- Yuri Gomez
- Trujillo
- Peru
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What is the source of all this trouble?
The trouble of our days is an increasing imbalance of not only man and nature, but among peoples, as well as within people, themselves.
What is the source of all this trouble?
David Bohm said: The source is basically in thought. Many people would think that such a statement is crazy, because thought is the one thing we have with which to solve our problems. That's part of our tradition. Yet it looks as if the thing we use to solve our problems with is the source of our problems.
Topics:
consciousness human thought
Ken brown 30+
People lost in the wind.
Colleen Steen 500+
Good observation Yuri...we use the thought process to solve many of our challenges, and we also use the thought process to complicate issues, thereby preventing resolution!
"One of the great difficulties in the new order of thought is that we are likely to indulge in too much theory and too little practice".
(Ernest Holmes - THE SCIENCE OF MIND)
We often regurgitate information, theorize, and talk about a lot of things to the point where it becomes problematic, rather then benificial. You mention "imbalance" in your introduction, and I totally agree that we (humans) are imbalanced at times, in many ways.
One thing we see here on TED is that many people are searching for contentment, happiness, passion, compassion, empathy, etc., and they are often searching for these qualities by way of material goods, special methods, practices, etc. These are things we can recognize in our "self", if we look for them....can we not?
Perhaps we feel imbalanced because we are looking in all the wrong places to discover balance in ourselves as individuals? I believe that is where balance needs to start....in ourselves as individuals. So, the source of the challenge, is also the source of the resolution. Just as the thought process is part of the challenge AND the solution. Our feelings and emotions are a source as well, because they often contain both the challenge AND the solution.
Feelings are influenced by thoughts, so there we are back to the thought process again. Perhaps the source is the cycle...the life cycle....life energy. How we use the life energy is also part of the challenge AND the solution. I believe we, as individuals, are part of the challenge AND the solution. If I'm not part of the solution, I'm part of the problem. Knowing our "self" helps us determine in each and every moment, if we are contributing to the problem, or the solution.
Yuri Gomez
Your description makes sense to me, especially in the perception of cycles and energy life. but I also think that D. Bohm went one step further on the description of the source of the trouble that we are experiencing now.
At the end the key seems to be the same old way, know yourself and watch your thoughts :)
Colleen Steen 500+
edward long 100+
He was on the right track, the fragmentation of our socio-political world is not many separate problems, but one problem. All this trouble is caused by a lack of conformity to God's will, it has a name . . . SIN.
Silas Birdsell
natasha nikulina 50+
David Bohm ( a great man !) was absolutely right , but i am interested why it happened that way ?
Was is a choice or destiny or what ?
Rhona Pavis 50+
Don Wesley 50+
David Bohm, has made a good contribution and he is not alone.
Buckle up your seat belt and turn up your courage for a five second leap over to another
beautiful point of view expressed in 1965 over 12,000 radio stations.
http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2012/07/if-i-were-devil-remember-this-was-first.html
Don [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
Yuri Gomez
: ) Well maybe the source is the devil's will but the source could also be an unconscious thought that is running by itself, which makes us to forget the spiritual essence.
Don Wesley 50+
1 - If this is your argument, then I accept it as it is.
However, to be honest with you, I would say it is not an argument, nor even an answer, to your own question, which I quote is “What is the source of all this trouble?”
2 - Please don’t feel insulted; just accept my reply as what you might get as a challenge in a classroom debate at college. I would say you have just tossed in an idea; one sentence long.
3 - As a question on an exam only your teacher would give a private feedback. Out of ten what do you think your mark would be.
4 – About David Bohm, he is only one out of very many authors, from many disciplines to read.
5 - I encourage to keep on looking and studying with a passion; you alone may create a truly new and great answer, which would then be heavily debated, over the centuries.
I offer my reply with a compassionate heart and without any intention to hurt you.
Don [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
Yuri Gomez
I put on a smiley face because is not an argument is just a set of words(an opinion). I don't pretend to answer the question. I'd just like to know your opinions about Bohm's answer.
I dont feel hurt.
Best regards.
John Allyn
Since the beginning she, the Will, has been opening space for self denial. She has reversed that recently and is now opening space in Self Acceptance and for Self Acceptance. Those who do not accept all of their self are having that shoved their faces as what appear to be negative experiences when they are positive wake up calls.
Those who insist on denial will leave the planet.
Feyisayo Anjorin 50+
Don Wesley 50+
Yours is the "right" and very short answer to this debate.
Don [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
Feyisayo Anjorin 50+
Don Wesley 50+
You encourage me to become a little more like him; which I know we are all striving to be.
Don [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
Ed Schulte 50+
douglas macrae smith
The conflict comes from the automatic, unconscious crystallisation of that thought.
Thoughts themselves can be wonderful movements of intelligence - they appear and dissapear like subatomic particles out of the void. in such they are the movement of intelligence.
It is the clutcing on to those thoughts as truth, further building up our self image or world view; and the ensuing valorisation of these beliefs (that we have spent years moulding and perfecting) together with the understandable unwillingness to let go despite the problems they may cause - that leads to conflict, depression, and other unhealthy behaviour.
Ed Schulte 50+
..there is MIND ..
and the is that which is a sub creation ....call it mind ( with a small "m") or "Ego/ Egoic mind which is an elemental / emanation out for MIND .
Ego / Egoic mind is dualistic in nature ..meaning it can create an elemental out from itself and parallel to itself making it a very cleaver self preservation "team."system...This can be observed by the Higher Self ( MIND ) anytime the Ego is challenged ....its dual/or/counterpart will "enter through the back door" , so to speak, pretending to support the attempt to "correct " ego behavior ...but ...if observed impartially ....it will be seen that it will, in fact, attempt to go about building an even stronger Ego.
This is demonstrated on a daily bases now in Media/ Politics / Business / Religions and “so-called” Entertainment – celebrities ( especially ones defending “scientology”)
natasha nikulina 50+
"The excessive increase of anything causes a reaction in the opposite direction."
Maybe only madness can bring the sanity back. I think/hope, it is exactly what is happening :)
Yuri Gomez
Yes, thought itself is not the problem.
What you mention requires disidentification from the "self" created by thought.
douglas macrae smith
natasha nikulina 50+
Is there a conscious thought ? Does consciousness think ?
William Humphrey
natasha nikulina 50+
Ed Schulte 50+
Trusting this finds you and yours well.
I am off to a looong weekend ...saw your other post but will reply here ....Well firstly "everything" is consciousness including that which is a Product/ emanation out of Source. And yes, due to the extraordinary fact called "HUman Beings" (Beings Conscious of BEing conscious) Conscious has the potential of "thinking" both in states of Full / Self Consciousness and Non-aware /or/ Unconsciousness.
Rumi's "Think of who created thought" was his way of "tripping" up the latter ....because Self Consciousness cannot be experienced/felt as lang as the "Observer" is residing in the day-deam /Un/ state 99 % of Humanity "normally" dwells in ...the next line of his poem is "Why do you stay in prison when the doors are so wide open?" :-) :-) have to go but here is a cut quote of some material that really address the "why" of the UN-conscious state ..
"'Self' is a very different thing from the consciousness which the self is expressing.
A lot of people mixing these things up, they mix up the consciousness with the Self. But Self consciousness is simply how we, as the self, used the mind in creating emotions, desires and thoughts. Which of course then lead to words and actions. That is self-consciousness, how we are using the mind. So we have to use the mind, as light, in the proper way. So we will know what our Soul-Self is, something beyond its reflection as a body, an emotion and a personality. Then we can understand where real Self is and what God is. And we achieve the aim we are looking for, which is, true Self realization."
natasha nikulina 50+
Whatever you are talking about, one thing is clear enough : language serves much better to shape an un conscious thought than conscious one:)
Poetry aside, it's a noble attempt to use language to tell something that is unlanguagable by definition.
Consciousness is self evident, but if somebody asks me what is it, i don't know what it is. Everybody agrees though that there are different levels of consciousness: sunflower is conscious where the sun is, but doesn't have means to tell. or be conscious of being conscious of it. We can tell a lot of clever things about the sun, feeling separated from it, hence being not conscious of it.
Something like that ...." the doors are so wide open" when there are no doors .
For me it sounds true enough,( true enough is the truest truth i can possibly get via words ) i can stand under it :)
My question is : why/when did it happen to HUman Beings ? Why/ when we start to take rational mind too seriously, as if it is a light itself, not a 'device' for reflecting the light ? Was it a choice ? Maybe it was ; what if it was a conscious choice of Consciousness itself ? Maybe it is not a detour from the " true Self realization ", but exploring different means to achieve it.
' Mind- becomes- humble- through- arrogance' kind of a project . Consciousness / I / God whatever the name is playing with matter in mind's hands, but neither of those have ever left the domain of Consciousness. The old Russian saying tells " all roads lead to God " We are doomed to succeed, whatever the way.
Maybe we are still governed by the judgemental sentiment : something has got damn wrong and that's why we are in trouble now, by our mind's definition of trouble. But maybe it is not quite true ?
What do you think ?
Ed Schulte 50+
doing a sneakybeaky here and usin an older reply button that is still open. TED doen't like continuing conversations but innovation takes care of that. ,Now hearing song from some long ago .with the line "yeah teacher leave the kids alone."
Re: why/when did it happen to HUman Beings ? Was it a choice ? ...choice may not be the right word ...Privilege accessible through the uniqueness of taking on HUman form would be more like it. The "realization" of just that is ..yes as you say ..enough to keep the use of this gift called "Mind" in "Humble mode. Not We have never left the domain...but the Russian proverb is on half finished ..the missing is ..God/ therefore our Soul-Self is in everyone of those roads. It can't ever be otherwise.
Re: "Maybe we are still governed by the judgemental sentiment : something has got damn wrong and that's why we are in trouble now"
....we have passed through a needed stage in HUman consciousness ...those that have tried to control the teaching of those exposing Truth will have to face up to the next line in Rumi's poem which goes "move outside the tangle of fear thinking, live in silence."
natasha nikulina 50+
Everything wants to articulate itself, everything wants to communicate itself and be perceived. We humans want it and "as above so below " we are the consciousness itself that seeks to be known. Otherwise how the very idea of Truth could possibly enter our mind ?
Who introduced that notion of 'eternal return ' ?
We were in the state "we have no questions we have no answers", then the serpent came into the Garden and seduced the Yin part of our Human psyche to explore/create the matter through mind, ( Serpent is the mind itself ), a being ( Adam ) became aware that it is aware, that state gave a birth to ego and so it began... and now maybe we are close to be aware of awareness itself "move outside the tangle of fear thinking, live in silence." It means seized to be " I am that " , it's a way back to the Garden.
It's just a musing on the theme ' when/how did it happen ?" :)
That Russian proverb is complete ( if anything can ever be complete ), it means exactly what you said. I've translated it word by word "Все дороги ведут к Богу" , it's clear and simple , no ambiguity here, but still there is a loss in translation, and it's always the case. How Rumi sounds in Persian ? I wish i knew :)
Thanks for responding , Ed !
Have a nice day !
Ed Schulte 50+
iow "an elementai"
and you are soooo right the English language is por and weak when it is used in such discussions.
The ending line in the Rumi poem is “Flow down and down in ever expanding spheres of Being”…how does that sound in Persian? It does much more then mean words, it “feels” the motion of expanding…..the “Spheres” are the levels of consciousness that make up the Human Being and the outer one is “source” …the Spheres are “called” the “7 Heavens” in many traditions …even the Christian has a ref to it…but it has been successfully eradicated in most of their ,…but it is the 3rd and 4th Heaven which is the key to understanding the “where does thought go wrong” The 3rd/4th is the Psychical body and its etheric double. It is the home of “emotions”…and “there is never a thought without some emotion and never an emotion with out some thought.” Then in is the 2nd key is the “where does it go so wrong…..and the 3rd and final key …is back to Rumi’s poem and his pointer to “fear” ….iow always vulnerable to “fear” because of becoming lost in “fear” !!!! The solution is …as Tolle says …”very vey simple” ..just …”Know who you are, beyond name and form.”…iow “Know the …down and down in ever expanding Spheres of Being.” That YOU are.
natasha nikulina 50+
Or is it ? We use ' ...... ' not meaning 'etc' , but something that is the most important.
Ed,thanks for the Rumi ' extension ' , that's what i meant : to have the context for ...
Bohm says " whatever the SELF is , it is the essence of the essence and it is unknown but constantly revealing itself."
I think, in a way he managed to english Rumi :)
Sorry for the delay with my responses, i enjoy our conversation very much , but we have + 35/7 C in the shadow here, with tropical humidity, it's quite recent and needed to be adopted. As Brodsky put it "...in such a heat if i was to choose how to die i would prefer a cold blade ..." i prefer to live that's why all my free time i spend in the depth of the Black sea , developing fins and scale, i haven't succeeded yet :)
douglas macrae smith
What is thought?
Thought is a habitual reaction based on conditioning (eg logic, morals, culture), and is itself further conditioning - unfortunately both the past and current conditioning of one's world view are most certainly at odds with reality and the world view of others.So what we end up with is a conflict between reality and our beliefs/knowledge; but also a conflict between my beliefs and yours.
Ken brown 30+
I like this guy,i figured someone might have thrown it up on the tube and Waa-Laa! got a link for you to look at,i think he's onto something as my people were colonized just like the america's.
You might not agree with it,i know a lot don't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyRa5P6xVo8
Lawren Jones 10+
http://www.amazon.com/Guns-Germs-Steel-Fates-Societies/dp/0910315248/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1343886169&sr=8-6&keywords=jared+diamond+guns+germs+and+steel
James Zhang 30+
William Humphrey
James Zhang 30+
Yuri Gomez
maybe what's more important is knowing ourselves.
James Zhang 30+
William Humphrey
Adriaan Braam 20+
The money we make, the respect shown us in our cubicle, delegation to others.
The 'end product' of this life, our life, is to become a loving and not-self-focused person. Because the better the character (end product) we attain, the happier our eternity will be.
Thought by itself does nothing. We can think about things all day long and nothing will change. Only what is done, and why it is done, can change this world and eliminate the trouble.
Humans have a will and understanding and these are the cause and base of our thoughts. If either is off, our thoughts will be off balance and useless.
Humanity has lost touch with what spirit, and thus thought is. Now we do not look beyond the body any more, and see the body as the cause of it all. We are no more the body we control, than we are the car we drive.
The sooner we realize, and accept the fact, that we live in a spiritual world, with a spiritual cause and a spiritual effect (end product) within us, the sooner there will be less trouble.
The best and easiest place to start and learn new relationship habits is in traffic. Think about it. :)
Yuri Gomez
I think that by experiencing the nature of thought and realizing that it took over us, making us identify with forms as you mention above, an experience will be revealed which can be described as spiritual.
Don Wesley 50+
That certainly pleases me.
Don [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
Adriaan Braam 20+
His small work on Life is all about what life is (or should be).
For what it's worth, anyone may see some wisdom in this, it is all about the 'end product'.
http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/documents/DocLife.pdf
Thanks again and have a great (long in Canada) weekend.
Lawren Jones 10+
I believe that within the next thirty years or so, space colonization may rekindle that common purpose - or perhaps the Internet might unite us, as it seems to be doing in the middle east.
Yuri Gomez
"without a common focus, we begin to splinter off into smaller groups". In Bohm's work, what you mention above is the nature of thought, wich is fragmentation.
natasha nikulina 50+
Can ' fragments' or data, when there are a great great number of those recreate a notion
of the Whole ? I mean, can a lot of ' knowing about' become a new knowing ?
Thanks !
Yuri Gomez
Well, according to what I experienced, the accumulation of knowledge doesnt create a new kind. But if we are sensitive enough, insights can happen that gives us new understanding. but even with a new understanding, thought can not grasp Wholeness. On Bohm's words "thought is limited because thought is to select limited abstractions from the world" but "Nothing that is limited can exist without the unlimited".
"Wholeness needs to be sensed as an insight into the unlimited, beyond what thought can grasp".
Maybe that's why spiritual teachings tell us that in order to grasp wholeness we have to get out of all thought.
natasha nikulina 50+
But...
Bohm was not contemplating on the nature of reality, watching the motion of the sand dunes... but he came up with the same revelation about the priority of a whole over the part. " Nothing has independent existences apart from anything else " Q. M revelations resonate with mystic insights " the seer is the seen " and sacred teachings all over the genre. Maybe knowledge has the 'point of transition', where the quantity( when it is enough ) irredeemably changes the quality of the substance ?
Don't take me wrong, i am not debating with you, i try to understand :)
Thanks for responding !
Yuri Gomez
Well, The proccess of transition of our days can be described that way, but as far as I know, great masters of the past, didn't need the factual accumulation of knowledge to gain wholeness insights. So seems to be another factor that can make revelation happen.
According to his own description, Bohm was contemplating on the nature of reality, but up to a quantum level :D
natasha nikulina 50+
"....to end where we started and look at the place for the first time "
Was it a purpose or just natural Ying / Yang dance ? :)
natasha nikulina 50+
Still, thinking means something, not only it is what we do , it means something for the universe we inhabit. Shamans sang, to bring the world into existence, we think to do the job.:)
Yuri Gomez