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Does sending people to AA, along with government and university support for AA programs, violate our freedom of religion in America?
For those of you unfamiliar with the AA program, it takes alcoholics and drug addicts, and puts them on a 12 step program to wellness.
The first step, is admiting that you are completely powerless over your addiction to alcohol, and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.
The second step is to accept, that since you have no power over your addiction, you must appeal to a higher power, or god, in order to overcome your addiction.
Let me repeat, in case you don't understand. A government supported, university encouraged, and doctor approved program for treating people who like to drink too much, begins, by telling you the only person who can help you, is god.
In the words of Doug Stanhope "There is no such thing as addiction. There are just things you enjoy doing, more than being alive". When the federal government tells you that you must undergo a rehabilitative program, because you engaged in a behavior they found destructive... And, that rehabillitative program tells you "You're not strong enough to deal with this, you need god". Has the federal government violated your right to pursue the religion of your choice?
Should religion, be allowed to advertise itself, as "alcoholism treatment"?
John MacDougall
Chria Addo
Kate Blake 50+
Have a look at the 16 Guidelines, they are a suggested ethical standard for those with no religion. Maybe they could be asked to do something with addicitions? Addictions are heavy and hard to beat, just that the Christians got in first. Now we need to broaden that out so that people have more choices. But if it's helping many now we have to be careful about throwing that away.
Haven't met any AA or narcs-anon who consider they found God and returned to church? Owning they have NO power over it doesn't seem right when I believe we must accept responsibilty for all our actions and in-actions.
David Hamilton 50+
I don't think it needs to be abandoned, I think it shouldn't be supported by government. They have a right to exist, but they are a very Catholic, confess your sins, oriented organization. Forcing people to go to them for help is a bit messed up. Also, I think the organization should reform, if nothing else for it's own sake, I think it's turning people away from a helpful tool.
Finally, we have a huge problem with addiction in this country, so I'm just curious if any of the countries who chose the non religious route are more pleased with the results.
There is also one other problem I have to mention with the organization, basically, your sponsor is your priest, he or she hears all of your darkest secrets... and everyone knows, that it is a running joke in AA, that the 13th step, is that your sponsor has sex with you. An organization can help a bunch of people, but still be taking advantage of others.
Kate Blake 50+
I recently drafted a year's course for addictions - including substances; sex; etc. This includes group activities but of a more enquiring nature, camps, talks, etc. But this is just a draft - none of my ex-colleagues are in a situation to run a pilot. Hence the only real 'success' cases I know of are attributed to AA. At least in India they have a few more choices of gods to guide them ... sorry.
They are not SINS, they are mistakes - we all make them and we should all learn from them. If we repeat our mistakes too often one must wonder about their ability to grow/develop.
Indian people and their literature directly attribute current US difficulties to the fact that they have over-indulged their desires/addictions - what do you think?
David Hamilton 50+
It is a direct abuse of authority for a sponsor to have sex with a sponsee, but if you were a 30 year old guy, who's finally getting sober, and getting his life together, and a new crop of people forced into the program drops in... You think you're looking for a guy to sponsor? Well... If that's your thing.
Telling two ex addicts to spend a bunch of time together in private telling each other secrets... Of course they hook up constantly. And, more power too them, except for the whole abusing authority part of it. Getting alcoholics to pair off and help one another, great idea... Turn your back, they're gonna have sex : p
US difficulties, are mostly to do with rampant corruption, and manipulation of the press. We work longer hours per family than anyone else in the world... Or we did, until very recently, and India or China just caught up. The average man and wife in America works over 100 hours a week as a team, and yet we're constantly told that we're lazy, and entitled. It's a nightmare to be a productive human being and live in the country right now.
We are the richest 3rd world country on the planet, and our politics are designed to keep it that way. We have the worst wealth distribution, of any "first world" country. In other words, America houses the richest 1% of people from all over the world, and almost every other family works 120 hours a week to die in debt.
I think desires and addictions are the effect, not the cause. I also think having a "god" based program for treating addiction, in a very secular country, doesn't help. Divorce rates don't help, men and women complain at one another too much here, rather than working together to solve problems... There are endless causes. Tariffs are too low.
Kate Blake 50+
US does sound a mess, but are you all driven enough to get on top of it?
David Hamilton 50+
I'm really a sucker for HBO's new show "The Newsroom", but it's an incredibly optimistic, almost naively beautiful piece of art. If that artistic idealism, can be embodied by some of our most important institutions, we can turn this ship around.
I have a lot of faith in the idea that having every race and culture on the planet under one roof, working to solve problems, is an almost perpetual energy generator.
Check out this clip if you haven't seen the show, I think it expresses sentiment that almost all informed Americans are dealing with right now. We'll pull out of it... probably.
http://youtu.be/S4r7hIWln7Q
David Hamilton 50+
That's easy to say though... My question is, what are some of your countries doing right? What is the alternative? Is it purely based in researched psychology? For my theory to be true, some of you, would have to have a much better system for helping people overcome drug addiction.
John Dunbar 10+
But the idea of abstinence seems to be most effective and there is some evidence to support that there is an invisible line in the sand one crosses with substances, where any and all control is out the window and the brain just seeks the pleasure of intoxication.
There are some new age treatments but mostly there associated with medications and maintenance for addiction or alcohol by giving small doses out at set time periods so as to curb the criminal behavior associated with craving and finding the substance.
peter lindsay 30+
David Hamilton 50+
David Hamilton 50+
Or do you just have an entirely different attitude as some countries do... Some people are alcoholics, and that's terrible for them, but they can change whenever they see fit.
Or, are there better programs, centered around exercise, community, etc.?
peter lindsay 30+
Lejan . 30+
Addiction is different from being braindead, so I hope there are alternatives programs to choose from for those who wish to!
I support the idea 'He who heals is right' as long as the reslults are above 'statistical noise'. So if religious aproaches work, I am fine with it, as long noone is forced to convert or had to start to believe against will.
So if god becomes part of the cure, the circle of patients becomes clear and exclusive!
David Hamilton 50+
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
This is direct from AA.org... Sound like a cult yet? They have lost several court cases by the way... but it still is a mandated sentence in many states, for dui and public drunkenness
Lejan . 30+
What are the chances to get those states liberated from this medieval custom?
1, 4, 8, 9, 10 seems safe to me, yet should be considered by specialists.
No.12 just made me smile. So whoever wishes his or hers ideology to survive 2012 years and more, these are the guys you better learn from... And may the force be with you! ;o)
Lejan . 30+
David Hamilton 50+
The colleges don't actually financially support AA specifically, but during freshmen orientation, these people always have a huge booth, and are trying to save teenagers who may becoming alcoholics. It's a noble goal, but why at a government level, they approve of the organization being wrapped up in values that are so obviously Catholic, I don't understand.
I think 4 8 9 and 10 are good, but I don't think everyone who's ever gotten a dui is powerless to control their addiction... Number 1, just seems like an issue that's more personal, some people are out of control, some people have a vice, that they indulge in occasionally, in my humble opinion.
Out of thumbs up.
David Hamilton 50+
Lejan . 30+
I would not mind them handing out information on addiction and to offer free prevention strategies for young people, as long as those information and methodes were scientificly correct and no superstitious voodoo! Praying the rosary would not be a valid approach to me!
If I understand the term dui correctly, 'Driving Under the Influence', and probably referring to drugs and alcohol, I then agree with you that not everyone were powerless to control their actions. Yet those would not be addicted, they would be stupid, which is dangerous enough in my view.
For a positive treatment of addictions it becomes necessary for the pacient to at first stop denial and to accept that they are addicted. Only then a therapy would make sense because it reqires the
collaboration of the pacient, as he/she will be the one doing the difficult work in this process.
As I don't know much about the details on addiction treatment in the EU I will look it up and get back to you for an answer.
Lejan . 30+
Medical science itself does research on prevention, identification, therapy and rehabilitation strategies and works together with therapy institutions and rehabilitation centres.
All involved partners are organized within a roof framework which includes 1.300 addiction consulting centers, 300 specialized hospital units, 10.000 self-help groups, day and night -care centres and aftercare centers which, in total, include more than 10.000 physicians, psychologists, social workers and pedagogues (fulltime) and more than 20.000 supporting volunteers.
This network includes religious charities such as Caritas and Blue Cross, which, as my informations are stating, work accordingly to the roof framework guidelines. But I am not 100% sure on that.
In any case there are enough non-religious alternatives for non-believers.
I could not find specific information on other EU countries and their addiction program structures, but there is an overall EU roof framework which conducts conventions for scientific exchange on this topic.
David Hamilton 50+
Lejan . 30+
I trust in the excellence of the US medical education and that this will stop this inverted 'exorcism' one day.
Random Chance 30+
As a long standing member of A.A. I think you make a very valid point.
First, I am against the government trying to "reprogram" anyone, even prisoners. Those so-called law-abiding citizens who are walking free, are as as institutionalized as those behind bars. We have to get rid of the programming altogether, me thinks.
Nevertheless, I think there is a violation when the institutions you mentioned direct someone in the manner in which you laid out. I'm not sure that is the literal case in all instances, but on first glance and first reading, I think you are correct and accurate in that there is violation in the right to worship as one chooses.
But also, keep in mind that alcohol has been around for just over 9,000 years. Wine, discovered in pottery in China in 2004 was dated at that age. The oldest found. Since that time, I think it safe to say there have been what we call "alcoholics" and in all that time the majority have failed at getting and remaining sober. So something is really needed.
The concept of quitting on one's own power is probably the most tried method over thousands of years, and has proven to be an abject failure. Sorry, but it's true.
Most.don't really understand the concept of powerlessness that is so distasteful to the thinking of most people, and the same is true for the majority of those in A.A. Oh, they're gonna hate me for this!!
It isn't the concept of "God-is-ness" that is necessary to grasp and accept, but the concept of "powerlessness" over alcohol that is the idea one must understand, admit and and subscribe to in A.A. Most other kinds of programs don't like the powerlessness aspect as well.
Alcoholics are not powerless over other things in their lives (well, they are, just as we all are over the entire thing really)
It's generally true that one cannot begin to get well until and unless they truly admit they have a problem that they have failed to overcome on their own. God is not needed to achieve and keep sobriety.
pat gilbert 50+
At the end of the day the bigger problem is the addiction, anything that alleviates that imo is FINE.
David Hamilton 50+
Also, honestly, I think any group of people you spend time with, who want you to get off alcohol, would do just as well as AA. It's not the powerlessness, and the higher power that get you off, it's the support of a community, and some friends, or a loved one.
"The concept of quitting on one's own power is probably the most tried method over thousands of years, and has proven to be an abject failure"
No proof. Give me one piece of evidence that is credible to suggest that since AA came into being, there is even 1 less alcoholic. I would rephrase that, the concept of quitting on ones own power, worked fine for 9,000 years... We got here didn't we?
Alcohol consumption in the United states since the institution of AA http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh27-1/30-38.htm
Best visual is at the bottom, in fourty years average alcohol consumption has gone up, then gone down, but overall, it's exactly the same as at 1960...
Random Chance 30+
"No proof. Give me one piece of evidence that is credible to suggest that since AA came into being, there is even 1 less alcoholic. I would rephrase that, the concept of quitting on ones own power, worked fine for 9,000 years... We got here didn't we?"
No, we are here. Still with alcoholic problems and not making much of dent. That is statistically true. But, I never said there is one less alcoholic. I simply stated that those with problems drinking, not having other options for stopping, more than likely tried doing so on their own will power and that method has probably been attempted for hundreds if not thousands of years. That has been a failure that is in the 90% range. Still is. If people managed it on their own, they certainly aren't showing up in hospitals, prisons, psyche wards and other places problem drinkers wind up in and the numbers who need help, are a helluva lot larger than one or two.
Much of what I have read here is riddled with misunderstanding. No treatment of any kind has a success rate. They all have failure rates, and that isn't success in my opinion. A.A. falls into this category too.
I don't use my alcoholism as an excuse for anything. I am guilty, I did it all and I'm sober. There is one misconception right there and it has been mentioned here by Mr. Gilbert. This kind of rationalizing abuse is found everywhere, or are you unaware of them? Police brutality and lying and framing innocent people? Politicians who cheat, lie and steal because they can, or their friends do, or is it just because they are better than you? What about bankers, very recent bankers and what they justified doing to the world's economy and future lives of others? How about coaches, teachers, priests, judges, and heads of football teams?
A person who values becoming sober, generally admits their wrongs, unlike all those I just mentioned. Something wrong with that? There is. Everyone needs to do it. You really don't get it nor understand it. And Y should U?
David Hamilton 50+
Life is difficult, many people will always turn to drugs and alcohol to escape it. We must use the best tools in our arsenal to help bring them back. Don't you agree that by starting from a place which requires faith in a higher power, the organization turns away many people it could otherwise help?
John Dunbar 10+
I also dont like that AA tells you to pray things away. "Just turn to prayer" they say, "know your higher power loves you" it gets to a point where you have to ask if a person is giving up one self indulgent vice for another: the belief that the creator of the universe interjects and cares for you. This type of a belief has been documented to induce pleasure and can lull you to sleep and close you off from yourself, if you allow it. At the end of the day spirituality is better than addiction. The real goal to me is finding out what that means and who you are. I do believe thats the end goal of AA making peace with yourself and others, so like everything else on the planet it can be good and bad.
David Hamilton 50+
Them's fightin' words for people going through suffering. "You mean the one that did this to me? And could intervene, but doesn't because I don't bow before him? That god?". It's just the worst place to start, and it's like 8 of the steps.
I could see if it was the 7th step or something "Explore your spiritual side, and try to find value in your own life, and all the life around you". Then, fine, tax free keep doing the good work... but it's basically Catholicism, with "sponsors" instead of priests. It's not even really hiding itself well, that can be an option, but it can't be the only option.
pat gilbert 50+
If the guy is ordered to do this as part of a sentence his rights are gone as he is in effect a prisoner. Prisoners also cannot vote, determine what they are going to do, eat, schedule, etc.
If it works I don't have a problem with it. I don't agree with the idea that they are powerless as that is akin to saying you have to do something and you can't do something.
Prisoners have been determined to be a liability to society therefore their rights to determine what they will do is taken away as it should be.
By the way, 80% of the prisoners are drug addicts in the U.S. , something is out of whack with the jurisprudence of this subject.
David Hamilton 50+
80% of the prisoners are drug addicts in the US, because we are one of the only first world countries who put people in jail for non violent drug crimes, especially possession. Having a religion based sobriety program, with 0 proven efficacy probably isn't helping though.
pat gilbert 50+
But a DUI is a felony, it is not nothing so if they error in forcing them to take care of themselves I'm cool with that.
Stewart Gault 30+
David Hamilton 50+
Stewart Gault 30+
Peter Law 30+
:-)
David Hamilton 50+
So, no, I'd rather ban things proven not to help people thank you very much.
A 2006 Cochrane systematic review by Ferri et al on studies of alcohol treatment conducted between 1966 and 2005 that investigated the efficacy of both AA and non-AA twelve-step program attendance, concluded that "no experimental studies unequivocally demonstrated the effectiveness of AA" in treating alcoholism.
Also, as a man of faith, you must understand, that many who turn to alcoholism are atheist and agnostic. In your experience dealing with people who are atheist or agnostic... Would they react well to the opener "You are a powerless human being, but god can save you"?
Is that how Jesus would start of the conversation with someone who had serious issues with misery and depression? "You are powerless"
Peter Law 30+
Your issue seems to be with government approval of anything that mentions 'god'. I'm afraid that what you propose would pretty much decimate the charitable sector.
I witnessed to an ex-AA guy once. He didn't want to know. He had his god, who had gotten him off the drink, & didn't want to hear about any others, in case he went back on again. Not a healthy attitude, I agree, but at least he was dry.
On the other hand, I know a guy who was a down & almost out with drink etc. who became a Christian. He too is dry & working with others in the local Chritisn rehab centre. He is a changed guy & happy to talk about anything.
Hope is the key; people need some reason to live. Frailty & death doesn't quite tick the box. Eternal, glorious life is a better carrot.
Good luck with AA. If you succeed, I hope you've got something better to replace it with.
:-)
David Hamilton 50+
I understand where you are coming from, but I don't have a problem with AA existing... I think it is inefficient, and I think it inspires resentment in those who currently lack faith, so there should be more options and research.
I am not against charity, or church charity, I just don't think it is the best we can do for "alcoholism treatment".
Eternal glorious life, either exists or it doesn't, whether you believe in it or not.
Gerald O'brian 50+