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David Roemer

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Materialists and those who think humans evolved from animals are irrational.

The human mind is structured like the scientific method. At the lowest level, humans observe things. This requires paying attention. At the level of intelligence, humans ask questions and invent possible answers. At the level of reflective judgment, humans marshal evidence and decide what is true or just probable. The next level is free will, that is, deciding what to do with our bodies.

Materialists say animals pay attention and are intelligent and rational. They don't say, however, that animals have free will. What they say is that free will is an illusion.

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  • Steven Parker

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    Aug 29 2012: Your argument is unclear. You are asserting that materialists suggest that animals do not have free will, which is a false assumption. You are also making the implied premise that there must be free will and that materialists who would suggest otherwise (not all materialists are against the existence of free will in some sense), to you they are also irrational. If doubting the existence of free will is irrational, then it must be proven that free will exists, else you are the one who is being irrational by making the unjustified assumption and accusing others of being irrational for disagreeing with you. So, can you prove free will?
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      David Roemer

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      Aug 29 2012: I'm not saying that I can prove humans have free will. That we have free will is an observation. It is especially clear when we do something that is hard to do, like sticking to a low-calorie diet. This raises the question: What is the relationship between myself and my body? One theory is that free will is an illusion. There is very little evidence for this theory. Rational people judge the theory to be false.

      In short, I am saying people who think humans do not have free will have very bad judgment.
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        Obey No1kinobe 50+

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        Aug 30 2012: I disagree with your final statement. Even if you think it likely that free will in a religious sense does not exist, there is the illusion of practical free will even if many of our decisions come from our unconscious.

        You can deny absolute god given free will and still have just as good judgement as those who think we have free will imbued from some invisible, intangible, unobservable, practically non existent agency.

        You can have an ethical framework superior to the religious ones. You can have self discipline and reason at least as well.
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          David Roemer

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          Aug 30 2012: It is bad judgment to think people don't have free wil. You seem to have read only the last sentence, and misread that!
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        Obey No1kinobe 50+

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        Aug 31 2012: I may have got it wrong first time. However i suggest there are reasonable arguments to suggest there is not god given or even simplistic naturalistic free will. With enough information and understanding we might be able to predict human decisions. Practically we feel we have free will.
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          David Roemer

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          Aug 31 2012: We experience free will, just like we know the sky is blue. Free will is a mystery and humans are embodied spirits. Since other humans exist, humans are finite beings. God is an infinite being. An infinite being exists because finite beings need a cause.
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        Obey No1kinobe 50+

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        Aug 31 2012: David do you have proof that humans are embodied spirits, or os this just a metaphor?

        Your terrible logic is not proof a good exists.

        There could be many other causes for the universe. The conditions for it could have existed eternally. Or time may have no meaning before it existed. etc etc. We don't know.

        Ignorance about the origins of the universe is not proof of a god.

      • John Dunbar 10+

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        Aug 31 2012: David do you choose your brain? your body? Your thoughts? Isnt everything dependent on cause and effect? Free will is unbelievably hard to define and even harder to make sense of. I think you are confusing will power and the excercise of the frontal lobe.

        This man explains the illusion of free will far better than i can http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g

        Also you say there is very little evidence for free will as an illusion. What possible evidence do you have that free will is real? Expressing will power explains very little.
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          David Roemer

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          Aug 31 2012: Free will is hard to define? It is impossible to define. If it is only hard to define, what is the definition?

          I am not saying free will is "real". It is an observation that we have free will. Humans ask: What is the relationship between myself and my body? One theory is that free will is an illusion. What is the evidence for this? Another theory is that it is a mystery. This theory is supported by the evidence.

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