This conversation is closed.

What is the source of all this trouble?

The trouble of our days is an increasing imbalance of not only man and nature, but among peoples, as well as within people, themselves.

What is the source of all this trouble?
David Bohm said: The source is basically in thought. Many people would think that such a statement is crazy, because thought is the one thing we have with which to solve our problems. That's part of our tradition. Yet it looks as if the thing we use to solve our problems with is the source of our problems.

  • thumb
    Aug 2 2012: Ignorance, selfishness, greed and injustice.
    • Comment deleted

  • thumb
    Aug 5 2012: Maybe they have forgotten their connection to the earth,the smell of it,the colour green that our forebears knew so well,having a garden doesn't really touch on it as it is a domain of control,i suppose modern man has forgotten the significance of their Pito and where it has gone,their afterbirth that connected them to their mothers and sustained them into life,where once people use to find a place they felt drawn to and bury it to return it back to the land and lock that child to life and the land of their people.

    People lost in the wind.
  • thumb
    Aug 4 2012: Hello Yuri....nice to see you again:>)

    Good observation Yuri...we use the thought process to solve many of our challenges, and we also use the thought process to complicate issues, thereby preventing resolution!

    "One of the great difficulties in the new order of thought is that we are likely to indulge in too much theory and too little practice".
    (Ernest Holmes - THE SCIENCE OF MIND)

    We often regurgitate information, theorize, and talk about a lot of things to the point where it becomes problematic, rather then benificial. You mention "imbalance" in your introduction, and I totally agree that we (humans) are imbalanced at times, in many ways.

    One thing we see here on TED is that many people are searching for contentment, happiness, passion, compassion, empathy, etc., and they are often searching for these qualities by way of material goods, special methods, practices, etc. These are things we can recognize in our "self", if we look for them....can we not?

    Perhaps we feel imbalanced because we are looking in all the wrong places to discover balance in ourselves as individuals? I believe that is where balance needs to start....in ourselves as individuals. So, the source of the challenge, is also the source of the resolution. Just as the thought process is part of the challenge AND the solution. Our feelings and emotions are a source as well, because they often contain both the challenge AND the solution.

    Feelings are influenced by thoughts, so there we are back to the thought process again. Perhaps the source is the cycle...the life cycle....life energy. How we use the life energy is also part of the challenge AND the solution. I believe we, as individuals, are part of the challenge AND the solution. If I'm not part of the solution, I'm part of the problem. Knowing our "self" helps us determine in each and every moment, if we are contributing to the problem, or the solution.
    • Aug 5 2012: Colleen, it's nice to see you again too.

      Your description makes sense to me, especially in the perception of cycles and energy life. but I also think that D. Bohm went one step further on the description of the source of the trouble that we are experiencing now.
      At the end the key seems to be the same old way, know yourself and watch your thoughts :)
      • thumb
        Aug 5 2012: AHHHHH Yes Yuri......"Know thyself". It is by knowing oneself, that we can know others...it is both the challenge and solution:>)
  • Comment deleted

    • thumb
      Aug 2 2012: Quite so - thought itself is not the problem
      The conflict comes from the automatic, unconscious crystallisation of that thought.
      Thoughts themselves can be wonderful movements of intelligence - they appear and dissapear like subatomic particles out of the void. in such they are the movement of intelligence.
      It is the clutcing on to those thoughts as truth, further building up our self image or world view; and the ensuing valorisation of these beliefs (that we have spent years moulding and perfecting) together with the understandable unwillingness to let go despite the problems they may cause - that leads to conflict, depression, and other unhealthy behaviour.
      • Comment deleted

        • Aug 3 2012: In a way the worse the better, maybe, the society we live in globally is a a fire in a mad house.
          "The excessive increase of anything causes a reaction in the opposite direction."
          Maybe only madness can bring the sanity back. I think/hope, it is exactly what is happening :)
      • Aug 2 2012: Douglas,
        Yes, thought itself is not the problem.
        What you mention requires disidentification from the "self" created by thought.
    • Aug 3 2012: Hi, Ed !
      Is there a conscious thought ? Does consciousness think ?
      • Aug 3 2012: according to the book Quantum Philosophy it does.
      • Comment deleted

        • Aug 5 2012: I love your comments, Ed, i do !
          Whatever you are talking about, one thing is clear enough : language serves much better to shape an un conscious thought than conscious one:)
          Poetry aside, it's a noble attempt to use language to tell something that is unlanguagable by definition.
          Consciousness is self evident, but if somebody asks me what is it, i don't know what it is. Everybody agrees though that there are different levels of consciousness: sunflower is conscious where the sun is, but doesn't have means to tell. or be conscious of being conscious of it. We can tell a lot of clever things about the sun, feeling separated from it, hence being not conscious of it.
          Something like that ...." the doors are so wide open" when there are no doors .
          For me it sounds true enough,( true enough is the truest truth i can possibly get via words ) i can stand under it :)
          My question is : why/when did it happen to HUman Beings ? Why/ when we start to take rational mind too seriously, as if it is a light itself, not a 'device' for reflecting the light ? Was it a choice ? Maybe it was ; what if it was a conscious choice of Consciousness itself ? Maybe it is not a detour from the " true Self realization ", but exploring different means to achieve it.
          ' Mind- becomes- humble- through- arrogance' kind of a project . Consciousness / I / God whatever the name is playing with matter in mind's hands, but neither of those have ever left the domain of Consciousness. The old Russian saying tells " all roads lead to God " We are doomed to succeed, whatever the way.
          Maybe we are still governed by the judgemental sentiment : something has got damn wrong and that's why we are in trouble now, by our mind's definition of trouble. But maybe it is not quite true ?
          What do you think ?
      • Comment deleted

        • Aug 8 2012: Choice seems to be always not the right word, yet there is nothing but choices "Privilege accessible through the uniqueness of taking on HUman" means that WE ARE THE CHOICE . What is privilege if not to be chosen ? Though i agree, it has little to do with ' choice' :)
          Everything wants to articulate itself, everything wants to communicate itself and be perceived. We humans want it and "as above so below " we are the consciousness itself that seeks to be known. Otherwise how the very idea of Truth could possibly enter our mind ?
          Who introduced that notion of 'eternal return ' ?
          We were in the state "we have no questions we have no answers", then the serpent came into the Garden and seduced the Yin part of our Human psyche to explore/create the matter through mind, ( Serpent is the mind itself ), a being ( Adam ) became aware that it is aware, that state gave a birth to ego and so it began... and now maybe we are close to be aware of awareness itself "move outside the tangle of fear thinking, live in silence." It means seized to be " I am that " , it's a way back to the Garden.
          It's just a musing on the theme ' when/how did it happen ?" :)

          That Russian proverb is complete ( if anything can ever be complete ), it means exactly what you said. I've translated it word by word "Все дороги ведут к Богу" , it's clear and simple , no ambiguity here, but still there is a loss in translation, and it's always the case. How Rumi sounds in Persian ? I wish i knew :)
          Thanks for responding , Ed !
          Have a nice day !
      • Comment deleted

        • Aug 9 2012: Language in general is a tricky thing , really. It reflects the best the human condition ; we are cursed and blessed by the possibility/ impossibility to convey the most important experiences. Translation from one language to another adds to the confusion. But there is a hope ... the closer you are to the context with your own experience the better chance you get to catch the vibe and ' see ' what you are spoken to and see the mind of the speaker and be that person for that moment for the purpose... to recreate the experience, to live it again; it makes it bigger and a kind of ' understandable '. So, the ' word ' of a genius can do the trick. We also can be understood sometimes . Ideally silence should be understood but it is not an on line option :)
          Or is it ? We use ' ...... ' not meaning 'etc' , but something that is the most important.
          Ed,thanks for the Rumi ' extension ' , that's what i meant : to have the context for ...

          Bohm says " whatever the SELF is , it is the essence of the essence and it is unknown but constantly revealing itself."
          I think, in a way he managed to english Rumi :)

          Sorry for the delay with my responses, i enjoy our conversation very much , but we have + 35/7 C in the shadow here, with tropical humidity, it's quite recent and needed to be adopted. As Brodsky put it "...in such a heat if i was to choose how to die i would prefer a cold blade ..." i prefer to live that's why all my free time i spend in the depth of the Black sea , developing fins and scale, i haven't succeeded yet :)
  • thumb
    Aug 2 2012: I'd have to agree with David Bohm
    What is thought?
    Thought is a habitual reaction based on conditioning (eg logic, morals, culture), and is itself further conditioning - unfortunately both the past and current conditioning of one's world view are most certainly at odds with reality and the world view of others.So what we end up with is a conflict between reality and our beliefs/knowledge; but also a conflict between my beliefs and yours.
  • thumb
    Aug 2 2012: I've been saying this in a lot of my posts. I believe all our social problems is caused by some misunderstanding in some form. The best way to "cure" misunderstandings is education. Education should be defined as ANY type of learning, not just school. And probably the best teacher to teach education is curiosity.
    • Aug 2 2012: I agree, the source of almost all problems is ignorance.
      • thumb
        Aug 2 2012: Man, if there were less ignorant people out there, think of how much easier a politician's job would be. I hate the whole "politically correct" way of saying things, but I really can't blame them when they're trying to get really ignorant people to vote for them -_-
    • Aug 3 2012: Agree James,
      maybe what's more important is knowing ourselves.
  • Aug 2 2012: Seems to me that this can be compared to a factory where the workers do not know or have lost interest in the 'end product'. Without knowing our influence and contribution toward this end product, other things take their place.
    The money we make, the respect shown us in our cubicle, delegation to others.

    The 'end product' of this life, our life, is to become a loving and not-self-focused person. Because the better the character (end product) we attain, the happier our eternity will be.

    Thought by itself does nothing. We can think about things all day long and nothing will change. Only what is done, and why it is done, can change this world and eliminate the trouble.

    Humans have a will and understanding and these are the cause and base of our thoughts. If either is off, our thoughts will be off balance and useless.

    Humanity has lost touch with what spirit, and thus thought is. Now we do not look beyond the body any more, and see the body as the cause of it all. We are no more the body we control, than we are the car we drive.

    The sooner we realize, and accept the fact, that we live in a spiritual world, with a spiritual cause and a spiritual effect (end product) within us, the sooner there will be less trouble.

    The best and easiest place to start and learn new relationship habits is in traffic. Think about it. :)
    • Aug 2 2012: Adriaan,
      I think that by experiencing the nature of thought and realizing that it took over us, making us identify with forms as you mention above, an experience will be revealed which can be described as spiritual.
    • Comment deleted

      • Aug 3 2012: Thanks so much Don. As you may know, whatever I write is based on what Swedenborg wrote.
        His small work on Life is all about what life is (or should be).

        For what it's worth, anyone may see some wisdom in this, it is all about the 'end product'.
        http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/documents/DocLife.pdf

        Thanks again and have a great (long in Canada) weekend.
  • thumb
    Aug 4 2012: Mr. Bohm also said:QUOTE- " Indeed, the attempt to live according to the notion that the fragments are really separate is, in essence, what has led to the growing series of extremely urgent crises that is confronting us today."
    He was on the right track, the fragmentation of our socio-political world is not many separate problems, but one problem. All this trouble is caused by a lack of conformity to God's will, it has a name . . . SIN.
  • Aug 4 2012: The world is smaller now then ever before, everyone is connected and everyone is blending. People are afraid of change, which is completely natural and people hate what they fear which is also completely natural. The conflicts of today are an inevitable evil and won't completely end ever, but they will die down over time as people become more tolerant. We just have to hope that we don't destroy each other before we reach that point.
  • Aug 3 2012: The left hemisphere of the brain :) Unbalanced mind.

    David Bohm ( a great man !) was absolutely right , but i am interested why it happened that way ?
    Was is a choice or destiny or what ?
  • Aug 3 2012: Lies....to self and others is the source of "all this trouble." The way out is TRUTH to self and others. It is that simple.
  • Comment deleted

    • Aug 3 2012: Don,
      : ) Well maybe the source is the devil's will but the source could also be an unconscious thought that is running by itself, which makes us to forget the spiritual essence.
      • Comment deleted

        • Aug 3 2012: Dear Don,
          I put on a smiley face because is not an argument is just a set of words(an opinion). I don't pretend to answer the question. I'd just like to know your opinions about Bohm's answer.
          I dont feel hurt.

          Best regards.
  • Aug 2 2012: The Mother of Everything named the Will is the Expansive Metaphysical Force which opens space with her force of contraction called Gravity. (She balances the Spirit which is the power called Consciousness and it is expansive and is noticed as space expanding.)

    Since the beginning she, the Will, has been opening space for self denial. She has reversed that recently and is now opening space in Self Acceptance and for Self Acceptance. Those who do not accept all of their self are having that shoved their faces as what appear to be negative experiences when they are positive wake up calls.

    Those who insist on denial will leave the planet.
  • thumb
    Aug 2 2012: Guns,germs and steel.

    I like this guy,i figured someone might have thrown it up on the tube and Waa-Laa! got a link for you to look at,i think he's onto something as my people were colonized just like the america's.

    You might not agree with it,i know a lot don't.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyRa5P6xVo8
  • thumb
    Aug 1 2012: I have given some thought to that question, and I believe part of the answer lies in the lack of new frontiers to explore, which would otherwise provide us with focus, and a commonality of purpose. Without a common focus, we begin to splinter off into smaller groups, and accentuate our differences from on another.

    I believe that within the next thirty years or so, space colonization may rekindle that common purpose - or perhaps the Internet might unite us, as it seems to be doing in the middle east.
    • Aug 2 2012: Lawren,
      "without a common focus, we begin to splinter off into smaller groups". In Bohm's work, what you mention above is the nature of thought, wich is fragmentation.
      • Aug 3 2012: Yuri !
        Can ' fragments' or data, when there are a great great number of those recreate a notion
        of the Whole ? I mean, can a lot of ' knowing about' become a new knowing ?

        Thanks !
        • Aug 3 2012: Hi Natasha,
          Well, according to what I experienced, the accumulation of knowledge doesnt create a new kind. But if we are sensitive enough, insights can happen that gives us new understanding. but even with a new understanding, thought can not grasp Wholeness. On Bohm's words "thought is limited because thought is to select limited abstractions from the world" but "Nothing that is limited can exist without the unlimited".
          "Wholeness needs to be sensed as an insight into the unlimited, beyond what thought can grasp".

          Maybe that's why spiritual teachings tell us that in order to grasp wholeness we have to get out of all thought.
      • Aug 3 2012: Agreed !

        But...

        Bohm was not contemplating on the nature of reality, watching the motion of the sand dunes... but he came up with the same revelation about the priority of a whole over the part. " Nothing has independent existences apart from anything else " Q. M revelations resonate with mystic insights " the seer is the seen " and sacred teachings all over the genre. Maybe knowledge has the 'point of transition', where the quantity( when it is enough ) irredeemably changes the quality of the substance ?
        Don't take me wrong, i am not debating with you, i try to understand :)

        Thanks for responding !
        • Aug 3 2012: "Maybe knowledge has the 'point of transition', where the quantity( when it is enough ) irredeemably changes the quality of the substance ?"
          Well, The proccess of transition of our days can be described that way, but as far as I know, great masters of the past, didn't need the factual accumulation of knowledge to gain wholeness insights. So seems to be another factor that can make revelation happen.

          According to his own description, Bohm was contemplating on the nature of reality, but up to a quantum level :D
      • Aug 3 2012: Ok, maybe science can bring back the sacred reverence to life and embrace the idea of ungaspability of life for the mind. It's Paradigm shift , maybe that is what science was aiming to.

        "....to end where we started and look at the place for the first time "

        Was it a purpose or just natural Ying / Yang dance ? :)
      • Aug 3 2012: Yes, as well as Einstein was contemplating on the beam of light :) Without insights or non algorithmic way of knowing there would be no scientific breakthroughs.
        Still, thinking means something, not only it is what we do , it means something for the universe we inhabit. Shamans sang, to bring the world into existence, we think to do the job.:)