- Mike Willmarth
- Napa, CA
- United States
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How do we get students to adopt specific classroom procedures without the use of negative consequences (punishment) or rewards?
This is the continuation of a discussion I posted previously. In response to the initial posting several respondents suggested changing the system to involve more student choice in terms of what is studied. Others suggested that the classroom model is the root of the problem. While we could debate both of these issues, the fact remains that the system in which my students and I work is one that requires students to show a given level of mastery in a given set of skills that neither they or I select. Students who do not show the required level of mastery will still be moved on to the next course in the sequence, however they may also be required to concurrently take a support class to help them acquire mastery in the previous set of skills. This support class comes at the expense of taking an elective which they would probably find more interesting. Given these conditions, it is my goal to help as many as possible acquire mastery of the required skills during the initial class.
With that clarification in mind, I would like to again pose the initial question: I have an interest in having my middle school students use a particular organization system for their class materials. Having a uniform system allows peers to more readily help each other stay organized, allows parents to more easily check on their child’s progress, and allows the class to more efficiently move through our daily transitions. The question, how do I get all students on board without the use of if-then rewards or punishments? I know from my experience (12 years at middle school) that some students will be oppositional and some will be unmotivated. While these represent the exception, not the rule, they are often the students most in need of the organizational structure. Additionally, it is the parents of these students who most often need a simple to follow structure for supporting their child’s educational process.
paul Ashton
I have some questions remaining for you if you don't mind?
Does finding a uniform system in an already perceived "broken" system present to you as an obvious success?
What percentage of observed students do you expect to find success utilizing said system?
What is expected if the student fails to use the "system" successfully?
What do i do if I don't think the "system" is for me?
Does knowing where to find something Constitute knowing how to understand something?
What do you think learning means to me?
How am I reflected in the "system"?
To what extent do you believe I am capable?
Welcome to a new year!
randy johnson
What you are describing is a Glasser Quality School classroom. Here is the main website for the book "The Quality School: Managing Students without Coercion" and "The Competency Based Classroom."
http://www.wglasser.com/the-glasser-approach/quality-schools
Just "up the hill" from you in Angwin, is Pacific Union College. Several years ago my good friend introduced that school to Dr. Glasser and I think they are teaching teachers the Quality School methods. You might go up there and ask who is teaching Glasser at the school. I have been out of the country for a while now and am not current on what they are doing. However, if you ask the people at wglasser.com for more information, they will be happy to help. There are several Glasser Quality Schools around the US and around the globe. I am here in Indonesia working on a Quality School. It is extremely difficult here because the people's mindset is not really interested in education. In my classroom I try to teach two things: respect and responsibility. With these I also teach choices. Indonesian do not believe in choices. They do what they are told and very little else.
Using the Quality School methods I am slowly helping them learn that responsibility is success. They all want to be successful. I let my students know that they get to choose what grade they get in the class. When I give assignments in class, many of them choose not to do them, and I relate that to their choice to be successful in class. When the student does his assignment, I congradulate him on being successful and they are happy to be successful. This is very strange to the "education" system and to students who are used to being told what to do, or else. I am actually seeing success. I teach the 11 and 12th graders, but I should teach this to the lower grades.
Here are two videos that my students like to watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5voG3GyaIOY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGuT9-_Y5J4
Most of all, have fun!
Jon Miner
I have read through a lot of this, and think I have the motivator you need: the forgetting curve.
the brain is very good at remembering what the personality focuses on, and very good at forgetting or storing away what the personality does not focus on, especially if there are negative feelings attached. Math can have many negative feelings attached, especially for the poor student, and you end up with a negative spiral. The more they forget, the worse their grades and the more negative feelings result, causing more forgetting.
The solution must be based on reality, not pie in the sky, not fun, not feelings.I am absolutely not saying you can not use enjoyable and interesting games or activities. On the contrary, that is a major achievement of good teachers. In your case/situation, here is the deal:
The students must avoid the necessity of cramming for the exams. Cramming is caused by lack of ready knowledge. They have forgotten the material. Why have they forgotten? Because they did not review.
So, why did they not review? There could be several factors:
They are not in the habit of reviewing. They have too much new homework to have time for review. They lack a system which enables easy reviewing. They lack an organized source of review materials. They don't know how or when or what to review.
This is a skill set for students, and which is not taught by teachers who are too busy teaching what their job requires of them.
I believe it was Stanford which studied the forgetting curve and came up with a system to help students defeat it.
Students' needs
1. Class notebooks that are treated like diaries. Each page is dated in order, each class has its own section or its own notebook.
2. What the students learn in class goes into the notebook, using references to textbook pages as needed.
3. The students learn the schedule which, if followed, will defeat the evil curve:
Review the day's lessons on the day, after one week, three weeks, and before quizzes and exams.
Mike Willmarth
Thank you for your response. These conversations are really helping me prepare for introducing and justifying my expectations to my students.
Lesley Rickard
What in your view is a 'successful learner'?
Surely this will be someone who can make their own choices about how to learn (even if your system doesn't allow them to choose what to learn). Your idea of an imposed system of organisation of notes and ideas seems to fly in the face of the received wisdom of learner autonomy. Surely their motivation would increase of they felt they had choices? And if you just want compliance then why not use a reward system to motivate them to comply? They have to get something out of it after all.
Barry Palmer 50+
IMO, you are talking about an exercise in leadership and salesmanship. So you might want to visit some sites devoted to those specific topics.
Relate your organization method to your subject, math. Perhaps by pointing out that math is a discipline and requires discipline in thinking and discipline in organization.
I hope this is helpful. You have taken on a daunting challenge.
Mike Willmarth
I have been looking at leadership resources; thanks for the suggestion about salesmanship resources.
Gail . 50+
I would suggest a really fun project that cannot be done without the organizational skills that you want them to follow. It must be something that they really REALLY want to do, (not HAVE to do because they're in school and you said so) and it can be different for each student. Learning about something from the computer with no outside assistance requires great organizational skills.
Of course, you could just work with each of the objecting students every day, while they put things in order. (Eventually, they may get tired of this special attention and get it together. And if conversation is part of the process, you might learn why they are rebelling. There might be a good reason, and they might be trying to tell you something.)
elizabeth muncey 10+
Paul Pie
When reading your explanation of what the students need I immidiately felt myself become one of those "oppositional" students.
I went through most of my middle-school and high-school years without ever taking notes at all. And the idea of having all that stuff was just revolting to me. Whenever a teacher came up with one of your ideas I'd flat out reject it.
That of course lead to some frantic scrambling for notes just before exams BUT:
Me and my friends always proved to be quite ressourceful in organizing ourselves in that time.
Now surely, my option isn't the way to go but realize that your students most likely are capable of getting themselves organized. But if you impose a system which might work for you, you will antagonize your students. Why not take some more time and help your students come up with their own system? Personalized, suited to their behaviour and way of learning.
Because all these tests and reports you've thought up sound horribly annoying. It sounds like one of those tight run businesses straight out of employee's hell. And in my puberty I'd have been the first to draw a dick on those "what I am thinking about now?" papers and chuck them in the bin.
I can see you have only their best interest in mind and never meant for your system to generate such a reaction but I thought it might help to hear the most antagonistic opinion. No offense ment.
In the end, and here I totally agree with you, what counts is that the students learn their skills, hopefully enjoy them and get more personal freedom in choosing what they eant to do next. They way they go about it shouldn't matter.
Mike Willmarth
As for the horribly boring tests and reports, those are not items I've "thought up". Those are tests required by our district and reports that outline students' success on the required tests. I can have whatever opinion I want to about the tests, but I don't get to decide not to give them.
Finally, the goal behind the "What I am thinking about" paper is to help students gauge their level of engagement. Whatever they learn in the future will take engagement. If they can become more self-aware as to how well they engage, they will be better able to avoid the things that become distractions.
The most important skills these students need to learn is how to be learners. It seems professionally irresponsible to have a set of standards for language arts, math and science, but to leave the fundamental skills of how to be a successful learner for students to discover of their own.
Mike Willmarth
Students need a binder or single folder with sections for:
- Home and class practice
- Exit problems
- “What I am thinking about right now?” pages (designed to help students monitor their engagement in class)
- Returned tests and weekly Pacent reports
All students will need a binder or single folder with the above listed section labeled. Students may not substitute other forms of organizing the class materials.
To some, it may seem controlling to dictate a specific organization system for all students. It is. If everyone is using the same program we can provide better support for students who struggle with organization. Admittedly, this runs counter to those who promote a ROWE system. Or those who promote a system that allows students to find a method that best works for them. While both of these approaches may seem more respectful of students’ individual differences, given the dual goals of creating a system that is both efficient and effective I have elected to impose the uniform system described above.
All of that said, my current concern is about best practices for motivation without resorting to if-then rewards or punishments. Thank you in advance for your input.
Fritzie Reisner 100+
During instruction, I would sometimes refer back to earlier warmups/notes but never to returned homework, so there was no reason that returned work needed to come back and forth to school and load down the backpacks.
Another option you have if you want them to collect their returned homework and tests is to keep a file tub at school with a folder for each child with a divider in it. Returned work could go on one side of the divider and returned tests in the other. The folder could go home on a schedule, either for reviewing for tests or to show parents. Having a storage place at school might be a more effective way of getting students to keep things that way and seeing others do it will help remind them to do it.
If you expect reluctance to keep returned work and tests, for example, do you believe that making students keep that work will create a significant probability that they look back at it for study? If they don't look back at it ever, would you still feel good about encouraging them to hang onto it?
Fritzie Reisner 100+
Have you disappeared?
paul Ashton
Mike Willmarth
Again, I hope none of you take my lack of response as a lack of interest. - Thanks
Fritzie Reisner 100+
Timo X
Mike Willmarth
I do grade my students and that grade is based entirely on their mathematics performance. I do not want to go back to the old system where part of the grade was based on how compliant students were. (Such as basing part of the grade on whether students did their homework.)
Timo X
You can, of course, try to convince your students that your organization system is better than any other. This may work, depending on how good your system really is and how much your students trust you. Even so, without any sort of incentive there will be little reason for unmotivated students to adopt it. I suppose it's somewhat of a prisoner's dilemma. The individual has an incentive to use her own method of organizing class materials because it costs the least effort. But, assuming you are correct, everyone will be equally well or better off if all adopt a standardized organization system. Generally, the only way to resolve a prisoner's dilemma is by changing the payoffs of each outcome, i.e. punishment or reward. I don't see a way around it.
Is it really the the punishment and reward system that offends you? Otherwise you might be able to think of more creative ways of rewarding and/or punishing your students than grading. For example, an excursion or fun project may be a good reward.
Bob Stiglitz
As jobs get automated and offshored the profitability of a persons ability to sell labor plummets and hence this creates enormous stress on the society as opportunities have been destroyed and eroded through automation and the billion surplus human beings. We live in an age where most people are superfluous to the economic system. You should take a look at Citigroups leaked memo (google it). We live in a plutonomy where most economic activity is driven increasingly by the rich.
paul Ashton
Maria Alexandra Radu
It would really help if you gave more details about the system as I don't know if I should think about a set of rules for learning or weekly assessments of their work or how they organize their homework and lessons.
Mike Willmarth
- Home and class practice
- Exit problems
- “What are you thinking about right now?” pages
- Returned tests and weekly Pacent reports
All students will need a binder or single folder with the above listed section labeled. Students would not have the option to substitute other forms of organizing the class materials.
Maria Alexandra Radu
george lockwood 20+
Wade Crum
Scott Armstrong 50+
this is where people can bridge the gaps that no system can be flexible enough to encompass. as such, it's going to be a constant uphill push for those exceptions but given patience and putting student before system, you'll probably make an impression on those students that will stay with them all their lives.
be supportive, patient and flexible - everything a system cannot be.
Gail . 50+
James Zhang 30+
Mike Willmarth
Ian Sheane
Gail . 50+
When I was in school, I was forever waiting for the rest of the class to catch up. I remember my first day of reading class in first grade. I somehow knew how to read (and being surprised & amazed by that), so I read the whole book in the time that the first student was struggling to read the sounds aloud. I was chastized for reading ahead.
By third grade, when Mrs. F started the first class of the first day of school, she started with a review. I still see it: "One bluebird plus one bluebird. How many bluebirds to you have" That was the day that I turned off and school became torture.
When I was 15, I wanted to add the one English credit that I needed for early graduation, but no one would let me. Oh how I wanted to learn, and oh, how I was always stopped dead in my tracks.
I also think that it would be helpful if teachers called students, "Mr. so-and-so" and "Ms so-and-so". I remember knowing how my teachers were disrespecting me, and given how badly they were treating me by forcing me to wait for the rest of the class, resentment at the world grew.
The problem as I see it is that teachers are incentivized to work against student's humanity (not to mention, required to).
May I suggest: http://www.ted.com/talks/salman_khan_let_s_use_video_to_reinvent_education.html
What Mr. Kahn says about why technology is better than teachers (at teaching) hit me as "on-spot". I'm thoroughly enjoying going through the math courses that I hated in middle and high school. The practice sessions are just fun - like video games. Very rewarding for successes with no punishment for lack thereof. I feel so proud of myself when i master something challenging. I don't need a teacher's words, because I long ago learned to not-trust teachers.
No offense intended. Thanks for the GREAT ?
James Zhang 30+
Khan Academy is definitely very cool, and is a great way to learn things, especially on your own. However, I do not think online education should completely replace public education. The biggest fundamental difference is, public education is not just about learning the stuff, it's about learning how to deal with the environment you're in and how to deal with other people.
So, public education needs to capitalize more on human-to-human and social interactions. That is something that's very hard to learn through online education imo. They need to capitalize on teamwork and collaboration. An Introvert cannot be completely private, and an Extrovert cannot be totally intrusive of others. The new system needs to support all these different types of learners, but also needs to support some kind of common ground. Lone Wolves need to communicate to others their ideas, and the People's Person needs to understand how the Lone Wolf works, and vice versa. That's the kind of communication that needs to be established in some kind of collaborative setting.
Gail . 50+
James Zhang 30+
http://www.ted.com/conversations/12955/let_s_design_a_new_education_s.html
Fritzie Reisner 100+
James Zhang 30+
James Zhang 30+
The entire class needs to get a B in this course. If one person fails to do so, then everyone fails. No child left behind.
Gail . 50+
Look at the difference in inner-cities, when you get one who is so exceptional that the sky is the limit, but she is the only one in the class who is inspired. It is her job to lead the class in the name of her own survival? How do you force the uninspired child to drink, no matter how much water you offer?
James Zhang 30+
Basically this is what needs to first be established. They all need to first recognize their similarities and differences before they can work together.
Similarities: we're all in this predicament together. We're all trying to pass the course. We're all human beings with feelings and curiosity.
Differences: strengths and weaknesses. I am better at this person in drawing or art. Another person is way better at coming up with cool ideas. Another person has a much better understanding of logic and concepts than others. And another person can understand other people's feelings better than anyone else.
I want to communicate the idea that no one strength is greater than another. All strengths are necessary to accomplish something far greater than any one person's accomplishments.
So perhaps it is the teacher's job to simply regulate, make sure no one gets too extreme. And when a conflict arises, if they spend too much time to argue, the teacher should step in, assess the situation, and help make an agreement. Make sure every child is involved in one way or another, no child left behind.
Gail . 50+
James Zhang 30+
Gail . 50+
James Zhang 30+
Derly Johanna Barreto
I agree with online education and the use of technology as a tool for learning but teachers are important and public education too.
Gail . 50+
Derly Johanna Barreto
Dan Geurin 10+
Seriously though, kids have to see that what they are doing has some sort of practical application. Good teachers are good at keeping kids motivated during the stretches of boredom that come along with learning new things. Even when we like something, we need a change in the routine and some positive reinforcement to keep going.
paul Ashton
paul Ashton
Fritzie Reisner 100+
This is absolutely true. When we share with students ways of learning, including ways of organizing, checking ourselves for understanding, and connecting ideas to each other, we should be doing this not to create students in our own image but to offer experience with an option that is worthy of their consideration for their own toolboxes.
Certainly by the time students are, say, ten or eleven years old, we should be able to justify the system we are proposing to them.
What replaces bribes or punishments in the classroom is credibility. Credibility does not comes with a job title once students are of middle school age. It can only be earned.
paul Ashton
Make exploring and choice a priority in learning. Learn how to be funny. Become talented. Love technology.
Exploit said class identity within the school identity. Affect concreate change in the community identity by exploiting school identity. This creates roots in he community.
Ware them down with physical activity, and metacognitive challenge.
Personalize.
Bake for 10 months with a heavy sprinkle of self-accomplishment and presto!
Enjoy!
James Zhang 30+
understand how your students think and work.
paul Ashton
James Zhang 30+
Gail . 50+
I don't like competition. I do enjoy collaboration, from time to time, but only after I have mastered the skills that we use in our collaboration.
pat gilbert 50+
James Zhang 30+
So maybe the best habit is to constantly ask "why" to like literally everything. Use repetition to focus on curiosity...
Zared Schwartz
James Zhang 30+
Gail . 50+
James Zhang 30+
The other issue is, we NEED more innovative minds soon. Why should a school raise a bunch of kids and make them memorize things? A machine and a robot can learn the entire curriculum from elementary school to high school in 2 minutes top. If they're gonna treat the kids like robots, they might as well just turn their school into a factory that makes robots and machinery. And you and I both probably don't want that.
So what needs to be done is finding a new, more effective system to inspire community, curiosity, and creativity imo.
Maximilian Thomas
Fritzie Reisner 100+
Gail . 50+
Fritzie Reisner 100+
James Zhang 30+
The idea is to create a feeling that each student in the course is NEEDED for their strengths.
And maybe, what they could also do is have different classes compete with each other on the same class project?
And the teacher's role is to be the regulator or the government. If a kid is getting frustrated or something, don't be like "You gotta do this or else you're gonna fail the class." The teacher has to be like "What's the matter dude?"
Maximilian Thomas
James Zhang 30+
So students can work individually since some students work better when alone. But that should not mean they're excommunicated with the majority. So these students need to figure out a way to communicate his own ideas with everyone else, meanwhile the other kids need to figure out a way to include the "lone wolves."
Basically, I want a format that is flexible enough to give options. Kids can work individually if they want, but that shouldn't stop them from collaborating or hanging out with other people's houses to work on something. And neither should a very private person should be "forced" to work collaboratively. The only thing they are "forced" to do is be able to communicate to everyone else their ideas and intentions, and the other people are "forced" to accept the individual workers' way of doing things.
Btw, did you receive my message?
Jon Miner
Your idea works in an environment that requires many kinds of abilities. It reflects the work environment of the 'real world.'
However, what about the learning environment, where students are learning the skills they will need later. Skills must be learned at some point. Mixed skill set environments are not optimal when it is the skill set itself which is being learned. Or do you believe that beginning typists should be taught the same material as advanced typists, or that students studying documentary video-graphy the same as beginning photography? Getting students to cooperate is not the fundamental solution. Classroom flexibility is not a fundamental solution either.
The fundamental problem is cost. Schools cost, teachers cost, materials cost, and support for the environment costs. How to get the most bang for the buck has led us to the situation we now find ourselves in. Finessing the situation through cooperation and flexibility may work when the required skill sets are present within the work group to satisfy the needs of the problems to be solved.
When the situation is one in which the skill sets themselves are being developed, then utmost focus must be place on the students' achievement of those skills. Time chatting on Twitter is probably going to be wasted. Questions asked and answered in class will probably help more students more quickly.
James Zhang 30+
"Mixed skill set environments are not optimal when it is the skill set itself which is being learned." Yeah, so I'm saying the education system needs to adopt a more flexible teaching style that addresses as many different types of learners out there, not just the booksmart people.
Of course I don't believe that a kid on calculus level should really be with pre-algebra students in a math class. Most of those advanced students got ahead through outside of the curriculum offered. In this case, maybe that outside source is online education.
In regards to cost, I can certainly say that textbooks are not the way to "get the bang for the buck." But you're right, one of the most fundamental problems is indeed the cost. Cheaper costs can be found through newly discovered cheaper/efficient methods to adopt.
Cooperation can be seen at an early age. Like I've seen kids build stuff together in Minecraft or on the sandbox area on the playground. I mean, it really just depends on the difficulty of the project they're working on, but you can find easier things to do like Minecraft for example that any kid can play.
"When the situation is one in which the skill sets themselves are being developed, then utmost focus must be place on the students' achievement of those skills."
Aside from the basic skillsets that can let you be more succussful in the world, like personal financing, politics/government/current events, how to use your computers, communication skills, everything else should be free reign.