideas are dangerously wrong. One can learn a little from them, but they're not the right place to look for the core of religion. The superstitions should be avoided, though.
One of the things I'm trying to prove is that religion can and should integrate with science. There is no contradiction and no separating line.
Jeremy Garner