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When Libertarians and Hippies realize they are the exact same group, who want the exact same thing, the world will change for the better.
I am talking of course, about a voluntary society. A naive, but beautiful concept that almost every intellectual on earth has tried to encourage us to imagine.
Hippies, are, generally, naive, and stupid enough to believe, "That's what democracy is"... Libertarians are often cynical, and emotionless enough to suggest, "That is what democracy could never be".
Why is this so important? I don't think there is anyone in America who truly believe the republican, or democratic parties can actually solve any of our problems... I think half of us, are secretly hippies, who hate libertarians, so we vote democrat. The other half, are secretly libertarians, and they hate hippies, so they vote republican.
I know this is a broad over generalization, and there are still quite a few hard line party hacks out there... but, mostly, I think those are just the people on TV. I think our politicians, are republicans and democrats, but our people are pretty sick of both of them... They just hate hippies, or libertarians.
What do hippies want? A voluntary society, where we all chip in to help the less fortunate, and encourage the growth of non profits, and for profit corporations at the local level. One in which we don't use force to punish non violent crimes. One in which we don't torture. One in which we don't declare war without reason. One in which police don't beat people for exercising freedom of speech... or religion.
Isn't this what libertarians want? The only real difference, is that they want it to all be non profit, and for profit corporations, no tax by force, no actual government. This infuriates hippies because they love space... That's it, hippies love NASA, and to be fair public education, for creating NASA engineers. When you remind them it's taxed for at the point of a gun however, they start to favor non profit NASA.
We all want our government, to be our countries largest not for profit corporation. We can get there if we stop hating each other.
Ray Givler 20+
It all comes down to two points:
- Property rights. Either you believe in them or you don't (or you don't understand). Watch youtube's
The Philosophy of Liberty: Property and ...:Plunder. If those don't make sense you, you are unreachable because you believe that the government partially owns you. That's enslavement and should make the hairs bristle on the back of the neck of any hippie (or TED viewer).
- Secondly, the question is whether government is the best, most effective means of executing help (or any other service). Think Amtrak. Think FEMA. Think the USPS. Is this really even debatable?
So, if you really want to help people, seek support voluntarily (don't extract the money by force - it's a rights violation), and keep the government out of it.
- Hippies viewed as stoners? No. A libertarian doesn't even care if a hippie is a stoner. We waste too much money as a society treating a public health problem (drugs) as a crime.
- The Tea Party started as a Classical Liberalism. If you count yourself a liberal, I'd encourage you to investigate what Classical Liberalism is, and why/how that Liberalism has come to be redefined (hint: you are being manipulated). The Tea Party was hijacked by RINOs. It's now dead, but never had anything to do with militarism or crony capitalism.
- I fail to see the point in not voting. Then the one guy who wants to control you can vote himself into office.
- Libertarians don't want government to be the largest non-profit. We would hope it would be smaller than some.
- Libertarians know big government is essential for big business/corporatism.
- Take the smallest political quiz
David Hamilton 50+
Most hardcore hippies that act as communists... just want out of crony capitalism, and they'll try anything at this point. It's not a smart philosophy, but it is rooted, in the same frustrations libertarians have. It's an over reaction. I think libertarians who are dead set on completetly ending public education have a similar problem. What we have is bad, but can't we make something better than rampant illiteracy, especially since we've already let this experiment take so much money for so long... To me that's a tangential issue that distracts us though.
The big problem I have with hardcore libertarians, would be that I believe in what I call "rational collective investment". I think if we voted on where our tax dollars went, NASA would be huge, and we'd have the supercollider in Texas... but I think we'd do it without forcing people who don't like Nasa to contribute. I know a lot of nerds down to put 2 cents of their paycheck into space... Right now we put half of one.
Totally agree with your view of The Tea Party, there was a fantastic episode of The Newsroom about it... but it's gone religious and neocon.
I vote but I try to raise the percentage of third party candidates in my district, unless someone in the traditional parties is actually putting out a new and interesting platform. I really can't stand either of them now, but i think voting is important, and I try to do enough research not to vote for total nutjobs.
A series of nonprofits that perform for the public good... That's what I meant, not 1 huge one.
Barry Palmer 50+
I hope one day the hippies and libertarians, and all of the other folks whose pockets are getting picked, can get together to kick out the lackeys of the rich and form a government that governs instead of just providing a stage for the next election.
peter lindsay 30+
Mark Meijer 100+
David Hamilton 50+
My main point was to convey, how both groups, libertarians, and hippies, are most adamant about decreasing government sponsorship of corporations, reducing the military industrial complex, and encouraging local small business. Both groups are very open minded on civil liberties, and very close minded to the idea that banks, the fed, or a large government stimulus can save our economy. Both groups believe that the concept of pre emptive warfare makes no sense.
Both are opposed to the war on drugs.
Both are pro gay marriage.
Abortion, is realy the only key issue, they disagree on. Many libertarians believe a fetus is a person with rights...
If they could get past that, they could create a powerful unifying platform with the power to appeal to a broad swathe of people. The ultra left and ultra right, are both right... it's the middle that sucks.
It's the fighting that sucks. That's how the really screwed up people take power.
Steve Soliz
They're are both saying the same things in large measure. But when I point this out to either group, they balk. They revert to tribalism and revert back to stereotypical insults of the other group. Even though both groups when asked, see themselves way outside of the mainstream of Dem/GOP politics, when I point out that they have much in common, they revert to the propaganda spread by the respective mainstream parties in order to describe each other. Very unproductive. Or, they are so dogmatic about micro issues that they don't want to find common ground on macro issues. One the posters on this thread fits this description.
David Hamilton 50+
What's the quintessential hippie? A commune. Someone who goes off into the woods to do everything for themselves, without the influence of evil governments or corporations.
What's the quintessential libertarian? A compound. Friends and family are protected from an unstable and evil government.
"Turn on, tune in, drop out" Timothy Leary
"We are on strike, we, the men of the mind" Ayn Rand
Mark Meijer 100+
Then why do you still vote and feed the machine?
David Hamilton 50+
Mark Meijer 100+
It can't be this: "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
Because you already know the government you vote in does not approximate the government you want.
It can't be this: "Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in."
Because what you're saying in this conversation is that all the lizards are wrong (i.e. can't actually solve your problems), it doesn't matter which one gets in.
It can't be this: "Some people say that the lizards are the best thing that ever happenned to them," he said. "They're completely wrong of course, completely and utterly wrong, but someone's got to say it."
Because you don't consider those lizards the best thing that ever happened to you, and you're saying it here in this conversation.
So what is it, your reason for voting?
David Hamilton 50+
Most people in America believe that because this is a democracy, and we all voted for these representatives... It must not be as bad as someone like me suggests.
Down a few lines in this conversation you will see a man who calls himself a libertarian, a party of non lizards... I am a libertarian. I am going to vote the libertarian non lizard candidate. He thinks that makes me a socialist, because that takes a vote away from Romney... A lizard. In other words "If I didn't vote for a lizard, the wrong lizard might get in".
I don't consider the lizards the best thing that ever happened to us... but many people say that the republicans... or the democrats... are the best thing that have ever happened to us... They're both wrong of course, completely and utterly wrong... but someone's got to say it, because that's what advertisers pay the news for.
I will admit that I did vote for Barack Obama, but that was partially for the historical importance of electing the nations first black president... and, I got suckered in by the whole "I will go line by line through the federal budget and eliminate wasteful spending"... Mostly though, I just thought, and still think the guy is a decent figurehead, and the president is basically a Ken doll anyway.
I have no intention of voting for the lizards again any time soon.
David Hamilton 50+
http://www.vice.com/read/the-kids-are-all-libertarians
Gail . 50+
I do not want my goveernment to be a non-profit corpration. I want the smallest government possible - just like the connstituion called for before we lost our constitutional republic in a coup d'etat conducted by bansters & the wealth-class, using the Supreme Court as their proxy. If it weren't for that coup, you wouldn't even have been able to conceive your question.
I only disagree when it comes to land ownership, but society isn't ready to hear my views on that yet.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
i can't wait
pat gilbert 50+
How is it that Libertarians span from the likes of Ron Paul / John Stossel to Noam Chomsky. Maybe the definition of Libertarian is misunderstood?
Krisztián Pintér 200+
David Hamilton 50+
Just replace small government, with small non profit. Again, to me, this is the subtle difference between hippies and libertarians. Hippies are down for 10% tax to do good things, ie small government. Libertarians want all government contribution to come by choice, which would be more similar to a non profit.
Small government is fine, but it is not what you are describing. A small government takes your money at the point of a gun. A small charity organization, you choose to donate to, does not. Ie nerds can donate to NASA. That's what I mean by it being run like a non profit, no force.
I don't mean it has to re envision itself as a hippy daisy charity : p
Kent Johnson
David Hamilton 50+
That's my point. The hippies, are not socialist. They are sick of American Imperialism, and they want to return to freedom and capitalism. Right wing morons, have convinced you that they do not, so you hate hippies...
That's what people in power want. They want to convince you that hippies and libertarians are mortal enemies. They want you to hate people, who believe the exact same thing as you, so that you don't talk to them, work together, and attack leadership... the real enemy.
pat gilbert 50+
David Hamilton 50+
Lawren Jones 10+
pat gilbert 50+
David Hamilton 50+
I don't understand how anyone ever voted for Romney in the primary. If I was a republican I'd be embarassed. I don't understand how republicans voted for anyone other than Ron Paul though. He's the only one who made sense.
Sorry, Romneycare is the basis for Obamacare, and Romney is way too anti gay, and anti family planning for me. Also he's a chicken hawk... He would never fight for this country, but he is certain we need to get involved in more wars. If America elects Mitt Romney president, it will be another 8 years of George W Bush, and all the smart people are just going to start leaving the country.
We're already being brain drained by CERN.
pat gilbert 50+
David Hamilton 50+
Gail . 50+
Our economic model, that most find offensive, takes us farther and farther away from any possibility of our working together. It's corrupt. It is supported by war, crime&punishment, illness & injury, extreme poverty, and especially diseducation (in order to prevent people from seeing that what they call "freedom" is really slavery.
David Hamilton 50+
Who funds Monsanto? The government, it changes the law every time Monsanto breaks the law.
Who funds the oil companies? Government oil subsidies. What do the oil companies use that subsidy money for? To buy green technology patents and burn them.
Who funded Wal Marts enormous expansion, which destroyed a whole bunch of middle class general store jobs? The Fed... at 0% interest. Government sponsored socialism.
Who funds factory farms and Mcdonalds? Subsidies and the fed.
Capitalism has never been our problem... Socialism. The government being used to sponsor the worst corporations we have, is destroying our country. It has nothing to do with capitalism.
David Hamilton 50+
peter lindsay 30+
pat gilbert 50+
peter lindsay 30+
pat gilbert 50+
peter lindsay 30+
pat gilbert 50+
peter lindsay 30+
pat gilbert 50+
peter lindsay 30+
pat gilbert 50+
peter lindsay 30+
David Hamilton 50+
It is unacceptable how many Americans are in jail for non violent crimes. It is unacceptable that flying killer robots judge all military aged men enemy combatants. It is unacceptable that flying killer robots now monitor American private homes without warrants. It is unacceptable that we torture.
The only people who don't agree to these basic principles are the 1000 or so sociopathic politicians we have... imho.
Richard Long
Stewart Gault 30+
David Hamilton 50+
What I believe every human being on earth wants, is a government that is spending their money so wisely, that there is no need for a violent enforcement of the tax code. There is no country on earth where money is being spent that wisely, and that is why the code must be enforced with police, and irs agents.
If a government was run as an efficient charity organization for the legitimate benefit of the people... There would be very little objection to taxes from either group.
I think at their core however both philosophies simply boil down to "I have a right to live my life, and make my own choices in it. You do not have a right to spend my money being violent".
Joseph Bailey
http://www.ted.com/conversations/12638/a_market_based_tax_system.html
Krisztián Pintér 200+
"Libertarians are often cynical, and emotionless"
if you find any, and i mean any data, reasoning, evidence or anything to support that statement, i eat my hat with a fork and a knife in public.
David Hamilton 50+
You see Krisztian, sometimes when someone makes a statement they use a device called a comma... and that denotes that there is more coming, and that the statement is not yet finished. A period shows that a sentence has come to an end.
I said "Libertarians are often cynical, and emotionless enough to suggest, "That is what democracy could never be". Suggesting that while libertarians have supreme confidence in the intelligence of consumers... they have absolutely no faith in the intelligence of voters in a democracy, which is cynical, and emotionless. It is based in the idea that people are too stupid to govern themselves. There is evidence to support this theory, but it is still a cynical theory, and in that manner libertarians are cynical. Not in every manner.
Good try though, you are almost as good at parsing statements as the American news media, you would be a fine propaghandist... You don't even mention that I called hippies naive and stupid... but obviously the only insulting part of my rant was about libertarians.
You can construct a better argument than this you big teddy bear American hippy, you : p
Krisztián Pintér 200+
David Hamilton 50+
Talk to many libertarians, especially in America, and they will tell you that democracy is incapable of being reformed in a way that moves us towards a voluntary society. Ron Paul is the exception... Not the rule. I said often... not always, I can support that.
This is the illusionairy conflict I am talking about. Not between all hippies and all libertarians, but between many. I think you and I are both for a voluntary society ultimately, are we not?
I am however pretty confident you consider me a hippy, hence the joke at the end... I would like to suggest that many "hippies" in America, are secretly libertarians, who just hope the majority is going to wake up. Lots of libertarians, in America, secretly worry, that private companies will boldly go where hundreds have gone before, ie low earth orbit, but a huge public coffer, would be a much more efficient tool for getting us to mars... ie NASA.
I admitted it was a broad generalization about certain members of the different groups... I am not trying to suggest all members... I will make the bold assertion, that in California, New York, and the populated United States, there are a lot more hippies and libertarians, than register green or libertarian... They choose the lesser of 2 evils, and we should probably stop.
I imagine Austria has a similar conflict, though your hippies are a bit more existentialist from what i'm told... and that has to be frustrating for an economist, lol.
pat gilbert 50+
Thanks for the genuine LOL.
You will have to forgive David he is a product of the U.S. education system. By the way David Krisztián is from Hungary.
David
The hippies I know are mostly dead from drug overdoses.
I have been a registered Libertarian for 35 years. In a nut shell we espouse to civil liberty. Volunteerism has nothing to do with it although there is nothing wrong with that and I do it myself from time to time and that doesn't even include learn-in economically illiterate TEDsters.
David Hamilton 50+
I apologize for confusing you as Austrian. Must be because of the economics. Kokesh, Ron Paul, and a boat load of other libertarians, eventually see the government becoming something that does not need to be imposed on people through force. That is a voluntary society. Whether or not people volunteer is up to them, but with less of their resources being diverted to murder, it is likely that they will have more free time to volunteer.
I love how both of you completely ignore my core point, because you know it's true, and you have an irrational hatred of hippies, so you don't want to accept that it's true. Hippies believe in a society that does not impose its will by force. Libertarians believe in a society that does not impose it's will by force... Deal with it.
You're both so caught up in believing that you're right, and everyone else is wrong, that you forget what you actually believe in... It really is quite funny.
pat gilbert 50+
An economics professor at a local college made a statement that he had never failed a single student before, but had recently failed an entire class. That class had insisted that Obama’s socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer.
The professor then said, “OK, we will have an experiment in this class on Obama’s plan”. All grades will be averaged and everyone will receive the same grade so no one will fail and no one will receive an A…. (substituting grades for dollars – something closer to home and more readily understood by all).
After the first test, the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. As the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too so they studied little.
The second test average was a D! No one was happy.
When the 3rd test rolled around, the average was an F.
As the tests proceeded, the scores never increased as bickering, blame and name-calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for the benefit of anyone else.
To their great surprise, ALL FAILED and the professor told them that socialism would also ultimately fail because when the reward is great, the effort to succeed is great, but when government takes all the reward away, no one will try or want to succeed.
It could not be any simpler than that.
There are five morals to this story:
1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.
2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
pat gilbert 50+
5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.
Richard Long