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Adam Cross

Editor - Newspaper, Swing Vote Chronicle

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Is feminism right or wrong?

Feminism is the act of a woman bettering the circumstances of other women both socially and economically.

However, why does the focal point of feminism revolve around the shortcomings of men?

Is feminism an example of sex discrimination? Does feminism represent the institutionalized use of anger and discontent to attack the morals of men as a whole by citing a few?

What are your thoughts, can anyone accept that feminism is rational if the merits of women are not themselves suitable?

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    Jun 23 2012: Adam,
    I asked two questions 4 days ago, and you replied to the first part....thank you for that.
    I have not found a reply to the second part, and I'm curious, so I will ask the question here, at the beginning of the thread so you may notice it....Why do you exclude the "Middle east and related countries" in one of your comments? I don't understand what "related countries" may mean to you regarding this topic.

    "Adam Cross
    4 days ago: I absoluty agree with you Colleen ii am just worried about the transition period. I am of course excluding the Middle East and related countries when I speak of women being treated equally."

    "Colleen Steen
    Reply4 days ago: Adam,
    Why are you worried about the transition period? We are in it right now....are we not?

    Why do you exclude the Middle east and related countries? Those may be some of the women who need our support the most."

    Again...you answered the part regarding transition period, which I subsequestly responded to. It would be helpful to know why you are excluding certain areas of our world.

    Your topic question asks...
    "Is feminism right or wrong? Feminism is the act of a woman bettering the circumstances of other women both socially and economically."

    You did not specify certain parts of our world, and it would be helpful to understand your intent regarding that part of the topic. Thanks
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      Jun 23 2012: Hi Coleen

      My question is what comes first a rule of law or education? I think it is education. The main purveyor of education is a culture. Cultures change over generations. So first of all you are talking about a long time to make the changes. Look at this country since the days of Gloria Steinum. Imo the women in the middle east are genuinely oppressed. In this country the whole women lib thing is a canard as I stated earlier. Here is the million dollar question why do the oppressed women of the middle east get priority when everyone including children are also oppressed???

      Real change will have to come from a PR campaign towards the benefits of education and jobs and higher standard of living without provincial thinking.

      Look at about 5 min into talk

      http://www.ted.com/talks/rory_stewart_time_to_end_the_war_in_afghanistan.html
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        Jun 23 2012: I totally agree with you Pat,
        Cultures change over generations, change takes a long time, there are many people throughout our world who are oppressed, change needs to come from many different angles...let us begin.
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        Jun 24 2012: Pat, women in middle east are oppressed than in any other place in the world. That society thinks educated womens are not good to be included in the family. Because they might wont look after the old family members and doesn't do the house holds like uneducated womens. So lot of womens are not able to marry from their country, because they are educated. And for the same reason most parents wont send their daughters for education, worrying about their marriage. Lot of womens stay isolated from society because of this reason. I read about this recently in an article. That culture wont change with time if we keep on waiting, because it haven't changed yet. Its way past the time when those believes should have changed if time could change them. And the women there, are not bold enough to fight for their rights and place in the society rather than cursing their fate. So if someone could give them a support and show a way to earn their rights they might put up a fight..
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          Jun 24 2012: Pranoy

          In those countries how are the rest of the people treated?

          From what I read the whole region is screwed up not to mention the rest of the continent. Why women's rights in particular?

          The proper tool for this problem is PR, the Madison ave boys are the ones to talk to about this problem, much more effective than a general Petraeus and and Abrams tank.
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          Jun 24 2012: Pat,
          You ask..."Why women's rights in particular?"

          Because that is the topic of this discussion. If you want to address the rights of all people, start that conversation. I do not percieve anyone on this thread denying the rights of ALL PEOPLE.

          While there are several men commenting, who seem very aware of the challenge and comfortable addressing the topic question, you appear not to be so comfortable with it.
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        Jun 25 2012: Pat,
        we are talking about the way people treating peoples. Nothing between government and people. In the case i said earlier, womens are not denied from the right for education legally. Its a culture that has to be changed not the laws first. We need to change that view of peoples about womens.. Women are beeing murderd there in the name of honor killings. A school head master was beheaded infront of his women students for teaching them.. And these domestic violences are not even treated as a murder. Men doesn't have these kind of restrictions on the other hand.
        Ofcourse a war would be a bad idea to change these scenario.. A war for peace is stupid. What needed is organising peoples there who are against all these discriminations and start a movement against it. I'm sure that majority of youth is against it and same time helpless.
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          Jun 25 2012: Pranoy

          Yes that is obscene but at the same time all citizens are being oppressed not just women. E.G. I have a friend who is from Iran he is of the Baha'i faith. His brother is in prison for life with conditions that will almost certainly kill him. What was his crime? He started a university. The Iranian government gave him a choice to renounce his faith or go to prison and certain death. Here is an individual who has more integrity than anyone I know.

          Imo the answer is a PR campaign to change the culture. As is obvious you are not going to change this culture with force but with the essences of PR which is good manners as is indicated by this awesome talk by Rory Stewart:

          http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/en/rory_stewart_time_to_end_the_war_in_afghanistan.html


          It occurs to me that the solution for all of this is this really esoteric skill of communication, I think we can all agree on that?

          Why doesn't this occur? Why? Why? because we don't wanna we want to grind our axes, we want to be right, we want to spew our dogma that has be planted in our skull when we weren't looking by a dubious 3rd party, because our culture put specious ideas in our skulls before we even knew to consider anything else. As Coleen says what we see is just a reflection of us.
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          Jun 26 2012: Yes Pat, that is one of my beliefs...that we are all like mirrors reflecting information to each other all the time. With each and every interaction, we are expressing what is in our heart and mind. Which leads to another one of my strong beliefs...we need to "BE" what we want to "SEE" in our world.

          I agree with you that information has been planted in our skull. As thinking, feeling adults, however, we have the opportunity to evaluate information, change some of our thoughts, feelings and patterns that are influenced by information. We can make different choices in each and every moment.

          Yes, I agree that how we communicate with one another is very important.
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      Jun 23 2012: Exactly the Middle East, Africa, and Burma are areas in which human rights are not seen as a priority or even an afterthought. In these regions feminism cannot exist at this moment because anyone involved would be killed or murdered. The economic and cultural situation must become stable for certain rights to become an issue. In the Middle East the religion is the dominant set of laws and women are seen as procreation tools, not human beings. But how do WE fix this? We can't, not right now. Maybe in 20-40 years, hopefully sooner, but the area is literally a battleground. Should we go to war to promote human rights? Should we kill to "teach" equality? What can we do in these places???

      Colleen I respect your viewpoints and your ideas but please do not quote me out of context.

      "However, why does the focal point of feminism revolve around the shortcomings of men? "
      Every feminist speech I have seen in my lifetime has been geared towards the faults of men when relating to women. That is why I asked the question.
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        Jun 24 2012: Adam,
        Your own definition in your opening introduction to this discussion:
        "Feminism is the act of a woman bettering the circumstances of other women both socially and economically."

        Feminism, as you define it, can exist anywhere, anytime, regardless of existing circumstances.

        Adam, you seem to be confused and confusing? First you say "In these regions feminism cannot exist at this moment because...."Then you ask "What can we do in these places? If you've already decided that "in these regions feminism cannot exist...", why are you seeking resolutions?

        "Where exactly do you feel you were quoted out of context?

        I am confused about what you are trying to gain from this topic conversation, and/or what direction you would like to take the conversation. As I stated in a previous comment..."In my perception, feminism does not have to revolve around the shortcomings of men, anger and discontent. I don't feel it necessary to devalue one group of people in order to elevate another group.
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          Jun 24 2012: I was replying to your question concerning the Middle East and related regions i.e. Africa, portions of Southeast Asia, and in regions which are in such a state of disrepair that human rights do not exist period.

          You said in a previous comment that the women in these areas need our help the most. I was addressing the question " how would we help these women, that is why I excluded it from the topic.

          The transition period worries me because if the goal is reached and the movement continues then the movement will either evolve into A) a discriminatory faction or B) a dormant but observant organization. As long as feminism is lacking organization I foresee it becoming the former, it is not the ACLU or the NAACP.

          This is where you quoted me out of context
          "Is feminism right or wrong? Feminism is the act of a woman bettering the circumstances of other women both socially and economically.--

          --Which was followed by--
          "However, why does the focal point of feminism revolve around the shortcomings of men?"

          I do quite a bit of reading so let me show you two current events I found today.
          NOTE: I was not looking for feminist related material when I found these articles.

          http://grist.org/population/why-womens-needs-must-be-part-of-the-conversation-at-rio/

          http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2012/06/22/can-women-have-it-all

          Please read these if you have the time and we will discuss them.
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        Jun 25 2012: Adam,
        Your words seem confusing. We cannot help someone and exclude them at the same time.

        With an open mind and heart in all of us, "the movement" may evolve into equality for all people.

        Adam, I quoted exactly what you wrote and used it in appropriate context.

        Re: The links you provided:
        I agree...women's needs must be part of the conversation, and men are a valuable part of the conversation as well....WHEN/IF we can all have the conversation with respect, and intent to find solutions, rather than create more disharmony.
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          Jun 25 2012: Feminists promote women rights not human rights. When did family planning become a women only issue and when did it become relevant to a summit dedicated to climate and economic issues? What I have been trying to say for two weeks is that as long as women exclude men then men will exclude women. Why is this so difficult to understand? What would you say if I fought for the equal treatment and rights of white people only, would this be right? What if I started a group fighting for the rights of men, making statements like "Men are being taken for granted in the household." "Men do not receive maternity leave for helping his wife bear a child." Does this seem appropriate?

          Equality does not come out of fighting for one side! It comes from fighting for both sides. You cannot dismiss extremist actions as merely what happens.

          Colleen Are you forgetting my previous posts?

          Adam-
          "In the Middle East the religion is the dominant set of laws and women are seen as procreation tools, not human beings. But how do WE fix this? We can't, not right now. Maybe in 20-40 years, hopefully sooner, but the area is literally a battleground. Should we go to war to promote human rights? Should we kill to "teach" equality? What can we do in these places???"

          Colleen-
          "First you say "In these regions feminism cannot exist at this moment because...."Then you ask "What can we do in these places? If you've already decided that "in these regions feminism cannot exist...", why are you seeking resolutions?"

          Adam-
          "I was replying to your question concerning the Middle East and related regions i.e. Africa, portions of Southeast Asia, and in regions which are in such a state of disrepair that human rights do not exist period."

          Colleen-
          "We cannot help someone and exclude them at the same time."

          I have addressed the question "What should we do?" and have not yet received an answer.
          Also you didn't address the second article on "Having it all."
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        Jun 25 2012: Adam,
        It feels like you simply want to argue. I have been saying throughout this thread that men and women need to work together with respect. I'm not sure what it is about that statement you do not understand. This conversation is going nowhere, with your confrontational approach.
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          Jun 25 2012: Colleen I am looking for answers to these questions but instead my questions are put into question. I do not want to argue I want an answer. If looking for answers to questions is too much I will end my participation in this discussion today because out of 117 comments I have only seen statements of belief and past actions. We CANNOT justify wrongs committed today by citing wrongs that were committed in the past.

          In all seriousness Colleen forgive me for my tone I hold respect for you and your opinion and I do not intend to come off as confrontational. However, I hope you understand my viewpoint. I feel that I am asking legitimate questions and I become frustrated when answers become elusive.
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        Jun 26 2012: Adam,
        I asked questions to try to clarify some of your statements. Unfortunately, I do not have all the answers, and I feel that exchanging some of our thoughts, feelings, ideas, opinions and beliefs often helps us to find more answers together.

        I do not want to regurgitate the past either. I mentioned the information regarding the women's suffrage movement because you stated that "feminism" began in the 1970s. I believe that an active movement started around the world almost 100 years prior to that, with women working toward getting the right to vote, and working toward better conditions in the workplace. Sometimes, it helps to be clear regarding where we have been, to know what steps we can take to improve conditions.

        I have nothing to "forgive" you for Adam because I didn't "blame" you for anything. It is apparent that the comments presented so far are not what you are looking for, and I have simply been trying to the best of my ability to understand how to address your topic in a way that might be acceptable and/or useful to you. I am, of course, not striving to be elusive, but rather, seeking clarification of your questions and comments.
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      Jun 23 2012: What's worse is that I have worked for feminists and they blatantly discriminated against the other male workers. That isn't equality, and it is just one of my experiences, but I don't blame all women for it. So I'll ask again, is feminism right or wrong? Does feminism teach women that discriminating against men is acceptable? Are men an oppressive force in today's society in America 6/23/2012
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        Jun 25 2012: Seems like a rhetorical question.

        In part it is like asking is racism by the oppressed back against the more powerful acceptable. Of course not. Understandable? Perhaps.

        You have successfully highlighted that there is some negative coming back the other way.

        My view: Feminism that supports equality is a positive.

        If they are teaching the facts about history and the current situation fine. Promoting hatred not fine.

        In regards to discrimination, perhaps there is a role for it to address some inequalities, but as little as possible. Blatant hateful discrimination and sexual going both ways is not acceptable.

        We have come a long way, but are women still paid less for the same roles and service? Are there still attitudes that a woman's place is in the home? Are women still sexually assaulted? Are women under-represented in positions of power? Do women still feel there is some discrimination, with evidence?

        There is more to it than getting the vote and removing legal discrimination. But agree it should not go too far in the other direction.

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