dany masado

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can we reform the discussion surrounding gender inequality?

As of late, the gender discussion seems to dominate the mainstream discussion on social justice. The alarming trend that I have noticed is that it has become a real battle of the sexes where one side accuses the other of causing its demise, which means any progress for one gender is seen as a loss for the other. I am proposing that we start to reframe the gender debate in a way where we can honestly address issues faced by men without saying "men just don't have as bad", in a way where we can address female issues without saying "women complain too much, get over it.
We must remember that progress in gender justice is (or should be) a benefit for all not a sum zero battle. Often, we get caught up if tallying up a score on who has it worse, rather than finding ways to address issues for both sides, simultaneously.
What will you tell your sons or your daughters when they come to you for advice?

  • Jul 5 2012: Ultimately we can not solve gender issues together. Empathy is a subjective supposition. I believe we (male and female) need to find our true self through determined exploration of past indiscretions. We have all suffered and are shadows of the path we imagined for ourselves. I think rather than trying to adjust our behaviour to intellectual precepts, we need to find truth in our own journey before we can hope to be sensitive to the tribulations of others.
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    Jul 4 2012: And you, Rhona, haven't responded to a single point I have made. You have carried on with your own agenda according to what you perceive, or know. How are we different? Please explain...how do you tell a businessman or businesswoman who just doesn't have the money, that they have to pay a person for 4 months for producing nothing? How do you do that? Is it okay for a French farmer to pay a Moroccan woman correspondingly more for peeling 3 times more garlic than a European in the same time? If so, is it ok to pay a man 33% more than a woman for bringing 3 tonnes of coal to the surface in the same time as a woman brings 2 tonnes to the surface?
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    Jun 26 2012: I must remind you all that the purpose of this discussion is not create another battle of the sexes about the percentage of women represented in the top positions of companies or how many of them graduate from college with science degrees. This conversation aims to encourage us all to reframe the gender discussion, to truly understand how one gender's problem is not separated from the other, to accept that encouraging the success of women doesn't mean wishing the demise of men, to accept that men too are objectified, men too are raped and acknowledging that does undermine the issues faced by women.

    All in all, my hope is that we can all do better! and we must do better!!!! redefine the way you look at gender equality
  • Jul 4 2012: I have not read all comments so forgive me if I reiterate part of previous discussion but I would ask all of you under 40 to realize the older u get the more you see numerous ways in which inequality exists in subtle and insidious ways in U S society. It pains me to know that. No matter how much I do it will never be appreciated or respected in the way I would wish. Until we start really having men expected to truly consider egalitarian relationships I think women will be their own worst enemies in this world. It will take both genders to truly change and assist each other on multiple levels and not just financial
  • Jul 4 2012: If one cannot understand and accept the concept of wholeness within, then they are not able to reflect this acceptance outward. I believe for true change to occur, it begins with everyone individual understanding and accepting unity, as opposed to separateness. When one accepts and loves themselves this loving, accepting energy is carry forth from them. There are always going to be those who are not ready to accept this, that is OK. However, those who do, they must be the one to raise their voices for love, and acceptance of all; unity. Does this make sense?
    • Jul 5 2012: It makes perfect sense except for one part,

      "There are always going to be those who are not ready to accept this, that is OK."

      The whole feminist movement is about saying that this is not OK. Injustice is not OK.
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        Jul 5 2012: Barry, most of us are educated too and of course we can answer the points in isolation but integrting the information and allowing it to speak in proportion to the issues involved takes more than a flippant confidence.
      • Jul 5 2012: I am not powerful enough to control others thoughts, nor do I want to. I Accept all. My purpose is to stand in my power and speak my truth, if my truth resonates with someone else this is great but not my purpose. My purpose is to connect to my heart and be true to myself and perhaps empower others through my process. In other words, by setting and example of self empowerment, speak from a space of acceptance,respect and honor. I feel it is a more powerful position, than trying to force,control, manipulate.....
  • Jun 29 2012: Just some thoughts

    women have feminity and have it well defined. What is needed is for a redefinition of masculinity.

    Kids are being taught that women are as capable and intellegent as them, but at the same time (from personal experience) girls get preferential treatment

    One thing I feel would help this immensly would be to balance out the ratio of men and woman teachers, this is the only career that needs to be about equal. I think that would go a long way into helping bridge any remaining distance between the treatment of men and women
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      Jul 3 2012: Yes, Scott this dicotomy is a problem that I never quite figured out how to handle. I was trying to raise boys who would become good men in a time of transition so I tried to instill the courtly values in them and sometimes they felt resentment when they did the 'right' or courtly thing and a girl seemed to get all the break. For a bad example - I literally told them that women do not 'toot' and if they did a gentleman would not notice. This is a weird hold over from another era BUT women sure appreciate my boys and their manners. I guess they consider it a win long term.
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    Jun 27 2012: Mr Lee Miller, the fact that moral laws are broken does not mean societies that hope to attain order and security should stop making laws.

    Banks will always be robbed, whether by armed robbers, trusted staff(good pretenders), shady corporate excecutives, or by hackers. But this does not stop banks from working hard to ensure security.

    We will always have paedophiles, murderers and traffic offenders, but we cant not do away with the law because some people will break it anyway.

    You may be right that Saudi Arabia has porn sites, but it sure doesn't have as much as the US.
    Issues that face women all over the world are peculiar to the various nations. Women do live in a sort of 'private hell' as it pertains to established oppression.
    I just want us to have the right perspective, and not to think that women in the US,UK or elsewhere in the developed world are better off that women elsewhere. The oppression of women is like the same story performed in different theatres all over the world.

    Well packaged garbage is still garbage.
    • Jun 30 2012: Define a woman's 'private hell' .
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    Jun 26 2012: The issue of gender inequality is a tricky one. Just like freedom or democracy. Freedom as a concept falls into a trap if it is recieved as 'living without any restraints'; just as democracy could fall into the trap of 'tyranny of the majority' as if anything is right as long as there are enough people to support it.

    Gender inequality persists because most of the proponents of gender equality are not sure what it entails, even though there is so much noise about it.
    The super-American feminists would want to 'save' the Middle-east/African women, even when women in the US are reduced to mere objects of sexual pleasure by popular culture.
    In the US, pornography is a multi-billion dollar industry, and most citizens would deny watching porn(as if the billions just flew off from some pit). Saudi Arabia does not have this kind of exploitation of women.

    Jesus Christ says in Luke 6:41-42 "And why worry about the speck in your friends's eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying, 'friend,let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye, when you cant see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrites! First get rid of the log in your eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye."

    Women would need self-examination if gender equality is to be a reality. How do women react to the objectification of their kind? Are they enjoying all the attention?
    Sex sells, we are told. So, how will that image of a 'just a pretty face that helps to sell stuff', 'whore' , 'stripper' , 'seducer' , 'one of the spoils of a successful man' that has been created by the media, how will these images ever come to respect, let alone being able to 'save' the women of India or Africa?

    Any attempt to promote equality without careful consideration to determine what is morally right and what is morally wrong, is doomed to fail.
    In our world where things are taken as 'good' or 'great' as long as such brings money, I guess we are going nowhere slowly.
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    Jun 26 2012: To reform the conflict there first has to be a basic understanding about conflict. It is just the simple fact that there is a party who benefits from the conflict. This is often the cause of wars, divorce, and fights. The key is to expose the party who benefits from the conflict.

    I talked about this on the other thread but it fell on deaf ears.
    • Jun 26 2012: I hear you, pat. I agree with you. Truth out!
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      Jun 26 2012: The question however is, what is this party we speak of? that is what we must identify; saying that men are the ones who enjoy all the privileges ignores a much bigger problem where men are also enslaved by the rigidity of masculinity, which in turn influences how a woman is treated and why her success might seem threatening to a man. It is a dynamic that cannot and should not be ignored because it slows down our progress toward gender equality
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        Jun 26 2012: The party is an individual it is not a group. While it is true that a meme will be more predominant with one group or the other but in order to resolve the conflict it boils down to exposing an individual. In the case of women's right the ostensible one is Gloria Steinem.
      • Jun 27 2012: I think you've hit on the problem. Men oppress women, but they also oppress each other. I once heard heard a woman say to a man: "You were born male; why do you think you have to keep proving that you're a man?"
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          Jun 27 2012: "You were born male; why do you think you have to keep proving that you're a man?"
          I actually find that this quote perfectly embodies the problem faced by men today in that masculinity or manhood is something that can be given or taken away, something that must earned. Phrases such as "be a man", "man up" "grow some balls" are illustrations that manhood is a very fragile thing and that's something that must be recognized when we deconstruct the man to woman interaction. The pressure a guy feels to treat a woman a certain way, to have sex with a certain number of women, to be tough, and the lingering knowledge that if you don't act a certain way, your man card can be revoked. That is something that I think ought to be addressed and I think would have a profound impact on the gender dynamic
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      Jul 3 2012: Pat. maybe it is not about deaf ears but about time restaints. I do not remember seeing your quretion or idea.
      Could you please share more of those thoughts here?
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        Jul 3 2012: Conflict is caused by another party who is not the obvious 2 opposing groups or individuals.

        E.G. a couple is divorcing and get lawyers the lawyers exacerbate the situation as it is in their best interest to do so. World War 2 might have been financed by those who profit from a war.
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          Jul 4 2012: Thank you, Pat. In my case, I decided against the woman pit bull and chose a mediative lawyer. His lawyer was not mediative and man did that cause me trouble. My ex emailed me a separation agreement and told me to sign. I was aware enough to get legal advice but every change he made, I ended up paying for.
          Yes, lawyers do profit but it is our divorce ()Unfortunatelly) just as it was MY tumour. IN the end we chose our own direction. How often have I told people not to surrendert their children blindly to paediatricians -they are your kids -h/she is the expert in children but YOU are the ex]prt in this child. The same goes for our relatiohships. My ex only paid 2 months at 700 bucks after 5 kids and 28 years - many of which I was at home after paying off our first house. Still, even though the kids did not want me in legal battles with their Dad, the outcome is my responsibility if I chose a mediative lawyer and was not sufficiently shrewd. I do not think I can ever forget that he is the father of my children and I wanted nothing so much as peace betwen us. I do not think the lawyers did this. I think we did.
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        Jul 4 2012: Got it, however that does not negate the principle. If you don't think the lawyers had something to do with this your are fooling yourself.
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        Jul 4 2012: Of course you do...
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    Jul 7 2012: New social EDUCATION would help when everyone would be able to learn how to be an INDIVIDUAL not a thing that Belongs to some tribe. We do live in our mixed societies but each of us is born unique and this uniqueness is crying to manifest itself. New School? I mean we shall learn to respect the values within every individual. One person is not a tribe. If you bring your tribal behavior, mentality and habits to some public place you are more or less Violating other individuals. I think this initially good intention in developing our postmodern civilization means to let people be individuals without demonstrating their physical, religious or other kinds of origins when they are not asked for it. If I come to the bank, a public service place, asking for a job, wearing some loud native outfit and manifesting my tribal ideas, I would most likely scare the rest of people away.

    Be an INDIVIDUAL in our mixed society while developing our original characters however with respect to our complicated social environment is the key. Before demonstrating that you belong to any tribe be yourself, and be responsible for yourself.
  • Jul 5 2012: Though I haven't read every comment there's posted here, and I just scanned through the topic, from what the comments I've seen I can already tell where this is heading. Though this is supposed to be about 'gender inequality' and how we should stop hurting each other, because its rather pointless to even compare men to women, both are very different. What I see here is people talking about how bad women have it, its the same topic every single time. Once the topic of gender inequality is brought up, we cant stop talking about how badly women are treated.

    Yes in the past they weren't treated unfairly, and yes you still have it bad in a way. But even so, since after all this is the topic about gender inequality, why don't we talk about men as well? Men have it pretty bad too, specially nowadays. You see women being pitied when something bad happens, such as Debra, in one of her comments she pointed out how badly she was treated at work, yet no man here, at least not from what I've read...has said anything about how unfairly they are also treated. Without notice, the world we live in has...in a way, become feminist. Just two weeks ago, I was siting at a bar looking around just to find myself looking at very nice woman, she was beautiful. Without even noticing I apparently stared for a slight second or two, well it was enough for her to meet eye contact with me. And upon us making eye contact she immediately chuckled and called me a 'pervert' as if I was staring at her breasts or anywhere that might lead her to say this. But in fact...I was merely looking at her face. What do you make of that? '' Men are beasts who prey of women!'' men also have stereotypes and have it bad. But even so...we hardly ever talk about any of it. Women in the past and even now have it tough, but in a way, its their fault too. Just like its mens fault that we are seen as rapists if we walk on the streets at night alone.Both genders/sex's have faults in how they are currently being treated.
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      Aja B.

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      Jul 5 2012: I've noticed that, whenever large groups of people try to correct something they agree is wrong, they have a tendency to over-correct. I think you're right that we're starting to see something of an over-correction to the mistreatment of women in places... which isn't to say that women aren't still being mistreated, of course they still are, but that the growing tendency to treat all men as abusers of women and children is ridiculous and unjust. We can, as a society, treat women well without tearing men down.... but I worry that it may take some time to find the right balance.
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      Jul 5 2012: Michel, if you read the short paragraph introducing this conversation, you will notice that I did point out there are issues that men are facing which don't get enough spotlight, and this is why I welcome people to engage in a conversation where these issues can be addressed. I am glad you are remind us to give attention to the other side too
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    Jul 3 2012: FEMINISM DEADLOCK
    I want to elaborate the phrase “feminism deadlock” which I used it in my comments. Unfortunately the feminist movements have been impeded by several successive historical catastrophes. After first victory for feminists in 1920, when they gained federal amendment for Women’s Suffrage, a controversy aroused between feminist activists and cleaved them into tow antagonistic parties. A party thought that they reached their goal and the movement has reached its end and the other party believed that it is the genesis of a long and arduous procedure. When feminists were engaged this tough dispute the first catastrophe happened: The Great Depression. Then job opportunities disappeared and people lost their careers. Traditional workers, men, considered new workforce, women, as rival. It was too soon for society to accept a woman as breadwinner. Hence, men tried aggressively to take jobs form women. It was a shattering blow for feminist movement.

    After that, the second catastrophe occurred: the World War II. This war masculinized the atmosphere intensely again and people forgot all things about gender justice because of more severe issues.
    In 70s and 80s, by developing the communication technology, the trio of the mass media, popular culture and capitalism formed an impenetrable fort that has a great disposition to objectification of women.
    Now, I think people have no interest in changing the gender justice situation and are satisfied with current status. They just grumble sometime about it ignorantly. When I refer to feminism deadlock I mean this indifferent attitude towards gender justice which has a historical base.
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      Jul 4 2012: Thank you Ata for that valuable contribution to our understanding.
  • Jul 3 2012: Until we are willing to explore and connect to our masculine and feminine energies within and bring them into unity within, there will be no tangible actions taking place. Everyone has masculine and feminine within and we all need to connect to both sides of ourselves. Then we will be able to experience respect and honor both sides of ourselves and thus create equality for all. It is not a man and woman issue, it is accepting ourselves as a whole (masculine and feminine energies) and not as separate.
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      Jul 3 2012: Teresa, I am not sure about this because I sort of think that it was accessing my whole self and not just the 'masculine" of my personality that led me to wish to have good, well paying work and thus to do a nontradtional job.
      • Jul 4 2012: When coming from a space of balance, it is no longer about the masculine and feminine, it is about freedom for all, respect and honor. When we choose to see ourselves as separate, this is what leads to judgment.
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          Jul 4 2012: What a great new response! It is hard to feel part of a group that rallies its identity by marginaizing the newcomers.
        • Jul 5 2012: I certainly and wholeheartedly agree with your idea.

          However, the whole reason there is a feminist movement is that there is a portion of the population that do not agree with us. We might convince their children to our way of thinking, but meanwhile we have to do something about injustice now.
    • Jul 4 2012: "Everyone has masculine and feminine within"

      I have heard and read this many times, and it is always stated as an absolute, and always in the context of a solution. The problem is that the people who are the problem are not listening, and even if they were, they would reply by either laughing or saying "You just don't understand."

      The actual situation is more like, we are all women, and some of us have more testosterone than others. There is a genetic condition called Androgen insensitivity syndrome. At the extreme, every cell in the body cannot absorb any testosterone at all. When a genetic male has this condition, the result is a very voluptuous female body, without the inner female genitalia.

      Our masculine and feminine traits start with biology, but our upbringing has a big effect also. I think a great deal of my morals and notions of masculinity came from John Wayne movies, no joking. I think the point I am trying to make is that this is a very complex reality and talk about male and female energies oversimplifies it to the point of uselessness. Teresa, I fully agree that accepting ourselves as a whole is very important. Knowing ourselves is a big part of the answer. Lets make sure we get it right, or the people who need convincing will be right to not listen.
  • Jul 3 2012: The truth of the this debate is what exactly is equality? Males and females are very different. Some of this "discrimination" does not come through sexist ideas but rather from practicality. Look at construction workers for example. There are probably a lot more male construction workers than female construction workers. While I think a women would certainly be able to be a great construction worker, it would probably be easier for the male who is on average taller and heavier than his female counterpart. I don't necessarily see that as discrimination, but I see it as efficiency.

    I believe that in many ways women are discriminated against in the work place. There are many more male dominated jobs than women dominated jobs. This in large has been based on physical requirements of jobs and social attitudes. Remember that until fairly recently in American history (world war 1 was when it women really joined the work force in mass, and again in WWII), and people just take a long time to break stereotypes.


    It seems that women who have children can cause relatively more issues for employers than their husbands. A lot of that is simply biological. Maternity leave is still a chunk of time where someone cannot work. Males don't have this equivalent. Also, I saw something on the news that I think is important. I saw a women recently sue her company because her company wouldn't let her off early to pick up her child from school. She wanted to get off two hours early many different days. As the boss of that company, I would not grant that request because I'd be missing an employee for two hours frequently; it would have nothing to do with the fact that she was a mother.

    Males and females have different biological needs and social roles. These different needs require different rules and regulations.These different regulations are not "equal" though. I don't think true equality is what we even really want. I think as a society we just need to be reasonable and unbiased.
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      Jul 3 2012: Noah I suggest you look at how the Scandinavian countries have been handling these issues for 50 years now... not to the detriment of any company, women, men or their economies. I think you would be surprised to find out that your positions and thinking are quite retrograde.

      As for women construction workers...averages are not the issue. A small man with relatively little upper body strength who spent his youth typing away on a keyboard would be no match for an athletic woman who spent her youth doing triathalons. We need to stop thinking in "averages" and open the world up to individuals with strengths and weaknesses...
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        Jul 3 2012: I second Liz here. In Canada, what it has taken to defeat this type of usually faith based logic is human rights legislation. Our human rights tribunals have proven scientifically that many of the so called requirements for jobs were simply guesses for lack of a better word - designed to keep women and minorities out. For example how tall should you be to be a good firefighter? Is it relevant?
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      Jul 4 2012: Noah does have a great point though. We do need to really define what we mean by equality. We often say that there is an undeniable bias toward males in the top positions, yet nobody seems to point out the fact that Another thing to point out is that men have the highest percentage of job related injuries or fatalities, not counting the obvious life expectancy difference. Do we attribute this to gender inequality too, or do we simply say that it's the way things are?
      • Jul 4 2012: To Mrs Smith and Mrs. McLellan, I totally see what you're saying. I was not saying that there were not exceptions to stereotypical views of men and women; I was simply pointing out a biological truth. Men are normally larger. There are certainly exceptions to this like the hypothetical example that Mrs. McLellan pointed out. There is something very important to note about the stature difference though. Why are there different divisions between males and females in sports? In the olympics, the weight-lifting is split into a male and female division because, on average, the male competitors are larger. All I'm saying is that there is a biological difference that slightly favors men in physically demanding jobs. Mrs. Smith, I really know nothing about these laws, so I don't know what to say about them. I believe that a company should hire who they believe would do the job in the best way possible. I couldn't really see the height of a firefighter being relevant. The firefighter should be chosen based on his or her ability to do the job.

        Dany, I believe that a lot of the job-related injuries come from the differences in jobs. I believe that if there were equal amounts of men and women in these jobs, the difference in injuries would be much smaller.

        One other issue is the choice of vocation. My teacher is a female engineer which was very uncommon when she graduated. It is not that her female friends couldn't be an engineer (they most certainly could), they simply chose to get some other degree. That being said, it does create a field that has many more males than females. I don't think that this is necessarily sexist though. Society didn't really stress female engineers thirty years ago, so we have many male engineers. This isn't really discrimination against women; it is societal thinking though that just promotes other jobs. I don't believe that women were ever told "you can't" they just were never told "you should." Now there are more female engineers than back then
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          Jul 4 2012: I love chatting with you Noah!
          I simply feel that while there are a few occupations (furniture movers)ho benefit from greater physical strength - it is worse than you let on- with women having estrogen influenced muscle mass and men having testosterone influenced muscle mass- partially creating the difference in physique- but it is still the men in charge holding on to old and worn out logic to keep certatin folks out of the fold.

          What I did not tell this group is that four of us were hired on the same day. 3 men and me. The toolmakers refused to train a woman and threatened a walk out strike. The union backed the men (the majority and to hell with facts or truth) and all four of us were laid off to appease them. We were rehired one day after out lay off surpassed the time we worked (to surcumvent legalities) and rehired with a different job description which did not require our training by toolmakers. We were, of course paid less. I had to get my training from some men who would not even talk to me. They did not want me there and they felt that they should not have to train a woman. How would you endure such treatment? How can we all do better for your daughters and sisters and for my sons?

          BTW- I worked there for ten years and guess what???????????????

          They denied me a pension because I had taken a maturnity leave during that time.
      • Jul 4 2012: Debra, I totally see understand your side. There are only a few jobs which physique plays a fundamental role, but i still think it is worth mentioning. You were wronged; there is no denying that. I don't really know how to "fix" the problem either. The only thing silver lining that I can see on this issue is that things are changing. Sexism is becoming less common in the younger generations. That is coming through women who work hard and accomplish despite the opinions of others. Your ten years at this job proved that you could do this job quite well. You chiseled against the stereotype and changed how the people you worked with saw women in your field. We are changing the stereotypes; unfortunately culture takes a long time to change.

        The only thing that we have to be conscious of is the what we are working for. Our goal should always be equality. We need to be very careful that we don't inadvertently hurt the other sex while trying to promote our own.
  • Jul 1 2012: Dany Masado,

    “More importantly, Is it possible that some men felt that they were restricted to working ungodly hours to be the breadwinner when they wish they could spend more time with their children?”

    This is a great question, and there are a couple parts to it.

    First, the directly stated:

    -“, Is it possible that some men felt that they were restricted to working ungodly hours to be the breadwinner”?

    And

    -“ they wish they could spend more time with their children?”

    Second, the indirectly stated:

    -Did it take away from women the chance to be a breadwinner and possibly do it in a career that they may have cherished while being a major contributor to the field?

    I commend these questions as valuable to all of our freedoms (also of course the topic of the debate). Even if having a child is a choice, should that choice take away specific freedoms from each gender, or should the person (not the gender) get to choose their contributions? Is this a choice our societies truly offer?

    (Sorry for the delayed response)
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    Jul 1 2012: In response to my take on this topic, J M asked me to define a woman's 'private hell'.

    I used the word 'hell' as a symbolism for oppression. Women all over the world are dealing with domestic violence, objectification, institutionalised inequalities and oppressive cultural/traditional practices.
    A woman may face one, all or none of these; and individual experiences are individual experiences.
    One may symphathise or emphathise with an oppressed fellow, but it is impossible for someone to feel a pain that is experienced in another person's body.
    That is why I called it 'private hell'; in order to make it clear that women in the developed nations are not in any way better than Middle-East, Indian, Chinese, or African women. Just like someone agonising over a toothache, is in no way better than someone who has just been shot in the foot with an AK47.
    An African proverb says 'Think twice if a ragged man promises you a beautiful cloth'.

    The effects of oppression on individuals do vary. In fact, the responses of oppressed individuals to oppression, varies.

    Sometimes oppression becomes fatal such that the oppressed could forget his or her original state of freedom. One will definately not notice the abnormal if one does not even know(or remember vividly) the norm.
    A tamed lion, a charmed snake, a castrated bull or a de-horned Rhino; are all different from an unaltered lion,snake,bull or rhino.
    Here, the animals are different. So their alteration is a form of 'private hell'.

    There is a gap between equality laws and attitudinal realities. Now, I refer to the attitude of men and women. The truth is that some nations have successfully created the illussion that women are free; while some other nations have made it clear that they are not.
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      Jul 1 2012: "The truth is that some nations have successfully created the illussion that women are free; while some other nations have made it clear that they are not."

      I couldn't agree more
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        Jul 3 2012: Free to do what? What can't people do now that they want to? I hear this all the time. If only we were free... What do women want to do that's so wonderful and perfect and if only men would stop holding them back?

        Women graduate high school and college at higher rates than men in the US... and have for 30 years straight... but men are oppressing women.

        Women are less likely to be unemployed than men... and have been for 20 years.

        Womens health costs more money than mens health because of pregnancy, so men are taxed extra to cover the difference.

        Womens retirement costs more than mens, because they live a decade longer than men... So men are taxed to cover that too.

        Rape and murder are down. It's illegal to beat your wife. "Irreconsilable differences" is grounds for divorce...

        What are men doing that is so horrible? I was born in 1982... so I haven't seen any of this oppression you talk of.

        It's also important to point out that while women were being oppressed in the 1960's... Men were being drafted into a meaningless war. Rich men have it easy, and they always have, most guys, do now, and have always, lead miserable lives where they work for people they hate, to feed their family.
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          Jul 3 2012: Oh David- pick something other than pregnancy- we might carry the ball but you made the pass! That in particular seems like we are on the same team (even if we do all the work!)
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          Jul 4 2012: David, I think you make a valid point, especially in reference to the fact that all men are required to register for the draft, which women don't have to do. The graduation rate for women is much higher, but nobody sees this as alarming because it indicates progress in the women's empowerment movement. We do need to be able to address men's issues as well as women, avoid dismissing either gender's problem under the idea that either one has it worse. domestic violence is still a problem so is rape (no matter that the rates are down, they could be better). however, I also see a bias in the way rape is addressed in that there isn't enough coverage on male rape (especially in the military). Wasn't it recently that the definition of rape was changed to include males too? I think that is grounds for dicussion
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        Jul 4 2012: I apologize for being a bit terse... It just seems to me like everyone feels oppressed now, but we all think our group has it worse... To me, all the arguments fell apart when old white men started to be able to sue their employers for agism... Really... Old white men are being descriminated against?... in the job market? We're doing something wrong here.

        I don't mean to pretend that women don't have specific issues, that do warrant further work, study, and assistance. In every southern state they're trying to pass birth control legislation, and that's nonsense. It's rediculous that we're re fighting some of these battles.

        You mentioned sex trafficing... I personally think an honest discussion of legalization of prostitution, might be essential to dealing with that problem long term, but it's a very sensitive subject with fair and rational arguments on both sides. Whatever the solution however, it is simply unacceptable that this is a relatively common practice in strip clubs country wide.

        Btw... The real increase in medical expenses comes from increased life expectancy, I just wanted to talk about that with social security : p. Just so you know I don't have any problem with these taxes and such, I've been convinced by the argument that these are good investments...

        I just think it's important to point out, if you smoke, drink, or eat too much... and you're a man. Statistically, you will pay into social security for 30 years, and die before you collect. African American and Latino men also have shockingly low life expectancies to this day... In fact, the average black man, lives to be 67, and that's the age you start collecting social security under current changes...

        There are dark aspects to our system, that need to be reformed... I just really think men and women need to work together if we want to fix them, and... Life's hard all around.

        "A woman who seeks to be equal to a man, lacks ambition" Timothy Leary
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    Jun 30 2012: Dany, I have to place much of the blame on media coverage. They report the extremes and exploit the "gory" details of all incidents. How often do you hear the good things that are happening in the world of EEOC, advances by people and companies, seldom because it is not news worthy. Tabloids and bad media keep the fires stirred up.

    We do not need to re-focus or reform ... we need to accentuate the positive ... eliminate the infatuation with the negative. Perhaps a better way would be to resolve the issues on a smaller scale. Resolve them one on one not as a office issue where everyone must take a side.

    My sons can all cook, sew, do dishes and have changed diapers. My daughters can change tires, do plumbing, and household repairs. The is no man / woman work .. there are tasks that need to be done.

    All the best. Bob.
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      Jul 1 2012: I am so glad that you are raising your children do defy the stereotypes, to simply be who they want to be, outside of gender role restrictions. I also wholeheartedly agree with you that the media does tend to sensationalize the negative rather than give us more positivity. It would indeed help to have a little hope that things are on their way up
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    Jun 29 2012: Understand your point......my feeling is even after re-framing / re-pharsing words of subject of such discussion / debate, things will come out which are deep seated in the mind due to tradition practiced centuries after centuries in human civilization without having conscious effort to change our psyche.

    Wish your such effort will make feeling to be wrong....
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      Jun 29 2012: I am sure that a paradigm shift in the way we discuss gender equality will not come easy, because change is destabilizing and often frustrating. It is indeed a conscious and difficult effort to make, but I don't think progress can be made otherwise
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        Jul 1 2012: I don't think equality and progress are the right words in this matter.

        If you look at traditional cultures life could only be sustained by a certain division of tasks between genders. Modern life changes fast, much more fast than most people can follow. Lots of people adapt to the new circumstances while others migrate from traditional areas.

        So it isn't progress but adaptation to a new way of life and it isn't a fight for equality, for genders were mostly equal in respect within traditions all over the world.

        Over time there's been a change of focus within humane life. At first all interest was on the group, then it became fhe family and now the focus changes to the individual.
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          Jul 3 2012: Great points and they are well argued!
  • Jun 29 2012: This is what I would tell my kids (in my current case my little brother):

    We are all people, but we are also all different. We see things differently, we feel stresses differently, and we draw different conclusions in different situations. All of this and more are exactly the reasons why we have our own individual value and make our own contributions to our world. Our only definitive equality is that we are all different and the difference are much more fundamental than gender.

    The human brain "names" people with differences: how their face looks, what the color of their skin is, what their gender is, and so on... Our brains then use this natural naming tendency as a foundation of definition. The problem is this habit sometimes causes us to draw conclusions which are not well founded at all levels.

    In example: a man might recognize that someone is a woman and therefore draw the conclusion that they are different from each other. This is true. But it doesn't stop there; then they conclude they can do different things and in turn they can't do the same things. Not true at all levels.

    Humans have a tendency towards pride, and that pride often turns into a feeling of being better than someone else (hubris). In a society that has primarily been dominated by men, this tendency has turned toward men being better than women. This tendency is an extreme and is not true on this general basis. The only thing that you can say on this general level is that they are different.
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      Jun 29 2012: One of the important reason for this illusion that men are better than women is that women have been restricted in home to give birth and take care of children and often didn't take other more serious social positions. But today, families have for the most part only one or tow children. On the other hand, there are many modern facilities and legislation which allow families to take care of their children in new ways. Nevertheless, still there is a great tendency between women to stay home or take low-level jobs such as clerkship. For instance you can take a look at staff of a university; most professors are men and most secretaries are women. Why women still follow patriarchal rules however the situation has been completely changed?
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        Jun 29 2012: maybe a bigger problem here is to ask ourselves why we think that staying at home giving birth and taking care of children is not a "serious social position". This forces us to really re-evaluate why stay-at-home moms have almost become tantamount to wasted potential, as if they are to be pitied regardless of whether or not it was a choice for them to stay home and care for the kids.
        More importantly, Is it possible that some men felt that they were restricted to working ungodly hours to be the breadwinner when they wish they could spend more time with their children? In our quest for gender equality, do you think that stay at home dads get the same rep that mothers do? What is your first reaction when you hear a man say he stays at home to care for the kids while his wife works? This is yet another example of the gender restriction on men which inevitably affect the man to woman interaction.
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          Jun 29 2012: This idea is very excellent that man and woman in a family share a fixed amount of working hours per week equally and each of them spends equal hours at home and take care of children and do household chores. It can ameliorate the negative effect of long working hours especially in routine jobs and provide more free time to foster creativity or non-profit activities at home. However this plan cannot expand to all class of families. For example when you are a executive manager you cannot attend your company only 3 days per week or a mechanical design engineer who must accomplish a major project during one year cannot go to work part-time and prolong the project, because it will lead to financial loss and miss the market. Nevertheless, these families have enough income to hire servant.

          But let me to emphasize that in my view cooking for your own sake, taking care of you own child and doing your domestic chores of your own home IS NOT A JAB! A job is a career which involves promotion, social interaction, appropriate income, organization and so forth.
        • Jun 29 2012: maybe a bigger problem here is to ask ourselves why we think that staying at home giving birth and taking care of children is not a "serious social position".

          This is no mystery. Anyone can stay home and raise children. No qualifications needed, no need for an interview, and the position often gets no pay. It is one of the least exclusive roles in society. IMO, there are two related problems that together become the root cause of this lack of status. One, the tradition that a man's home is his castle, and whatever happens in that home is the business of the family and no one else, especially not the government. So there are no standards or guidelines for raising children. Not long ago, beating your children was perfectly acceptable if you did not break bones.

          The second problem is the flip side of the first one. We have no scientifically confirmed method for raising children. I have not kept up with the research in this area, but when I first became a father, in 1977, I looked up everything that was available. There were about a half dozen methods of child raising that could credibly claim to be scientifically based. So I looked into the independent studies of these methods, and found that only one of them had better results than children raised with none of these methods, and the improvement was insignificant. I remember that one of the methods produced a significantly higher percentage of teenagers abusing drugs.

          So basically, society believes that raising kids is a 'by guess and by golly' business, as evidenced by the fact that parents who appear to be doing everything right still produce children who become criminals, drug abusers, or just lazy losers.

          A successful scientific method for raising children will transform our society, and trained parents will get the status of respected professional.
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          Jul 3 2012: And if I had kids I would not let you anywhere near them friend! No offense intended... but state sanctioned methods come and go. Most of them have been misery making unscientific ideological drivel backed up by men in white coats and a certain level of coersion.

          My job as a parent is not to raise cogs for your corporate machine - the network of "respected professionals" - as I am one I suggest that is a rather limited spec for a well raised human.
        • Jul 4 2012: Liz, please take another look. I never mentioned state sanctioned methods and would oppose them. I have no corporate machine. I never suggested that "respected professional" was the spec. There is a lot of good research being done into child development and parenting, and some of it has produced very surprising results. If this research eventually produces a SUCCESSFUL (no teens abusing drugs or alcohol, no juvenile delinquents, etc.) method of parenting, I am sure you would at least look into it before rejecting it.
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    Jun 28 2012: Can I humbly submit that in my experience good men hate what I have had to endure? When I was at GM I was sexually inexperienced and wholly unprepared for someone to ;help' himself to servings of my body. IN their peer group where I was the only woman, it was pretty cool to grab me by the boob or crotch- at least at first while I was still working out how to deal with it. It took me years and a hell of a lot of stress to figure out how to deal with it. BUT I DID and so I have less patience for women who blow off my real work and complain about this more limited definition of sexual harassment. The laws are there because it can get really bad reaaly fast without them even among men who have wives and daughters of their own who feel they would never treat them in such a manner- which is pecisely the problem- they put those women in a different category from 'my kind of woman.' What kind is that, I ask?The kiind who wants to make a living and be well paid for it?
    • Jun 28 2012: WOW, that must have been stressful >.< Sometimes people might think they are doing one thing but they are really doing something completely different (of course sometimes people know exactly what they are doing). Acceptance and comradery can quickly become exploitation and degradation.
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        Jun 29 2012: Hi Robert, yes, it was certainly stressful at the time but in a weird way it made my values coalesce. I purposed then never to do such a thing (emotionally) to another and I do not knowingly do so and I pray that I do not do it unknowingly either.
        It was NOT sexual at all at heart. It was dominant and it was meant to put me in my place - and I still do not know where they believed that was.
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      Jun 29 2012: I consider myself a good man, and on behalf of most of them, I have to say that your experience, is exactly why good men, also tend to have difficulty with confidence and self image. To me, the struggle of a good man, is to learn to control his own often brutally self destructive nature, for the sake of the people he cares about... The werewolf, Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Most good men know these laws were put in place for a reason.

      At the same time, as a member of a much younger generation, I have to suggest that paranoia, over sexual confusion turning into lawsuit, has changed the way men and women interact, in a strange way. Men are so much better at controlling themselves nowadays, that many, are convincing themselves that the beast was just a legend. There are are 25 year old men, who actually believe that they are these androgenous carefree creatures... and... they're not.

      No one's really correcting the behavior, because women feel like they've found friends, and comrades with which to share experience... when in reality, it is more often a wolf in sheeps clothing. Quite a few men who grew up, very good at navigating these weird new social norms, are actually what I like to call "secret relationship sociopaths". People that just ride a wave of lies, and self humiliation for a year or so, it collapses around them, and then they move on to the next relationship, with almost no pause between, because they have so many "friends".

      Good young men worry about this strange, dark, undercurrent developing in masculine society. Often we feel like laws have made it difficult for us to speak honestly in public space, and it makes this weird subculture difficult to fix. I think most good men realize that laws needed to be put in place to defend against such awful abuse as what you experienced however. Such behavior must be legally, and socially unacceptable. We just may have gone a bit to far in self censoring, and it may be a bit unhealthy, imho.
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        Jun 29 2012: I wonder if people have any idea how wonderful it is for me not to have to keep quiet and pretend my experiences never happened? Thanks so much for talking with me about this - sometimes it still rolls over inside and I wonder WHY"
        Your points are so important as a foil. What the women learned and experienced influenced and impacted all the men in their lives just as all men do determines how women react to them. I hate what the innocent young guys have endured too. It is not fair! How do you think the brutality i experienced affected my burgeoning sex life with my husband. It did affect me, it cannot be denied.
        All I ever wanted was the chance to work and do work that was meaningful to me so that I could take good care of those who were entrusted to me. Once I had the job all of the expectations flooded in and there was no way to quit or go back.
        Your point about what is called "serial friendshp" is on Psychologist's radar/ It is maladaptive and it is destructive even as it appears as a coping mechanism. You are intuitive and intelligent. Hold on to your observations lightly so they are not toxic to you, good man.
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          Jun 29 2012: I get all the toxins out in comedic vitriol on the internet. I've always loved the yin and yang of tragedy and comedy. I don't think there's a harder thing in the world for a compassionate human being to do, than to write a good holocaust joke. If ever I sound a bit too heavy... there's a reason that people like George Carlin get popular in their 40's, it takes a long time to refine the skill. You're reading some of the duds : p

          Seriously, ponder for a moment, what a great problem this is that we have... Could you ever imagine, when you were going through what you did, that one day it might get so safe in the workplace, that we'd be complaining it's getting a bit boring, and that's creating creepy people? Compared to the problems we've had in the past, this is childs play, lol... but it's still important.

          This discussion actually illuminated what I was talking about before in reference to culture. Until fifty years ago, there was almost no where in the world a woman could live, and not be treated the way you were... Yet every country in the world thought their culture was so good, they should export it everywhere else... We really are a pretty dumb bunch of chimpanzees.
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        Jun 29 2012: Now that final line must be unique to an age demographic, David, MY eldest son calls us litttle pink monkies.
        the one thing that is really clear is that men hate being treated as women have been treated for years. Maybe their indignation teaches women how we should be handleing it?
        I wish I could undo the confidence thing you refer to (and I do try in my personal relationships) because I do not want that crisis of confidnece for anyone I care about and the well being of our men affects us so deeply.
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      Jun 29 2012: I can't believe how rude the Canadians are/were?
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        Jun 29 2012: Rude Pat? please explain because that is generally not the view we hear from other cultures. Rudeness may be in the eye of the beholder especially if you are offended by the truth or other people's perspective of it.

        You may find it interesting that it was a Canadian who tried to convince your Greenspan to save you from the meltdown. It was also Canadians who saved your diplomats in Iran.

        One of the things Canadians generally consider polite is to never forget a kindness.

        Maybe what you meant is UPPITY? We are never thrilled about bending our knee to psuedo rulers of the world.

        If you refer to the men at GM remember to watch some of your own movies about what all women in mines and factories endured in the USA as well.
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          Jun 29 2012: The last one, it was a joke lighten up.

          How can I joke about such a terrible thing? because you are obviously tougher than that as you blazed the trail.

          Cultures change because of people like you.
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        Jun 30 2012: my joke detector may also have been broken by the brain stem clots or maybe it went when my balance went. I am sorry for being as serious as dirt but the issue is a tough one for me.
        Thanks for your light response.
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          Jun 30 2012: Sorry to hear about your health problems.

          By balance do you mean regarding politics, hasn't that been a problem for some time? (8^(l)
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    Jun 27 2012: If we want break the deadlock of feminism and gender justice the first step is acceptance of this fact that gender is not just male or female. If you read the comments of people who blame generally men or women, all of them have a typical conception of Man and Woman. They consider all women have the same characteristics and attitudes; however you cannot find tow people with exactly the same personality in the world. Firstly we must accept each individual has his/her own characteristics regardless to his/her gender. A man with feminine behavior is not mentally ill, and vice versa. In the ideal form, gender should not restrict the behavior and lifestyle of individuals. I think it can define as a specific goal of gender justice.
    • Jun 30 2012: Where is this dead lock?
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        Jul 3 2012: Dear J M
        I tried to discuss this subject which you came up, above this page.
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      Jul 3 2012: My concerns are less with individual attitudes than with national and corporate policies which limit my choices and my freedom or refuse to protect me as a citizen say when being stalked... That sort of thing... I deeply wish people would stop making it all about feelings and anecdotes...

      Or media representations which tell young women the way to make your mark is to be hot and stupid, or hot and mean, or just hot and hot. Of course the impacts on young men also suck for the models they are offered and the expectations which they are filled with with regards to girls and women....
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        Jul 3 2012: Mass media and popular culture which have a close reciprocal relationship when combine with power and economical desires of entrepreneurs consolidate the power of influence of media on ordinary people. The regrettable fact is that none of them has nothing to do with non-profit activities such as gender justice which don't have direct economic results. My main contention is that subjects such as feminism and gender justice are not interesting topics for mass media and it has been a major hindrance for feminism movement. How we can raise the public interest in this issue?
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    Jun 27 2012: Beyond the blatant physical differences, women are said to make more use of their right hemisphere, men of the left..
    Plain logic has been the driving force behind the early industrial years.. now the tide is changing in the richest countries, imagination, creativity & empathy are all becoming more important.. (even by stock exchange measures!)

    I could be totally wrong, but I wonder if there's any correlation there?
  • Jun 27 2012: Feyisayo Anjorin makes an extremely important point. Just what do women want? And what do feminists want?

    Feminists pushed for the equal rights amendment in the USA, and it failed, due in large part to women refusing to support it. I think they refused to support it because treating men and women exactly alike under the law would be an injustice because men and women are different. It is ridiculous for feminists to complain about men treating them like sex objects when it is clear that many women are trying their hardest to be treated exactly that way.

    Now, I firmly believe that women have legitimate complaints and that our culture puts ridiculous pressures on men. If you are serious about accomplishing something, you must first establish realistic goals. These goals must be based on what men and women have in common as well as the real differences. Feminism needs a basis in science and philosophy, a basis which I think will result in the death of feminism and a re-emergence of humanism.

    Back in the seventies, when many people were first hearing about feminism, I told people it would be the best thing that ever happened for men. I still think so.

    I would tell my children and grandchildren to fight injustice of all kinds.
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    Jul 7 2012: From the mouth of babes and TEDx

    http://youtu.be/lPqWzA25R0M

    This little lady has something really true and valid to say. I discovered it when I followed a link from the Bullying thread.
    Debra
  • Jul 5 2012: Aja, I'm glad someone else has noticed this. I'm afraid that even as the years go, this world we live in wont change at all. Men will still be seen as beasts, and women will still be seen as too delicate and housewife's. I believe its our own faults that the world we live in wont change. Some women nowadays want to be respected, yet they dress like...If I dare say, prostitutes. Men, will be men, if you dress in proactive way some things are bound to happen. And that's also one of the reason why men are seen as beasts, if some men could just control themselves, they wouldn't be seen as 'perverts' and 'molesters' We wont progress at all.
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      Jul 5 2012: If you carry a man child inside your body for 9 months and then give birth to him, nurse him and love him into adulthood, I think it unlikely that you would be unable to empathize with his trials and tribulations especially if they are the same ones you yourself have endured.
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        Jul 5 2012: very well said Debra. This is the reason why I asked what we will tell both our sons and daughters when in the adult world, we are pitching one gender against the other. Remembering that we might have children of both genders helps put in perspective the pressing need to acknowledge issues from both sides
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    Jul 5 2012: Hello Robert
    I understand there's many different systems mostly man made. The system I was refering to was nature or eveloution. I believe man is his own worst enemy we keep screwing with the system and it will bite us in the ass. So sir don't jump on me to hard and ill work at spelling better and being clearer in what I'm saying
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    Jul 5 2012: OK, let's try a new approach to get some of our ideas across: look up Nelllie McKay's TED talk called Mother of Pearl and see if it resonates. (I am sorry for some reason it would not attach).
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    Jul 5 2012: Howdy Dany
    Let's try and remember we are all part of a system that won't be any different 100 years from now but we will keep try . As a race we are mulely like that.
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      Jul 5 2012: Sorry Dean, I have seen so much progress since those guys were touching me and I could not even figure out how to get into my job station that I cannot share your pessimism.
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        Jul 5 2012: What are you sorry for? Because they touched you or because they missed a lesson on being a man or are you sorry you were born a woman and not a man or vise versa. Hey I know your sorry for being so weak that you apoligize for others short comings or mistakes
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          Jul 5 2012: HIDean,
          It is a terrible thing to mistake kindness for weakness Dean. I guess I am sorry that you are so pessimistic and that I cannot find common ground with you on this. Did you just call me weak. LOVE it when people make that mistake, sweety pie. My grandfather who died the same weekend i was born said never mistake meekness for weakness.

          I LOVE being a woman and would never choose to be anything else. I am of course, still indignant that people took such advantage of the young woman that I was. I was caught in the changing times and I just needed a job. I made mistakes as I alone fought this fight and I know that millions of women are better off because I spoke out. Maybe the jerks who touched my body without invitation never would have had a shot then or since and they were willing to risk it at my expense. Maybe jerks that make rude retortsa never get to play in the big leagues either so they take their cheap shots where ever they can.

          What am i trruly sorry for: it goes iwth my original statement- I am sorry thaT ANYONE IS STILL BEING JUDGED BY THEIR BODY- because that affects us all. I am also sorry that jerks miisinterpret the obvious in life - but hey that is another discussion.
    • Jul 5 2012: "Let's try and remember we are all part of a system that won't be any different 100 years from now but we will keep try ."

      At what level do you want to look at the system, because at the level of women's rights (and human rights in general) the system is vastly different than it was 100 years ago. To assume there won't be any more changes 100 years from now is statistically improbable.
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    Jul 4 2012: When I was in France, the farmers used to pay us for peeling garlic by the kilo. 10 centimes for one kilo. The Moroccan women were the best by far...outpeeling the Europeans by 3 times the amount in the same time. Consequently, they were paid three times more. If a male coalminer gets 3 tonnes of coal to the surface in the same time that a female miner gets 2 tonnes of coal to the surface, should they be paid the same amount? I have no doubt that the men and the women have made the same amount of physical effort and worked for the same time, but the simple fact of the matter is that the man has produced a third more. Shouldn't he, like the Moroccan women, be compensated for his work? This is a practical question which people all too readily avoid discussing. Please respond.
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      Jul 5 2012: David, it might be hard to repsond to this but I am grateful that you are bringing it up. No one enjoys mistreatment. I would just ask you to consider that this treatment is the way it has been for women for all time except now. If we do not fix this now, when will we?
      Excelent points.
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        Jul 5 2012: But this is my point...are the examples I have given examples of mistreatment or fair treatment? Although you thanked me for bringing them up, they still haven't been addressed.
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          Jul 5 2012: David, darling, if I could answer the world's conundrums - I would have done so already. All I can actually do is recognize when a point made here is a major one but what is confusing to me is why you do not feel it necessary to recognize points made here that are truly, experiencially and morally right. What is inherently male about making car parts?
        • Jul 5 2012: I will be glad to answer. The answer is both. It is mistreatment from the view of the person doing an equal amount of work and getting paid less. It is fair treatment from the view of the employer, who should not have to pay more to an employee who delivers less.

          When feminists look at unequal wages, do they consider it from the view of a woman employer?

          I think this is an area that feminism should not consider a high priority because it is extremely complex. I was a computer programmer and a good one. Studies showed that the best computer programmers were 20 times more productive than the average programmer, but received only slightly more compensation. Capitalism is not kind to workers of either sex.
  • Jul 2 2012: I believe what needs to be understood is that Men and Women are different, made different, so they cant have the same platform, position, call it anything. Instead, they have to be at different but equal levels, pedestals. The difference between same and equal needs to be understood. Especially, where I come from.
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      Jul 3 2012: But what if I am not interested in conforming to the gender norms and boundaries you proscribe?
      • Jul 5 2012: These are not the norms I am proscribing ! I am talking about the way men and women have been made ever since the first homo sapiens set foot on earth. Nature has made us that way. There will always be exceptions but as a general there is a difference in what image Man and Woman have been made. I am not for once saying that one is better. No. All I am saying is that each one is in some ways different than the other and hence we talk about equal and not same !!!
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          Jul 5 2012: Yeah... there is a range of how men are.... some men are quite effeminate...some men quite macho...and some women are quite strong. Not me for instance I am 5 foot tall... but my friend Olivia is an athlete who can out run most cubical dwelling men I know...So I really do not know what your point is.

          People were not "made" - people ARE in their fullness unique. Respect that.
      • Jul 5 2012: I believe every sane person respects the fact that "ALL OF US ARE UNIQUE IN OUR OWN LITTLE WAY".
        And I am one of the sane ones too.

        My point is, here we are discussing based on the premise that we are talking about Men and Women, and not jack and Drew or Molly or Sonia or josh. We are taking both the genders as whole. So even though every person is unique, that isn't the question here, though its a very nice thought here. But I will take this thought forward, and say that just as we are all UNIQUE so are MEN and WOMEN on whole and hence my whole argument.
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          Jul 7 2012: What is the outcome you want to see from "understanding" the differences?
      • Jul 10 2012: The outcome from understanding the differences and mutual accept-ion of equal pedestals/platforms would lead to a satisfied and Happy and fulfilled coexistence of both the genders ! What is crucial is that the first part of understanding the differences is a necessary condition for mutual accept-ion of equality.
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      Jul 3 2012: Dear Abhishek, Why then are the women's platfomrs - which usually life sustaining - paid so poorly?
      • Jul 4 2012: Mrs Smith, I believe the reason that women are unequally paid comes a lot from past treatment of the issue. Look at teaching. I'm sure you can remember reading about some small one-room school house with the one teacher who was not afraid to use a ruler to discipline her students. Long before women suffrage or the feminist movement, this was a female-dominated profession. Then women were discriminated against and received low pay. I think the low pay stuck with the profession simply because that was the way we have done it for so long. The lower pay of the teaching profession may have spawned from sexist ideas, but it remains simply because of habit. That being said, it would be incredibly difficult to raise the wage now simply because of how underfunded most public shoals are. People would also be quite upset if taxes were raised to pay for higher teacher salaries as well.

        Overall, I believe that while the lower pay of predominantly women professions was rooted in sexist thinking, its cause today is not from sexism but rather from our society's long history of paying not paying these professions well.
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          Jul 4 2012: Noah, that was an enjoyable answer, thank you.
          I have lived my life under the scrutiny of men who were convinced women because they were women (often on the basis of religious text which pretend to protect us) deserved far less out of life. Yes, traditionally female professions are often under paid. Why should women settle for a wage determined by past beliefs?


          However, your answer did not explain why women should accept such a condition? Are we to pay some penance from centuries gone by even though our own kind died in such bondage?

          Look at the opposite example to see more of what is occuirring today.Please feel free to call me Debra, but I didnote your politeness and kindness. Pharmaceutical sales used to be well paid - when it was male dominated. In order to bring the wage down to the 60s or so, they begam hiring women who were willing to work hard for far less. The companies won and the men lost biggest.

          I still do not understand that if the main direction of religous men by their own texts- is to protect women, and in Christianity it is even to love us as Chist loved the churdch (aka to the very death to save her) -why, then do they oppose us when facts and fund tracking indicate that women take every cent home and use money wisely.
      • Jul 4 2012: Debra, I never said that women should accept such a condition. I believe that a lot of the poor wage goes hand in hand with the profession. The solution though is not to change the wage of the job, but for women to simply choose another profession. If teaching give poor wages, go into a different field. I certainly think that women should be treated equally and they shouldn't "pay some penance" but maybe the best plan is to simply go where the most money is. Of course this is different for those who already are teachers, but for the people who are in college right now, job choice is very important.

        The Pharmaceutical sales problem described seems like an economic incentive instead of sexism. The only reason this ever happened was because a few women agreed to accept lower wages. If those women never agreed to be paid less than men, this wouldn't of happened. Although some employers would of been sexist in their hiring process, in this situation, the only reason the wage dropped was because women accepted it. I'm not saying that is just, but it is what happened. Males and females should be paid equally for equal work, but that is not going to happen if women sell themselves short and accept lower wages.

        And I am sorry if people have judged you or treated you poorly because of their religious beliefs. I am a Christian myself and I am familiar with the passage you mentioned. If a male is discriminating against a female because of his beliefs, I think that is unjust. He should treat both sexes fairly and equally. I believe that you have been personally hurt by this biased judgement; it isn't fair. I believe that the most fitting way to deal with this is by learning how not be like them. The Bible does say that men are supposed to protect their wives, but wives are also supposed to respect their husbands. We always need to be careful that we are actually going for equality and objectively seeking the best way to deal with these issues.
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          Jul 4 2012: Noah, you mentioned an excellent point, "Why do women accept lower wage?".

          I strongly believe that it can be a good starting point to reform and redefine the gender justice scope. The answer of this question is that women don't think of themselves as breadwinners and they expect their husbands to provide total household expenditure. Therefore they are satisfied with a low wage simply because they don't feel obliged to pay for cost of living.

          If we want to make progress in gender justice we should offer a plan which benefits both men and women tangibly. The responsibility for providing cost of living in a family is exactly where we can convince men that gender equality can improve their life too. I want to emphasize that we must subvert this old stereotype that men are primary breadwinners. If women have the same responsibility for living expenditure as men, they will never accept wage lower than men's ones. On the other hand, it can relieve the working pressure on men and they can enjoy the lower working hours per week.
      • Jul 5 2012: Debra,

        You are absolutely right about women using money wisely !!!

        On a serious note,both Men and Women are involved in life sustaining roles. Unequal wages may be cause of how our society has been for the past hundred of years.About equal wages, my first thought is that it is obvious and if the work involved is of equal importance , wages should be equal. I mean that wages should be based on the position value and not gender. And all positions should be open to all.

        A similar story has been doing the rounds about Maria sharapova and the new ruling that states that prize money in tennis will be same for Men and Women. In a recent debate one of the top 20 Men's player opposed the Idea. Here again I think that prize money shouldn't be on the basis of gender but on the premise that are women and Men Tennis matches equally compelling, heart warming, dramatic, entertaining or not ? If yes, then there should be no qualms about equal prize money.
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          Jul 5 2012: Dear Abhishek, (I hope that is proper in your culture)

          If we were paid ofn the 'value" of our work based on roles - no man could afford a woman. How much was it worth for your mother to give you life for example?
          Women and men see joint inputs quite differently, I have learned. Women in general according to the studies believe rewards for success should be equitable and men usually use the word equal but they practice some sort of proportionality. This is a foundational difference.

          As to women spendng money wisely, ask the world bank and major charities. Women are the ones getting the small loans now and they are changing the world with their innovations and industry. They do not drink away that money unless it is in milk that they share with their kids.
      • Jul 10 2012: Dear Debra (yes its fine everywhere I know of )

        About No man can afford a woman and the gift of life, How would my mother have given me that precious gift if it wasn't for My Dad ? Both genders are mutually dependent and equally important.And I can't agree that all men don't subscribe to equitable rewards.

        I don't think that I can subscribe to " affording women" and I believe not many men would. Women aren't commodities, nor are men. No gender can afford the other, but can and should respect, cherish and love the other.

        P.S - It wasn't sarcasm , I actually mean't that women use money wisely !!
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          Jul 10 2012: Dear Abhishek,
          You are complefely right, of course. Sometimes when making a point I have a tendency to overstate. I do think, after a huge amount of experience that my inputs into having my twins for example (who were 8 poungs 8 oz and 8 pound 14 oz at birth) was considerably more than that gasp I remember my then husband making! We may be mutulallly dependent but our inputs are not equal.
          We are not commodities no matter how often we are consdered in those terms. Thanks for making that so wonderfully plain!
          D
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    Jul 1 2012: In response to my take on this topic, J M asked me to define a woman's 'private hell'.

    I used the word 'hell' as a symbolism for oppression. Women all over the world are dealing with domestic violence, objectification, institutionalised inequalities and oppressive cultural/traditional practices.
    A woman may face one, all or none of these; and individual experiences are individual experiences.
    One may symphathise or emphathise with an oppressed fellow, but it is impossible for someone to feel a pain that is experienced in another person's body.
    That is why I called it 'private hell'; in order to make it clear that women in the developed nations are not in any way better than Middle-East, Indian, Chinese, or African women. Just like someone agonising over a toothache, is in no way better than someone who has just been shot in the foot with an AK47.
    An African proverb says 'Think twice if a ragged man promises you a beautiful cloth'.

    The effects of oppression on individuals do vary. In fact, the responses of oppressed individuals to oppression, varies.

    Sometimes oppression becomes fatal such that the oppressed could forget his or her original state of freedom. One will definately not notice the abnormal if one does not even know(or remember vividly) the norm.
    A tamed lion, a charmed snake, a castrated bull or a de-horned Rhino; are all different from an unaltered lion,snake,bull or rhino.
    Here, the animals are different. So their alteration is a form of 'private hell'.

    There is a gap between equality laws and attitudinal realities. Now, I refer to the attitude of men and women. The truth is that some nations have successfully created the illussion that women are free; while some other nations have made it clear that they are not.
  • Jun 30 2012: "progress in gender justice is (or should be) a benefit for all not a sum zero battle. "

    You have framed the equation inaccurately.

    Why you have is complex.
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    Jun 30 2012: I think capitalism is another accomplice. I am not an extreme socialist or something like that but I see how capitalists take advantage of mass media to encourage the women to squander on cosmetics, fashion and many other things that reinforce the traditional stereotypes of women. My impression is that in social democrat countries such as European countries the situation of women is better than liberal countries like USA. It is just my personal impression and I appreciate any debate on it.
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      Jul 1 2012: I think capitalism is big accomplice and that's another argument worth exploring. Sometimes the objectification of women in magazines or the representation of fathers and husbands as dumb and childish on TV shows is less about a political statement than it is about financial motivation. This does not make the problem any better, it just means that our spending power can be a very useful tool in shaping the way the media represents or addresses us.
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        Jul 3 2012: I am not so sure they area accompices as much as exploiters of the situation. Did you know that pharmaceutical jobs were really well paying and when they decided to reduce wage costs they admitted women into the field becuse they were so delighted todo the work they would work for much less. This speaks to one of David's main points, I think.
  • Jun 29 2012: The reason a 40-60 hour job is inadequate to raise a family is automation. A small farm used to support a large family. Now that small farm cannot compete against the big farms with the big equipment. The automation of manufacturing has reduced manufacturing skills to the level of flipping hamburgers. The gains from automation are reserved to the owners of the machines. When a single wage earner cannot support the family, the other spouse gets a job to help out. Now you have millions of people joining the work force, increasing labor supply and further decreasing wages. Automation certainly creates some higher level jobs, designing, manufacturing and maintaining the machines; but the net effect is that these machines save the owners a pile of money that used to be paid out in wages.
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    Jun 29 2012: Dany, you deserve kudos for generating such a constructive (and maybe cathartic) discussion on such a divisive topic. If you ever pick any other controversial topic - you will have all the support I can muster! Thank you.
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      Jun 29 2012: It's a privilege to be able to interact with such brilliant people as you guys. I'm just glad that there are people out there who like me, believe that we need to constantly reframe the way we approach social justice. Criticism of any social movement is necessary and I'm glad you guys are participating in it with me.
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        Jul 3 2012: The sad thing to me is there was always a strain of feminist thought that argued and understood that the gender norms and roles forced on men were as undermining of identity, personal development, happiness and joyful interaction with others as they were on women. The right generally managed to suppress that strain by elevating the angry separatist writers...who were handpicked I believe to play this role.

        My right to freedom, health and joy implies yours...and it is the rules that "our betters" write which make that hard to attain...not my desire to attain them...
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    Jun 29 2012: I actually like to reframe the issue of gender inequality, through the lens of workers rights. I feel like with both feminism, and civil rights, somewhere in the 80's we seemed to forget the goal. I know this is going to sound a bit akward, but I always thought the goal of both struggles, was to insist that a working human being, be treated with respect, and paid a living wage, which could raise a family.

    Basically, it seems like the dream used to be to give every working woman, and working member of a minority, the benefits, that at the time, were reserved for white men. It seems like the glut in the labor market, created by the feminist movement, and the civil rights movement, through no fault of their own, was used by corporations, to force us all to meet somewhere in the middle.

    I think this is why you see so much anger amonst, let's be honest, uneducated, white males in the south. They basically say "My daddy farmed a small plot of land, and fed a family of four... Now in my town, no one can feed a family of four on one job... What the hell did we do?". I think we need to have a bit more sympathy for that often incoherently expressed argument. While I must admit lots of people who think like that are racist, and or sexist jerks too, we shouldn't listen to them too much.

    If a woman wants to work 40-60 hours a week to have a career, that income should be enough to feed a family of four... same as a man... same whatever color you are... We seem nowhere near that in modern society, and the big winners... are corporations. We're making more stuff than we used to because of automation... So what's happening to the good jobs?

    The problem is that most men see this as "We got screwed"... Instead, we should look back and say "Nobody won... Somethings wrong here. I also think we need some full time parents to raise children, and take them to museums, and art galleries, but that decision should now be gender neutral.
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      Jun 29 2012: The main point of feminism is that the society must provide equal job opportunity for every individuals regardless to gender. Men in society must accept this truth that an occupation should be take by the person who have the higher eligibility and this person can be man or woman. We need inform society what was had being happened in the past did not fair and true and must be changed. Of course there will be a tough resistance against this change specially from traditional men who have a strong control over society. So I think the key to success is just raising the awareness of women and urge them to focus on their abilities and skills in order to make more and more contribution in high social positions not for struggle with men but rather for demonstration of true lifestyle of humankind.
    • Jun 29 2012: That's an excellent point David. My mom actually blames much of our current economic woes on women wanting to work. What people don't understand is that that view does not have to go hand in hand with the view that women are inferior. Just because women should be respected in the workplace doesn't mean that women should have to work to gain respect.
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        Jun 29 2012: I'm happy when talented and educated women wish to work and raise a family, their husband should learn to cook. I am not happy that no one can raise a family on a single income anymore, and worse, we've given it up as a pipe dream.

        No where in America can you work a 40-60 hour week and raise a family, unless you have a top tier degree. In almost every family the man works that long, and the woman works that long, and the child is raised by the television... We have robots and computers why do we work twice as much for less stuff?
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          Jul 3 2012: While I agree the labor/work/family issues need to be reintegrated and thought about more inclusively... and I agree with that deeply...It's tough for me to limit feminism to that single concern.

          Sex trafficking, rape, domestic violence-- though not limited to women - the persistence of invisible walls and ceilings, tokenism, differences in pricing and coverage, pay gaps, lack of sufficient representation in halls of power commensurate with numbers... the list is really long...of goals women and feminists seek to address...along with the fact that the middle class (or what call the working class) is being carved out so that there are two classes....those with infinite security and those with none.

          Globally - out of the reach of the concerns you point out - extreme poverty is the lot of most women and men....both pay a heavy heavy price. The price women and girls pay is quite different though...
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    Jun 27 2012: I feel that the door has hit me with this issue from both sides. In the early 1970s (i'll save you the math, I'm 56 - I was the first woman to take a skilled trade at GM in Canada.) It was a tough crowd.

    I got my trade and worked for 10 years. I paid off my first house and stayed home to have four sons and a daughter in the next ten years. My sons grew up and they are in one generation experiencing changes and decisions based on their anatomy that I faced based on mine. I hate it.
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    Jun 26 2012: The issue of gender inequality is a tricky one. Just like freedom or democracy. Freedom as a concept falls into a trap if it is recieved as 'living without any restraints'; just as democracy could fall into the trap of 'tyranny of the majority' as if anything is right as long as there are enough people to support it.

    Gender inequality persists because most of the proponents of gender equality are not sure what it entails, even though there is so much noise about it.
    The super-American feminists would want to 'save' the Middle-east/African women, even when women in the US are reduced to mere objects of sexual pleasure by popular culture.
    In the US, pornography is a multi-billion dollar industry, and most citizens would deny watching porn(as if the billions just flew off from some pit). Saudi Arabia does not have this kind of exploitation of women.

    Jesus Christ says in Luke 6:41-42 "And why worry about the speck in your friends's eye when you have a log in your own? How can you think of saying, 'friend,let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye, when you cant see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrites! First get rid of the log in your eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye."

    Women would need self-examination if gender equality is to be a reality. How do women react to the objectification of their kind? Are they enjoying all the attention?
    Sex sells, we are told. So, how will that image of a 'just a pretty face that helps to sell stuff', 'whore' , 'stripper' , 'seducer' , 'one of the spoils of a successful man' that has been created by the media, how will these images ever come to respect, let alone being able to 'save' the women of India or Africa?

    Any attempt to promote equality without careful consideration to determine what is morally right and what is morally wrong, is doomed to fail.
    In our world where things are taken as 'good' or 'great' as long as such brings money, I guess we are going nowhere slowly.
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      Jun 26 2012: "Women would need self-examination if gender equality is to be a reality. How do women react to the objectification of their kind? Are they enjoying all the attention?"

      this is a great point that you raise, because I've always asked myself that same question because we always say objectification is bad because men see us as nothing but sexual objects, but we never ask "do we (or at least some women) enjoy this attention? what does this say about the discussion surrounding objectification? After all, women have more buying power than men do at least when it comes to things such as clothing, cosmetics and magazines. What does it say about us if we are buying the very things which promote that which we condemn? Does this means we need to take responsibility in our participation in the problem, rather than blaming it on patriarchy?
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        Jun 27 2012: Your question reminds me about Betty Friedan quote: 'Men are not the enemy, but the fellow victims. The real enemy is women's denigration of themselves.'

        I believe most women unconsciously follow the rules of patriarchal world and reinforce the traditional stereotypes of a "good woman".
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          Jun 27 2012: very well said. It's an often overlooked fact, which is that women participate in the reinforcement of the very customs which they deem oppressive to their gender. that is yet another truth that we must acknowledge in our quest for gender justice, to admit that we are accomplices in the crime
    • Jun 27 2012: Saudi Arabia has porn sites, just as it has drinking establishments. Never in the history of humankind has making those things illegal stopped people from participating in them.
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      Jul 3 2012: Feyisayo - good questions... I think there are two strains of thought that are really at battle around women/sex/sexuality. It is tough to work on creating a sex-positive culture - and to de-commodify bodies and sexuality at the same time.

      You may not know this but nearly half of the consumers of porn in the US are women. They have a range of types of porn they like and watch.

      In trying to create a world where we can all be sexual beings and free people - while at the same time - not reduce it to just another thing to trade .... Well let's just say it's a very complicated issue. Puritainism and fundamentalism is not an interesting answer to the issues around this...as most women I know will reject those answers out of hand.

      I am actually more annoyed by a woman being used to sell a car, than a woman using her own body in porn to make a living if it's on her own terms. There are by the way many women owned film companies which make porn.

      It's important to note that different women have different answers for this and I am no more interested in submitting to a male authority on the subject than I am to submitting to say a conservative female on the subject.
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        Jul 3 2012: The book that we have discussed befoere clarifies the female porn link quite well. However, if women like me never use porn maybe I have no right to comment on this. I hate it when people give advice about books they have never read for a parallel.
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    Jun 26 2012: There isn't really any full blown inequality. Part of the reason why there is inequality is because women are downgraded in certain situations, but it is because they don't speak out as individuals.
    • Jun 26 2012: "....because they don't speak out as individuals"?!?!?!?

      What would happen to a women in Saudi Arabia, if she spoke out as an individual? What would happen to a woman within a corporate pyramid, if she spoke out as an individual?
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        Jun 26 2012: Here is a list of females to whom you can put that question:
        Brenda Barnes, CEO of Sara Lee
        Angela Braly, President and CEO of WellPoint
        Liz Claiborne, Chairperson and CEO of Liz Claiborne, Inc.
        Zoe Cruz, Co-President of Morgan Stanley
        Patricia Dunn, former Chairman of Hewlett Packard
        Annika Falkengren, CEO of SEB, Sweden
        Carly Fiorina, former Chairman and CEO of Hewlett Packard
        Linda Hasenfratz - CEO of Linamar
        Andrea Jung, Chairman and CEO of Avon Products
        Indra Krishnamurthy Nooyi, President and CEO of PepsiCo
        Anne Mulcahy, CEO and Chairman of Xerox
        Marianne Nivert, former CEO of Telia (now TeliaSonera), Sweden
        Irene Rosenfeld, CEO of Kraft Foods
        Patricia Russo, CEO of Lucent
        Güler Sabancı, CEO of Sabanci Group, Turkey
        Mary Sammons, President and CEO of Rite Aid
        Martha Stewart, former CEO of Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia
        Belinda Stronach, former President and CEO of Magna International
        Meg Whitman, former CEO of eBay
        Laura Wade-Gery, CEO of Tesco.com
        Clara Furse, former CEO of London Stock Exchange
        Thank you Ms. Pavis!
        • Jun 26 2012: edward, Are you under the impression that women are equally represented as CEOs? In the news today there was a report saying 3% of the CEOs are women. Where's the equality? Do you think it is fair that for the same work women earn 77% of what men earn? I think you are in denial of a real social problem that leaves our society imbalanced in ways that cause problems such as excessive wars, excessive poverty among women and children and way more. I guess the list you offered is a part of the 3%. Seems to me as though male design and male domination of all of our systems has proven to be a failure. If you want to live in a just, healthy, prosperous, happy, honest society, I think you might want to actively work towards male/female equality within every sector, e.g., corporations, religions, governments, the legal system. I presume you seek truth and justice and are not just trying to hang on to male domination of all of society's systems.
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          Jun 27 2012: Edward, could I add my own name, humbly? I was certainly one individual speeking out with the actions of my life even if no one was listening.
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        Jun 26 2012: Whoa there young lady! You read a lot into my 13-word contribution. FYI, I think the job should go to the best qualified candidate based on an objective, factual job description. Heck, I think the process should be blind to race, creed, gender, appearance, etc. I'm an olld white guy but I, and many like me, don't think anyone should be held down because of the mentioned parameters. Thanks for the free, unsolicited psychoanalysis. Is that a chip on your shoulder? Regarding the list I referenced, it was not that long ago that such a list would not have existed. Progress is being made and I hope it continues. Move me off the enemy list please. Thank you!
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        Jul 3 2012: Rhonda, I'm talking about this from a United States point of view. Women's rights in Saudi Arabia isn't really our problem now is it.
        • Jul 3 2012: Kevin. My name is Rhona. I am a full-time member of the human race. Equalizing power between males and females is an OPPORTUNITY to convert the majority of our planet's population from misery to joy. I would think you and edward long would want to be energetic participants in that. All males and all females have everything to gain. Let's do it. You can do at least one thing today to cause increased equality between males and females and I hope that you will be wise and wonderful enough to do that. MALES=FEMALES.
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          Jul 3 2012: kevin= WHAT????????????????? To both posts.
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        Jul 4 2012: Rhona, what exactly is it that you are asking me to do? Debra, Rhona replied to one of my posts basically saying that women in the middle east can't speak out as individuals and I responded by stating that I was looking at it from a U.S. citizens point of view.
        • Jul 4 2012: I am both a U.S. citizen and a member of the human race and an Earthling. You can view yourself any way you want to. Even in America, where women and life in general for the majority of the males and females is a happier and healthier experience than in countries where there is less equality between females and males, we are far from having equality of opportunity or power. I suggest you vote for women only until women have 50% of the power in all elected offices and then, if you feel like it, start voting for men. I am suggesting that you speak out, insist that your religion re-write their bibles and change their power structure, write letters-to-the-editor, write letters to your elected officials telling them that you understand the lack of equality between males and females is causing negative consequences within our society and world, e.g., wars, rape, oppression. Use your own imagination and creativity to come up with ways on your own to cause the equalization of power between men and women. Be sensitive, alert, aware, honest. Use your opportunities to cause female/male equality. It is important to human health, well-being, happiness. You'll see. You have power. Use it.
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      Jun 28 2012: Women want to have equality where they see men living the good life, but of the 526 people working in New York's Sewerage system, 521 are men. The remaining 5 include 3 women in admin positions and 2 lesbians who work with the men. I don't read articles about how we must level out these numbers, having at least 260 women working in the sewers. Why not? Or down the mines... or having equal numbers of men in nursery schools. Obviously I think men and women should not be discriminated against when applying for work...but if you're looking for equality, look for it everywhere and not just where it pleases you.

      That was addressed to no-one in particular.
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        Jun 28 2012: You couldn't have said it better.
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        Jun 29 2012: Respectfully, David Barnett, I have to wonder if the women are even allowed to know about those jobs. How many men did you see changing diapers when you were a kid? We are the original sewer workers!
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          Jul 1 2012: I'm sure you're right...we've been jealously guarding those wading through shit jobs for ourselves. But now that you know about them, spread the word.
      • Jul 3 2012: David, You want to start at the bottom or the top? Either way is okay. Let's just do it. Happiness awaits all females and all males as soon as our sisterbrother earthlings have equality throughout all systems.
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          Jul 3 2012: I agree. I'm all for equality, but I think we should fully recognize the differences between men and women and the specialized roles each have. Not even men doubt that women are better suited to the raising of young children. Women are so much better at communicating for a start...not to mention the advantages of breast milk. And there are some jobs that men are better at...but to say that these days is almost unacceptable. If they collaborate, all the better. I also accept that these roles are becoming less defined. I've looked after my kids at home until school age and held a full-time job. My wife looks after them in the evening and has a fulll-time job too. I do the cooking, the ironing and the cleaning. My wife washes the clothes (my timetable is better suited to housework). I still accept that my wife is better with the kids than I am...why can't women accept that men are better at other things and give them their due?
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        Jul 3 2012: Did you say you were all for equality with a straight face???
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          Jul 3 2012: Of course. What's your point? I'd be happy to elucidate.
      • Jul 4 2012: David, You seem to be trying to change the subject by talking about "differences." Everyone acknowledges that there are differences between males and females. That is not the issue. The issue is EQUALITY. MALES=FEMALES. I hope you now get that and appreciate the importance of FEMALES=MALES to the health, prosperity, well-being, happiness of ALL males and females. Let's deal with this issue directly....honestly.....openly. Our generation has the opportunity to convert our world into a just, happy place. Using truth, we can accomplish that goal within our lifetimes. May as well.
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          Jul 4 2012: I mention differences as these often lead to specialization in chosen jobs or housework...if 97% of nursery teachers are women, I think that is for a reason. When this happens with male-dominated jobs,this is often misconstrued as prejudice...and of men keeping women out. In many cases, this is just not so...and it is to those people only that I addressed my example of the sewer workers.

          Apart from that, I agree with you Rhona.
      • Jul 4 2012: David, In performing identical work, women receive 77% of the money that men receive. I think the issue here is justice, truth, fairness, what is good for society at large. Thank you for acknowledging the essential point. Vive la difference! That does not mean EQUALITY BETWEEN MALES AND FEMALES is not required for a healthy, prosperous, happy sociaty. I just thought our conversation would be more efficient, if we stuck to the issue. Sometimes people try to change the subject when they are uncomfortable with the truths they decline to acknowledge.
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          Jul 4 2012: In Spain all jobs all legally declared jobs are paid according to convenios, legal agreements, where women and men receive exactly the same amount for the same work. Which countries and jobs are you talking about? In my lifetime, I have only ever come across one case of a woman receiving a lower wage than a man for the same job, and that was my mother, a Spanish woman in England in the 1980s.

          Business people, wherever possible, will exploit any loophole to pay people less and they will do, if they can...if that person is foreign, is in a precarious situation or whatever...it is a disgrace that women are paid less than men for the same work and in these situations the employer should be jailed, quite frankly for doing so.
      • Jul 4 2012: David, I get the impression that you want to believe men and women in Spain have authentic equality. Read the statistics and you will find income inequality between males and females pretty much throughout the world. The northern European countries probably have the best record of FAIRNESS to women. Fairness is the issue, right?
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          Jul 4 2012: I know plenty of women who believe so and tell me so that women have equality, here in Spain and in Britiain. In my own experience, I have only ever come across one case to my knowledge of genuine wage inequality. What do you want me to do? Ignore all my experience, the evidence of my friends, eyes and ears? What statistics are you citing? I know of many cases where women have not been employed, or indeed, have been laid off when they get pregnant, especially in Spain, but none of wage inequality. What do I think of this? Well, obviously, it's a terrible thing. The people doing the sacking, however, are just as often women as men. They are small business owners who quite simply cannot afford to pay a person a wage for not producing anything. There need to be more State-enforced measures to make sure that they do not lose out when a worker becomes pregnant. As it stands, without state support, I can only sympathize with the employer and the employee. As the sex who becomes pregnant, the woman will always lose out. But it's not because she's a woman...it's because of money. When science takes over and men get pregnant, they will be the ones to lose out.
      • Jul 4 2012: Believe what you want to believe, David. Perception is selective. You are choosing what you want to focus on.