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David Hamilton

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Should degrees have "patches"?

Simple enough starting point. In the modern world our knowledge base is expanding so quickly that 5 years after you get a degree, quite a bit of what you learned is obselete, and quite a few important discoveries have been made. If you go into business, or government research, you may actually surpass the knowledge on any degree program, in your specific discipline... But, you'll still miss out on advances in your field of study, that do not apply to your business, or research.

Should modern universities offer degree patches, the way software companies offer patches. Every 5 years or so, each school is meant to design a one or two week online course, specifically designed to keep people who have already been granted degrees, in touch with the most up to date information in the field.

Having these patches on your degree, would then be quite valuable in the eyes of an employer I imagine. Some companies may even offer to pay for you to go get your patch...

Kinda seems like a no brainer to me.

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Topics: College Education
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Closing Statement from David Hamilton

Very fun and engaging discussion. Personally, I think MIT should get busy on this. Unlike many people here, however, I believe that proving knowledge and skills is the purpose of education. I believe every child is naturally curious, we don't teach them to be creative, we do the opposite. Teaching facts we know about the universe, or even ones we believe to be true because of a preponderance of evidence, has a place, and it's an incredibly important institution, one in desperate need of modern reform. As a bonus, first institution to do it well, gets an incredible revenue stream. Peace and love.

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  • Gord G 30+

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    Sep 1 2012: Knowledge isn't the end goal of education. Learning to think is the true advantage of higher education. The patches (version updates) are simply shared discoveries. I believe the individuals that fail in their post-institution lives, are those who don't recognize education as a process of discovery, and only think of it as an accumulation of knowledge.
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    John Moonstroller 30+

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    Sep 1 2012: I think it depends entirely on the amount of research information being generated by the specific discipline. Thanks to the Internet, we can make that process less burdensome.

    In the old days, we subscribed to a magazine that focused on our specific discipline. My ex-wife was a Certified Nurse Midwife and had to attend updating classes periodically. After a few years, she was forced to get re-certified.

    With math and physics, it's sort of built into the discipline.

  • Ken Feigh

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    Aug 29 2012: The nursing profession is big on this. To keep your license and the ability to practice you must put in so many hours per year of training. An established "patch" system...

    Obviously this is has a positive benefit to patient care and their life expectancy.

  • Vamshi Krishna Beeravelly

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    Aug 28 2012: I would like to answer the question by addressing the basic assumption or underlying argument. The argument upon which this suggestion is based, 'quite a bit of what you learned is obsolete' is met by many leading universities by providing project-based curricula. As a result, professors at these universities are well-regarded in their respective fields for gaining insightful advances and cutting-edge knowledge as they use real case examples for their growth. However, these form only a tiny minority of educational institutions and universities. The real question in my opinion now is how to get the vast majority of the remaining institutions and even the remaining courses in these leading universities converted to project-based curricula?

  • Aisha Nurullah Siddiqui

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    Aug 27 2012: Yes i agree .... Universities should offer patches...
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    Obey No1kinobe 50+

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    Aug 27 2012: Sounds like a good idea.
    Ultimately it is up to the individual to keep themselves up to date.
    Some professions are better at supporting or requiring this than others.

  • Thang Tran

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    Aug 25 2012: "Simple enough starting point. In the modern world our knowledge base is expanding so quickly that 5 years after you get a degree, quite a bit of what you learned is obselete, and quite a few important discoveries have been made. If you go into business, or government research, you may actually surpass the knowledge on any degree program, in your specific discipline... But, you'll still miss out on advances in your field of study, that do not apply to your business, or research."

    Not true, this mostly depends on what you study in the first place. My field is engineering. What we learn and are taught are the fundamentals of engineering during the first 2 years then go on to apply and develop those skills the 2 years after. Some of what you learn, you may never use, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily obsolete.

    Research programs gives you more in-depth knowledge into specific topics. That hardly substitutes for the fundamentals that you learn during your 1st 4 years, aka communication, science, math, and computation. Should we drop Newtonian/Classical physics because of special and general relativity?

    I believe the reality is, people are surprised that after 4 years that working at the work place will still mean learning, perhaps going to more classes, and being taught more things. I

    I once asked an electrical engineer what he does at Boeing. He told mechanical engineering. I asked him how he was able to work seeing as how he had no prior education in mechanical engineering. He told he learned as he went.

  • george lockwood 30+

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    Aug 25 2012: Just a thought - look how many people including experts ignore the basics. Look at Economics As an interested undergrad in Introductory Economics I was told that no one reads Malthus. Well Darwain and Wallace did. I was told he was negative. What about moral restraint. Duh, they never read Malthus. What about the problems with wages in America. Go back about teo hundred (200) years and read Ricardo. Also our text and Samuelson had a note how companies lowered wages ninty(90) years ago. A few years ago there was a great deal of interest in Chaos theory, but before that except in Russia the new guy was Euler. There are new things under the sun, but they are not many. Somehow I don't think the Higgs Boson is our most pressing problem. What am I saying there are many ways of looking at problems Reread Science and Sanity Count Alfred K had some good ideas about basics. However useful engineering math is Go to B School and the emphasis will be different, and the non Quants still won't get it. Would the world really be better with Mr. Spock as President or CEO Well sometimes. Look at the Martial Arts in some a black belt is only the beginning not the end. School is a key to enter. In the professions there is CLE. As expensive as I have been told college/University or whatever now is figure out how to move on and to grow.

  • Ken-Shin Wong

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    Aug 24 2012: For most college-educated professionals, their undergraduate and perhaps graduate degree afforded them an attainment greater than specific 100% applicable knowledge, it gave them the solid foundation to problem-solve, and practice to lead themselves and others. I suggest that degree "patches" are unnecessary, but the function of obtaining the most recent relevant update to their academic knowledge is already supplied by: 1) annual continuing education requirements for retaining certification within specific fields (i.e. CPA CPE, Bar CLE, PE CEP); 2) profession-specific trade publications, books and online forums; 3) emerging free/paid online education venues such as coursera.org, edx.org and even khanacademy.org so that the professional can tailor their interest beyond degree/certification requirements and learn whatever is relevant and interesting to the individual. As others opined, it doesn't make sense to necessitate a continued academic relationship to your alma mater, just to get/keep ahead in your profession.

  • Hespera Henzell

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    Aug 24 2012: I think we're diverging a bit from the topic at hand. I'll try to bring my commentary back into relevance by expanding on the first point that Lepetit made - that there's a difference when pay yourself and when the government pays on your behalf. Where I live student loans are much lower than in the USA and only have to be paid once the individual earns a certain amount, so I imagine there is a lot less pressure to start paying it back. Unemployment also isn't as big of a problem (plenty of graduates spend a short amount of time unemployed while they seek jobs). I think it gives greater freedom to do further qualifications, so ongoing professional development may be less difficult. But that's just speculation.

    Never the less I like the idea of your scheme - it would be great to be provided with a short refresher every 5 or so years. I study pharmaceutical drugs so in 5 years everything will be different. And I won't have time to sift through all the papers on every drug. What would be good for me is getting updates when our understanding of key concepts advances. You might miss this looking through papers or even reviews.

    I'm planning to subscribe to a couple of major journals when I finish, but I get the feeling that won't be good enough. We actually have a bit of a problem in the medical field where there is so much being discovered that practitioners can't keep up. We need a solution to this.
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      David Hamilton 50+

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      Aug 24 2012: Thank you very much. I apologize for getting baited into another discussion I happen to enjoy on the topic of education, and getting into a bit of an offensive posture. I tend to think student loans are very high in the US, because too many people have degrees in fields that do not translate to actual job skills.

      I think by taking on these debts, our citizens are slowly going to change our focus, and move back towards science, math, and engineering. Having this belief, however, makes me think that the entire Western world is in for a bit of a rude awakening in regards to how much money it spends teaching children art and music, which they can, and already do learn about on the internet for free. I don't think the taxes you pay for education are well spent, nor the debts Americans incur... That is an entirely different discussion though, which would be fun if you started it : )

  • Bipedal Joe

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    Aug 23 2012: Perhaps there are better metrics for measuring knowledge and competence then contemporary degrees... A more gamified patch system would probably optimize it, but it´s far from optimal. We need indicators, but at the core I believe in the social market when it comes to measuring knowledge, intuition is one of the most effective algorithms we have access to. But patches, or badges is great! Like a badge for doing your first abdominal surgery, or coding your first JAVA pattern recognizer. Thats it! Not patches, badges! You don´t need to know my degree if I´ve successfully coded or performed surgery on a professional level. Just look at my badge, like in a videogame. Degrees are so pre-informationage-ish...
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    Wesley Diphoko

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    Aug 23 2012: Education should stand the test of time. People should be taught fundamental principles that can be applied in the dynamic and changing world.
    In some instances and for some fields of study patches may be necessary.
    "Yes" to patches but not for degrees. It should mainly be for a course and not for the entire degree.

  • Thomas Dooley

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    Aug 23 2012: This is a great idea, and one that may become very nessesary as technolongy continues to develop at an every increasing rate. Many professionals already carry out continued professional development, so the "patches" should definately be a voluntary add-on and not a must do.

  • Hugo Lepetit

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    Aug 22 2012: " The reason you pay a government entity thousands of dollars ... "
    I guess here is the difference : in France you almost pay nothing for your education.
    School comes from greek "skolè" that means free time, idleness. It is not meant to serve only economical purposes.


    Not all people have the luck to have a good environnement to learn critical judgement and enjoy reading at 12. Poor people or children having bad atmosphere at home for instance would not make it to degrees easily. The school system here is a way to guarantee that everyone has its chances not to reproduce an elit of rich. It has its flaws and its costs though.
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      David Hamilton 50+

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      Aug 22 2012: You mean... In France, other people are forced to pay thousands of dollars for your education... and still it teaches you no discernable job skills. Then, you are forced to pay for the same quality education to be given to everyone else. Is there still no gap between rich and poor in education in France? Because if rich people still "mysteriously" take advantage of free education, more often then poor people do... You tax the poor, to pay for the rich... Just a thought.

      • Brad Edgar

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        Aug 23 2012: Yet this is what we do in K-12 here. Why not extend it 2 to 4 years based on merit?
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          David Hamilton 50+

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          Aug 23 2012: The USA has one of the best university systems in the world... In K-12 we're approximately 12th. No one would trade our university system model for our K-12 model on merit.

      • Brad Edgar

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        Aug 23 2012: I am simply trying to say the cost of these outstanding universties is quickly outgrowing their benifit. Maybe there should be insurance so if you don't get your degree or can get a job in your feild then it would kick in and pay your student loans.

        After all, we have insurance for unhealthly people that can afford to go to the doctor anymore, maybe we should have it for dumb people also.

      • Hespera Henzell

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        Aug 23 2012: In Australia we heavily subsidise tertiary education. We also pay people of lower socio-economic status to study. We tax wealthier people more than poorer ones, and those who earn below a certain amount are not taxed anything. It is hardly taxing the poor to pay for the rich. I think you will find that most Western nations operate under similar schemes.
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          David Hamilton 50+

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          Aug 23 2012: In other words, you tax working people, farmers, construction workers, and laborers, for a system, which none of them have the free time to use. Meanwhile, people born into white collar, wealthy, and upper middle class homes, have plenty of time to improve their education, so they do... for free. Thus the taxes of working people, pay for the education of upper middle class and above people, and give those upper middle class people credentials which insist that they will never have to labor. It's quite a nice system if you start out on the top.

  • Martin Owen

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    Aug 22 2012: A degree is meant to give you the skills to carry out the research yourself. If people are genuinely interested in what they studied and the area in which they work, there won't be any problem keeping up to date.
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      David Hamilton 50+

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      Aug 22 2012: Or... Maybe UCLA, has a bit more time, money, and doctors at their disposal, so they do better research than I do. That's just one possible scenario.

      • Martin Owen

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        Aug 22 2012: This is true, but what stops you from reading their research?
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          David Hamilton 50+

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          Aug 22 2012: Copyright and or patent law?

          Nothing actually, in most cases. However, if every five years each department collected the most important new research in my degree field, into a 40 hour lecture, and then let me take a test on it to prove I'm up to date... I would pay for that product.

          Many people would not. If I was in a rough economy, that would give me a leg up... I think someone's gonna generate some serious revenue with this... and it's probably going to be UC Berkeley. I'm a bit overconfident at times however, so this may just be a manifestation of that.
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    Nicole Small

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    Aug 22 2012: If you're a self-starter or self-motivated, it might be a good idea just to do the research yourself. Some sites offer free newsletters to keep you up-to-date on new advancements in that particular field. Colleges would likely suggest that keeping up with the industry of your choice is your responsibility and not theirs. The company you work for could provide you with more training as the industry changes, as well, which makes more sense (to me) than asking the schools to provide that service. I believe that the companies should be responsible for providing paid training for qualifying employees. If there is no way to keep up with your industry for free via study material or paid, through company training, then I suppose your only other option would be to suggest the idea of a "patch" course to your college. It might be possible to inquire about re-enrolling in the classes you believe you'll benefit from. You could suggest re-enrollment as a substitute for a "patch." I feel a school MIGHT be able to work with you on that. In order to create a "patch" course, you'd have to have a demand for it, so passing around a petition would be a good start.

  • Hugo Lepetit

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    Aug 22 2012: This idea of patch should be considered carefully since a lot of degrees are not about being up to date but rather having a certain disposition of the mind that allows to deal with whatever new knowledge is needed in your field. A great example is computer sciences : what matter the most is your ability to adapt and to think, not what technology or programmation language you ended to learn.

    In another words : is the goal of a degree solely to get you skills that the job markets is looking for or is also a time to mature and improve oneself thinking and critical judgement abilities ?

    If people want to know which technologies you are an expert, what are your fields of expertise, they can look at your previous missions on your resume and even give a call.
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      David Hamilton 50+

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      Aug 22 2012: "is the goal of a degree solely to get you skills that the job markets is looking for or is also a time to mature and improve oneself thinking and critical judgement abilities ?"

      I see this question over and over again. The reason you pay a government entity thousands of dollars, is to certify that you have a job skill... I learned how to critically think, enjoy reading, and care about self improvement by the time I was 12.

      If degrees are just meant to help people "mature", they shouldn't be a tool for the rich to stay rich, and I'm very happy I didn't waste my time or money getting one past AS.

  • Akshay Baraik

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    Aug 21 2012: Sorry, but didn't understand the meaning of Patches in Degrees. Could someone tell what it is?

  • k ballard

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    Aug 21 2012: Great idea as long as they are offered @ no additional charge .

  • Casey Billups

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    Aug 21 2012: What Robin Said, or even upgrades in a masters or doctorate.
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    Robin Patin 10+

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    Aug 17 2012: 'Patches' already exist. They are called 'certificates' and 'advanced learning' programs. Basically, its a high priced shake-down from universities and institutions so that they can trap people in more debt after their university years are complete.

    I just finished paying for my Master degree - 8 years after completing the program. I am none to eager to take on more debt. If a company I am working for wants to pay for my continuing education - I'm for it. If I have to foot the bill, no thanks.

    IWe also have to realize that we can't educate ourselves out of ever scenario. If the sun doesn't shine, the answer is "more education".

    Damn, how much education do you think a human being needs before what they're learning needs to be backed by experience? Pretty soon you'll need a PhD to sweep floors. Sad. We're moving to a seriously over-educated society where that education means less and less in the job market.

  • edd edd

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    Aug 17 2012: no...after you got a degree you will find a job,sometimes in the same field and sometimes not and from now on this is the job that is very important and if you wanna be successful you should be the best in your job and of course if you wanna be the best in you job you should be up to date so we have these patches already and it does not need to be compulsory...it up to people and their choice.
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      David Hamilton 50+

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      Aug 22 2012: Often times however, a human being will change from one job to another, have their business shut down, or simply be fired during a bad patch in their life when they are irresponsible. Patches offer the unemployed a tool for updating their knowledge quickly and efficiently. They also offer elderly and retired people a chance to prove that they still have their wits about them, if they choose to re enter the job market. I do not want to make these compulsory.

  • walter crockett

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    Aug 13 2012: In a word......Yes! And if thy chose not to upgrade, their degree should be revoked until thy do so.

  • Michael Cox

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    Aug 10 2012: Interesting idea, patching a degree... I have supposed that the point of education was to teach you how to expand learning on your own. I will ask you to consider your idea carefully as it could introduce educational 'red-lining' - that being the existent of a real constraint of time/funding toward patching. Should people be penalized because they chose to make a family?

    Further, I see job postings now that require a degree with salaries that cannot fund an average college loan debt. Given that unfortunate reality, I could support your concept, but only in conjunction with a plan which reduces the cost of a college education to nearly zero. Such a plan reduces the initial burden of education, and removes any financial penalty later for persons wishing a family life.

  • Kevin Holbrook

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    Aug 9 2012: Brilliant idea, especially anything to do with computing.
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    elizabeth muncey 10+

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    Aug 9 2012: From what I know about what happens here in the U.K., we call this continuing Professional Development (C.P.D.). It seems to be aimed at people in health and service based professions. There are courses available both in university type establishments and from private training companies that offer 'credits' and a certificate for attending and participating in a named course. Some professional organisations demand evidence of C.P.D. as a precondition of continued registration with them. Some of the courses are really expensive but the system seems to work. The beauty of it is sometimes you can attend a course that does not seem directly related to your original qualification but does build and enhance on your skill or knowledge or information base in a way that evidences a capacity for constructive thinking.
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    Eric Henry

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    Aug 9 2012: Well, I've gone back and forth on my view of this proposal, while reading the responses. My initial reaction was that this would just be another marketing scheme for universities to make more money. Almost like putting an expiration date on your degree.

    As has already been mentioned, several fields (my wife's included) demand continuing education to maintain credentials, so your proposal could formalize that mandate.

    A couple of questions I have, however:

    (1) People are so mobile right now, how would a person, with a degree from New York, get their patch if they now live in Los Angeles? Doing this online has shortcomings especially for those, with degrees from more reputable institutions.

    (2) I would have to ask those viewing this board, how many use a significant percentage of what they learned in college day-to-day on the job (even if recently graduated)? My own self-directed continuous learning and OJT have moved me pretty far from the classes I took in college, and frankly, I have to think that if most people were to look at the cross-section of daily job duties and things they have to know, it would be a blend of many different degree elements. That difficulty in classification might make "patching" degrees more difficult or confine it to a narrow band of majors.
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      Fritzie Reisner 100+

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      Aug 10 2012: If I were to receive updates of content related to my undergraduate degree, it might be fun but not particularly useful in my life and not useful in my professional life.
      Were I to receive updates of content connected to my later education, it would be convenient, but part of the value of schooling is that I learned how to keep up myself. So I would not pay for the institution to update me.
      In terms of evidence that I keep up, it is much more important for that to show daily in my work than for me to have an official outside verification.
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    Kathryn Lattuca

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    Aug 8 2012: What is the socioeconomic impact of mandating these patches, for example, in job descriptions?
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      David Hamilton 50+

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      Aug 8 2012: In general I'm not a fan of mandates, I'm a fan of individuals choosing to have the best resume humanly possible, and letting that sort itself out.

      I would suggest that an employee who comes to you with a patched diploma, now has a similar training regime to their younger counterparts, and this could greatly increase intergenerational cooperation and productivity. Some job descriptions may want to say, electrical engineering degree patched to at least 5 years ago, especially if it becomes an easy and cheap program to access. I would also suggest that this can dramatically impact the economic productivity of the elderly, as their skills are often seen as obselete by society.

      For people in their 60's and 70's who exercise and stay, sharp, a patched diploma could prove competence and relevance to an employer in a way they never could before. "Oh, ya, I just tested on this stuff 2 years years ago... I'm not senile short stack".

      It would make it much easier for retired people to consider re entering the education system as teachers. They can re familiarize themselves with things they missed, and just retest their skills so they feel confident teaching.

      Finally, it would just grease the wheels of industry in general... I hear a lot of people in these responses talking about how "the universities are always far behind", they either don't live in America, or don't know what the hell they're talking about. UCLA, and Berkeley, both have better research on solar concentration than any of our private sector corporations. Having their employees patch into that information, is just lubricant for innovation.
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