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What if, in a fine morning, you learn, "There's nothing called God"!
Gods exist from 'god knows how many millenniums'. And they come to mankind as virtual beings time to time: promising heaven and hell and with sets of instructions to be followed - differing according to the religions they propose. We all, except for a few, are so dependent on them for our everyday life - trying to find a purpose of our existence, some meaning of what we call life. History is full of wars to establish 'the true god'. And, as of today, there's no sign that this will come to an end any time soon. So, we are born with a specific religion as our birth right and we fight till death trying to do --- what....
What if, in a fine morning, you come to learn that there is actually no entity such as 'god'. That, the concept is no more necessary to live a nice life on this earth...
What might be the first thing in your mind...
gale kooser 20+
Painting a picture? Well I am an artist, which should ans. a lot of questions. LOL
Timing was off when I got the Mohawk- my head got too cold for winter. LOL
I wear a black fedora with a brightly colored parrot feather on it too.
I don't like to conform unless it's for the greater good. And there has been very little of that around here.
I am also a wee bit out spoken. Another LOL for the record.
Faisal Habib
I don't know what u got as responses from your mirrors, but i have already discussed 'mirror' already in this debate earlier, and i'll ask u to kindly review that. my mirror responses differently to me, depending in what situation/environment i find myself in -- 'reality' again, gale.
you prefer changing your hair color, and i prefer it to be as it is, still, i and you do share something common, willingness to be 'ourselves' and intention to bringing in differences.
you'd prefer pizza for breakfast, but my 'reality' says, some people will even try finding out some 'grass' to eat. 'reality' again, gale.
So, as long as we can't realize 'reality', that it differs -- from people to people, culture to culture, country to country and then find out a definition that applies to 'all' in general: neither can we detect 'greater good' nor can we 'conform' :-(
gale kooser 20+
Taking what "I" know of human nature: Without someone or thing to follow or blame stuff on most humans will be lost & those who take advantage will exploit this. It would be a real mess for sure.
Shane is right! I'll add an old adage: Hell is here on earth (so why not try & make it into a heaven?)
Colleen Steen 500+
I'm sure you do understand and accept folks....me too:>) I'm sure you know that backstabbing and ridicule are all some people know. Heck, when I started commenting on TED 3 years ago, I was criticized and ridiculed for being too "sweet" and "surgery"! People did not believe that I was/am simply being "ME"...LOL:>)
I even got e-mails through the TED system telling me that I wasn't "real"...I was fake...some folks called me "passive aggressive", abusive!!! Yeah....the same people were calling me "too sugery" and "abusive" at the same time!!! That only told me that people are confused about themselves, so they are confused about others as well. I am persistant:>)
Our communities sound similar in some ways....I'm in a small northern town, mostly populated by people whose families have lived here for a couple hundred years. I am personally responsible for breaking up conflict of interest issues with people serving on our local governing boards, and my life was threatened in the process....yeah.....I get the picture! All those who had blatant conflicts of interest who were serving on the governing boards, are no longer serving themselves on those boards....they are gone....I am persistant:>)
I totally agree....let's make earth into a heaven....let us continue to be persistant my friend:>)
Faisal Habib
i'll place an 'irrelevant' comment here: from my point of view from Bangladesh, u r already in a heaven on earth: at least my from the experience / opinion i gather from my friends (from bd of course, but living and working in US for a long time). So, just guess: out of that secured dome u live in, most people of the world (excluding the developed world) experiencing 'hell on earth'. as an example, most of the general people of bd cant even manage one meal a day, usually. u can also think about Ethiopian people. and there r so many. So, I'll humbly ask both of you to come out of that dome, see the world for yourself, and then decide about being persistent. somehow, i am sure that, you both will realize that it is not only US that deserves to be a heaven on earth. compared to the total population on earth, u r only a few in numbers, and the 'heaven' u live in, is actually responsible for 'hell on earth' for the rest of the world. never mind pls if that remark hurts your pride. but i'm talking about reality -- 'stark reality' and nothing else....
gale kooser 20+
Colleen Steen 500+
Gale and I do seem to share many of the same ideas, and I agree with you Faisal, that we have an advantage because of where we live.
Your comment is not "irrelevant", in my perception Faisal. I understand how the US can be considered a heavan on earth, when looked at from other parts of our world.
I have been "out of the dome" many times Faisal, and have witnessed many people in remote parts of our world with no clean drinking water, not enough food or shelter. Yes, I am still going to be persistant Faisal. The last time I checked, I have no influence with world leaders. I DO however, have influence in my little part of the world, so this is where I can make a difference.
I believe our world could be a heaven on earth, and it takes each and every one of us to create that. Your remark does not hurt me Faisal, because to a certain extent, it is true. The USA consumes WAY MORE than our share of resources. It may not make any difference to you Faisal, but I personally, live very frugally, conservatively, and mindfully aware. Thankfully, my parents taught me to restore, renovate, reuse, and recycle 60+ years ago... before it was a popular or necessary concept. I live my life that way, and I also teach many others to do the same. I personally do not feel responsible for the "hell on earth" that some people are living, and I also accept responsibility as a member of the USA community. I am not proud of the fact that we, as a whole, use so much of the worlds resources.
I am also talking about reality Faisal......nothing else. You don't need to blame one or two people, as you have attempted to do here, because of the actions of millions. I understand your anger, and do not feel personally blamed:>)
gale kooser 20+
One person can't do that, but all working together can.
Colleen Steen 500+
With my effort to clean up the conflict of interest issue for example, I was called all kinds of things and as I said, my life was threatened and my property damaged for quite awhile. Some folks quietly said......"nice job and we don't want to be "out there" doing that". It took about 10 years for many people in the community to realize what was going on. Or maybe they were all in denial because they were benefiting from the conflict of interests!?!?!?
You are painting a very interesting picture of yourself my friend.....fushia mohawk huh? Sounds intriguing! Mine is only plain gray......OH......white/silver.....sound more interesting?
I also rode a mt. bike for awhile, but traded it in for a road bike when I started riding with a group....I was working way too hard with the mt. bike!
So, if one fine morning, we wake up and find out there is no god, none of this will change for us huh? I can't help but ask the question another commenter asked early in the conversation.....what's for breakfast? LOL:>)
Faisal Habib
Gale: I prefer to be myself too, and i'm going to be persistent about that too. The differences u, ms colleen and i probably can make, by being persistent to be ourselves, on our own -- may be negligible, even undetectable; can become a 'DIFFERENCE' world wide; it's a matter of someone taking the lead to assemble those with intentions to bring in a difference. And, gale, about names -- anyone can decide anything about you, what's the point wasting time noticing those, so many things to do, and life is short. answering space is limiting me here, 'reality' -- what else!
Faisal Habib
because, you brought the subject of chasing perfection: consciousness is not defined yet properly, so, it's better to exclude it from here. but awareness is a matter of realization of the environment one finds him/her in...
so, let's ask a 'true' scientist: is he/she aware of what he/she is doing! aware enough about the possible result of the pursuit! or, he/she plans to leave a legacy of another nobel prize! a question remains, in that case, should we leave science and waste our time for something else? again, it's a matter of intention of the 'specific' person involved.
as i see it, science should progress / or should be allowed to progress. a scientific experimentation / evaluation should be the base of the structure we plan to build. in that case, we'll always have an option to go back and check when we find something is going wrong.
and, 'perfection' is a result of pursuit, add to it the role of coincidences/uncertainties: just because of the fact that the universe we live in allows humans that much ability only and we can never exclude the role of uncertainties/coincidences from our 'reality'.
Shane Schuller
Shane Schuller
Your question on can we move the moon - Archimedes said, give me a place to stand and I'll move the Earth. So he was referring leverage. Do you have a place where I could stand to move that moon?
Faisal Habib
ok, i'll try to pose another point here, recently nanotechnology has become a very important field of research. but to what measure of 'nano' humans r able to investigate! doesn't matter, cause, we r using it anyway, and still pursuing to find the limit. so, if i can give you a place to move the moon along with the leverage u need,would u really want/need to move it!
chasing perfection is somewhat like an chasing an asymptotic curve. the universe we live in, may allow perfections sometimes, depending on coincidences/uncertainties play their role in right time. humans alone probably lack that ability. else, you would've found abundance of 'perfect' examples all around.
all that matters is how you want to spend your time, chasing money, power, perfection, limit.. the list goes on...
Colleen Steen 500+
I suggest that finding "self" does not depend on the environment or other elements. We simply need to look at our "self", as Shane suggests...look in the mirror...be willing to look at our "self" from a different perspective. And be willing to "stand" in a way to give ourselves leverage (strength, determination, resolve?) to "move" whatever we are trying to "move" in ourselves?
We can sincerely, honestly evaluate ourselves and make changes in ourselves regardless of the external environment. There is no limit to how much or how little we can explore ourselves and change...in my humble perception:>)
To stay with your topic..."What if, in a fine morning, you learn, "There's nothing called God"!
Some people may not be concerned or impacted at all, some folks may evaluate and adjust, and some people may feel totally lost if s/he has been dependant on a god for happiness, contentment, comfort, or life purpose.
Faisal Habib
I'll be humble also, to disagree about 'limit' -- little may be possible, but as a human being, we do have limitations to 'how much' we are able to explore ourselves and change accordingly (requires more explanation, i feel, but, space is short). to be brief, it may take a life time for some one only to find the highest limit, and even die before finding it: making changes will remain unfinished in that case. So, a simultaneous process of exploring and making changes accordingly may produce the best result. which, again turns my attention to having a mirror in mind, i'm not sure though you'll agree -- doesn't matter much, does it?
your last para, may not be comprehensive (nothing personal, ma'am), but, enough to present a rough picture of that possible/impossible morning.
thanks anyway.
Shane Schuller
To clear the consultation part - I meant it stink because we DON'T consult, we don't agree if we tried. This particularly pointed at religions who are up in arms with each other. Examples - Burma crisis, Israel and Palestine and more.
To clear APATHY - it is the submission of ones Will that causes societies the loss they experiencing. When 'smarter' ones note the - laid back attitude - they endevour to lead people for their own gain and corruption becomes prevalent . They know that very few, if any, would stand up for justice and march for freedom, therefore they take society for granted. This is what apathy is - it is an unresponsive people that I'm referring to. If people were responsive we wouldn't have such great degeneracy. I'm not saying poverty is the poor man's fault but I'm saying they have the POWER TO CHANGE their situation - if they begin to respond.
The question is - where does apathy reside, and where/what brought it into existence?
We are so comfortable allowing podium teachers to decide our fate, and when we hear a few in the crowd complaining, we shy away from standing for the same ideals, especially if they are intended to help us. We are too QUIET when we should be LOUD and to damn loud when we should quiet - listen.
Bottomline is - the seekers for unity in diversity have a very difficult task on their hands, because of - PRIDE amongst those they hope to unite.
Shane Schuller
The greatest discovery in nature is discovering our small part in this infinite, yet recognize the big role we play in it and how our decision could affect or comply. This is where we begin to loose ego. We are just a drop in the ocean comparatively speaking. Science confirms this on so many levels. We can find it through a telescope, a microscope and even within our own minds and we continue to glean that no side is too big or too small and neither can we confirm that we are in the middle. It's a collective, and absolutum that makes it all possible.
gale kooser 20+
There is so much we can learn from nature but most have turned away, only to realized too late that we have made a big Oops.
Do other animals believe in a God figure? No idea! But my first guess would be - No!
I feel that if all peoples woke up & learned there wasn't a "God", there would be chaos. Folks would then have to come to terms that they had no one, or thing, to blame or thank for what goes on in their lives. Far more people would end their existence then not.
Believe me when I say, it's not easy looking in a mirror for the first time & blaming self for what has happened in your life.
Shane Schuller
It reminds me of that song of Michael Jackson - Man in the Mirror
"I'm Starting With The Man In The Mirror
I'm Asking Him To Change His Ways
And No Message Could Have Been Any Clearer
If You Wanna Make The World A Better Place"
:-)
Faisal Habib
>> peaceful in its own right:: is it supposed to be so, but again, 'reality' differs and that makes differences.
next para: do we really play big role! can we alter moons orbit as we want? may be that should be enough to shred 'ego'. yes we r just a drop in an ocean, and science is right about that. >> no side is too big or too small and neither can we confirm that we are in the middle:: i'm not sure about the 'side's u r referring to, so, any comment about being in the 'middle' may prove me / my logic wrong. your last sentence may be about your own perception, but, it does have logic in it.
gale:: shredding ego is no easy thing to do, so, u r not a failure still. animals can't possibly 'conjure' a concept of god because of their biological limits.
in that possible/impossible morning 'chaos' will only start... where it will lead us to, time can answer only. as i have already commented in this discussion, a mirror in one's mind won't need a physical one. well, i agree, it may not be easy the first time, for all, but many people do get born with 'gifts', don't they!
Shane again:: i'd like to ask MJ what message he really tried to covey and to whom! it's not enough for MJ only to covey they message to him only, cause there r 7 billion people in this world and one will need most of them together with him "If You Wanna Make The World A Better Place", and i'm sure that conveying such messages to the required amount of people is not yet possible, considering, the present world we live in. but, anyway, the message he conveyed to him should not be avoided by a concerned person. the message is 'right' in its own right.
gale kooser 20+
When something goes wrong in my life-I look in the mirror & point my finger at me. Same goes when things go right. Do I believe something(s) great created the whole universe & beyond? Yes! But no idea what or whom.
My knowledge only goes so far, but I do try to use what I have with wisdom (it works once in awhile).
Is there more after I kick the old bucket? My belief says I go to a higher plain- I hope so.
I was born into the Methodist faith but after many years of searching became Buddhist.
There are times when I want to tear up my human card & go live with the other animals in the woods because of what humans do to others in the name of religion.
I will not live to see the many great changes that are coming but can only hope more compassion is on the world plate.
Going to add the word "greed" here along with beggers.
Faisal Habib
a mirror in your mind will always get you the right picture on the spot. you don't have to worry about looking back and waste time.
I don't find any necessity of an almighty for the creation we are in. as you turned to Buddhist from Methodist, and you still have the feeling of tearing up the human card, impossible anyway, it's better to go back to the necessity of religions in human progression. i hope i could pose my point correctly.
we have a common point, we both feel that we have limited knowledge. wisdom is quality that only above average human can develop. because, u r wise only when other say/find you to act wisely.
about living to see changes, i sometime wish that i was born after at least 100 yrs from now. life is so short and usually great changes take so long a time to flourish, so a birth after 100 yrs from now would certainly allowed me to read about those changes in history books and think forward. i wish to imagine, what changes will be found in history books 1000 yrs from now, but, i am an average human only with limited knowledge - stark reality.
more compassion -- we can certainly hope, because, hopes give people will to fight to continue to live. but human nature, as we see, do have the power to destroy all hopes. So, time will tell the rest... we r playing our roles as we see fit for us, time will decide along with human collective intelligence, who'll succeed and who'll fail...
i hope u didn't throw those 2 cents to water, but if u find it to be so, i am truly sorry.
gale kooser 20+
Being Buddhist, I have learned to show & feel more compassion for all living things. I have always felt compassion for wildlife, now I am "trying " to do same for humans. It can be hard at times, I will admit, mainly due in part as to the way humans not only treat each other, but the total disregard for other living things.
But back to my 2 cents: If I threw them in water, it would make ripples, which would spread from shore to shore. And maybe, just maybe, make a difference.
By the way: I am a female.
Faisal Habib
doing something for an animal is somewhat easy, but doing something for a human is very difficult most of the times, because of 'human nature'. (that includes "mainly due in part as to the way humans not only treat each other, but the total disregard for other living things" along with others.)
well, ma'am, that ripple reached me, u rest assured.
I am a male, remarked in response to your last comment, cause, i just considered u to be a 'person' in general.
Colleen Steen 500+
Your opinions are both worth a LOT, and I believe the ripples you create do indeed make a difference in our world:>)
I agree that it is more enjoyable to love who and what appeares to be lovable, and it may be a challenge sometimes to love those who appear to NOT be lovable. How do we encourage and teach to show compassion to "all living things", if we do not walk our talk?
I find it helpful to seperate the person from the behavior. My mom always taught me to love the person, hate the behavior. Underneath behaviors that may not be acceptable or useful in our world, there is a person who is very much like us. A person who maybe would like to love and be loved and doesn't know how. A person who experiences many of the same thoughts, feelings and emotions as we do. A person with whom we share this earth. If we do not reach out to that person, how is s/he ever going to know the difference between behaviors that are not acceptable or useful to our global society, and those that are?
One reason I do not believe our world would be in chaos if we discovered there is no god, is I think/feel it may cause people to recognize each other, rather than depend on their very own god and religious dogma for guidence and protection.
Too many times, in our world, chaos and destruction has been done in the name of a god. Too many times, we (humans) seperate ourselves in the name of a god. I find it continually interesting that religious enthusiasts/extremists/fundamentalists say we are all one, and their god is loving, just before they kill people and destroy our earth in the name of their god.
As Shane insightfully said in another comment....how can we look forward to a heavenly experience in the next event, if we cannot create that here and now?
Kevin Karam
When I said Catholicism came first, I meant as opposed to Protestantism. I correct myself, Historically, other religions came first the origins of which we may never know (what of Neanderthals or our direct ancestors in their nomadic/"caveman" age) ; however, there is an interesting progression leading into Jesus Christ: I allude specifically to Socrates, without him and Aristotle, some of the Philosophies/teachings of Jesus would never have caught on with the Gentiles. It is an interesting set-up.
Now here comes my cornerstone, my reason I believe in God. Without this simple fact, I would become atheist.
You speak of religion as a whole and many gods. I want to address what they all have in common (except for one, I know you saw that coming, hehe), namely each god has a name. I don't know many, but even reckoning all the way to the Mesopotamians, their god's had names. One common belief that to a certain extent remains today is that when you know the name of something or someone, you can call upon it to perform favors or bend it to your will. This was a strong belief in Ancient Egypt.
Moses was raised as an Egyptian and would have held the same belief. So when he was met with the burning bush, quite frankly he had no interest in listening to it, that is to return to Egypt. He tried all that he could to evade the demands of this phenomenon. But ultimately the fire called God won. Why? The last question Moses asks of the immolation is "Whom shall I say sent me?" This was a trick. Moses believed, if he knew the name of the entity before him, he could control it. (Continued...)
Faisal Habib
u r welcome to continue.....
Shane Schuller
Seriously I feel it's time people realized that ONE entity simply cannot be responsible for an infinitely well orchestrated universe. It's absolutely impossible that an all powerful, almighty, all knowing exists within a SINGLE entity's 'celestial' brain. By assuming that it implies perfection beyond perfect. If creation were the project of a creator (singular) then according to this 'logic' all creation should be perfect without behavioral issues. Is it not religion that teaches we were created in the likeness of God/Allah?
Why could'nt the 'moral' data just be downloaded into the hearts of humanity then?
Well it's not that simple because it's not that SIMPLE. Instead - Its a complicated network of the 'collective' participation.
Monotheistic theory is - Their is no gods/deities but God. How does one define the paradox and the god appellation? The theory suggests we should support one and leave out the hierarchical concept. And it implies that God is a title which probably means creator. But what if the theory is - Their is no god except Creation. This suggests no appellations, no hierarchies but instead implies all individuals and life forms collectively make up creation. Thus saying we have a responsibility towards nature and each other and so forth because we all in this together - no one above another - the result, no religious wars andi religious skeptics.
As current logic suggests, based on the god concept, it would be that god gets the fame as well as the blame, right? We can't assume he only gets the fame while religions tell us we get the blame, because we can argue we did not ask to be created therefore why the 'hell' punish us.
Humanity should do what they are capable of doing - self determination and self responsibility WITHOUT being coerced by some 'higher power'
Their is no god(s) but Creation - the total sum, the absolutum
Faisal Habib
Next para:: u r absolutely right in your reasoning. and none can possibly answer the last question.
ok, 'collective participation': it can be an an ans to your last question, but an almighty could possibly make that happen too, at least, the as term 'almighty' may suggest, literally. so, there's no almighty out there really.
i won't make comment on monotheistic theory cause u answered it already. but the theory u r suggesting, may not be comprehensive, but, close: because creation is not about individuals and life only, it may even contain 'multiverses' (as physics suggests in some theories) in it. and the result of your suggested theory can prove to be true, i'd like to add here, that it certainly has a very good probability of becoming a reality, with some exceptions included in it, naturally.
right again: we didn't asked to be created. but, even if we've asked to get created, who would ask for a life of a beggar!! that life is hell on earth anyway, isn't it?
i agree, absolutely.
all i'm concerned with is that, it is a creation, and for me, no 'god' is necessary for that.
absolutum is latin, as i just learned from dictionary -- thanks for that.
Shane Schuller
No disrespect to any believers of religions, but I have to point out that regions have turned mankind into beggars, so to speak and if we scrutinize it we could assimilate it to the hell scenario. The term 'religous skeptics' only applies to religous people and not atheist or agnostics. Im assuming you Muslim, so would define it with the Surah Kaffirun which says - you worship that which you want and I worship that which I want, to you your belief and to me mine...or something on that grounds. What it's really defining is the religous skeptics, bar none.
Is it wise that people, who subscribe to a 'godly' God, see him/her as One, yet don't subscribe to each other's wisdom, considering many claim all came from God? I thing with much cogitation we will learn its far from sage to have religous skeptiscm. Religions may have helped once but now they hurt us. We are divided because of religious skeptiscm and it continues to evolve into more divisions. This is not natural as in harmonious. As we consciously evolve we discover the ills in our paradigm and then to realize the difficulty in changing what we once subscribed to. It means we are growing, evolving individually.
Most regions teach of hereafter, so I have to ask - what about here and now? How are we to achieve 'heaven' there when we fail to create a a peaceful paradigm here and now? It's about here and now and we don't have tape capacity to be certain it will exist beyond here. I'm not saying life ends here.
As for multiverses - there are an infinite amount, beyond comprehension and may not even be part of this collective we exist in. Therefore our social actions may not affect those. The problem is not out there, but instead down here. The collective I speak of is us, this humanity consciousness, and not beyond our solar system or universe or spiritual planes. Our focus should be us....for now. We can deal with the next part when we arrive there with new challenges.
Colleen Steen 500+
This is true in many respects because some religious beliefs tell us we are supposed to suffer on this earth to have a better spot in heaven. God fearing enthusiasts are often "begging" for forgiveness for their actions, which can be resolved very easily simply with confession. I believe an enthusiastic belief in a god often absolves people from accountability/responsibility...or so they think.
You have effectively touched on the idea of being "all one", which some religious beliefs advocate. As a person born into a catholic environment, they tried to convince me that we are "all one", EXCEPT for those "other" people who were NOT catholic....they were going to hell!!! Didn't make sense to me even as a little child. How can it make sense to ANYONE...only if they are embracing/accepting dogma without thinking or feeling for themselves.
I agree with you that as we consciously evolve, we discover the ills in our paradigm, and I also agree that it is difficult to change. As thinking, feeling, evolving humans, however, I believe the change is in process.
I totally agree with you...."what about here and now"? Good question...."how do we achieve heaven, when we fail to create a peaceful paradigm here and now"? God fearing folks may tell you that we are "supposed" to suffer and struggle (beg) here on earth to have a better spot in the arms of the creator in "his" heaven in the afterlife.
I do not believe "life" ends here. I had an NDE/OBE which gave me information. What I experienced, however, is nothing like what is taught with religious dogma. I agree that there are multiverses....way beyond what we can imagine as humans.
Agree...WE are the "collective" in human form.....Our focus should and could be US.....for now. I LOVE it..."we can deal with the next part when we arrive there with new challenges!
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Faisal Habib
well, i'll be differing about atheists and agnostics: atheists are confirmed, and agnostics are 'sort' of confused. but both can be excluded from the term 'religious skeptics', as u described.
sorry, i don't even remember that sura, cause its been so long i'm an atheist, forgetting those r natural. but, the meaning inside, as u described, may define that too, provided, you got the total meaning of the sura within that unfinished line. and of course, context matters. I don't think religions turned humans to beggars, cause beggars can be of different forms and from different levels of society. as an example, I'm from Bangladesh, and the image of Bangladesh to the whole world is synonymous to 'beggars', in most cases. i don't think the religious people of bd want to be treated as beggars, but that's a 'reality' anyway. and you'll find lots of people in bd with so much money, that, with honest intentions, could make a difference. (it's really a too complex matter to describe within such a short space). 'reality' is the same again, Bangladesh, as a whole, are bunch of beggars to the developed/rich world.
religions helped, only those, who found themselves in places to manipulate it; and it still does help those. religions evolved in a fashion to get more diverse with time, inherent in nature, inherited from their origins. so, natural, but not harmonious. harmony won't allow so many wars/conflicts in history. 'some' people evolve and find 'ills', not all; 'some' even avoid that process for the sake of their personal interests. shortage of space wont allow me to finish here, sorry....
Shane Schuller
Humanity fails to recognize that when organized institutions administer their moral codes they actually don't think for themselves anymore. It's sad to witness the intolerances acted out by religious people against those who 'supposedly' don't fit within the codes of conduct. What conduct and who decides these things?
We as a society should collectively consult for the betterment of all without having to hurt anyone. Can we do this? thus far, No. Because we lack awareness. We don't prudentially discern before we threaten a people WE THINK are tainting our pride. Frankly we stink at consultation, and all we ready to is act like war mongerers. This is the reality of a perfect hell, and we alone created this paradigm.
Speaking of BD, look at our world, we have 6,8 odd billion people and 4,5 odd people face dire poverty. Why? Can we only blame our governing bodies? No because we so caught up in apathy that we don't know when to clamor for the betterment of all. Here's the real question, who brought mankind to the apathetic state it's in?
Reference to religious skeptiscm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_skepticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skepticism#Religious_skepticism
The surah Kafirun - means unbeliever and therefor it describes religious skeptics and does not speak of atheist or agnostics, as you can read in the verses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Kafirun
Faisal Habib
next para: the conducts r usually derived from the 'specific' religion's guidance/instructions and decision makers come out from the groups with advantage of manipulating it as they see fit.
next para:: we may 'stink' at 'consultation' at this moment (referring to your argument), but that does not mean a 'consultation' can only produce 'stink'. yes, we created this paradigm, and since 'we' created it, we can also modify it.
Bd is a totally different matter unless u r in it physically and experience its ways. it's not apathy that's applicable for bd, it's something else, as an example, corruption added with so many others.
considering the whole world (4.5 billion facing dire poverty), 'selfishness' is the root cause. add to it: greed, power etc. -- mankind is apathetic, no wonder.
thanks for providing the references: but i don't find any interest to explore those, cause i think i've already done that. and i find no point to go back and find again that i have wasted my time for old things, when i can invest my time trying to find something new.
sorry, if that above para feels rude or otherwise.
Kevin Karam
Firstly, it is obvious your knowledge of the Bible is limited since no educated Theologian actually believes humanity started from two people. Recall after Cain killed Able he ran away from Adam and Eve to another CITY! We're the couple running out at night and building civilizations and generations of people at night? Nope, they were already there...
Creationism, if you'll notice comes mostly from extremists, not educated individuals. I implore you to speak with a Jesuit priest.
In general, you are correct, but not really. Historically, Christianity came first, but Catholcism only became a sect once Protestestants needed to differentiate themselves after the revolution of the 16th century.. Recall "catholos" means "universal" in ancient Greek. Nothing mor
Finally, the Bible is not like the Koran, (which I assume you might be more familiar with, please excuse me if I err), but God did not write it, He inspired it by allowing humans to experience His love and grace. Sadly, it can be subject to human influence.. Like, did you know the world ends twice in the Bible? (There's a reason for that...)
Finally, please pardon error, I'm typing on a smart-phone. Tedious at best.
Faisal Habib
yes, my knowledge is limited, not only about bible/christianity but i believe in all other sectors as well. cause 'Omniscience', as some one referred earlier in this debate, can be a manifestation of 'god' only, and i'm an average human.
>> Historically, Christianity came first:: u r wrong about that, judaism came first, if we limit ourselves in those three religions only. considering, 'religion' as a whole, none can possibly confirm which religion came first. so, its better be no more on religions, if that means to you that only judaism, cristianity and islam are only religions that r being practiced around the world.
u guessed right abt me, i have a muslim background, though i am an atheist now. so, koran, bible, gita or whatever is all the same for me, human inventions, as required.
so, lets get to a broader arena, 'religion' as a whole. how many 'god's did greeks have! lets also consider that some people considered sun as 'god', some considered others... does that make sense that 'religion' as practiced (beginning possibly with the evolution of human intelligence till today) can really prove 'which' religion is right! it will never resolve the issue. not until (referring to your quote about the ending of world) the world really ends by some means, and at that very moment, only one religion may prove to be right about it, which will be of no use anymore anyway, cause the world is destroyed already and there'll be none left to follow the religion that proved to be right till end.
well, back to your ref: if 'god' really inspired humans to write bible/koran/whatever, why did he keep changing them with time, inspiring different cultures to write different 'holy' books -- intentionally creating diversions! does that imply that he intended to keep busy humans fighting each other to a certain destruction! does that mean that 'god' by himself is 'benevolent'! i guess not. lot more can be discussed but TED space allows this much...
E G 10+
It is not the same thing to learn that there is no such thing as 'god' with the idea that without the concept of 'god' you can live a nice life on earth .
To learn that there is no such thing like God is impossible ; you can live without the concept of God a nice life , it depends on what you mean by nice ; to live without the concept of 'god' it's not the same thing with to live without God .
What's in your mind do not value too much when it comes about entities like God .... this is what creates wars : the idea that what is in our mind is really important , this is also the very idea on which rest the entire atheism .
Faisal Habib
Kevin Karam
Sadly, with our without God people are still people. With all our faults, ambitions and economical motivators, nothing will change. God has been maniuplated by charismatic people to move others to action. Whether to tithe or go to war, (it might begin to sound like "demcracy" in the US) it was not God who casued these things, it was man's manipulation of "what God wants for us" that causes us trouble. We are responsible for our societies suffering because it is us as a collective that turns a blind eye toward other's pain, not God.
Is God necessary to live a nice life on earth? That depends on what and who you think God is. I am Catholic and I believe God to be everything: He is all knowing, all powerful, and all good, I am even willing to throw out all knowing and all powerful, but all good is quintessential. Forget the qualification of "nice": LIFE, period would not be possible without God. Whether it is nice, good, bad, miserable is dependant on you and the society in which you live, how you respond to that society, and what you do to help that society become what you believe it should be.
Saying God is the root of pain is like a religious sinner saying "The devil made me do it". It is not a valid defence as you still have the will to act.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
All the atheists I know support freedom of religion. The non belief in gods does not automatically lead to suppressing religion, persecution, or mass murder.
I wonder if the same can be said for nearly 2000 years of antisemitism in the catholic church. I suggest most religious suppression has been by one religion or denomination on another.
I see nothing that points to the existence of any gods or goddesses, let alone one belief system being correct.
Too me religions and all the gods are human constructs. If I woke up one morning and all the religions had finally shrivelled up and died I guess there would be one less thing to divide us. But agree humans are humans and would still help and harm others.
If I step inside the bubble for a second, is your view that god is all good, just an assumption, a premise, or something supported by evidence or even the bible?
If you believe god is good by definition and that everything god does or said must be good even if it seems bad, well we have no basis for discussion on the point as this is a circular nonsense.
If you consider the god described in the bible I don't see how you can claim this imagined being is all good. This god threw a hissy fit when Adam ate from the tree and this original sin flows to all of us. This god is claimed to have committed global genicide in the flood, picked one tribe over all others and helped them destroy other tribes, requires animal or blood sacrifice, endorses slavery, sexism, and murder for homosexuality, adultery, and working on the sabbath, killed thousands with plagues, ordered millions killed, and will send you to eternal torture if you do not obey.christianity tries to dress this up with love, but it is not good. This god is worse than there worst human.
How do you rationalise that that catholic god is good?
Kevin Karam
Atheism, is already headed down the path of becoming its own religion. Please watch the Ted video Atheism 2.0.
http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/alain_de_botton_atheism_2_0.html
It's adopting religious practices and it's only a matter of time it before it begins it's own form of "conversion" because atheist believe the world will be better place if we all have the se ideology. And who object will be persecuted.. It a circle. All this has happened before and it will happen again (and in less time, I theorize).
My point is not so much about religion as much as it is about the development of ideologies. Atheism will eventually be guilty of the same atrocities of all major world religions. Why? Because nothing has changed in the development of the ideology. There will come a point that disention will be punishable by death.
I cannot explain to you why I believe God is good because your understanding of the Bible is already wrong. No educated Theologian believes humanity began from two people. I have many objections to
the statements you made in your last paragraph because some of your understanding is misguided and you obviously have not studied scripture. You cannot claim to have mastery over the subject inasmuch as I, an accountant, can opine on molecular biology.
Finally, it is not religion that divides us, it's politicians that feed off division to make a mint that exacerbate it. You'll find more religions in themselves are tolerant, it is leaders who thrive off conflict (like a good theatrical performance) that cause us to be enemies.
Faisal Habib
i'd like to add here that, science, till the present day, have enough physical evidences that human beings evolved with time, as an example, i can refer to neanderthals (u'll find other such examples in anthropology), which is enough to prove that there were no adam or eve from heaven to earth. else, all human fossils found till today, would have something common that certainly would have established by now that human race started from adam and eve.
in general u r a christian first, then a catholic, and u also have many other sects among christians, such as protestants and others. well, u sure have prove that jesus/god himself produced so many versions of bible (pls excuse my limited knowledge on Christianity). those versions of bible are nothing but creations/additions of certain individuals at suitable position to provide improvisations as they saw fit.
in ref to your last comment, an atheist will always find himself/herself responsible for own actions. so, devil/god actually live in human mind, and that's all. human mind makes a person do what he/she is doing. god/devil has no place in there. will to act, is also a result of the same evolution process that human went through physically.
Gabo Moreno 100+
Faisal Habib
most of the people of this world will find differences in that (probable / improbable) particular morning: so many, that ,as already discussed, all hell will break lose on plant earth. no one, i repeat, no one will be avoid the fall. would u like to see something like that?
no, u will react, cause simply the environment around you -- world full of 'beleivers' will make you act. cause its not an atheist world and that morning will probably the worst for of the believers. the whole world will simply 'stop' working. and that 'stop' will start something.... chaos, destruction etc. etc. etc. ........
Gabo Moreno 100+
If so, not for a second do I think that most people would be of the unreasonable religious mind that without gods everything is permissible (if this is what you mean by hell breaks lose). I think that there would be all kinds of reactions, that most would go within a few hours from panic to relief, often with a few other emotions in-between. That in the end, all would mostly go back to business as usual. That for most it would be, no gods, ok, what's for breakfast?
David Hamilton 50+
It's not a hard question to answer. We still don't know why exactly things exist, rather than not. As a human being, you get to decide, how you value things that exist. As something that exists, with no causal evidence that I necessarily should... I can't help, but feel lucky, and think that existence is a rare and wonderful thing.
Colleen Steen 500+
That feels like the underlying question. As a human being, how do we value the life experience? Do we value holding onto and focusing on a belief in a god, heaven, hell, afterlife, dogma, and controlling factors? Do we function as humans based on that belief? OR, do we treasure, and become fully engaged in being human?
Seems like an easy question for me too. I am fully present and engaged in the adventure of being human whether or not there is a god! What's for breakfast?
Vijay surana
On the onset, thank you for the advice, I'd think about it.
There's this interesting point in your response which makes me wonder - " by the term 'god' i mean an almighty who created this whole mess we r in." Now if your words are to be believed; this mess (as you chose to describe it) was created by someone, then the natural curiosity arises - Who created the creator ??
I presume, you'd ask me post a debate for this too!
Misled Are we, or simply Ignorant !
Faisal Habib
a simple concept of non-existence can resolve a lot of things, i'm not sure i could explain it in any better manner.
deciding to post anything is nothing uncommon, a debate is also about posing a concept to discuss about. u r free to post anything u like, cause i may not join / otherwise depending on many things. so, its up to u again.
we r both. leaders may take up the chance to mislead., and some people never learns... just doesn't lean; may be it works that way for the person.
about 'ignorance': someone commented (sorry no evidence in hand) that 'ignorance is bliss!'
Vijay surana
The question remains; Who created the mess and who created the creator of the mess?
Faisal Habib
you r going back to find someone, named, 'creator'. .....
Vijay surana
If "Godliness" means to be Humane! I guess, it shouldn't affect us one bit, whether he's out there or not!
After all we are Human, aren't we!
I never want to search the creator, My question was, when u say that an almighty created all this mess, then who created him, which means its meaning less to look out for the never ending chain.
I don't want him to be what I am. It shouldn't affect us one bit, whether he is out there or not.
Faisal Habib
godliness can just be an expression of the state of mind a human can have, and i believe it to be so. it may affect us depending on the person one encountering is in that mood or not.
my own search was over along time ago, cause my parents/teachers/others helped me grow up with that belief in my mind 'implanted'. so, i had to reason it out of my mind by myself as unnecessary.
i too need/want no god to be what i am. but it does matter to most of the people on earth, so, referring to the topic of the debate, it may affect us in that possible/impossible morning; and i think it will affect all of us very much just because of the fact that very few people r atheists.
E G 10+
"Now if your words are to be believed; this mess (as you chose to describe it) was created by someone, then the natural curiosity arises - Who created the creator ?? "
It is nothing natural in having that curiosity : if God created the world do not means He has to be created by somebody else too . Maybe He lives eternally , maybe He came from nothing , maybe none of these , maybe , maybe....... .
Shane Schuller
Vijay surana
If "Godliness" means to be Humane! I guess, it shouldn't affect us one bit, whether he's out there or not!
After all we are Human, aren't we!
Faisal Habib
'godliness' - humane or not, depends on the respective person.
and, i agree with u, we all r human.
Shane Schuller
I'm not saying they have the answer, I'm just stating they make more sense if we compare theories.
Faisal Habib
thanks
Shane Schuller
The winged angels could be early man's description of people who fly and the arriving on clouds could be that to. As well as buraq which describes a zeppelin of some sort.
To get an idea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_astronauts
David Hamilton 50+
I'm sorry, I couldn't resist. I can't believe no one said that yet.
Wade Crum
elizabeth muncey 10+
Jonathan Gronli
Faisal Habib
Gabo Moreno 100+
The second part is also false. Lots of imagined divinities allowed, and even indulged in, all kinds of things.
That a particular divinity would not allow escape from reality and claim clean conscience does not make divinities any more real.
Shane Schuller
Absolutely - a collective participation seems far more 'divine' (a better use for this word) than any other imagined "divine being" (the distorted use of this word)
E G 10+
Your logic is very faulty , it's not an wonder you seem to be an atheist !!!!
Why is your logic so ? because :
- you can't know if the existence of God change or not the morality ; maybe because of the existence of God we have now the morality we have , to say that "The inexistence of god would also not change morality" implies you know that the existence of God has no influence upon our morals , this is obviously not true . Even though you use the atheistic meaning of the word 'god' it's wrong to say that the existence of god had/has no influence upon our morals .
- our morals depend on cultures , that's right but it isn't an argument as you seem to want to be for your idea that "The inexistence of god would also not change morality" because gods are also part of the cultures .
Colleen Steen 500+
I totally agree that the inexistence of god would not change morality. We have proof, simply observing our world, that the belief in god has not encouraged or increased moral behavior. In fact, some behaviors under the guise of religion/god have caused a great deal of harm in our world.
I also agree with you that the biggest difference may be that people might become more accountable and responsible for their behaviors, rather than blaming it on a god, and/or depending on a god to bail them out (confession) of immoral, inappropriate behaviors.
Eduard (E G)
Jonathan's logic is not faulty. You simply do not agree....try saying it that way. We've had plenty of years...centuries.... to witness the fact that a belief in a god DOES NOT necessarily change morals, and many times encourages behaviors that are abusive and violate the rights of others.
E G 10+
Jonathan logic is faulty and yours is so too :
- if the belief in God encourages amoral behaviors (that's according to you) then wouldn't the inexistence of God make disappear this bad influence on people ? Then it changes the morality of the people .
Colleen Steen 500+
Your comments are based on your thoughts, feelings, ideas, beliefs and opinions. My comments are based on my thoughts, feelings, ideas, beliefs and opinions. Neither are "faulty". We simply have different thoughts, feelings, ideas, beliefs and opinions about this topic. I will not go around with you in circles, as I have told you before.
E G 10+
Shane Schuller
Also you put well the perspective regarding beggars.
Much love :-)
elizabeth muncey 10+
Faisal Habib
there are many religions other than judaism, christianity and islam interacting with each other. so those three r not the only factors need resolving for a harmonious world. rather, its a very narrow approach of looking into the problems associated with religions. you could be more clarifying about the word gift, but from the context of your posting 'the gift' may not be appreciated by all religions.
now, the matter is about women about whom i have very limited knowledge, so, i'll just skip this part of the discussion.
in my opinion, both men and women can work together and create a balanced world...
Stewart Gault 30+
They are my enemies, and their crimes can not be forgiven.
Faisal Habib
well man, crime is well defined but present day laws to deal with it arose from religions mostly and since crime will be there as long as humans are there, what do u think should / can / will be a suitable means to deal with it?
forgiveness is quality u will find mostly in people having superior types of mentality compared to even above average humans.... and, honestly, i consider myself as an average human. but, personally, i try to avoid enmity as much possible -- ironically, enmity may not consider to choose the same.
Stewart Gault 30+
So modern day we deal with crime and immorality on the basis that what is good in the world has a positive effect on the well being of others and bad has a negative effect. Then we judge severity by judging how negatively an action affect someone or more than one person's lives and create a punishment we deem to be acceptable and that justice is served.
And if we forgive too much or too easily you abandon your common sense
Colleen Steen 500+
Re: "latest update, stewart, miss colleen is also with us towards hell..."
Colleen Steen 500+
When I first saw your discussion, I thought....no.....no......no more discussions about god....they usually lead to testy arguments!!! LOL:>) Your discussion is not really about god, however, it is about us...you...me....whoever chooses to join the conversation......yes? "On a fine morning, YOU learn there's nothing called God"
So, in answer to your question, nothing would change about that day. I live life with integrity, compassion, empathy, respect, humor, joy and unconditional love, to the best of my ability in each and every moment. I do not need a higher power overseeing my actions/reactions throughout the life experience.
That being said, I had an NDE/OBE (near death experience) years ago, which provided me with information. I do not need other people to believe the information, nor do I try to convince anyone that my belief is truth. As I was in the spirit/energy form, outside the body, I did not meet a god, nor was I aware of any heaven or hell. So, at this point, with the information I have, I do not believe there is a god. However, I am not totally closed to the possibility either. Some folks say I'm "on the fence"..."unwilling to make a committment one way or the other"....etc. etc. That is THAT PERSON'S perception.
In my mind and heart, there could be a god "out there" somewhere, and I do not believe so at this time. On one level, I believe I already have evidence that there is no god, and I am also open to possibilities if I get new information. Neither possibility changes the way I live my life HERE and NOW.
Thanks for the very creative question, which if looked at carefully, askes us to question ourselves, rather than defend preconceived beliefs:>)
Faisal Habib
i feel something will change on that morning, because, we live in a world with a very few atheists. so, when believers find the morning, everything around u will change, and, consequently we will change too.
your nde/obe gave u the clue you needed. but not all of the people will get that chance - some clue for them is necessary to leave behind an idea they pursued all their life...
i'm sorry, i can't support u about being partially open about a possibility of a an existence: it may some day take you to a very confusing state of mind which may also ruin your personal idea about how to live a life on earth and...
>> Neither possibility changes the way I live my life HERE and NOW.
that stance totally negates my comment in the earlier para.
your thanks is accepted with the best gratitude. thank you too ma'am.
Colleen Steen 500+
I agree...a discussion about god is usually never-ending, which is why I like the way you framed your question. It is not as much about god, as how the belief/idea of god impacts people....well done:>)
I am not looking for your support for my beliefs Faisal. As I said in my previous comment, I do not need someone looking over me, to make my own decisions and choices regarding the way I navigate the life experience:>)
You say my beliefs may some day take me to a "very confusing state"? Are you now becoming the fortune teller, as you have judged others to be? LOL:>)
I really LIKE what I believe. I LOVE having an open mind and heart and being fully present HERE and NOW.
Faisal Habib
well, you r on your own and that give me more confidence about my own life and thoughts. i, too, don't need anyone for decisions about my life and its cliches.
no, ma'am, i'm not trying to be a fortune teller (thanks for the comment anyway. it will surely help me keep my interpretations justified about the opinions of others - one to one). all i'm trying to say is that if you look at a glass that's half full and half empty, and decide to check both the conditions practically, u may waste your time only. i tried that myself and at the end the result is zero, sorry, negative - i only wasted my time.
an open mind is what all of us should strive for. but 'openness' may bring in serious trouble if we are not careful enough. i.e. there's no need to be open to everything, it is not worth doing so (u may disagree, and i don't mind that).
Colleen Steen 500+
When there is a mention of god, some folks go into autopilot....do you know what I mean?
When we are clear and confident in ourselves, it gives others the confidence as well. Thanks for mentioning that Faisal. I don't need to convince YOU of anything, and you don't need to convince ME of anything. That allows us to have a conversation and connect with each other rather than seperate.....yes?
I simply reflected back to you regarding "fortune-teller". I agree with you, that it is not practical to accuse others of something we are doing ourselves:>)
I do not perceive looking at different sides (glass half full/glass half empty) as a waste of time, although I respect your perception. I LIKE looking at things from different perspectives...that's simply my own preference. If you have decided that it is a waste of time, that is your preference:>)
I have never found an open mind to bring "trouble". We have the ability as evolving humans to take in a LOT of information. We also have the ability to sift through information to decide how we act/react, make choices and decisions based on the information we take in. How can that be "trouble"? I don't understand.
Faisal Habib
yes ma'am.
(half/full glass) well ma'am, it's not about my preference, i was actually referring to my own life experiences. i also like different perceptions / perspectives as long as those remain interesting and meaningful. but, being a human only, i made mistakes - carelessly. and, u know something, i'm still a careless.
actually, while using the term 'open mind', i included the info processing mechanisms automatically into it. so, i said, not everything should be encountered with an open mind. does that make some sense...!!
Colleen Steen 500+
No, honestly, I do not understand how, why or when it would NOT be beneficial to have an open mind. Can you give me an example?
I might have to end soon....guests coming for dinner...I'll get back to you later:>)
Faisal Habib
so, if u like, we can further discuss 'open mind' that may produce a level and mutual platform to base discussions on.
of course we should not expect that we surly will be able to reach a common point though. but with every explanations possible, the concept of having an 'open mind' in a human should be respected without any reservation.
Colleen Steen 500+
To me, having an open mind simply means a willingness to explore all available information regarding any topic. I like looking at issues from many different perspectives, and I am not expecting always to reach a common point, although that is enjoyable when it happens, and I am open to some common ground on which to build a conversation:>)
Faisal Habib
so, i think, we already have at least one enjoyable common point: the 'willingness to explore'; it may be something like, someone knocking your door and you go and open the door to see "who!'. rest, depend on a lot of things, such as, mental makeup, attitude towards the unknown etc. etc.
anyway, we r in a conversation on a level ground already, (we have at least one common point). the 'imperfections' life poses on walking the level ground are somewhat like 'food for thoughts'. and as the conversation progresses, we can always think of leveling the ground in front of us as required.
i am really 'very', 'very' sorry that i was away from the debate and answered you when you may be no more interested about it anymore. I' sorry.
Colleen Steen 500+
Yes, I agree...we can have a mind that is open or closed on different levels. In my perception, information is information....neither "right" nor "wrong" until I accept or reject the information. Then it may be "right" or "wrong" for me, while still "right" or "wrong" for another person, as s/he chooses. I try to be brief as well:>)
I believe you are right! We have at least one enjoyable common point: the willingness to explore. My perception is that I was on level ground when I entered the conversation:>)
Well, I missed you when you were away, and it is ok...I will survive. Welcome back:>)
Faisal Habib
by the way, do u have a personal email address? I'd like to send you an email about something 'interesting', and may be discuss about whether it really is 'interesting' to talk about. FYI, my address is, faisalhabib90@yahoo.com
Colleen Steen 500+
Sharing common points is my pleasure:>)
I am happy to have an extended conversation, and I prefer to use the TED e-mail system.
Thank you:>)
Faisal Habib
we can continue as we were, forgetting about my proposal. i dont mind. i hope u don't too.
referring to your earlier comment, i too assumed a level ground when we started the conversation, so, first, 'a willingness to explore' and then, 'assuming we started on a level ground'... i feel good about the way the conversation is progressing...
thanks for your thoughtful remarks.
thanks
Colleen Steen 500+
I respect your decision as well:>)
Yes, we have in common, a willingness to explore and we are on a level ground with the exploration. I also feel good about that. We have many more commonalities, in my humble perception. We all drink the same water, breath the same air, we experience and share many of the same emotions, and we all share the earth space.
One challenge with believing in one god or another, is that in defending their god and the dogma produced by the religion that promotes that god, we are often destroying each other and the earth that sustains us. So, if I woke up one fine morning to the news that there was no god, it would be interesting to observe people as they asked the question....what do we do now?
Faisal Habib
u sure remember cold war days better than me, somehow, those days were worse than the days passed within two world wars. because the whole world could go to dust within seconds, and the world wars only killed some 'millions' may be! now, if u ask me to explain the role of religions in getting people to wars -- it is 'religions', the root cause; then come others, such as world domination or other things.
i think some people, few may be in numbers, r already thinking abt that, what we do now. cause that morning may not break suddenly around they whole world, but some people are already observing it dawning and at the same time thinking. so, when that morning breaks to the most of the people waking up from sleep only, there will be some answers, i hope. well, don't pls place me to pose as a fortune teller. because, atheists are growing in numbers, slowly may be, as science progresses and only time will tell, when that morning will appear as morning already to people who r still sleeping. as an example, i think the word 'atheist' got included in dictionaries long after the word 'believer'.
so, back to, what do we do now... it will be really interesting to observe who runs after whom to find answers. there will be so many people with so many questions, differing in types, origins etc., but, finding answers within time will prove to be crucial, because, that awful confusion(s) may give rise to war anyway, world wide. people will need food, but that special 'conjecture' may stop the world working. So, i've got something interesting in my mind now, 'will people run for food first or answers first?' everyone will be busy with own problems, some will run for food some will run after answers -- utter confusion....
elizabeth muncey 10+
Faisal Habib
my comment for you is simple. you have found your guiding light, that really feels good, cause so many of us are looking for a light for so long a time. I must congratulate Don for his actions and everything else.
Eberhard Schmitz
Don is truly a "guiding light."
And you have revealed your wisdom.
Wonderful!
Don Wesley 50+
The Devil just keeps us extending the subject further away from the argument which is from God to religion and even breakfasts.
I bring it back to the issue of God, by quoting from some TED Talks as follows:
[Einstein believed deeply that science should transcend national and ethnic divisions. But he watched physicists and chemists become the purveyors of weapons of mass destruction in the early 20th century. He once said that science in his generation had become like a razor blade in the hands of a three-year-old. And Einstein foresaw that as we grow more modern and technologically advanced, we need the virtues our traditions carry forward in time more, not less. He liked to talk about the spiritual geniuses of the ages. Some of his favourites were Moses, Jesus, Buddha, St. Francis of Assisi,Gandhi -- he adored his contemporary, Gandhi. And Einstein said --and I think this is a quote,again, that has not been passed down in his legacy -- that "these kinds of people are geniuses in the art of living, more necessary to the dignity, security and joy of humanity than the discoverers of objective knowledge."]
Don [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
Colleen Steen 500+
With all due respect, the topic is about YOU...and YOUR reaction.
The question: "What if, in a fine morning, YOU learn, "There's nothing called God"! Gods exist from 'god knows how many millenniums'. And they come to mankind as virtual beings time to time: promising heaven and hell and with sets of instructions to be followed - differing according to the religions they propose. WE all, except for a few, are so dependent on them for OUR everyday life - trying to find a purpose of OUR existence, some meaning of what WE call life...... So, WE are born with a specific religion as our birth right and WE fight till death trying to do --- what....
What if, in a fine morning, YOU come to learn that there is actually no entity such as 'god'. That, the concept is no more necessary to live a nice life on this earth...
What might be the first thing in YOUR mind..."
The topic, as presented, is neither religion OR god Don, except in how it might impact YOU. The facilitator asks about YOU and YOUR reaction. Again, with all due respect Don, it is YOU who is moving the topic question from YOU and YOUR reaction, to god and the devil.
Faisal Habib
Feyisayo Anjorin 50+
That morning of discovery that there is no God, will never come.
Gordon Barker 10+
If there is no afterlife and you are responsible for the world and how it will be left to your children (therefore assuming there will be no rapture where the chosen are taken and the rest of us are left), then perhaps you will be a little more interested in the economy, society and your fellow man and the bloody environment
Stewart Gault 30+
Wishful thinking is the idea of heaven, eternal judgement, retribution. Only because it consoles people that in heaven they may meet their child who died in a car crash etc etc. This is why heaven was created in human minds, to account for everything wrong with this world, it would all be corrected in the next. The eternal fear of death some people have.
Wishful thinking would be that Hitler is being burned alive right now, but he's not he's decomposed and you may have breathed in an atom which belonged to him.
And I may concede that it is wishful thinking that there is no god to an extent. I certainly don't hope there is someone so cruel and capricious and mean and evil and incompetent and lazy and indifferent towards their creations.
Anyway, I'd rather go to hell, I imagine it being a library full of books, with a big hearth and all the great thinkers of our time will be sitting their having a free open discussion on skepticism. That would be an eternity I wouldn't mind.
Colleen Steen 500+
With all due respect, I do not believe in a god at this time, and I am very accountable and responsible for ALL my actions and how I live the life experience. I do not need the idea of a higher power watching over me to live with integrity. Is it God-like to believe that YOU have the "right" answer for all of us?
Comment deleted
Colleen Steen 500+
Although I do not believe in a god at this time, I do not label myself because I feel that to be limiting. I am always open to possibilities. I TOTALLY agree..."none can have right answers for all", which is why I like to travel the life experience open minded/open hearted:>)
I would NEVER presume to "correct" you for being "wrong". That feels like taking the role of a righteous god, which I do not believe in!
Faisal Habib
god, existent or not, is not required to differentiate between correct and wrong. humans, on their own, can do that always. but, human nature is such that those two words play major roles among interactions. some people will always act to keep those words balanced in a society (even if we can picture an atheist world some day in future).
Faisal Habib
Gordon answered you correctly.
and to be honest with Stewart, all my life, thinking about god or something like that, i can only find myself at the crossroads of hells. cause every religion asserts that the followers of the othe religions will go to hell. so, i dont mind to go to hell. though, i'll still prey to 'god' that the hell contains a library at least. and about meeting the great thinkers, i'll surely follow the way to the worst of all hells, cause that's the place i'll probably find most of them.
miss colleen, i'm an atheist too:, but never an accountant at all and responsible only when i think that i should be responsible for something -- i may have projected myself as someone little bit too careless, never mind pls. your last question can be posed to not only feyisayo, but to almost all believers alive on this beautiful planet we call earth - who surely will turn towards their own god to find an answer about the proper definition of 'right' and 'wrong' applicable for atheists and the like.
thanks to all.
Colleen Steen 500+
My previous comment was in response to your previous comment (which you deleted?), which started..."I'm an atheist too". As I stated above, I do not label myself because I believe labels to be limiting.
We have the ability as evolving humans to know in our hearts what is "right" and what is "wrong" for each of us as individuals. We also have the ability to understand what adversly impacts others. We all have the ability to take in information and make choices for ourselves. Nobody has the right to decide what we "should" or "should not" believe. I get tired of some folks telling me that if I do not believe as they do I will go to hell. That is simply arrogant.
Faisal Habib
at present i label myself to be an atheist, limiting though, but required. and i'm not sure that i'd like to want to delete the label someday....
ma'am, honestly, i'm on my way to a hell already. you'll find the reason if u kindly review the debate. its been discussed already. its not me alone, stewart gault is also with me.
arrogance is an expression of a certain mental state. my friends from university called my arrogant often. but i'm not gonna go with those people that you find arrogant around u. the word 'believe' alone makes some people around you arrogant because of its differing perceptions among people.
Colleen Steen 500+
You can, of course, use whatever label you choose for yourself. The only label I accept is "human". I am definitely in human form at the moment, and I accept that fact:>)
Regarding your comment...."you don't want to label yourself, which may limit you - no arguments. temporary labeling might be required sometimes, else u may find yourself alone......"
I don't mind being alone. Wherever I go, there I am, so it is best to be content with myself.....yes?
I think/feel that to be one of the challenges with religious fundamentalists/extremists. They don't like to be alone, so they try to pull us into their belief system? When I observe someone trying to convince me that s/he is "right" about what s/he believes, it appears to me that they are insecure in their own beliefs. They may become so dependant on those beliefs that they cannot imagine a life without them? If s/he wakes up one morning and discovers there is no god, everything they have invested in is changed. That must be frightening, do you think so?
I think/feel that if there IS a god, that will be interesting to find out. If there is no god, nothing is lost because my life does not revolve around god/no god.
I have read all of the debate Faisal, and if you are going to hell, I guess I'm going with you as well! LOL:>)
Faisal Habib
i am a loner too, most of the time -- though i really enjoyed my uni life with groups of students all the time.
yes, the believers r really insecure in their own beliefs. an example is: just think how many sects each religion has!
ma'am, that morning will be 'hell breaking loose on earth', even atheists wont be able to avoid the fall.
ok. i respect your interest of finding a 'god' remaining so elusive since creation of life till today....
well ma'am, that makes us three...LOL
Colleen Steen 500+
Nice to have balance...sometimes alone....sometimes with people.....I like balance:>)
Thanks for respecting my ideas Faisal. I am not seeking a god....just open to the possibility. I respect your ideas as well:>)
Faisal Habib
Eberhard Schmitz
Your thinking has his blessings.
It is so good to know you.
Don Wesley 50+
I am always attracted to TED conversations where the word “God” is mentioned. I do choose to “join”some and yours is one. My reply to your question and/or debate is:
“That morning will never ever happen.” Belief in God is not a laughing matter and to clutter this space with the endless details, is be tempted by the devil.
If on the other hand you want a simple good lesson about God and the Devil, I do direct you to two very short lessons.
1 – “A Letter from God” 1965, Broadcast to 12,000 radio stations, by Paul Harvey
http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2012/07/letter-from-god.html
2 – “If I were the Devil” 1965, Broadcast to 12,000 radio stations, by Paul Harvey
http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2012/07/if-i-were-devil-remember-this-was-first.html
Don [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
Faisal Habib
a belief should never be a laughing matter, that's ok, as long as someone can't prove it to be so....
about that special morning, i have already commented before, may be you didn't follow the whole conversation. so, for you again, your quoted statement proves you to be a fortune teller (no pun intended), which, probably your religion doesn't approve as the right path to follow.
i'm an atheist already. so, thanking you for your kind references, i'd like not to follow the links, cause, all of the religions existing in this world can direct one to so many references; references that talk about that specific religion only, producing nothing but that age old question: 'who's right then!?'
Don Wesley 50+
Thank you for expressing your feelings. I am also pleased that you have revealed that you are a atheist.
I also notice, and like, that you feel un-comfortable about disturbing your position as an atheist. That is OK also; because we each have to find what the most comfortable way is that will enable us to live, make a contribution and earn a salary. We all want to do good and to be seen as doing good.
Before joining any conversation I spend good time to review a person profile; in order to better understand them.
I then peruse the conversation from the opening statement, to the end. I also note the topics revealed, the TED Talks and conversations ongoing and finished. All that they have exposed themselves to.
In your profile, you indicated you are struggling. That hit a button in me and my empathy aroused my compassion for you. Welcome to the club of those who are in difficulty. None of us is perfect; most of us have many parts that are imperfect. That being said, we do have the option of being seen as a whole [greater that the sum of the parts] and that whole can be perfect and stun us with it’s beauty. Learning and becoming skilled at “stunning with beauty,” could be a very powerful way to get employed in work you feel best at creating.
Faisal Habib
reaching perfection is an asymptotic curve, so i always set a limit to it, as necessary.
parts combining into 'whole' is something not to be missed. fact is, not all possible 'whole's can stun with beauty, except for a very few. rare, because of its own nature.
learning and becoming skilled is a powerful way, but limiting it to get 'stunned with beauty' only might not be the appropriate way of employing the power it holds. there r so many ways to employ the power to make so many things work the right way, the only condition is trying to be as scientific as possible - that alone can make feel best at creation or a regular work day; without needing supervision of any 'supernatural'.
u r always welcome to disturb me or feel uncomfortable about being an atheist, it wont make any difference at all, never. and sometimes most uncomfortable ways are needed to accomplish something important, such as, a war fare, logical or otherwise. so, being comfortable is the least important factor when one decides to make a contribution really worth doing so...
a businessman thinks in terms of profit / loss rather than salary; though i'm not a business man yet and i have served a long time for 'salary', i prefer to think in terms of profit / loss.
not all of us want to do good. instead, there r a very few who really want to do good by heart. most of us (average human being) sell the idea of being 'good' for some reason, which, in most cases, is money. there r other things also for which people barter the image of being 'good'.
i'm sorry, i don't really want to be seen as doing good, as long as my logic says i'm not harming others for my personal benefits.
'...to be seen as doing good' - pure hypocrisy most people employ to cover 'bad'...
Lejan . 30+
Don Wesley 50+
Your view point is partly true and therefore not the whole truth.
One cannot see what they don't know exists.
The devil likes half truths
Jan-Bernd, your cup is too full to fill with better wisdom.
Leap out of the logic of the cup you are using, into a better cup of wisdom and get into freedom.
Don [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
Lejan . 30+
It is my freedom to choose the way of communication and if you don't like it, that's fine with me, as this is your freedom.
Different from you I would not give anyone a comment on his or hers writing style or written approach on a topic, as you did, because this is pretentious and could be taken as an insult. And actually, that's what it is.
At times I like a 'playful' use of words and Faisal's debate headline almost pushed me into this virtual breakfast scenery by this beautiful picture of a 'fine morning'. Is this to blame? I don't think so. It may not be liked by all readers, but this can not be my problem. Faisal himself joined into this picture and both of us exchanged our arguments and views in a positive way.
As no one is forcing anyone here to read through all comments, the solution to comments you don't like is quite simple - just skip them.
If I have offend your feelings on the topic of 'God' by framing my comment within a context which seems absurd to you (and i do not consider breakfast absurd) I can only say, that this was not my intention and I think if you read my lines again, you may understand what I mean by saying so.
Don Wesley 50+
1 - None of us is perfect. We all have an endless need to keep growing in wisdom. I only hope it is beautiful wisdom.
We always give some kind of feedback to one another; for me feedback is the breakfast of champions.
2 - You have said and I quote "At times I like a 'playful' use of words and Faisal's debate headline almost pushed me into this virtual breakfast scenery by this beautiful picture of a 'fine morning"
3 - My reaction to the subject question is very different than yours and that is OK. You have not offended me at all. All this being said, my view of what is beautiful is very different than yours and that is on the topic; about God.
4 - I consider your contributions, over several months to be excellent. And I truly admire your manner of expressing yourself. And I have no intention at all to insult you.
5 - I have read all answers and arguments injected into this conversation and have ignore none; all are revealing and leave bread crumbs, for all to see in the future.
6 - I consider this a very serious question and/or debate. Please tread carefully on my beliefs, they do make up my identity; the only thing we own. If a given conversation is one where I am not comfortable, I don’t join it. I prefer to start my own.
7 – I truly look forward to your creative input Jan-Bernd. I promise to tread carefully on what you contribute.
Don [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
Lejan . 30+
There is no doubt on my side that none of us is perfect and usually I am the first in the row to proof this statement right on a daily basis.
Also I appreciate feedback on my comments and as long as it is about my arguments, there is no need for anyone to tread careful on them. On the contraty, as I am already used to face harsh resistance from many sides which helps me to think even deeper into a subject.
But to me there is a difference of beeing harsh on my arguments and of 'getting personal'.
This is a line which I allow only a few and very close people to cross, and I think this is the same to all of us.
By what I read and therefore know about you, Don, I was already aware that the topic of god is of high importance to you. And I respect that as I respect any open minded believer.
But I do not, I can not honor your request to tread carefully on your beliefs if I am talking about the subject of god to other people than you. This would be censorship at its worst and I do not think that this was your wish or intention in your request.
So if I talk to Faisal or anybody else on this discussion forum about god or religion, it is not on me to watch your sentiments, it is on you only if you choose to follow this conversation or if you choose to join in.
If we ever meet on this topic again, the only thing I can do is trying not to cross your line and to get personal on your believes. But being agnostic, especially this topic proofed itself very tricky in the past to get a sense for those lines, so you may better stay away from me on this one.
And yes, I was assuming that your comment was not intended to insult me, and it didn't, but marking my ground became necessary.
Respectfully
Jan
Henk Mulder 10+
Within their believe systems these groups all have Gods that perfectly fit their needs and aspirations. Clearly, you can't expect a Christian to pray to Buddha or a Muslim to Elvis Presley: God's are right with their context; even the absence of God in Atheism works perfectly.
But, the atheist God, i.e. the non-God, doesn't work for Christians or Jews and trying to convince them of this will lead to discord. Neither will a Muslim accept the Dreamtime snake of creation. Why would you want to prove that your non-God is better? How will this enhance the lifes of of people that are perfectly happy in their society where they have their own philosophy of life that provides them with social guidance and aspiration?
The wars over Jerusalem were/are fought by people that want to protect or take back part of their cultural identity, including religious identity. Interestingly, Jews, Muslims and Christians may disagree about many things but they all agree that they have the same God and the same ancestry (Abraham).
I agree that religions have divided and still divide people to the point of violence. Other social differentiatiors such as race, wealth, geolocation, political belief system etc etc also divide people to the point of war. I simply don't see how the removal of God will change any of that and therefore why an atheist would want to evangelize his belief in the absense of God to save humanity?
Faisal Habib
a 'non-existence' of a supernatural being may give mankind new ways to think about how the world should be about race, wealth etc. in future.
thanks
Henk Mulder 10+
Perhaps a more fundamental question than "does God exist", is, "does God exist for you?". This is a question that billions of people ask themselves and many struggle with the answer. The proposition "there is nothing called God" shows that you are one of them and any one responding to you, has asked this question before.
Faisal Habib
i'm not a believer and am not waiting for that morning...'god doesn't exist for me'. but u see, an ill-defined existence has left so many battle scars in human history and promises more with more ferocity... settlement - required or not, when and where, is entirely a matter of collective human intelligence.
if existence can't be proven then it is all right to take for granted that non-existence is possible also.
the proposition i posted is not new, i agree, but there has to be an answer: when and where to find it is answered in the previous paragraph. the matter is not that whether the question has been asked before or how many times; what matters is, whether it's time to find an answer...
an answer is required, u may agree or not: it's already been too long a time mankind has been pursuing it, fought over it and vow to continue to keep fighting...
how do u see the future then....
Henk Mulder 10+
Is it time to find an answer to the "is there a God?" question? Of course and billions of people have done so and they have different conclusions and they are all correct. An atheist who "knows" that there is no God has come to that conclusion after asking a number of hard questions. The Christian who believes in Christ went through exactly the same process.
Linking violence to the existence of God is a surprising link. People who commit violence in the name of their deity do so because some other human told them to do so. ALL violence originates with individuals who have the power to unleash it. As an atheist, you know that. Removing God one fine morning won't change that. People simply go to war in the name of democracy, science, water or whatever subject will rally them because all wars and human strife are about power. Humanity is responsible for its own mess.
Faisal Habib
not all conclusions can be correct, satisfying maybe, depending on a person's belief and life. A christian, a muslim, a jew, a hindu and an atheist and all others -- all have their own conclusions, but as said earlier, not all can be correct; else, referring to your figure, it wont have taken 10000 years to reach a common point and end violence in the name of god.
how many wars have been waged to claim jerusalem only! the link is surprising, obviously, isn't it? i wont ask you to spend time researching history to find similar wars around the world.
humanity invented the concept of god, to explain its own mess - power, money etc. just fueled those. a non-existence of 'god' will make mankind try thinking of new ways to explain the mess they create in the name of progress of civilization - they may come out with solutions that will eventually redesign the world and thus abolish 'war' from future dictionaries.