This conversation is closed.

The hours and days of the standard work week should reflect changes in worker productivity since the 5-day, 40-hour work week began.

Unions are probably failing because they seem to lack the guts of the early labor movement, when union leaders stood up for fairness and decency in the labor market. While General Motors owners and managers turned to taxpayers to bail them out of their disastrous management, workers were required to take pay cuts to keep their jobs. Pay and the work week of today do not reflect the productivity gains made since the 5-day, 40-hour work week was installed. Maybe that's why the economy is crashing. Maybe fairness is good for all. Cut the work week to 3 days and 24 hours. Increase the minimum wage to $25.00 per hour. Let's get equitable. After all, who adds the most value to the goods and services produced? And look at the impact on family life. People exhausted after work unable to spend quality or quantity time with spouse, children, friends. People spending the 2-day weekend barely recuperating from the 5-day work week. Let's make this change now.

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    Jul 31 2012: There is no place to respond to an outrageous claim so I will simply ask our general group how popular Mein Kompf was in the run up to WW2 in Germany and did that make that piece of literary trash right?
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      Jul 31 2012: Atlas Shrugged came out over 50 years ago. These 2 are apples and bird cages, in other words it is illogical to consider them comparable.
      • Jul 31 2012: You are illogical in making a claim to knowledge about something, e.g., relative position of women and men within the USA, while ignoring credible information from multiple credible sources.
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    Jul 31 2012: Hi Rhona! I love that you are exploring important societal issue and I apologize for getting sucked into the highjacking of this valuable conversation.
    I tend to speak either from personal experience or from well researched perspectives and I appreciate that in your writing as well.
    When I was at GM I noticed a lot of horrid practices including running the company into the financial ground before every contract negotiation. Once this manifested as digging a hole inside the factory so deep that the earth mover at the bottom of that hole (outsside the enclosure where I worked) appeared so small from where I was standing that it was diminished perceptually in size. When that contract was renegotiated insisting of cuts and screaming of poverty for poor GM - they fillied in the hole and built NOTHING.

    It is hard to believe any body that employs such obnoxcious bad faith tactics.
    I support your idea of a shortened work week and I think it should be two groups of 3 1/2 DAYS TO instantly double emplyment opportunities and to allow those people such as those below to work 2 jobs and if they so choose croak early or max out on their money stash.
    • Jul 31 2012: I am with you all the way. GM must put a whole lot of money into public relations to have pulled the wool over the eyes of so many. It seems so obvious that management failed the company and yet management and owners seem to get away with blaming labor. Pathetic. I also do not understand why the linkage between manufacturing gas guzzlers and the oil industry, e.g., EXXON, has not been fully explored, explained, exposed.
      Even while the Germans and Japanese were shipping cars obviously desired by American consumers, GM chose to ignore the effective demand of these consumers. Now, those people who pay lip-service to believing in capitalism, turn to the public dole fo bail them out of their own incompetency. I wonder how we can change things for the future or will the 1% and big corporations continue writing our laws, influencing the votes of our "elected" government representatives, and holding down the wages and well-being of the people who do the hard work producing the products.
      By the way, I'm fine with the 3 1/2 day work week. Let's get some equity going within our economic and financial systems. The multiple frauds perpetrated by people behind the scenes whose names we probably do not know is causing the deterioration. Let's expose them, stop them and replace them with honorable, smart people. Our nation overflows with good people. All we need to do is link up the good, productive people with the power and rewards that are their due. POWER TO THE POSITIVE! We can turn this downward spiral into a strong upward spiral by injecting truth and justice into the system. Let's do it.
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        Jul 31 2012: Rhona for president!
        • Jul 31 2012: If that's what it takes to elevate the joy level of our contemporaries, I'll do it. I need to have a political party nominate me (I think). I'm thinking a good name for that new political party would be either the PARTY PARTY or the POWER PARTY. I'm open to suggestions. Guess I'll need a new outfit for the inauguration. Oh, well. I'm flexible. I like doing things I have never done before. So far, I have never been President of the USA. Yeah. Okay. I'm ready.
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    Jul 29 2012: dollarsandsense.org/archives/2001/0901mutari.html This is just one of a few articles I've found on the subject. I agree with Rhona on the shorter work week. Many of us are chasing our tail, barely keeping up with the bills, all the while not having time to spend with our family and self improvement. I think it would open up many positives on the base economic side. This is premised on my belief that people would not sit at home and do nothing during their extra time off. They would get out do things, in general, circulate their earned income. Myself, I would spend my extra time learning, taking new courses, building my own business, attending social activities. The list goes on.

    The minimum wage increase is a bit harder for me to swallow. In my opinion, which is subject to change based on new information, I believe setting a minimum wage makes us less competitive in the global labor market. It also defeats the individual drive towards self improvement. High minimum wage could actually harm small start-ups as they could not afford the initial labor costs which we see today but more due to health care than minimum wage.

    I would suggest some type of wage fairness policy based on competency. I'm going to have to reseach this aspect. I would love to have more discussion on these two topics and maybe find a path to the same end game we seek. I think it's quality of life if I'm not mistaken. Let's spend only a small effort on why it hasn't worked in the past and spend more efforts on how to make it work. Isn't that what TED.com originally intended?
    • Jul 30 2012: Wade, I am delighted with everything you said here. I completely agree that all of our energies should be spent in co-creating the future facts to be the way we want them to be to accomplish all of our positive goals. With people such as we are and others here, we shall succeed. I'm glad you understand the points I am making. It feels good to be understood. Thanks. And thanks for expressing your true thoughts on this matter. Of course there will be a powerfully positive stream of consequences to freeing up people to manifest themselves in miscellaneous positive ways, e.g., learning, creating, producing, enjoying, sharing.
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      Jul 30 2012: People have to make there break even point? the only way that is going to happen in fewer hours is to give everyone a raise this is the same as a higher minimum wage. The reality is that this will drive business off shore.
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        Jul 31 2012: I can't work out how the US can have such a low minimum wage and still be uncompetative. In AUS our minimum wage is more than double the US and the tax free threshold has just been raised to $18000pa. But we are still headed for a budget surplus federally (maybe). Perhaps the US population has outgrown the resource base so you can't prop your economy up by digging stuff up and selling it to China like we do.
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          Jul 31 2012: I'm sure that is part of it if that is what Australia does, I know a lot of Canada's GDP is from that.

          On the Heritage index Australia is number 3 in the world it is doing a lot of stuff right. My take on this is that the U.S. spending is the problem. As money that otherwise be spent for goods and services now have to go to the government. Here is quote from the Heritage site:

          "The loss of economic freedom hits the poor especially hard. Over the past decade, countries that increased economic freedom saw poverty levels fall almost twice as much as countries that lost freedom. People in countries with more economic freedom were not only happier, but more prosperous. The correlation between economic freedom and prosperity is stunningly high, with more freedom translating to greater per capita income.[6]"

          As Thomas Jefferson wrote to John Adams in 1785, “all the world would gain by setting commerce at perfect liberty.”

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        Jul 31 2012: Spending almost as much as the rest of the world put together on defense does seem a little over the top. Maybe its time the US suggested that the rest of us are on our own for a while. The US does maintain a lot of foreign bases that are probably not necessary anymore. Plus if you suggested to other countries (AUS included) that they need to stand on their own two feet defense wise they would buy more hardware from the US. A win win?
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          Jul 31 2012: Agreed, idea of fight to start democracies does not hold water.

          You also have to consider that accumulated debt and unfunded liabilities and the interest of the debt that has accumulated since the early 50's is a hell of a burden not to mention that 40 cents of every federal dollar spent is borrowed. This is why me and my ilk are so incessant about ignorance to government debt.
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    Jul 30 2012: yet again someone pretends to know better what is good for me. why can't i make that decision? why can't i negotiate my working conditions with my employer / employee? why do you want to tell other people what is the right amount of work and wage?

    why do you think the week is still 40 hours? because it is regulated! it can not be below 40, because it falls under different tax and other rules. if employment would be free, some people would work 50 hours, some 30, based on their own preferences. the state has no right and has no reason to interfere with it, and penalize some over others.

    it is time for liberalize the labor market, so it can advance forward after a hundred years of hibernation.
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      Jul 30 2012: Krisztian, I like that idea about being about to negotiate your time between employee/employer. I'm not a big fan of one size fits all regualtions. I don't think one business model can blanket all businesses. Many businesses are seasonal and other businesses are subject to market fluctuations.

      In Rhona's defense, she makes no suggestion of knowing what's best for you.
      In the spirit of TED.com we need set aside past failures of government regulations. Instead of attacking each other we should discuss WHY something would be BAD or WHYsomething would be GOOD. We are quickly becoming divided where one side is unflexible capitialism and the other side is unflexible socialism. Neither system works perfectly, both are plagued with abuse and corruption. We need to spend our time discussing solutions. Their are millions of brilliant minds out there who can't act on their ideas because they are tied down in debt because their cost of living is out of control while wages fall behind. My goal is to set these minds loose. There are many complex factors at work that are causing this disparity. Let's put our minds (TOGETHER) and work it out.

      I look forward to working with you through lively discussion :)
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        Jul 30 2012: yeah, you know, i'm navigating between the scylla of talking to the person and the charybdis of reacting to the idea. i understand that she has the best intentions, and seeks for ways to improve the lives of her fellow men. we ought to be respectful toward each other. but on the other hand, she presented an idea that is, in essence, puts me in chains. deprives me of my most basic rights of taking care of myself the best i can. she would unleash the rabid dogs of the state to come to me with their guns and handcuffs, and force me to obey the her principles. that should inspire fury from me. so how can i reconcile it? how can i be polite to the person and smash the idea with due anger?

        we got so far away from reality in our public talk. so much doublethink and doublespeak is going on, we can utter words of that nature, we can call for killing, imprisoning, forcing and depriving without even realizing it. we hurt each other with a smile on our face.

        so what do you say. should i smile too?
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          Jul 31 2012: First let me say, I'm no expert on the subject and can only add what I have experienced personally. I come to TED.com to gain knowlegde through other people's experiences. If we combine the collective experiences we might come up with something that works..on any given subject. Perhaps your system works, if so I would love to hear how it works. Or, moreover, why you feel a shorter work week may put you in chains, whilst we are already chained to a 40 work week?

          Let me say, I'm a huge fan of Ayn Rand and could see why you feel government should make no regulations in matters of economics and free enterprise. But I can only speculate as to why you feel anger. Please accept my apology if I'm overreaching in this forum.
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          Jul 31 2012: Wade

          Look at the back and forth below between Rhona and me, who is communicating and who is not?

          The reason this is so irritating is that these wonderful ideas that are espoused require funds that are taken by force as indicated by Ayn Rand. This becomes very onerous for the average citizen whether they realize it or not. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. If you think this is metaphorical or theoretical you are asleep, which most are.

          Look at the graph of personal saving rate at 2.50 minutes into this video and compare it to the graph at 3:50 showing national debt they are both correlative of each other and started in 1985 which indicates what I'm talking about.

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          Jul 31 2012: I did take note of your bond with Pat and Wade before I commented Krisztian but you surprise me in running to his aid here. Did you even read what he has written on another thread before you defend his honour? The bullets tell you that my response was for Wade.
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        Jul 31 2012: " why you feel a shorter work week may put you in chains"

        suppose i want to work 6 days a week for 10 dollars an hour. i have no education, that is what i can get. but doing so, i will be able to save some money, buy a lemonade stand, and be my own employer. that is my dream.

        until some good soul comes along, and tells me that no, i can't do that. i have to work only 5 days (3 days, 2 days). more to that, either i do something that worth 20 dollars an hour, or i'm out. since i have no education, nobody will hire me for 20. so i will live on food stamps. i will have no money to save, and my lemonade stand remains a dream. thank you people, i'm overwhelmed.

        so behold. we are not talking about freedom to suffer or to be stupid. we are talking about genuine, working plans about an individual's own life. and out of good intentions, this life is essentially destroyed, reduced to a vegetative state, a leach on societies blood stream, at the mercy of the people.
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          Jul 31 2012: Three against one is not enough so rude reinforcements from outside were needed? Good greif- who knew that Pat was supposed to be untouchable!

          I paste below what I am referring to!:

          Qyv isn't allowed to help in some situations:


          Who is Larry you may be wondering...

          Check back later today & I will show you who Larry is. For now I can tell you that Larry represents ALL of us. We don't get to choose the hands we are dealt, we have to play the hand we are given.
          But what happens when we play our hand right & win, but the dealer takes our money anyway?
          Alone we lose, if we band together & fight injustice as a whole group...we get a chance to win again.


          A friend of yours??????
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        Jul 31 2012: OMG another Randian! That explains so much. Do you all stop reading as teenagers?
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          Jul 31 2012: yeah, anyone with a differing opinion must be stuck at teenage mindset. and i'm the bad guy.
        • Jul 31 2012: I hope you were down in TX Thursday, they were filming Part 2 and needed 'extras'. Who is John Galt?!?? Ask Peter T.
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          Jul 31 2012: @Qyv Qyv, wow, they are making the next part? i was kinda sure it will be cancelled
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          Jul 31 2012: They are making the second part very cool. I went to the first one.

          Debra what are the numbers on Atlas Shrugged? Oh that's right best selling second only to the Bible. Especially when the economy sucks and people need to find true North because it sure is not coming from those who are purported to know.

          Hmm a lot of people who are, what do you psychs say regressive?

          How about Debra do you want to be an extra in Atlas Shrugged. He sure is shrugging these days in Californiaeh (see what I did there? it is the Canadian pronunciation of California)
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    Jul 26 2012: The major problem with the whole US auto industry is that for 30 years patriotism and protectionism prevented imports. This resulted in 2000 model cars built with the same technology as 1970s cars. It always amuses me when I hear some American saying we can help fight global warming if we make cars more efficient and they quote targets like 40mpg. Meanwhile the rest of the world has been getting 40mpg for the last twenty years.
    • Jul 28 2012: peter, I believe that autos in Great Britain and other countries in Europe actually get up to 60 miles per gallon. I think that one of the reasons US car makers stuck with producing gas guzzlers for so many years and continue to decline to produce cars with fuel efficiency at the current state-of-the-art is perhaps they are in cahoots with the gasoline sellers. I wonder about the linkages between auto and gasoline producers in the USA. It's interesting the way the mismanagers of the auto companies who dragged their companies into failure seem to have gotten away with blaming labor for the failures of management.
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    Jul 25 2012: Rhona

    That comment is beneath your intelligence.
    • Jul 25 2012: pat, since you did not specify what you deem beneath my intelligence, let me see if I can figure out what your objection to my proposal is. 1) Germany and Japan were not smarter than GM in manufacturing the autos the American consumer effectively demanded. 2) Labor costs represented more than? less than? 10% of the total cost of an auto, so the 90% (more or less) of the price paid for an auto goes to ______? 3) Family values are not really all that important. Politicians just pay lip service to that concept to get votes and do not put the tax payer dollars where their mouths are, preferring to use taxpayer dollars to bail out people who pay lip service to being "capitalists" or "entrepreneurs" who are unwilling to accept the down side of the risks they take and their management failures.4) $25.00 per hour is not sufficient to live at a decent standard and send your children to college.5) Worker productivity has substantially increased/not increased since thed 40-hour/5-day work week was initiated.6) Quality of life is not a consideration for labor; quality of life is only significant for owners and managers because they _______(?) 7) Equity is not important. Increasing profits to owners and bonuses to managers no matter what they contribute to the value of the final product is what counts. 8) Keeping labor down financially has/has no impact on effective consumer demand. 9) Draining the energy and consuming the hours of working people elevates the self-esteem of those who underpay and overwork human beings. 10) Our economic and financial system is doing just fine/not doing just fine. Please articulate your position, if you feel like it. I am curious.
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        Jul 25 2012: My point is simple. if companies have to pay what they have been paying for 63% of the work in other words the labor cost went up 160% and minimum wage went up to $25.00; the jobs would be sent off shore in a heart beat. This would destroy the middle class and the future middle class.
        • Jul 26 2012: I am interested in your opinion of who is and isn't middle class. I hear very different definitions from different people about who represents the middle class. I grew up very poor and now I am a professional who considers himself middle class. What is the cutoff?
          Is a household that makes $80,000 per year middle class? What about a household that makes $150,000 per year? At what point does middle class become wealthy? What is the cutoff between the poor and the middle class?
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        Jul 26 2012: According to the POTUS "rich is more than $250,000 per year. I understand even at 150k it is not like you are rolling in dough your expenditures still come close to your income.

        According to this census bureau website:


        The lowest quintile is around 20k

        The highest quintile is over 180k

        There are some factors to consider regarding quintiles:

        The lowest quintile income from public transfers is not counted as income I don't remember the numbers but a substantial amount of the lowest quintiles income does not show up in statistics. They are things like welfare, public housing, food stamps, etc. What percentage of your income goes to housing and food?

        Very few people stay in the lowest quintile for long.

        Very few people stay at the top 20% for long as well. As people will have a spike in income that is short term.

        The make up of households has changed in the past 30 years, a greater percentage of them is not from two incomes. This makes for the following household income trope, that Elizabeth Warren loves to yammer about.
        • Jul 28 2012: pat, The USA likes to think of itself as "world leader." Perhaps true leadership would come with establishing a new, more humane 3-day/24-hour work week with a $25.00 or $30.00 minimum wage. I understand your point about international competitiveness. There may be some short-run issues to deal with, but I believe the ultimate impact would be purely positive both nationally and internationally. I think truth, justice, decency, compassion.....stuff like that has payoffs within all realms of existence. Happy Today.
        • Jul 28 2012: pat. while you are discussing all those quintiles, how about taking a look at where children and women fall in these affluency figures. Gender equality is essential to co-creating the kind of society you and I desire to live in.....decency, sanity, rationality, good values, fairness, honesty, health......stuff like that. Male domination has failed to produce a healthy, happy population. Male domination has resulted in great distortions with distributions of wealth, health, education and more that are unrelated to simple justice.
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        Jul 28 2012: Rhona

        We are not going to agree on any of this.

        Your ideas on hours and wages would drive business out of the country quicker than you can say Sarbanes Oxley. This is not my opinion it is a fact.

        Women do have equality, I know the media says otherwise but if you are listening to the media that is the source of your ire.

        If you are interested Google Thomas Sowell about Women's equality and Thomas Sowell on the effects of minimum wage laws on black people. Google Smoot Hawley about the effects of protectionist legislation, it is not the same thing but the effects would be similar.
        • Jul 28 2012: pat, I am comfortable with our not agreeing with each other. That does not interfere with my respecting you and your input to this conversation. Nevertheless, I do not understand how you can ignore the statistics on the status of women (and children) economically and otherwise within our society. Surely you are aware that women earn 77% of what men earn doing the very same work. Surely you have some idea of the percentage of women that are full-professors in universities. I would like to know where it is you have found women to have equal status...in your religious institutions? in local, state or Federal government? in courtrooms sitting as judges? Making the assertion does not make it so. I wish it did. I guess all of us have selective perception. Leading the world in war armaments does not represent world leadership to me. Setting a high standard of living for the majority of our citizens would represent world leadership to me. We are falling behind. I believe approximately a million children per year are entering poverty...from middle class in recent times. Oh, well. Let's move on. You want to think women have equal status within the USA. I want women to have equal status in the USA. Let's just co-create the future we desire by our own words and acts.. Happy Today.
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        Jul 28 2012: Surely I mean Rhona you have heard the saying lies, damn lies, and statistics?

        The statistics are not true if you are interested then Google Tomas Sowell and equality for women and he will state probably in video form why what you contend just isn't so.

        Here is one of many:

        • Jul 29 2012: pat, based on your approach of selecting sources that support the view you choose to hold, I no longer wish to discuss this matter with you. I know very well about misuses of statistics. That is exactly what you are trying to do. You failed. Your choice to ignore ALL respectable sources of information, e.g., academic research, think tank research, government research, respectable media research, I no longer respect your approach to this or any matter. I conclude that, rather than holding a different opinion, you are simply wrong. Check in with truth and reality sometime. It will keep you sane. Best wishes. Bye. Bye.
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        Jul 29 2012: Rhona, does this mean that you don't love me anymore?

        Can you give me an example of the respectable research you are referring to?
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        Jul 29 2012: As to the first reference it appears to be talking about world wide in equality. I'm referring to the U.S,, of course there is inequality in the middle east with women being forbidden education, etc. I don't disagree or know much about this.

        In the second article from Forbes they don't have any sources.

        From the 3rd article within it's context:

        "In other words, for most careers the company studied, PayScale found that the pay gap is largely the result of outside factors. Within a specific job, before controlling for outside factors the typical female worker earns pay that is only 90 percent of the typical male worker’s pay; after controlling for these variables, she earns 94 percent of the typical male worker’s pay. For jobs paying below $100,000, the gap narrows further."

        This also does not mention that women generally choose more stable jobs than men as they can reenter the job market of for example of a grade school teacher as opposed to a high tech job.

        Regarding the Wikipedia article :

        Maternity leave
        Further information: Parental leave

        The economic risk and resulting costs of a woman possibly leaving jobs for a period of time or indefinitely to nurse a baby is cited by many to be a reason why women are less common in the higher paying occupations such as CEO positions and upper management[citation needed]. It is much easier for a man to be hired in these higher prestige jobs than to risk losing a female job holder.[citation needed] Thomas Sowell argued in his 1984 book Civil Rights that most of pay gap is based on marital status, not a "glass ceiling" discrimination. Earnings for men and women of the same basic description (education, jobs, hours worked, marital status) were essentially equal. That result would not be predicted under explanatory theories of "sexism".[88]
        • Jul 30 2012: Bloomberg Businessweek July 30-August 5, 2012 THE PANTSUIT SISTERHOOD "Today financial services has the biggest gender wage gap of any profession-55 cents to 62 cents for every $1.00 made by men, compared to 77 cents on average."
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        Jul 29 2012: "However, it can be seen as a symptom of the unequal contributions made by each partner to child raising. Cathy Young cites men's and fathers' rights activists who contend that women do not allow men to take on paternal and domestic responsibilities.[89] Many Western countries have some form of paternity leave to attempt to level the playing field in this regard. However, even in relatively gender-equal countries like Sweden, where parents are given 16 months of paid parental leave irrespective of gender, fathers take on average only 20% of the 16 months of paid parental and choose to transfer their days to their partner.[90][91] In addition to maternity leave, Walter Block and Walter E. Williams have argued that marriage in and of itself, not maternity leave, in general will leave females with more household labor than the males.[citation needed] The Bureau of Labor Statistics found that married women earn 75.5% as much as married men while women who have never married earn 94.2% of their unmarried male counterparts' earnings.[92]

        One study estimated that 10% of the convergence of the gender gap in the 1980s and 30% in the 1990s can be accounted for by the increasing availability of contraceptives.[93]"

        Let me conclude that once again the source of your ire or conflict is someone who stands to gain by creating this conflict.
        • Jul 30 2012: Women are sexually harassed in the military and in other work place situations. Female babies are murdered because they are female in China, India and other countries. Female children are murdered in Afghanistan for going to school. I wonder why you choose to ignore the reality of the obvious discrimination against women in the market place, in religions and in the greater society. I wonder what you think you are gaining by denying this particular fact of life.
        • Jul 30 2012: Keep talking to yourself and listening to yourself. You are obviously ignoring the reality of the gender inequality issue. Therefore, you are participating in causing the continuation of the problem. Your choice. Bye.
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        Jul 30 2012: In other countries I said I don't know anything about this other than it is obviously true.

        Regarding your assertions that there is discrimination in the market place I have answered this, I'm not ignoring this I'm pointing out that is not true.

        I answered all of you assertions with your own links for the most part. I'm not ignoring anything.
        • Jul 30 2012: Bloomberg Businessweek July 30-August 5, 2012 THE PANTSUIT SISTERHOOD "Today financial services has the biggest gender wage gap of any profession-55 cents to 62 cents for every $1.00 made by men, compared to 77 cents on average."

          It's a free country, pat. It's okay that you are wrong about this. Maybe you are right about some other belief of yours. Yeah, you could be right about something.
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        Jul 31 2012: Between you and Debra I'm wrong about everything.

        Except I'm correct regarding this. Lets just agree to disagree.
        • Jul 31 2012: I doubt that you are wrong about everything, but you are certainly wrong on this topic. Go do your own research AFTER you have pried open your mind. I wonder why the President of Iran declines to acknowledge that the Holocast happened, that between 7 and 10 million human beings were murdered by other human beings in Europe during the 1930s and 1940s. Maybe you can explain the motivation of the President of Iran refusing to acknowledge this historical fact. There are many people, books, magazines, newspapers, academic research reports, museums and many forms of documentation regarding the Holocaust in Europe. Seems odd that this man says it did not happen. I wonder why he would say this did not happen, when I think, even you would acknowledge that it did happen. I think truth is the most important thing we human beings have for any communication worth making. Without truth, people become irrational and insane....and pass that on to other human beings.
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        Jul 31 2012: The post I made 1 day ago stated that I don't doubt there is discrimination in other parts of the world obviously there is.

        But not in this country.

        I have stated before that the reason for this meme, this conflict is that it is created by those who would benefit from its existence, I.E. they sell books or have TV shows or organizations.

        Once again lets agree to disagree.

        I will give you the last word.
        • Jul 31 2012: You are sooooooooooo wrong about this country. Obviously, you are not a woman. Perhaps you should talk to a random sample of women and ask them about their experiences within the job market, their religious institutions and throughout the rest of our society. I wonder why you choose to keep your good head stuck in the sand. You are missing some important portions of reality that, if you knew about, could enhance your life and increase your effectiveness in accomplishing your positive goals.