- Yuri Gomez
- Trujillo
- Peru
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What is the source of all this trouble?
The trouble of our days is an increasing imbalance of not only man and nature, but among peoples, as well as within people, themselves.
What is the source of all this trouble?
David Bohm said: The source is basically in thought. Many people would think that such a statement is crazy, because thought is the one thing we have with which to solve our problems. That's part of our tradition. Yet it looks as if the thing we use to solve our problems with is the source of our problems.
Topics:
consciousness human thought
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Ed Schulte 50+
douglas macrae smith
The conflict comes from the automatic, unconscious crystallisation of that thought.
Thoughts themselves can be wonderful movements of intelligence - they appear and dissapear like subatomic particles out of the void. in such they are the movement of intelligence.
It is the clutcing on to those thoughts as truth, further building up our self image or world view; and the ensuing valorisation of these beliefs (that we have spent years moulding and perfecting) together with the understandable unwillingness to let go despite the problems they may cause - that leads to conflict, depression, and other unhealthy behaviour.
Ed Schulte 50+
..there is MIND ..
and the is that which is a sub creation ....call it mind ( with a small "m") or "Ego/ Egoic mind which is an elemental / emanation out for MIND .
Ego / Egoic mind is dualistic in nature ..meaning it can create an elemental out from itself and parallel to itself making it a very cleaver self preservation "team."system...This can be observed by the Higher Self ( MIND ) anytime the Ego is challenged ....its dual/or/counterpart will "enter through the back door" , so to speak, pretending to support the attempt to "correct " ego behavior ...but ...if observed impartially ....it will be seen that it will, in fact, attempt to go about building an even stronger Ego.
This is demonstrated on a daily bases now in Media/ Politics / Business / Religions and “so-called” Entertainment – celebrities ( especially ones defending “scientology”)
natasha nikulina 50+
"The excessive increase of anything causes a reaction in the opposite direction."
Maybe only madness can bring the sanity back. I think/hope, it is exactly what is happening :)
Yuri Gomez
Yes, thought itself is not the problem.
What you mention requires disidentification from the "self" created by thought.
douglas macrae smith
natasha nikulina 50+
Is there a conscious thought ? Does consciousness think ?
William Humphrey
natasha nikulina 50+
Ed Schulte 50+
Trusting this finds you and yours well.
I am off to a looong weekend ...saw your other post but will reply here ....Well firstly "everything" is consciousness including that which is a Product/ emanation out of Source. And yes, due to the extraordinary fact called "HUman Beings" (Beings Conscious of BEing conscious) Conscious has the potential of "thinking" both in states of Full / Self Consciousness and Non-aware /or/ Unconsciousness.
Rumi's "Think of who created thought" was his way of "tripping" up the latter ....because Self Consciousness cannot be experienced/felt as lang as the "Observer" is residing in the day-deam /Un/ state 99 % of Humanity "normally" dwells in ...the next line of his poem is "Why do you stay in prison when the doors are so wide open?" :-) :-) have to go but here is a cut quote of some material that really address the "why" of the UN-conscious state ..
"'Self' is a very different thing from the consciousness which the self is expressing.
A lot of people mixing these things up, they mix up the consciousness with the Self. But Self consciousness is simply how we, as the self, used the mind in creating emotions, desires and thoughts. Which of course then lead to words and actions. That is self-consciousness, how we are using the mind. So we have to use the mind, as light, in the proper way. So we will know what our Soul-Self is, something beyond its reflection as a body, an emotion and a personality. Then we can understand where real Self is and what God is. And we achieve the aim we are looking for, which is, true Self realization."
natasha nikulina 50+
Whatever you are talking about, one thing is clear enough : language serves much better to shape an un conscious thought than conscious one:)
Poetry aside, it's a noble attempt to use language to tell something that is unlanguagable by definition.
Consciousness is self evident, but if somebody asks me what is it, i don't know what it is. Everybody agrees though that there are different levels of consciousness: sunflower is conscious where the sun is, but doesn't have means to tell. or be conscious of being conscious of it. We can tell a lot of clever things about the sun, feeling separated from it, hence being not conscious of it.
Something like that ...." the doors are so wide open" when there are no doors .
For me it sounds true enough,( true enough is the truest truth i can possibly get via words ) i can stand under it :)
My question is : why/when did it happen to HUman Beings ? Why/ when we start to take rational mind too seriously, as if it is a light itself, not a 'device' for reflecting the light ? Was it a choice ? Maybe it was ; what if it was a conscious choice of Consciousness itself ? Maybe it is not a detour from the " true Self realization ", but exploring different means to achieve it.
' Mind- becomes- humble- through- arrogance' kind of a project . Consciousness / I / God whatever the name is playing with matter in mind's hands, but neither of those have ever left the domain of Consciousness. The old Russian saying tells " all roads lead to God " We are doomed to succeed, whatever the way.
Maybe we are still governed by the judgemental sentiment : something has got damn wrong and that's why we are in trouble now, by our mind's definition of trouble. But maybe it is not quite true ?
What do you think ?
Ed Schulte 50+
doing a sneakybeaky here and usin an older reply button that is still open. TED doen't like continuing conversations but innovation takes care of that. ,Now hearing song from some long ago .with the line "yeah teacher leave the kids alone."
Re: why/when did it happen to HUman Beings ? Was it a choice ? ...choice may not be the right word ...Privilege accessible through the uniqueness of taking on HUman form would be more like it. The "realization" of just that is ..yes as you say ..enough to keep the use of this gift called "Mind" in "Humble mode. Not We have never left the domain...but the Russian proverb is on half finished ..the missing is ..God/ therefore our Soul-Self is in everyone of those roads. It can't ever be otherwise.
Re: "Maybe we are still governed by the judgemental sentiment : something has got damn wrong and that's why we are in trouble now"
....we have passed through a needed stage in HUman consciousness ...those that have tried to control the teaching of those exposing Truth will have to face up to the next line in Rumi's poem which goes "move outside the tangle of fear thinking, live in silence."
natasha nikulina 50+
Everything wants to articulate itself, everything wants to communicate itself and be perceived. We humans want it and "as above so below " we are the consciousness itself that seeks to be known. Otherwise how the very idea of Truth could possibly enter our mind ?
Who introduced that notion of 'eternal return ' ?
We were in the state "we have no questions we have no answers", then the serpent came into the Garden and seduced the Yin part of our Human psyche to explore/create the matter through mind, ( Serpent is the mind itself ), a being ( Adam ) became aware that it is aware, that state gave a birth to ego and so it began... and now maybe we are close to be aware of awareness itself "move outside the tangle of fear thinking, live in silence." It means seized to be " I am that " , it's a way back to the Garden.
It's just a musing on the theme ' when/how did it happen ?" :)
That Russian proverb is complete ( if anything can ever be complete ), it means exactly what you said. I've translated it word by word "Все дороги ведут к Богу" , it's clear and simple , no ambiguity here, but still there is a loss in translation, and it's always the case. How Rumi sounds in Persian ? I wish i knew :)
Thanks for responding , Ed !
Have a nice day !
Ed Schulte 50+
iow "an elementai"
and you are soooo right the English language is por and weak when it is used in such discussions.
The ending line in the Rumi poem is “Flow down and down in ever expanding spheres of Being”…how does that sound in Persian? It does much more then mean words, it “feels” the motion of expanding…..the “Spheres” are the levels of consciousness that make up the Human Being and the outer one is “source” …the Spheres are “called” the “7 Heavens” in many traditions …even the Christian has a ref to it…but it has been successfully eradicated in most of their ,…but it is the 3rd and 4th Heaven which is the key to understanding the “where does thought go wrong” The 3rd/4th is the Psychical body and its etheric double. It is the home of “emotions”…and “there is never a thought without some emotion and never an emotion with out some thought.” Then in is the 2nd key is the “where does it go so wrong…..and the 3rd and final key …is back to Rumi’s poem and his pointer to “fear” ….iow always vulnerable to “fear” because of becoming lost in “fear” !!!! The solution is …as Tolle says …”very vey simple” ..just …”Know who you are, beyond name and form.”…iow “Know the …down and down in ever expanding Spheres of Being.” That YOU are.
natasha nikulina 50+
Or is it ? We use ' ...... ' not meaning 'etc' , but something that is the most important.
Ed,thanks for the Rumi ' extension ' , that's what i meant : to have the context for ...
Bohm says " whatever the SELF is , it is the essence of the essence and it is unknown but constantly revealing itself."
I think, in a way he managed to english Rumi :)
Sorry for the delay with my responses, i enjoy our conversation very much , but we have + 35/7 C in the shadow here, with tropical humidity, it's quite recent and needed to be adopted. As Brodsky put it "...in such a heat if i was to choose how to die i would prefer a cold blade ..." i prefer to live that's why all my free time i spend in the depth of the Black sea , developing fins and scale, i haven't succeeded yet :)