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Abdelhakim DAHMANI

Student,

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Can religion be a science?

You be with me if I say, the human mind does not understand beyond the borders of the known universe?. then, this universe is expanding, this expansion implies that there is another universe including the first, but this is not affordable by humans, exactly by his spirit, and this system is connected in all, the first up to N universe, this relationship is a general law, we can not understand that relations with the spirit human (It is not affordable). Then, we can not know the best way of life that if you have a religion. this religion (science), it must come from one side of all founder, then in this way, this is a science and religion at the same time. religion, because it requires belief. and a science, because it is in the general equation of the reality of all the "universes". thank you :).

Topics: religion sciences
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    Jun 29 2012: A big NO. Religion conflicts with the facts of easily proven science way to much. For example, evolution can be proven simply by looking at the fossil record, but pez head creationists remain stubborn and don't look at the evidence. Religion was something ancient people CAME UP WITH in order to explain natural phenomena because the science wasn't there at the time. Now that we have science, religion is an awfully cowardly way to explain things. I've probably just started an argument.
    • Jul 11 2012: heeey kevin ,,, the concept religion to simplify science is wrong !! as religion have its concepts and its Content which is differ than scince ,, religion from our god (ALLAH) who creat us !! we here in the earth to Reconstruct and learn and enjoy the things that Allaah has permitted us, and we also stay away from things that are forbidden by God in order to win paradise, which God prepared for us this is the base of life, which does take a good thing good thing and bad thing that does take the bad result
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        Jul 11 2012: This is why I'm an atheist, the idea of god giving permission just seemed to ruin any idea of free will that could ever exist.
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        Jul 11 2012: dina muhamed, As long as you are not a jerk to me about this I won't be a jerk. I will respect your beliefs, but I don't think it makes sense to say a god created the universe. Let me quote the great Carl Sagan. "What was before creation? If god created the universe, where did god come from? Why not save a step and say this is un- answerable. Or say god always existed, or save yet another step and say the universe always existed, that there is no need for a creation." ~Carl Sagan. Many creationists have never studied physics at all and thus can't fight a theism vs. atheist dual. In fact, the only way theists can fight an atheist is by actually studying physics. It also goes the other way around. I have studied physics(though I haven't learned everything but quite a bit). Why do I say this? Because the secrets of the universe origins and workings lye in the laws of physics. I don't think the theism vs. atheism war will go on for much longer anyways. Religion is dying in the mainstream world and that is a great thing.
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        Jul 15 2012: Dina it's quite funny to me the idea of, we have free will, why? Well god makes us have it. I'm not saying it's what you said is funny or that your first statement of belief but just pointing out a philosophical question which is "I think we have free will because we have no option not to have it" Which is paradoxical but anyway.
        Now firstly, our brains and thoughts are much much better explained in terms of evolution and natural selection instead of god given, it's just a fact, because from your side you then need evidence of a god and you're side is lacking.
        Now you touched on a great point, Allah will let you know when you're wrong and boy o boy does he, punishment for eternity for not believing in something which left no evidence or any good reason to believe in it in the first place. That's evil to me. Then there's this idea that your god can't be wrong, i.e divine command which is even more evil. Then I've debated with someone on another thread who said about the Quran having many translations. Well this is riddled with paradoxes. Which translation do you follow? Kill the infidels or not? Treat your wife as a second class citizen or not? Allow yourself to dance or not? Throw battery acid in your daughter's face for getting raped or not? There are countless evils in the book you love with morals which could be corrected by a 5 year old in some places.
        And finally as I stated earlier, there is no choice in religion. It's believe and live or don't and suffer eternally. This may seem like people have a choice but it's not. Suppose we knew for certain hell existed, no one would want to go so everyone would believe, it removes the choice. And also living by a set of rules set out in a 7th century book further reduces the idea of any free will, have you considered that maybe the book may be wrong and not the person disagreeing with the book.
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        Jul 15 2012: Sorry for jumping in here Kevin but I think I ought to. Firstly Dina we don't believe everything has to be created by somebody or someone else and I'm going to paste a rather long explanation of why this is so to this conversation.
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        Jul 15 2012: Firstly I have to say I don't know your full context of current beliefs, but if the site you provided is what you base it on then this will be useful, if you don't totally agree with the site then what I'm going to say is still worthwhile and should be said a lot more often.
        This will be rather summary as it's hard to fit 13.72 billion years into a conversation.
        The exact origin of the universe can not be known for certain, this has to be stated, but there are current scientific theories which would give exceptionally good insights into how it could have happened. This delves into quantum mechanics. We start off with absolutely empty space, this space still has weight/ energy though (I'll explain why later), and as long as something has energy or weight, it can create something. All that is required for absolutely nothing to become everything is what is known as a quantum flux, a quick periodic change in a quantum state can create positive energy which hence leads to the generation of particles. How is this possible? The entire energy of the universe equals 0, if you add up all the energy of the cosmos and subtract gravity, you get 0. Hence it doesn't take a huge step of belief to think that nothing can create something because there is still the same amount of energy as there was at the start of the universe. Information here from Stephen Hawking's Grand Design and Lawrence Krauss's Something from Nothing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo also another interesting fact to be noted, most of the mass of a proton/ neutron is actually contained within the empty space between the quarks and 99% of an atom is made from nothing. The physical laws of the universe are nothing special, we are most likely just one universe super imposed on top of an almost infinite number or universes all existing at the same time. This sounds absurd right, but a famous experiment known as the double slit experiment makes it easier to grasp, continued in next comment.
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        Jul 15 2012: In the double slit experiment scientists fired an electron at a wall with a sheet with two slits in the way of the electron and the wall. Watch this, it explains it extremely well, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc Now what does this mean? It means that the electron MUST take every single possible route from A to B that it possibly can, i.e it exists almost everywhere at the same time. This is the only way in which it is possible for the electron to interfere with itself and produce the interrupted, wave like pattern. This applies to the universe in that, we could just be one version of the universe going on it's many paths that it could possibly take, this makes the anthropic principle invalid, as it would explain that it is only mere coincidence that we are in this universe, and life is in this universe because this was one of the paths in which life did evolve.
        Now the big bang is incorporated into the scheme of things. The universe is not only expanding but it's accelerating, evidence of this comes from the red shift and the cosmic microwave background radiation left over from the beginning of the universe, which as a matter of fact was predicted to exist and at the correct temperature before it was even observed.
        The site mentioned how does a lung work without air, this totally disregards science's explanation.
        There would be slight imperfections in the early cosmos, so as that gravity could pull particles together. Eventually enough particles were pulled together, under extreme heat and pressure these particles started to fuse together, it is now known as nuclear fusion and this is how stars are born. Within the cores of stars atoms of hydrogen, helium and lithium all fuse together to form the heavier elements was see today such as carbon and oxygen all the way to uranium. These stars then explode when they run out of fuel as they can no longer maintain the heat required to overcome the gravity of their own star, continued next post.
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        Jul 15 2012: The star then has two options, 1) explode or explode and contract or 2) form a black hole. This is how past suns gave rise to our solar system. On a side note, by working out the density of stars and their gravitational pull, we've learnt that it takes 1 million years for light to get from the core of the sun to the outside then 8 minutes from the outside to Earth, this shoots the 6 day creation dead in the water, it should also be mentioned that 13.72 billion years is arrived at by rewinding the universe until all galaxies were touching one another in a singularity.
        Now gravity does some more work and planets are formed, but we'll skip the exact geography and get to life forming, abiogenesis is our best hypothesis, though not yet proven it does seem promising. The Miller Urey experiment although not confirming abiogenesis it did show how amino acids can form from primordial Earth conditions.
        So now we have the building blocks of life, some may theorise that life originated from 1 species of bacteria but I say there would be more, I recently added this onto TED as an idea. Note: plants came first, without plants all the oxygen would either be trapped in water or carbon dioxide. And also DNA was not the first thing to cause life, most likely it was RNA or a more primitive form.
        Evolution is rather simple in terms to explain, it is the change in genes over time. This has been proven to happen in the forms of natural selection and mutations and a few other methods but I currently forget them. The evidence for this is seen within our genome and our close relationship to chimps and our relation to every living thing even turnips. There is further evidence in the fossil record, especially in the human evolution side of things. I can't delve into too many examples but firstly, bacteria, we observe them evolving in the lab and they are now evolving to be immune to anti biotics. Continued
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        Jul 15 2012: I hate myself for forgetting the exact name of the lizard but there was one species introduced to a new island where it had never lived and within 50 years had started developing a larger head and flatter teeth and stronger jaw muscles to maximize on it's new diet of leaves. A fruit fly was made to speciate simply by feeding the same species different foods and not letting them interbreed and then eventually letting them breed to discover they no longer could and were then two different species. The evolution of the human ear is well documented from the jaws of early reptiles. If you want me to comment on the mechanisms of natural selection let me know but basically it is nature selecting the species best adapted to survive in it's surroundings. I can give more experiments if you want but for now I refer you to Richard Dawkins Greatest Show on Earth and this http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0199230846/ also just youtube anything I've said and there's probably a talk on it somewhere. I was a little scarce on the evolution because I'm still reading my way through books but can give more information if you want.
        But basically that's how science says we got here, everything stated above was arrived at from observations, evidence, tests, results.
        So in conclusion, believe in God if you want, I'm fine with that, but please stay up to date with science, and I'm not talking to you Omer as you may already know all of this but there are others who need to read this too.
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        Jul 18 2012: Dina your carpenter analogy made no sense, how on Earth does it get around the fact that the universe can and does exist by itself?
        And if we're made by a god it did a horrible job, I could redesign humans in a heartbeat. This to me makes it either impotent or evil.
        And if you use your brain Dina and evaluate all evidence, there is no evidence that there is a god, only evidence that the universe doesn't need one.
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        Jul 18 2012: Right I'm not exactly understanding you, what is it about what I'm saying your not getting.
        is it the beginning of the universe?
        Abigenesis i.e start of life
        Or evolution?
        And they tie together like so, universe starts, stars make heavy elements, star explodes, gravity makes new solar system, earth is primitive and very different from now. Amino acids form and eventually form self replicating pairs, evolution begins. We evolve for 3.5 billion years until today and we now have brains which can reason.
        • Jul 18 2012: stewart,,, i know that,, i know the reason of the universial existance ,,, i know all of thaT ,,, our god craet every thing by another thing ,,, as the world not be exist until the explotion ,, you not be in the world until your mother married and get you ,, and also iam here in the world as result my father and mather get me ,, there a reason for every thing ,, god creat us and creat the world and creat every thing ,,
          stewart i was muslima and elhamdoullah still muslima ,, but iam thinking in atheist for afew monthes ,, but then i found my live without any meaning !! stewart you are an intelligent young man ,,, try to read about every thing ,, just know why those people belive in this creencias and ethics ,,
          iam happy to talk to you :) iam Dina from egypt ::)
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          Jul 18 2012: OK, I just got an email saying that this Dina lady responded to me but I can't find the damn message. It's literally not here.
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          Jul 19 2012: Seems dina knows all the answers. Must have read them in a book.

          Got to love absolute certainty without any compelling evidence.
      • Jul 18 2012: Assalamunaleykum.
        Are you aware of what you are doing?I know Cihad is one of the best good deeds in islam but be careful!Why are you trying to prove Allah for them?Do you like them too much?You can spend your time to prove Allah for yourself.And a warning;This the wrong time to talk about Allah with them and to prove Allah for them. And know this, you cant prove Allah to them,you can prove for me but not them.Even if you bring a picture or video of Allah (of course impposible) , they will not believe, they will find a wrong wtih it in a detail.And this can be very damageful if you try to prove Allah in wrong time.May be there would be a possiblity but please be careful and dont kill it.And Allah says some of them look at this beautiful world and get close me but some of them get away from me.Just keep silience.And think if you may have proved Allah to them clearly,would they gain the heaven?they didnt do anything even didnt spend any energy to find Allah but found and will go to heaven,is it fair?just wait for Allah set a curiosity , a feeling of need into their hearts, then they will search for Allah or a god , then maybe you can be a reason of their seeing the light adventure.Except they and Allah, no one can prove Allah to them.If you want to cure someone's sipiritual diseases, firstly be calm,learn the disease,know the patient,chose the correct medicine, wait for the suitable time!! Did you see any doctor who suddenly enters a house (or try to enter) then say I am a doctor,you are sick, I will recover you, dont panic, listen believe and obey me! or says I am a guester from god. They will laugh at you or try to beat you.They will not trust you and listen you carefully to understand what you say.If you want cihad, tell Allah I want, And wait for a paitent to come you!
        • Jul 18 2012: walalikom elsalm warahmt allah w barkato :)
          happy ramdan :)
          كل سنة وانت طيب
          okai i get you :) but just try ,, ohhh how is that ?!! how they live with out allah !?!
          okaii omar :)
          happy to talk to you :) and thanks for your advice :) :)
          iam dina from egypt :)
        • Jul 18 2012: you mean GEHAD ,,,,,, CIHAD !! جهاد :D
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          Jul 19 2012: Omer you could prove Allah to me if there was proof beyond assuming your holy book was infallible.

          If your beliefs don't stand up to critical thinking, and reason unpacking fallacies and unsubstantiated beliefs then .........well that's up to you and none of my business.

          I live in a predominantly Christian country so it is very unlikely I will bump into anything that will direct me to Allah or Hinduism or Buddhism or Confucianism etc.

          I suggest your beliefs have a lot to do with where and when you were born. Before 600 CE/1300 CE you might have been pagans (Egypt) or East orthodox Christian (Turkey)..

          Before 2000 years some other gods I guess.

          10,000 years ago other gods

          30,000 years ago maybe the Earth Mother or shamanism

          3 million years ago there were not even modern humans.

          5 billion years ago no life on earth

          So I'm open to any compelling argument or evidence. I used to be a born again Christian and figured out that was wrong.

          But I agree you are probably wasting your time not because of a lack of an open mind but that the arguments for Islam are variations of the same themes of different theist views and I haven't heard or seen anything convincing yet.

          I support freedom of and from religion so respect your right to follow Islam even if I think it is not substantially different to many other cultural religious beliefs when it comes to truth but with potential for good and bad just like all humans.
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        Jul 18 2012: So Dina your biggest reason for believing in Allah is the idea that everything has a purpose or everything needs a creator. Well firstly not everything needs a creator.
        And this is incredible to me, this human glitch that is the idea that without god suddenly there is no purpose to anything. It just doesn't make sense. If there's no god nothing changes for humanity, we still have the purpose to survive and to flourish. Also evolution has drummed into us the social aspect of looking after one another. And why does everything to you have to have a purpose? I think it's much more beautiful that things can just exist and happen and not need a reason. To me the idea that galaxies and the rings of Saturn are the product of physics and not shaping by a god, it makes it so much more beautiful and inspiring.
        http://science.memebase.com/2012/07/16/funny-science-news-experiments-memes-nope-not-enough/ Like this sums up what you're still left with without a god.
        Also if this is part of a plan, god is either incompetent or evil.
        • Jul 18 2012: STEWAR srry but i finish my speech ,, have fun with your belives
          i tell you i know each word you told me and each word you will tell me ,, i read all of this sources which consider no god ,, but finally elhamdoullah iam muslim girl and love allah

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