elizabeth muncey

This conversation is closed.

Plus Michelle Obamas plea for education for women. In anything, observe, notice, plan, action, evaluate, review. Think benefit/cost.

I am a woman in a patriachal society. The more a woman shouts the more she is ignored by men who had mothers who shouted and made them feel bad about themselves. This is as true on a macro level as a micro level. Cultural reference in Ancient Greece the only way to stop the constant warring was to refuse sex. Men were close enough to their mothers and daughters not to want to see them raped. Women must be allowed free will as well as men or you lose a very important resource in women's knowledge and creativity.

Closing Statement from elizabeth muncey

I wish to apologise to everyone whoi found this conversation offensive and disrespectful. I appreciate the vocabulary I used did not effectively communicate the ideas I was trying to talk about., I will take this opportunity to think it through and reflect on how words can get in the way of what I am tryiing to say. Thank you again to everyone who contributed. It has given me a great deal to think about.

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    Aug 4 2012: This conversation is being closed early, as it's neither respectful nor constructive.
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    Jul 31 2012: See my other thread about what I think about the arrogance of people who believe they know it all. You are very valuable too, you are non-judgemental and curious. A great combination. As Einsten (or someone like that) said an expert is just someone with a very narrow focus. Be curious about your enviroment. Notice, observe, plan, action, evaluate, review, plan. A never ending story. Try and get into research in whatever interests you most. Communicating is a great start, look at what it has done for Richard Branson.
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    Jul 31 2012: Hey Debra, see my reply to you on another thread, got several threads on the go. Not sure if female emancipation started in N.Z. but yes we were one of the first to give the vote to women. It is about being in the rignt place at the right time to pick up the zeitgeist and act on it. The female immigrants who arrived in N.Z. at the end of the 19th century migrated voluntarily with their families (or on their own). They were not forced into it like the women of Australia who were shipped as convicts and were delivered literally into a living hell. Did you know there were no survivors from the first ship of female convicts, they were attacked on landing. (look it uo, it makes me feel sick). Anyway as I said nature's pattern is 0, 1, 1, 2, 3 not 0, 1 2. There was sufficient opportunity for the women of N.Z. because travelling to N.Z. then was a ship's voyage of at least 3 months. N.Z.ers always travel well. The indigeous Maori are also tough strong people. See at Te Papa's website about the empowerment of Maori ladies and their insistence on maintaining their cultural traditions. I grew up with the best of both cultures.
    • Aug 3 2012: As I stated above women have gotten a reflection of their own self hatred. Taking responsibility for their own creations is the only possible solution.

      It is no different than the domestic violence today. Do women ask themselves why so many men hate them so intensely. It seems to me they only wish to stay victims to what they gave birth to and not own their power to personally take responsibility for what they are doing to create such hatred. Of course not all women are involved in this self destruction and they stand aside with little they can say to the self hatting ones who refuse to see their own reflections in their experiences.

      The men who play to the female victims are like patsies to an alcoholic. "Yes dear your are rigjht, here have another drink?"
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        Aug 4 2012: Again, you are insufferable. A loud mouthed bigot who is proud of it. Where are all the 'innoccent' men - the other half of humanity in your theories - why do they not protect the children. Are you even aware that science has established that the most dangerous person in a child's life is the mother's boyfriend? I bet half the men who are urging you on, even if you are alone are in arrears for chld support or telling a story that the child isn't even theirs. GET REAL! Women gave you life, fed you and kept you alive and all you can do is hate them all? This ingratitude and generalization is nothing less than pathetic. Go talk to your mother and put us all out of your misery!
        • Aug 4 2012: Your intelligence is waning and you are reverting to name calling and blame.

          Mother Superior's boyfriend is dangerous for the children because she chose him to be with her, just as she chose a male doctor to circumcise the son. She uses the trauma which she has created to perpetuate the trauma in her absence so that the finger will not be pointed at her.

          Two former sex slaves Cathy O'brian and Brice Taylor both wrote beautiful books on the perpetuation of trauma by those who are traumatized. Cathy's book is titled The Transformation of America, and Brice's book is titled Thanks for the Memories.

          You seem so enraged at this point that those titles probably will not register, but some one else reading this post may pick them up.

          (Quot from Above) "GET REAL! Women gave you live, fed you and kept you alive and all you can do is hate them all?

          From what I have said I do not understand why you say I hate women. I am only attempting to help all of us out of a morass in which we seem eternally stuck. You are helping me to get past my place of fear around speaking to women concerning their own responsibility in this mess. The self importance of Mother Superior is keeping them stupid as in stupor. I am attempting to break through the stupor of women's self importance.

          I would like women to see the damage which they are doing while they are dreaming Mother Superior and how wonderful they are as mothers. Yes, my mother gave me physical life for which I am eternally grateful and she is grateful that I have found freedom from the imprinting which she unknowingly impose upon me.

          Men are not victim and I have not addressed their responsibility because I am speaking to the female side of the issue. Men must take responsibility as I am doing by breaking free of the traumatic imprints their mother unconsciously (I hope) imposed upon them.

          Maybe at a later date when your emotional charge has been dealt with, you will have the courage to reread this discourse between us.
  • Aug 2 2012: “The more a woman shouts the more she is ignored by men who had mothers who shouted and made them feel bad about themselves.”

    Very good, you have hit upon the basic cause of the gender gap.

    Not only did the mother intimidate the son with words and volume, she has felt herself to be superior to men since the beginning of our existence. I call this the Mother Superior Syndrome.

    The women are inclined toward this attitude by her mere size relative to a zygote she may carry in her uterus. She unconsciously and consciously feels superior to the spirit which incarnates through her because in her self importance believes that she is creating the being to which she is giving a body through her feminine power to open space.

    Attitude has a biological component which conditions the environment of the body. She has a superior attitude which demands the fetus assume inferiority or they are not in agreement at a basic level of capability. If the fetus does not assume an attitude of inferiority it is aborted. In order to get a body the spirit must agree to leave parts of itself outside of form until it finds independence from the mother and can possibly regain its lost pieces.

    The daughter does not suffer this trauma because she knows that some day she will become Mother Superior. She may fight with Mom as she learns self assertion and in the process learns form mother how to intimidate men with the Mother Superior attitude.

    Men in their unconscious inferiority to mother/women compensate with the God attitude. Men play God as a compensation for the self hatred they feel in their inferiority.

    The result is a social patriarchal patina which women support, but smoke screen by complaining about it, because it hides women’s Mother Superior power over men . This has been a rapacious consumer society because men in their fear of women do what Mother Superior demands, better shopping

    If women admit to their attitudes of superiority, Mother Superior and the God problem will end
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      Aug 3 2012: Hello John Allyn yes and think again. Think Fibonacci's 0, 1, 1 ,2 ,3. Most of western scentific thinking is influenced by the Abrahamic religious tradtions. As a society we actually improved our Maths after contact with the Moslem nations. As they refused to worship any graven image they put their knowledge into decorating with patterns. This caused Fibonacci to notice a repeating pattern in many different aspects of what we call nature. It is not man or woman but man and woman to create a child. Parenting practices evolve due to the environmental stresses the adults are subjected to and the effects on the children. People also evolve genetically for the same reason. Emotions and behaviours seem to be very influenced by things like hormone levels. It is millenia of situations where society has treated men as disposable in times of war etc but it is also Nature's filtering mechanism. Many women used to die in childbirth hence they became a valuable asset to be protected by society. Young children who do not feel loved by their mother or their father for what ever reason tend to be angry. You remember what happened to you in your teen years. The male horrmones testosterone and androgen levels dramatically increased. Somewhere there were men in your life who helped you through and helped you learn to manage the huge emotional swings from it all. Women talk men don't. Women are not the evil other they are just different to you. The psychological term for it is projection. A man who has not been appropriately nurtured by his mother and is scared of women or despises them is a very dangerous man. Now think how might it be better to support men to be better fathers, more nurturing. Think about the effects of treating women as objects and the effect of the instant access to pornography on impressionable minds. Think too about the implications of having women who are too hidden in society and men who are too visible and domineering. Brilliant debate.
      • Aug 3 2012: We have been misinformed. In the beginning was not the word (inspiration of Spirit). In the beginning the Will (metaphysical counterpart to the Spirit) opened the space for the inspiration to fill.

        The first act of creation happens when the Will opens space. In the physical domain which proceeds form the metaphysical the Will takes female form and the Spirit takes male form.

        As Above So Below

        All human life comes through a female. What she opens the space for between her legs determines what she gives birth to. If it is a self hating man she opens to she gives birth to the inspiration that self hatred has to offer. If she opens space to a self respecting self accepting man she gives birth to the same.

        It is not just the man’s energy/attitude which is the determinant. The woman defines herself by what she opens space for. If she denies herself in preference to building self importance she will take in a man which denies her and plays to her self importance. He most likely is like her and she will pump his self image in return.

        Our current dilemma is rooted in women not wishing to take responsibility for their power to open space and give bodies to spirits. Consequently when they are violated by the self hatred they gave birth to they claim to be victims

        An analogy is women being the gate keepers at a party. Who they let in determines the quality of the party. Not taking responsibility for the men they invited in results in them blaming the men for what happened.

        Men have responsibility for cultivating with in them respect and self acceptance which honors other and does not violate their space. Some men assume this responsibility, the majority does not.

        I do not see a mass solution to our problem. The amount of self hatred which has taken form on the planet is moving rapidly to validate its point of view. Some individuals seeking life may be able to step aside and not become entangled in their melee
      • Aug 4 2012: (Quote from Above) "It is not man or woman but man and woman to create a child." Mother's have the last word in having their male children traumatize through circumcision immediately upon being birthed. This rape of the male infant at birth leaves a PTS (post traumatic stress) in the male infant at a level below conscious mind which governs his fear of women from then on. The trauma of gestating in such a woman's body for nine months is galvanizes in place through her imposed shock of circumcision.

        Working in an Army hospital I witnessed rape of circumcision carried out on new born infants. The trauma is immense. Religious systems of thought which demand circumcision can only be characterized as a satanic abuse of a helpless infants human rights..Mother Superior needs a reality check.
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          Aug 4 2012: Your ignorance hangs out all over the place. Most women before the advent of ultrasound had NO IDEA WHATEVER of the gender of the child that they were carrying. Your assumptions are merely pathetic. I note that at no time did you - a big strong fella- I assume EVER stand up and rescue one child from such 'rape'. I at least saved 2.

          Where are the fathers in your blame game?
      • Aug 4 2012: Debra,

        The more conscious women have always had the ability to communicate with the fetus inside of them.
        They know its gender and other aspect of itself.

        Do not assume that because the mind of a fetus is not functional at the logical level that it is not feeling and forming impression of itself in relationship to the mother.

        A point which I did not cover before is that the fetus genders are each effected differently by the mother's attitude of superiority. The female assumes the inferior 'feeling' role while being female she has resonance with Mother Superior. The male fetus feels his maleness in relationship the superior attitude of the mother and assumes an inferior attitude and chemistry sensing a lock of a possibility of becoming Mother Superior.

        The male compensation to his inferiority is the revelry of being God. As he grow as a child Mother Superior watches as the God Problem develops. She learn how to manipulate the self image of a man which plays God with out him having a clue. That is why I say a man's responsibility is to get free of his imprinting of inferiority or he will be stuck playing God while all the time being manipulated by Mother Superior.

        We each have our responsibility in dealing with what I term Mother Superior and the God Problem.

        You feel made wrong and blamed personally. I am not doing that, I am attempting to point out an issue which has been given very little attention.

        I am doing my pest at helping Mother Superior down from her ivory tower as painlessly as possible and it is painful for Mother Superior or God to get off of it, and that is where we are at this point in our evolution.

        I see and understand the fear and rage in your posts. They are just part of the process of being beckoned out of self importance into the true self.

        Men are not victims to women nor women victims to men, we are both expressing our ignorance (to ignore) of the true issues between us. This is an expression of my attempt to language those issues
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    Jul 31 2012: In every culture people know what a valuable asset their mother can be. In the Christian tradition we have a Mothering Sunday. Before that there was a Mothers Day when the serving girls baked a SImnel Cake to take back to their mothers. In the Jewish tradition we have a huge respect for Mothers re-inforced with ceremonies in the home every week to say Thank You. In the Islamic tradition as well we have a respect for Mothers but it is more hidden and that is when women end up silenced. I am sure you know of the expression 'seen and not heard.' What do you do in your culture to thank your Mothers. Is it like the Chinese tradtion of giving red envelopes at the New Year or is there something else ? Is it a private family thing or a bigger event.
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    Jul 31 2012: There's a good song by Tupac, about him respecting his mother:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0yM94lTc7A
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    Jul 31 2012: Hey Debra, great to hear from you. I would refer you to the answer I gave James Zhang plus I have several other threads going along the same lines. I would refer you to Fibonacci who discovered a pattern that is repeated in Nature. Mother Nature does not waste resources. It is obviously a highly successful and useful pattern. It is not 0, 1, 2, 3, it is 0, 1, 1, 2, 3. It is all about balance between the knowledge of men and the knowledge of women. It is hugely unfortunate that the knowledge of women has been suppressed for at least two thousand years by men who are frightened of the potential power of women and who are too greedy to keep power for themselves. I'm not talking about the individual man but the group mentality of men. Hence Socrates comment to be wary of the anger of the mob. For mob substitute community, what makes women angry is the denial of the right to create both literally (China) and meta-physically (feminism). It is my belief that the religion of Baal was one of the last female dominated religions, out of Africa and very old. It is my belief that the Oracle of Delphi was actually an African priestess with her hair dressed in something like the hairstyles we know as dreadlocks/corn rows. The information about relating and successful micro-management of resources is still there in the community sub-conscious (as Jung described it). It leaks in the fairy-tales and folk legends that children are taught. I think Disney has picked up on most of them globally now. Look at the Disney princesses, the latest one is a red-headed celt.
    • Aug 3 2012: (Quote from Above) “It is hugely unfortunate that the knowledge of women has been suppressed for at least two thousand years by men who are frightened of the potential power of women and who are too greedy to keep power for themselves.”


      Women keep the power to manipulate the feelings and self image of men to themselves. Men do not have a clue. If they did the women would have to own the responsibility for what they have been doing since the beginning. This covert woman knowledge of men, which she has intuitively and institutionally gained through her position as mother, she uses to dominate him while playing the denied innocent victim. i.e.: “It is hugely unfortunate that the knowledge of women has been suppressed"

      Men sub consciously know at the gut level what is going on and when they have been twisted and manipulated beyond their ability to handle it they go crazy and kill and maim. Women might look at this as a reflection of what they are doing on the sly.

      Your female attitude of self pity and of being a victim to men is all a smoke screen for your own self hatred which you do not know how to process and make peace with in side of yourself.

      Men must take responsibility for understanding a woman's power to dominate them with their own self important self images and their unconsciousness of their own emotions which are so easy for a woman to manipulate through her power of emotion.
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    Jul 31 2012: I enjoyed your logic and rational and some of your insights as well, Elizabeth. I do agree that the one commonality that all little boys originally had was a mother so we need to look to our own behavioiur to understand some of the male perspective.
    Your historical example is great and has been suggested, often by men as the solution. However, I also am a student of life and if I look at the Spartans for example, those men just took the young boys from their mothers and herded them into camps where they had to escape to have any relationship with their mothers. Bonding between the men was held up as such an ideal that is has been written that troop leaders kept their domination intact by expecting sexual favours from their young men. When I was a child in a less tolerant era - one that was also inhibited in the extreme), homosexuality was referred to (as late as the 1960s - in 'polite' company as "the greek disease" remember that at that time it was still classified as a mental disorder. The Spartans worshipped a society that utterly marginalized women and many of our univeristies still hold them up as mascots and ideals.
    • Aug 3 2012: The Spartans are the model of mien's fear and hatred of women and are still respected by male institutions for the same reason. Some day women will possibly admit to what Mama has been doing. What she has imprinted the fetus with and reinforced in the dependent child.

      I do not know how much more male insanity will have to be acted out against women before women get the rather obvious reflection. Women are giving birth to and raising mad men (as in angry). Please take responsibility for your part in this.
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        Aug 4 2012: My part John? Isn't that the same flawed thought process that holds you responsible for what happened to the Native Americans 100s of years ago? I think your freedom to articulate your thoughts arose in this instance out of my statment that we need to reflect on our own behaviour. Where does this way of thinking, however lead us? Do you really want to know or do you care what was done to me by men? Where can this end unless we ourselves say 'enough' I will not perpetuate this garbage?
        • Aug 4 2012: Nearly every male child experiences the rape of circumcision at the hands of the mother immediately upon being birthed. This imprints in the newborn child at the deepest level possible, below conscious mind because the mind has not begun to function at a level of discrimination yet.

          Entertain the thought that the PTS (post traumatic stress) of circumcision remains in men and continues to influence their behavior through out their entire lives.

          Men of course must take responsibility for wishing to take form through the body of such insensitive women. Possibly the only solution would be if they chose not to take form until women chose to change their attitude toward the male infant.

          While working at the Ft Sill army Hospital in Lawton Oklahoma I witnessed circumcision. The shock to the new born's nervous system is tremendous. If mothers had any care or sensitivity for the child this would not be permitted for she has the last word in the decision to have her child traumatized.

          I understand that you may have been raped, physically and/or mentally abused by men, but keep in mind that he most likely was raped at birth through circumcision at his mother's discretion

          When women take responsibility for what they have done while playing Mother Superior, their reflections will change. You personally may be interested in getting out of being a victim to men and thus learning to take responsibility for your part in your own experiences.
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        Aug 4 2012: John, I am deeply sorry for the pain that you feel but I sure do think it is a cop out. Maybe you should read what I actually wrote rather than what you wish I wrote. So then as a military man do you think this early traumatization enabled or caused your unit's willingness to kill others?

        Your arguement has a bit of merit in unaddressed PTSD. I have no penis so in matters of vaginas i think it is only right that men defer to woman who have lived with their anatomy. I did so, in deferring to my father and my husband's father's vehement insistance that their own grandson be circumsized. Additionally, even if your education extended to the bibical account of the origin of circumsision - you would know that women stood against this thing from the very beginning and willingly paid the price of estrangement of their primary relationship- their husbands.

        Just be certain John that I and everyone else has noted that of all the people here I am the only woman in this particular debate on circumsision and it is me- one who is actually in agreement with your stance against circumsizsion that you choose to attack - and that is in my view par for the course for men like you - you take on those you believe to be weak or inferior in your concept of gender or unsupported by your own broken peer group. Read my writing again you wimp.

        As to my 'victimiization' I note that you do not dare to present your face and cast aspersions on me from a distance. If your mom is a b***h go deal with her. I cannot send my sons to deal with you.

        Addition- and my beautiful daugher would not even give you the time of day because her brothers have taught her well to keep away from women haters.
        • Aug 4 2012: (Quot from Above) I have no penis so in matters of vaginas i think it is only right that men defer to woman who have lived with their anatomy.

          This is the sickness I am referring to in women. First women traumatize their sons while removing a body part and then demand that they defer to them because they are whole, untraumatized and more healthy.

          This is a form of female illness which you and your like will eventually have to deal with.

          You may have lived long enough now to realize that the violence by men against women is rapidly increasing. This is a reflection of what Mother Superior has created and literally given birth to. I suspect that as the violence escalates she will eventually take responsibility for her behavior and attitude of superiority.

          I was in the army one year and nine months during the Vietnam War. I had virtually no choice like the rest of the men. Mother Superior did not stand up for them and say no. She agreed to that slaughter through the omission of her voice and presence in the debate.

          As Mother Superior you use your children to fight for you, as you so aptly demonstrate in the following quotations from your post above.........

          "I cannot send my sons to deal with you." (an obvious physical threat)

          "Addition- and my beautiful daughter would not even give you the time of day." (Ahhh!, Daughter Superior)

          If your daughter takes after you she is probable pretty ugly DISGUISED AS BEAUTIFUL.

          I doubt that you understand that I am attempting to help you our of your self generated pain so that men will be released from their burden of Mother Superior the victim.
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        Aug 4 2012: I am not going to debate with you as any sensible therapist being paid to put up with this would dismiss you as an impossilbe case. I remind you that you did not address a single point but went off ranting on your own track. Reality is the pits but it is the only safe place to dwell.Just please please stay away from women. There might be a sort of man who would enjoy this crap.

        By the way - why did you not do this on the site where all the men were debating these issues? Is it because you knew that they would not have stood for this and you wanted to get away with your cowardly attacks on women for at least awhile?
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    Jul 31 2012: There's a fundamental difference between women and men. In the stereotypical sense, women talk in fashion, clothes, makeup, food, diet, etc. In the stereotypical sense, men talk in sports, working out, video games, and in the "bro code."

    So point is, a woman shouting and stuff is the wrong language to talk to stereotypical men. The message that is being sent to men is "you're really annoying, you need to stop shouting, please shut up, etc." lol

    So point is, if you want to convey a message to someone, you should first understand how to speak their "language"
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      Jul 31 2012: Exactly. In the society I live in now, it is very much a man's world. In the society I grew up in women were given more space because people were a scarce resource. My female cousin who remained in N.Z. is a G.P. who trains other G.P.s at University. Her brother, my other cousin is a Professor of Genetics and is now based in U.S.A. She is more intelligent than him, she wanted a family, it impacted on her career. When he had a family and his wife survived breast cancer but his mother and sister were diagnosed as carriers of BRCA1, it has motivated him to research further. Will try and continue the story on the other threads you replied to. I am not sure what culture you grew up in but I believe I have enough of a mutual vocabulary for us to understand each other. I'm am talking about our respective cultural backgrounds. Think of what stories you were told as a small boy to calm you down or tell you how to behave honorably and who told them to you. These stories are richer than we realise.
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        Jul 31 2012: It has always been my impression that New Zeland led the world in strong, sensible and empowered women. I also think that NZ allowed women to vote first. Is this correct?
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        Jul 31 2012: I'm pretty much raised from the suburbs. We don't really have much gender issues, or at least not that I realize. To me, a lot of us just joke around about the stereotypes, but it's all fun and games, nothing offensive. Competition in education is really the only thing important for us in school. Intellectually, it doesn't matter your gender or orientation. If someone is smart, then he/she's smart and we acknowledge that power. Intelligence is intelligence. There was a kid in my school who was one of the laziest guys I know. He never did any homework, or tried anything, but we all knew he was really smart, probably as intelligent or even more so than our valedictorian. This guy always gets A's on tests without studying a thing. He's, imo, a very street smart guy. So I mean, we respected his intelligence even though he was a C-B student lol