- Devon Gisbert
- Patchogue, NY
- United States
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What happens after we die?
People will often wonder, well what happens after we die? Everyone has asked this question at least once in their life it would be foolish to deny that. And it's funny because, well I mean it's pretty self explanatory we die, there's a big funeral (most of the time) people come and mourn over your body then they dig a hole and put you in it. We have SEEN what happens to people when they die and we can go to the nearest grave yard and have a whole post death stake-out.
But if that's the case then why is it that we ask that question? Why is it that seeing what happens after we die isn't enough for us? We know what happens after we die, yet when the philosopher, the teacher, the artist, the scientist, and the homeless man the lays there head down at night they wonder. Is this all there is, is this all I'm good for, just this life and then I vanish?
Ecclesiastes 3:11 it says "He has made everything beautiful in it's time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end."
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Hilal Halil
Actually it's like this: God don't want us to do bad things, but God created devil and badness, wickedness. But it's an exam. If there weren't any bad things, then life couldn't be an exam, so there wouldn't be ahiret life.
daniel hehir 20+
I've tried talking to Christians about the idea of reincarnation. But traditional thinking Christians are generally speaking closed to the idea, even though it is spoken of in the Bible. There are places in the Koran where reincarnation is mentioned. What do you think about reincarnation?
The black and white picture that most religious people have in their minds of heaven and hell seem like too simple a picture. The exam idea for example. If I was in school, taking many many exams. Then I of course will fail some and pass some.
To see reincarnation as a continuation of a spiritual evolution in a much larger picture seems much more logical to me than the whole concept of heaven and hell.
Besides, ...who would like to sit in heaven having a good time while your neighbor, your friend, even your own family member is condemned to hell....?? That in itself would be a hellish experience. I feel suffering in my self just when I open the newspaper and see all the suffering around in the world. People starving, being killed by violence and natural disasters. Where does it all end..?
Hilal Halil
Actually, I know nothing about Bible's verses. I believe Bible but ,you know, Bible was changed, and it has many different versions. So I'm not sure about Bible's correctness (about some topics). And you should read Koran to understand if reincarnation is true or not. But it opposes with Koran. If you haven't read yet, please read it, then you can understand better:))
daniel hehir 20+
I have read parts of the Koran and have found several references to reincarnation. I'll get back to you later with them. Have to run just now
daniel hehir 20+
http://www.adishakti.org/_/reincarnation_in_islam.htm
John Dunbar 10+
Yet he loves you?
Your saying, God creates a situation where he leaves no proof of his existence, except a book written by men. He then says believe that I am all powerful. Yet he leaves not a shred of proof that this is so and by your definition would never do this, because it would leave no reason for heaven or hell.
Does this sound like a plausible story about the all loving creator of the universe?
You say men do bad things, but you believe God created man. Then therefore, God created men and allowed for men to be evil. Hence god created evil men and allowed for their evil deeds to be perpetrated.
Wouldn't this mean that God is at least partially evil?
I don't mean to be antagonistic, but I am flabbergasted that a friendly person like you would worship somebody who turns their life into an exam, which if failed gets punished by an eternity of torture.
Hilal Halil
And I'm telling you again: A man can't write Koran, can't write the scientific knowledges inside it, even in that century's conditions. And you should read Koran, then you can understand it, Koran was sent to all the world. I'm not trying to change your believes, but I think everyone should learn all the religions, then choose one. It can't be a man work, it's obvious. There are miracles that are true. I'm writing it again: Pharaoh in Koran was found, its in museum now. And don't forget this, too: Noone have to believe God in world life, God left this selection to us(believing or not believing). Actually, they are certain evidences, but noone have to believe. I chose believing it. World life so exam life probably takes 70 years, but the other is endless. But please, don't tell things without reading. Please search Koran verses on net at least, I think there are translations in English. Read them, the ones that are about devil, devil has a story, there's a story about how evil started. Please, read it, and then consider your opinions again. Try to comment them. I'm not a theologian. The truest knowledge will be the real ones. I hope I could explain:))
daniel hehir 20+
Could you be a little more specific about the "science" in the Koran.
"Miracles" could also be of interest...
please be concrete. It would be helpful. I don't know what you mean by the Pharaoh story
John Dunbar 10+
Every single creation story ever written, has miracles that are performed by said prophet.
You also stated that the Koran was sent to all of the world. Well this has only been possible post the invention of the printing press. The printing press came into existence around the year 1440. What about the people of North or South America who had absolutely no ability to read the Koran?
I have not read the Koran but i have read passages that make me cringe.
Especially the part about the prophet Mohammed, taking a 6 year old as his wife.
I have one more criticism then I am done for this post. If God can't interfere in this life why bother praying?
I will have to read the Koran, its something i have always wanted to do. Point taken.
daniel hehir 20+
I read your comment above and thought I could give a little response to it.
Now, the real question you ask is "What is the purpose of evil?" or the "meaning or mission of evil?"
What encompasses this question has to bring into focus the question of freedom. To be truly free, one has to have the choice of good and evil. Now, many may argue that evil is a psychological construction that we call things we don't necessarily approve of. Either as a culture or as individuals. For example, some cultures say that it is an "evil" to kill. This is always of course considered within a "context" of what reason one should kill for and what conditions would then allow for the decision to take the action to kill another person. Some external conditions would in fact demand the conclusion to kill another human being. So the conditions surrounding the action always have to be taken into consideration ... regardless of what the "dogma" "though shall not kill" would demand. With a little imagination, one can conceive of such a condition where one would be forced to kill another human being.
Freedom is the central question here though. We are free beings. We examine and reexamine our choices in whatever we choose to do. With this element of freedom we can always evaluate the external conditions which "impel" us to action rather than "compel" us.
We could spin off on a discussion of "free will" here. But lets try to follow Hilal.
John Dunbar 10+
I was asking why a God figure who loves us would invent the atrocities i listed. If he has total control, why not just tell everyone why he was doing this. Seems like that would be more effective and caring vs having a book written by some men 2,000 years ago as the sole proof of his existence.
I would quickly like to add that not everyone has the ability to examine, or reexamine there thought process. Many people are slaves to their impulses and behave in ways that are very self destructive. This may be chemically induced. Also, many people have never been subjected to introspective techniques and would have never thought of employing them. We are not built to see ourselves.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
daniel hehir 20+
To be honest, I don't think we can even fathom the word "love" in terms of Gods love. In ancient Greece the had 4 words / types of love ... eros, agape,philia and storge. Agape is perhaps the closest we can come to our definition here. At least that's the form most Christians consider to be the closest. However, even this is sure not even close to what we are talking about here. As many who have spoken of NDE's have said, ... its a hundred times more powerful that what we can imagine.
The problem of evil doesn't have to challenge the idea. But the overriding factor is the singular aspect of freedom. Without freedom nothing of it makes sense.
Freedom is and has to be present for this puzzle to come to any logical conclusion. Without it then I have to agree with you. There could not be an "all loving God" without this aspect. Neither could I ever understand the conventional / traditional way of looking at heaven and hell. They do not make sense to me. There have been millions of people that have lived long before Jesus and Mohammad. What about them..? What about children? People who cant read or write. People who are handicapped..? One cannot find answers to these questions when one looks at "eternal damnation" for punishment for what... not be able to read the Koran / Bible... It simply cannot make sense. ... traditional religious thinkers will say that God has an answer for that too...well and good, but there seems to be a shortage of answers in the religious corner when posed this question.
The same goes for abused children, abused wives, slaves, etc. etc. There seems to be a shortage of answers here. Why does the "all loving God allow this to happen. It's a damn good question. What is the meaning of evil...?
I live in Norway.... It's a very relevant question here these days..
Stewart Gault 30+
I think there are far too many coincidences within the bible for it to even be considered in the slightest bit as anything other than one man's will to dominate over his less educated people. Is it too strange to notice how a god on one hand says do not murder, yet later in the same book says for the people to murder homosexuals, adulterers, blasphemers and women who marry and aren't virgins. Then it just so happens, that god temporarily suspends the no murder rule so that the Israelites can commit full genocide to the Midionites and the Amalekties. Surely anyone with an ounce of reasoning would rather agree that these are the results of an evil man's want to rule over a set of people and he does so by evoking the name of a god who by if they deny god's will they suffer in hell, instead of the will of an all loving god who doesn't take sides and loves everyone.
Or that virgin births seem to be a part of every religion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_births Is
Everyone's an atheist, no one believes in Apollo, or Cthulhu, or Horus or Ra, we just ask that you are consistent and go that one god further.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I understand the free will argument. It is still rather perverse to think a god set up the universe this way with animal instincts and selfishness battling cooperation. Seems more a natural selection outcome.
Freewill partially addresses human evil, maybe even indifference. It didn't have to be this dog eat dog world if created.
It doesn't explain earthquakes and disease and the crappy lives humans have eked out for most of our existence. It doesn't explain parasites that make you go blind.
I understand the love can be defined in many ways e.g. tough, romantic, unconditional etc. Hell doesn't seem very unconditional.
Which brings us to the problem of god being an evil overlord in some traditions like the bible. God throws a hissy fit then first time Adam makes a mistake. To err is human. God wipes out the entire human race with the flood. God required animal and a human sacrifice. God took sides with the Hebrews etc.
From a Theist view the problem of evil is about whether there is an all loving, all powerful, all knowing entity and it created this universe including hell and us knowing the result.
I suggest evil is simply the result of the natural and God is unable to prevent because God does not exist.
daniel hehir 20+
There was a lot packed in that last comment!
Freedom is one key word. Development is another. We are all undergoing a constant development. An evolution you might say. .... a spiritual evolution ... not just a physical one.
Evil is in a way the counter force. The force that we must continually work against. But how do we recognize the evil, .. that's the good question !
Instead of going into a polarity type of argument, where you seem to "personify" God as some old man on a thrown up in his heaven... I will choose to take a different approach.
I have to agree that there are many points you bring up that are not understandable. So I won't stand here with any "dogma package" and say things like earthquakes are Gods punishment to a people or a nation. That to me is ridiculous. I think also that people that propose such ideas, particularly conservative Christians and Muslims are way out on a rotten logical limb.
But I try and have always tried not to let others misconceptions get in the way of me making my own judgments and working out my own truths. The world is full of misconceptions, in the religious as well as the scientific. And again, to simply believe something without any logical connection in my own doubting mind, has never been a part of my philosophy. So, in many respects, we are skeptical, the both of us. It's an important mental tool to have. Deciphering all the "input" from the outer world would be a total disaster without this healthy tool of a strong degree of skepticism.
I guess life has its different paths for all of us. At the age of 18, it could have been me writing exactly the same things as you are writing here. I felt I was pushed into a corner by certain friends that had become "born againers" and it really turned me off to at least "that" way of seeing the world. So I started searching other places.
Back to the point of the discussion .... lets see, what was it again....Life after death, .. yes