- Devon Gisbert
- Patchogue, NY
- United States
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What happens after we die?
People will often wonder, well what happens after we die? Everyone has asked this question at least once in their life it would be foolish to deny that. And it's funny because, well I mean it's pretty self explanatory we die, there's a big funeral (most of the time) people come and mourn over your body then they dig a hole and put you in it. We have SEEN what happens to people when they die and we can go to the nearest grave yard and have a whole post death stake-out.
But if that's the case then why is it that we ask that question? Why is it that seeing what happens after we die isn't enough for us? We know what happens after we die, yet when the philosopher, the teacher, the artist, the scientist, and the homeless man the lays there head down at night they wonder. Is this all there is, is this all I'm good for, just this life and then I vanish?
Ecclesiastes 3:11 it says "He has made everything beautiful in it's time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end."
Vida Bee
Gray ELLIOTT
Roy Bourque 20+
My question has always been, what happens while we live? Since I can't cheat death, I wanted to make the most of the life I had. I have been at odds with religion my whole life, but that hasn't stopped me from asking the question. Religious experience has kept me rooted in a belief in God, but has also caused me to question everything that religion has to say about God, because my experience tells me that religion doesn't know who or what God is.
I have read a lot of literature; the Holy bible, mythology, Eastern philosophy, mysticism, Edgar Cayce, history of religions, near death experiences, ancient wisdom, etc. I also have a basic background in physics, chemistry, electromagnetic and electrical generation theory. I am also familiar with cosmology and evolutionary ideas. I took a course in general psychology. I have had several epiphanies. I am aware of the conservation of matter and energy. I believe that there may be a conservation of consciousness as well. What that means, I couldn't tell you. What I believe is that our individual consciousness is as a drop of water. It comes from the ocean of consciousness, and when we die, it returns to the ocean of consciousness.
According to teachings on the akashic records, the universe has a memory. "Edgar Cayce on the Akashic Records" by Kevin J. Todeschi gives an account of one man's glimpse into this world. According to Ecclesiastes 12:1-7, when we die, the body returns to the earth, and the spirit returns to the one who gave it. According to Jesus (Matthew 22:23-32) when we die, we are as the angels in heaven. What that means I don't know. If we have lived before, we have no remembrance of it. Although I have a friend who says that when her daughter first began to speak, she kept talking about what happened to her when she was big. Eventually the thoughts faded, but it leaves me to wonder. Edgar Cayce said that life was a river. I believe he was on to something.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
If the hell he created is real.....
A place of eternal torment where those who do not follow the ordained path....
Then we should simply stop having children.
If you really believe in god, in hell, then by having children, with no guarantee they will be saved, you are complicit in risking a human soul to eternal damnation and suffering.
It is not worth the risk of giving birth to a human soul if they may suffer eternal torment.
This seems to me to be a logical conclusion to the dilemma of hell.
You may be able to save your self, but we many do not believe, do not become Christians, many will go to hell.
If you are pregnant it is better to abort then give birth assuming God does not send the innocents directly to hell for original sin.
I'm serious. Think about it. Hell is eternal suffering, unending torment. Forever.
I don't know how many times I've heard Christians state Pascals wager. They suggest if there is even a small chance the Christian god is real and eternal damnation is real, then it is better to be a Christian even if not completely sure. Eternal damnation is an infinite punishment. So no matter how unlikely, they believe you should logically choose Christianity.
Then the same logic should apply to believers. The joy of having children, the benefits for you and the soul you bring into this mortal coil are far outweighed by the risk they may rebel or simply not believe and end up suffering for an eternity in the hell God created.
daniel hehir 20+
You seem to be tumbling deeper and deeper into some kind of self constructed (il)-logical labyrinth.
You seem to let yourself follow down the road of such ideas as eternal hell, eternal damnation and suffering. You can choose to reconstruct those concepts. Fill them with new meaning.. a more realistic meaning. Another meaning than the one you have gotten from the conservative Christian corner. By always polarizing your arguments in this way, you only strengthen your own antipathy, ... and not towards finding your own truth.
If "their" concept of hell is misconstrued ... why then do you continually go into an attack position on a so misconstrued concept of hell..??
There is no such thing as an eternal hell Obey. The conservative Christian idea of it is misconstrued.
Are you really out here just to set them all on the right path...? There are a lot of conservative Christians and Muslims out here for just the same purpose.... to proselytize There is always the danger of falling into the opposite pole... As Richard Dawkins is always proselytizing to "save" the world from the "believers"
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Firstly that it is better not to exist than go to hell. Better not to have children if there is a risk they will suffer infinite eternal punishment.
Secondly, what this means about their God. This is simply divine terrorism. Evil.
If it is simply a human construct it is still using fear as a religious tool.
What is wrong with exploring their belief from inside the bubble? I doubt this will even create a small chink in the armour of religious programming and making things fit. However, if a few people read this and realise that a deity that has committed global genocide once (Flood), and has created a reality so that billions will suffer for eternity, is cruel to say the least, they might question the rest of it.
For the Christian who don't take the bible literally, but still give it credence undo.
I'm not trying to convert anyone. Just testing ideas. So what if I was, if just through conversation not through child programming or force.
I support freedom for people to have religious beliefs. I do have a problem when faith based beliefs impact others. I also have no issue challenging faith based beliefs in principle given faith is not a very good method for discerning fact from fiction and impacts many lives.
I haven't seen any compelling evidence for hell, or any god for that matter. But live in a world where others do.
There was a time when I was a born again and anguished that family and friends were going to hell if this was true. So the idea does much harm if it is not true. But that's a different argument.
What does it mean if it is true. Seems a valid question to me. Christian ask me all the time what if you are wrong. I'm just exploring what if they are right.
It does not impact other beliefs, just those where a creator created hell and humans knowing they will go there.
daniel hehir 20+
... sounds like a phobia to me ....
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Sounds like you have a phobia about my perceived phobia.
Which bit is illogical?
1. Some Christians assert a doctrine of eternal suffering in hell if you reject their beliefs. If they are right then it might be better to avoid procreating because of the risk of our children rejecting the teachings and burning in hell forever.
2. A deity that creates conscious beings in a scenario it knows will result in billions suffering for eternity is evil.
I don't know of any compelling evidence supporting the doctrine of hell as being correct. But I can point out some obvious conclusions to those who believe it is true. Why do my comments concern you so much if you don't believe in hell either?
Colleen Steen 500+
I agree with both of you.
Obey, your comment reminds me of when I had babies. I was young (20 at the time of the first birth and 23 the second time), and had 19 years of catholic dogma behind me. Even though I felt certain of my beliefs (or lack of), as did my husband, we had the kids baptized. Why? Because it was expected by our families, and it was easier to go through the process than argue with family members.
On another level, I believe there was the information that had been programmed since I was a child...if the child dies and is not baptized, s/he does not go to heaven. S/he goes to some other ungodly place for eternity. Even though I did not believe in the dogma on many levels, there was still the programming.
I wanted to be a good mother. What if...something happened to my child and s/he died? So, I wanted to hedge my bet and they were both baptized. There! Bases covered...good mom!!! Thankfully, they are both alive and well:>) That was the only religious practice I ever did with my kids. They sometimes went to various church services with relatives or friends when/if they wanted to.
Daniel, you make a good point too. We can indeed reconstruct those concepts and reprogram ourselves. What we focus on expands. I agree with you Daniel... if a certain concept is misconstrued, why continue to argue against it? I agree with you Daniel...there is no such thing as hell. To threaten eternity in hell if a child is not baptized is a way to control, dominate and abuse people. To spend time arguing about it simply gives the concept fuel to exist.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
As a Christian I also worried about others.
As an atheist I have been politely threatened by Christians and the odd Muslim with eternal damnation.
I'm glad there is no evidence for it, but the hell doctrine points to some significant issues.
I take your point on reinforcing it. Probably enough said for now, but reserve the right to contribute later. Others can make up their minds about the value of the conversation so far and points raised.
Colleen Steen 500+
The concept of hell does indeed have a profound impact on people, how they live their lives and fear death. Fear almost always has a profound impact, and as I'm sure you realize, fear is often consistantly influencing the way some people act and react in our world.
As you know, I do not label myself, and at this time, with the information and experiences I have, I do not believe there is a god, hell, or judgment at the end of this life. My experience with the NDE, and the review of my lives, is that I was very aware of the usefullness (or not) of my life experiences.
I have many friends and family members who embrace various religious and philosophical practices and beliefs, and we've had indepth conversations on the topic many times. They live their lives with integrity, and never seem to have the need to try to convert me, because they apparently observe that I live my life with integrity as well.
Other than the catholic indoctrination in schools for 12 years, TED conversations is the first experience where I've been threatened and warned about eternal damnation. I have never before had the experience of addressing this topic with fundamentalists/extremists, and I find it very educational as far as realizing more about what is happening in our world.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
In West Europe the power of the Catholic church has reduced and societies values have moved more toward human rights. Christianity is still powerful more or less depending on the country but a lot of the nasty elements have nearly burnt themselves out over the centuries as society, science and secular reasoning have developed. Not too many witches murdered these days but plenty in the past. Freedom of religion also applies to witches or wiccans these days.
The US constitution is an amazing document. Credit to the founding fathers that they recognised the value of prohibiting the establishment of a state religion. Even if the driver was around the dangers of different Christian sects competing, it has allowed reasonable freedom of religion and from religion to be protected.
There are still various literalists, fundamentalists, and evangelicals, but the enlightenment values have been absorbed even by believers and it is rather uncouth these days to assert someone is going to hell, or blaming the victims in a natural disaster because their god is punishing them for support homosexual rights etc.
Some major denominations have moved away from the hell doctrine but it persists with others. Some of these in discussions have asked me what if I'm wrong about there not being god and do face judgement and hell. As part of this discussion I've turned it around and asked what if they are right and god created a hell where many of his creations will suffer for eternity.
I'm glad in general it doesn't come up that often these days. And the less it is indoctrinated in children the better. But it is still there lurking along with afterlife concepts that are used as part of the motivation for terrible acts.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
It doesn't hold as much power as we are aware of so many religions that our cultural religion is just one of thousands and science explains much that was previously the domain of gods. Religions seem to most powerful amongst the ignorant, poor, and least human rights and democratic.
These days for many it is a big negative because we have developed enlightenment values and recognise any being that makes conscious beings suffer for eternity for finite trespasses is simply evil with the power and the will to do worse than the most evil human.
Roy Bourque 20+
There is a term in psychology known as negative reinforcement or avoidance behavior; if you make the penalty of a crime so severe, it acts as a deterrent against committing the crime. It was capitalized by the Catholic Church to curb unrighteous living. The idea of eternal torment is based on the fact that certain activities will ALWAYS result in negative consequences. The idea that a soul will suffer for all eternity was a teaching promoted to secure the authority of the church. The former it true, the latter is not.
You have ample reason to question everything that the church teaches because much of it is rooted in false notions that never got rooted out. I feel your disdain for religion. I detest Pascals wager. Jesus said that many would do the things that he did. My rebuttal to a Christian is simple; show me the miracles and I will hear what you have to say. If you can't, then go do your homework and don't come back until you can. I haven't been condemned yet.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I have a rule of thumb test, would I do this if it became known to others. A divine big brother, or even the spirits of the departed keeping watch is almost an extension of this.
Helen Hupe 30+
How do you distinguish between and inorganic matter. Seems like it takes one to move the other.
Stewart Gault 30+
And in case you're interested on how to get from inorganic to organic google Abiogenesis
Helen Hupe 30+
daniel hehir 20+
I fully agree that there are a lot of contradictions in the Bible. Especially between the Old and New Testament. Even in the NT there are many contradictions. I believe that the Bible as well as the Koran are a great deal constructed by man. Otherwise, I've got nothing against lots of different gods. Monotheism doesn't necessarily have to have the last say in the matter ... or do you mean it does. I guess all others are pagan worshipers...?
As you are mentioning the virgin birth. This I also see in a different light than most conservative Christians..
Has it ever occurred to you that the "virgin" has nothing to do with sexuality but rather a "pure" being....
Stewart Gault 30+
daniel hehir 20+
There is a lot of weird stuff in the OT.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
daniel hehir 20+
That was very interesting. Wasn't the gospel of Judas excluded from the Bible? Isn't it from the discover of the Dead Sea Scrolls?
It seems like the gospels that didn't fit in with the mode of thinking of that time were simply dismissed as heresy. I wonder if the idea of reincarnation is found in the gospel of Judas...
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Mary, Thomas, Phillip, Judas etc. It was a rather haphazard process getting the bibles we are familiar with today. It wasn't a planned process.
Most the books of the New Testament were written over a period of nearly a century, and had some status by AD200. Then it took another century or so to lock in what is now the Bible. My understanding is there was a lot of debate on whether to include some books e.g. Revelations, 2 Peter etc.
It is funny, now many Chritsians gloss over the old testament, but this is all the early Christians had for decades and oral stories.
The bible also differs depending on what sect. The Protestant bible is missing Maccabee, Wisdom, Sirrach and Tobit found in the Catholic and Eastern Ordodox. Eastern Orthodox has a couple more on its own.
I can barely remember what happened a few months ago accurately, yet most of the new testament was written decades after Jesus died.
The fact that the books have barely changed for 1,000 years is notable. The fact that different sects have different bibles is a worry. The process of development and consolidation seems rather haphazard and arbitrary. It does not say much for the authority of the new testament.
The Muslims did a far better job with the Qua-ran, except for the Pagan bits.
Helen Hupe 30+
Colleen Steen 500+
daniel hehir 20+
"Gia" theory is going in this direction. Although I know very little about the idea.
To look at the earth as a "living organism itself" is not so strange. As we sleep an awaken from sleep can be seen as parallel with the earth's seasons of winter and summer.
Summer being when the earth is asleep ... Winter is when it is awake...
Strange thought to many I'm sure.
At first glance one would think the opposite is the case. That the earth is awake in the summer months, due to the activity of the plant life.
Also the winter on the one side of the earth is at the same time summer on the other side of the planet.
Stewart Gault 30+
Liam it probably gets its name from that, most likely Gaia means Earth so goddes of earth is called earth and then earth theory.
Liam Hollands
Colleen Steen 500+
While I am not familier with the terms and theories you speak of, at the time of the NDE, I experienced the earth, universe and beyond, as all interconnected with energy. Stewart, didn't you say in another comment, that there may be types of energy we have not yet discovered?
The experience I had with the NDE is that EVERYTHING is interconnected/interdependant. Which is one reason, I have difficulty with people insisting that their religion is the one and only...their god is the one and only, and if we don't believe in their choice of religion/god we are going to hell. This is so contradictory to what I experienced with the NDE, and it only serves to seperate and control people...in my humble perception.
Stewart Gault 30+
Colleen Steen 500+
There are a lot of similarities. In fact, that is how I was introduced to TED a couple years ago. A friend who is a psychologist recognized similarities with Jill Bolte Taylor's and my experience, and he sent me the link to her talk:>)
Angela Greenslade
Hilal Halil
You can read some books against evolution. I havent read them yet but there are Adnan Oktar's books. Evolution's deadlock is soul.
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Colleen Steen 500+
Each of us will embrace the beliefs we are comfortable and secure with, which can create contentment in our lives. I agree that exploring everything, is beneficial, and it helps to be well informed when making the decision regarding what is "right" for us as individuals. What is "right" for us, is not "right" for everyone, and it's important for all of us to be aware of whether our "right" choice adversly impacts other people. If it does, it is not beneficial, in my perception.
Muhammad Aizat Zainal Alam 30+
Hilal Halil
Yeah, Koran has divin origin. Please, make research about it. I wrote something to Steward and Brian, I explained some truths about it. But Obey, if you ask people about religion, they'll add their comment, too. So first you must read it, at least some verses, then have some comments, after that consider your and other's comments. There's nothing that supports slavery and shunts women.
A verse:(Nisa,82) "Aren't they thinking about Koran?If it was launched not by God, then there would be lots of discrepant thing in it."
Obey No1kinobe 50+
There are passages that condone slavery of non Muslim prisoners of war and the children of slaves. I guess you know the book better than I do.
Also passages regarding Men being in charge of women, e.g. Verse 4:34 Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them.
Some of the teachings may have been progressive at the time, but we have moved well past this now in many countries. I like the sound of your morality better than medieval morality.
I seen a few discussions on it. Nothing that convincing indicates the Koran is divine or even if there are any god or goddesses. I'm sure if you looked through the Internet you would find plenty of issues for the Old Testament, New Testament and Koran etc. I've had similar discussions with Christians and at some point they
Please provide just one piece of convincing evidence, just your best proof that it is divinely inspired. Something better than ambiguously reading science back into it. I'll even ignore the pagan sections.
Or perhaps don't bother because even if it has some interesting sections, it is still a leap of faith to assume it is all correct, that there is an invisible creator god. It could just as well have been donw by an alien.
Hilal Halil
As an evidence... People can only give evidences from Koran. We're discussing Koran's correctness with Koran. We have no other chance:)) Islam's evidence is Koran. Reading Koran, then deciding if it's a real evidence... It's between God and you. If Koran can't convince you, then you can look for other opinions, and religions till you truly believe it. These are truths, we have no choice:)) Read its directly translated version please:)))
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I agree in that for many it seemly comes down to belief about what makes sense to them, perhaps after reading the koran, or bible, or book of mormon, or something new age or occult.
If it makes sense with their world view, they may accept on faith.
Very different from actual compelling evidence.
I guess writing the stuff down is better than oral traditions, but written word is subject to so many different interpretations especially when talking about relgious and supernatural concepts. It is so inefficient. You'd think a god could come up with something better, something more reliable. No wonder we have so many different beliefs from the same books.
Thanks.
Hilal Halil
Stewart Gault 30+
You can say God's mysterious etc etc and that there's free will and the ability to do evil, I'm willing to grant you all that. BUT what sort of an intelligent God would create a species with so much bad design within it. My favourite examples or 1. Hay fever, an allergy to pollen which I have, now it doesn't take a genius to work out that making a species which has the ability to be allergic to plants isn't exactly wonderful design. 2. Solar Urticaria, being allergic to UV light. Now if you're going to create a species and make their lives dependent on the sun, the first thing you would do is make sure they could all go outside into the sunshine, in extreme cases people have to wear full blackout suits to prevent any UV radiation touching them. 3. We have a single esophagus for eating and breathing, you get that thing blocked and you choke to death. 4. Laryngeal nerve, this nerve controls the larynx, yet instead of going straight from the brain to the larynx it goes down into the chest, loops around then back up to the throat, this is further exaggerated in giraffes where it travels the whole length of the giraffes neck then goes back up again to the larynx. This nerve is also evidence of evolution as in very primitive fish this nerve does in fact go straight to the larynx with a small bend in it, yet the longer the fish gets the larger the nerve gets and the larger the bend in the nerve. We have shown systemically the evolution of this nerve from fish to humans, crocodiles and giraffes. And I think people's worst problem with evolution is that they refuse to believe that their great (add in another 10 million greats) grandfather was a fish.
Hilal Halil
And I have no emotional problems. I mean a fish can be my ancestor, no problem. I can be the developed version of it, but it opposes with religion. And that's one of the reason that holy books were launched: When we are confused, when we vacillate, it must be our shelter. And I want to add something: I love science so much, actually biology, I have no problems with it. I only don't believe some theories:)))
Stewart Gault 30+
Comment deleted
Obey No1kinobe 50+
It is your right. Freedom of religion and all that.
Funny how people are so careful to rely on evidence and reason for most areas of life and then rely of faith in this one.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
My recall is the ancient greeks figured out the world was a sphere (not a circle) without the Koran. Climb a mountain and you can see the curvature.
I will use the word god 7 times in the comment. That was one, now 6 more. God god god god god god. I guess listing a word a number of times is something anyone can do.
Plenty of examples of great poetry that are not necessarily from the divine but enrich our lives.
I heard one youtube video suggesting the koran mentions black holes. It was completely speculative.
Comment deleted
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I guess we all have a little faith about some things like our partners etc. Usually the more evidence and reason we mix in the more accurate our faith is with reality.
Rajasangeethan John
Hilal Halil
Actually it's like this: God don't want us to do bad things, but God created devil and badness, wickedness. But it's an exam. If there weren't any bad things, then life couldn't be an exam, so there wouldn't be ahiret life.
daniel hehir 20+
I've tried talking to Christians about the idea of reincarnation. But traditional thinking Christians are generally speaking closed to the idea, even though it is spoken of in the Bible. There are places in the Koran where reincarnation is mentioned. What do you think about reincarnation?
The black and white picture that most religious people have in their minds of heaven and hell seem like too simple a picture. The exam idea for example. If I was in school, taking many many exams. Then I of course will fail some and pass some.
To see reincarnation as a continuation of a spiritual evolution in a much larger picture seems much more logical to me than the whole concept of heaven and hell.
Besides, ...who would like to sit in heaven having a good time while your neighbor, your friend, even your own family member is condemned to hell....?? That in itself would be a hellish experience. I feel suffering in my self just when I open the newspaper and see all the suffering around in the world. People starving, being killed by violence and natural disasters. Where does it all end..?
Hilal Halil
Actually, I know nothing about Bible's verses. I believe Bible but ,you know, Bible was changed, and it has many different versions. So I'm not sure about Bible's correctness (about some topics). And you should read Koran to understand if reincarnation is true or not. But it opposes with Koran. If you haven't read yet, please read it, then you can understand better:))
daniel hehir 20+
I have read parts of the Koran and have found several references to reincarnation. I'll get back to you later with them. Have to run just now
daniel hehir 20+
http://www.adishakti.org/_/reincarnation_in_islam.htm
John Dunbar 10+
Yet he loves you?
Your saying, God creates a situation where he leaves no proof of his existence, except a book written by men. He then says believe that I am all powerful. Yet he leaves not a shred of proof that this is so and by your definition would never do this, because it would leave no reason for heaven or hell.
Does this sound like a plausible story about the all loving creator of the universe?
You say men do bad things, but you believe God created man. Then therefore, God created men and allowed for men to be evil. Hence god created evil men and allowed for their evil deeds to be perpetrated.
Wouldn't this mean that God is at least partially evil?
I don't mean to be antagonistic, but I am flabbergasted that a friendly person like you would worship somebody who turns their life into an exam, which if failed gets punished by an eternity of torture.
Hilal Halil
And I'm telling you again: A man can't write Koran, can't write the scientific knowledges inside it, even in that century's conditions. And you should read Koran, then you can understand it, Koran was sent to all the world. I'm not trying to change your believes, but I think everyone should learn all the religions, then choose one. It can't be a man work, it's obvious. There are miracles that are true. I'm writing it again: Pharaoh in Koran was found, its in museum now. And don't forget this, too: Noone have to believe God in world life, God left this selection to us(believing or not believing). Actually, they are certain evidences, but noone have to believe. I chose believing it. World life so exam life probably takes 70 years, but the other is endless. But please, don't tell things without reading. Please search Koran verses on net at least, I think there are translations in English. Read them, the ones that are about devil, devil has a story, there's a story about how evil started. Please, read it, and then consider your opinions again. Try to comment them. I'm not a theologian. The truest knowledge will be the real ones. I hope I could explain:))
daniel hehir 20+
Could you be a little more specific about the "science" in the Koran.
"Miracles" could also be of interest...
please be concrete. It would be helpful. I don't know what you mean by the Pharaoh story
John Dunbar 10+
Every single creation story ever written, has miracles that are performed by said prophet.
You also stated that the Koran was sent to all of the world. Well this has only been possible post the invention of the printing press. The printing press came into existence around the year 1440. What about the people of North or South America who had absolutely no ability to read the Koran?
I have not read the Koran but i have read passages that make me cringe.
Especially the part about the prophet Mohammed, taking a 6 year old as his wife.
I have one more criticism then I am done for this post. If God can't interfere in this life why bother praying?
I will have to read the Koran, its something i have always wanted to do. Point taken.
daniel hehir 20+
I read your comment above and thought I could give a little response to it.
Now, the real question you ask is "What is the purpose of evil?" or the "meaning or mission of evil?"
What encompasses this question has to bring into focus the question of freedom. To be truly free, one has to have the choice of good and evil. Now, many may argue that evil is a psychological construction that we call things we don't necessarily approve of. Either as a culture or as individuals. For example, some cultures say that it is an "evil" to kill. This is always of course considered within a "context" of what reason one should kill for and what conditions would then allow for the decision to take the action to kill another person. Some external conditions would in fact demand the conclusion to kill another human being. So the conditions surrounding the action always have to be taken into consideration ... regardless of what the "dogma" "though shall not kill" would demand. With a little imagination, one can conceive of such a condition where one would be forced to kill another human being.
Freedom is the central question here though. We are free beings. We examine and reexamine our choices in whatever we choose to do. With this element of freedom we can always evaluate the external conditions which "impel" us to action rather than "compel" us.
We could spin off on a discussion of "free will" here. But lets try to follow Hilal.
John Dunbar 10+
I was asking why a God figure who loves us would invent the atrocities i listed. If he has total control, why not just tell everyone why he was doing this. Seems like that would be more effective and caring vs having a book written by some men 2,000 years ago as the sole proof of his existence.
I would quickly like to add that not everyone has the ability to examine, or reexamine there thought process. Many people are slaves to their impulses and behave in ways that are very self destructive. This may be chemically induced. Also, many people have never been subjected to introspective techniques and would have never thought of employing them. We are not built to see ourselves.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
daniel hehir 20+
To be honest, I don't think we can even fathom the word "love" in terms of Gods love. In ancient Greece the had 4 words / types of love ... eros, agape,philia and storge. Agape is perhaps the closest we can come to our definition here. At least that's the form most Christians consider to be the closest. However, even this is sure not even close to what we are talking about here. As many who have spoken of NDE's have said, ... its a hundred times more powerful that what we can imagine.
The problem of evil doesn't have to challenge the idea. But the overriding factor is the singular aspect of freedom. Without freedom nothing of it makes sense.
Freedom is and has to be present for this puzzle to come to any logical conclusion. Without it then I have to agree with you. There could not be an "all loving God" without this aspect. Neither could I ever understand the conventional / traditional way of looking at heaven and hell. They do not make sense to me. There have been millions of people that have lived long before Jesus and Mohammad. What about them..? What about children? People who cant read or write. People who are handicapped..? One cannot find answers to these questions when one looks at "eternal damnation" for punishment for what... not be able to read the Koran / Bible... It simply cannot make sense. ... traditional religious thinkers will say that God has an answer for that too...well and good, but there seems to be a shortage of answers in the religious corner when posed this question.
The same goes for abused children, abused wives, slaves, etc. etc. There seems to be a shortage of answers here. Why does the "all loving God allow this to happen. It's a damn good question. What is the meaning of evil...?
I live in Norway.... It's a very relevant question here these days..
Stewart Gault 30+
I think there are far too many coincidences within the bible for it to even be considered in the slightest bit as anything other than one man's will to dominate over his less educated people. Is it too strange to notice how a god on one hand says do not murder, yet later in the same book says for the people to murder homosexuals, adulterers, blasphemers and women who marry and aren't virgins. Then it just so happens, that god temporarily suspends the no murder rule so that the Israelites can commit full genocide to the Midionites and the Amalekties. Surely anyone with an ounce of reasoning would rather agree that these are the results of an evil man's want to rule over a set of people and he does so by evoking the name of a god who by if they deny god's will they suffer in hell, instead of the will of an all loving god who doesn't take sides and loves everyone.
Or that virgin births seem to be a part of every religion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_births Is
Everyone's an atheist, no one believes in Apollo, or Cthulhu, or Horus or Ra, we just ask that you are consistent and go that one god further.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I understand the free will argument. It is still rather perverse to think a god set up the universe this way with animal instincts and selfishness battling cooperation. Seems more a natural selection outcome.
Freewill partially addresses human evil, maybe even indifference. It didn't have to be this dog eat dog world if created.
It doesn't explain earthquakes and disease and the crappy lives humans have eked out for most of our existence. It doesn't explain parasites that make you go blind.
I understand the love can be defined in many ways e.g. tough, romantic, unconditional etc. Hell doesn't seem very unconditional.
Which brings us to the problem of god being an evil overlord in some traditions like the bible. God throws a hissy fit then first time Adam makes a mistake. To err is human. God wipes out the entire human race with the flood. God required animal and a human sacrifice. God took sides with the Hebrews etc.
From a Theist view the problem of evil is about whether there is an all loving, all powerful, all knowing entity and it created this universe including hell and us knowing the result.
I suggest evil is simply the result of the natural and God is unable to prevent because God does not exist.
daniel hehir 20+
There was a lot packed in that last comment!
Freedom is one key word. Development is another. We are all undergoing a constant development. An evolution you might say. .... a spiritual evolution ... not just a physical one.
Evil is in a way the counter force. The force that we must continually work against. But how do we recognize the evil, .. that's the good question !
Instead of going into a polarity type of argument, where you seem to "personify" God as some old man on a thrown up in his heaven... I will choose to take a different approach.
I have to agree that there are many points you bring up that are not understandable. So I won't stand here with any "dogma package" and say things like earthquakes are Gods punishment to a people or a nation. That to me is ridiculous. I think also that people that propose such ideas, particularly conservative Christians and Muslims are way out on a rotten logical limb.
But I try and have always tried not to let others misconceptions get in the way of me making my own judgments and working out my own truths. The world is full of misconceptions, in the religious as well as the scientific. And again, to simply believe something without any logical connection in my own doubting mind, has never been a part of my philosophy. So, in many respects, we are skeptical, the both of us. It's an important mental tool to have. Deciphering all the "input" from the outer world would be a total disaster without this healthy tool of a strong degree of skepticism.
I guess life has its different paths for all of us. At the age of 18, it could have been me writing exactly the same things as you are writing here. I felt I was pushed into a corner by certain friends that had become "born againers" and it really turned me off to at least "that" way of seeing the world. So I started searching other places.
Back to the point of the discussion .... lets see, what was it again....Life after death, .. yes
Hilal Halil
Now im answering your question: Koran has lots of verses, lots of knowledges. A person cant collect and write them. His/her life cant suffice.
Also there are true miracles in Koran. For instance, pharaoh's miracle is in Koran, and pharaoh was found in sea short time ago.
Im saying this again: there are lots of knowledges that people couldnt know in those years, about planets, nature, etc. If you finish reading it, you can understand and feel something that none of the people can teach you.
Im not sure if it is Koran or Qoran. In Turkish there's no q sorry:))
Stewart Gault 30+
Now by why didn't all of them evolve I'm guessing you mean just everything in general, well the answer to that is they died out and became extinct, those which could not survive the change in environments died out. Ok evolving in different amounts, by this I'm again not entirely sure what you meant but I think I catch your drift. Sort of why are some things more complex than others. Well it's because an organism will only be as complex or adapted as it has to be, they can only survive in their own environments but subject to a change in environment will cause further evolution, so areas where the environment hasn't changed much is where you'll find animals which are either very similar or exactly like their ancient ancestors. Humans are an exception to this as we've also managed to reach a state of mental evolution where we change the environment to suite us not the other way round.
Well on speciation here's an example, look at the wide wide variety of dogs. Our earliest use of dogs as companions is around 10,000 years. So after 10,000 years, you go from having a wolf species to the domesticated dog species with all its different breeds as we artificially selected traits we liked within the dog. So example, you want a cute small dog, you would take the runts of a litter, breed them, they produce predominately small puppies, you then take the smallest of them and breed them and the cycle continues. Or you can look for protection and breed the most aggressive pups until you have a new breed. The Russians actual;y did this with grey foxes over 50 years and domesticated a large number of them. Now that's only 10,000 years, imagine 3.5 billion years of evolution. Evolution is simply the change in genetic structure over time. Feel free to ask further questions.
Hilal Halil
Also evolution theory opposes to religion. It refuses God. But God is always telling us this:"God created all the things." Also there's a verse that says "The others that you believe even can't create a fly." And I'm trying to translate a verse now:"It's doubtless that We(God generally say we but there's one God) created human from soil, from an extract. Then we locate it to a decided place in conformance with semen and extract. After that we made semen a segmentation, then we made segmentation an embryo, then bones. After that we clothe bones with meat. After after that we build it with different dispositions. The most beautiful creator Allah is so noble and high." How can a person write that? Even in 7th century?
And I want to add this: Most people have some prejudices to Islam. I don't know if you have any, but believe me, real Muslims are not the people that always stay at home (except going to mosque) with some sheets on them. There's a thing called Sharia, that's what they believe. Sharia is the strained and changed version of Islam. It's strictly construed. But that's what Araps and Persians do. If a person wants to discuss about Islam, he/she mustn't consider Sharia.
Stewart Gault 30+
And yes evolution is against literal translations of pretty much all holy texts.
Ok so in the 7th century there were no microscopes but lenses have been discovered as far back as the 6th century so maybe an Arab scientist/doctor was just playing around with lenses and seen a sperm, o wait you said semen which is just all of the ejaculation and you certainly don't need a lens to see it,
Obey No1kinobe 50+
In fact every person may have a slightly different interpretation.
Sunni, Shia, Wahabi, the more mystical sects. It is a natural of humans that the religions they create adapt and evolve as well.
How do we know your interpretation is the correct one. How do we know Jesus is not god. How do we know Buddha was not correct. We don't.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Tthe day we find rabbit fossils alongside dinosaurs I'll admit there are problems with Evolution. You won't find them side by side because rabbits had not evolved until after dinosaurs were extinct.
Some of your points are very basic misconceptions.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Funny you accept adaptation and variation within a species but can't imagine this as being but not evolution.
Why don't animals adapt the same? Because there is variation, mutation and varying survivial pressure that lead to different adaptations.
I don't think you understand evolution. If you wanted to there is plenty of good information.
Much more evidence for evolution than any gods.
Hilal Halil
I'm Muslim and I'll answer your question according to my religion. When we die, our body and soul will separate from eachother. Then the angels called Münker and Nekir will ask us:"Who is your God?What is your book?Who is your prophet?What is your religion?"Good people will answer them, unbelievers and bad people won't be able to answer them. We'll sleep in our graves for many years, then sometime(we dont know the certain date) the angel İsrafil will blow into"sur" and "Kıyamet" will happen. Kıyamet is the end of the world, like doomsday. The world will be razed to the ground, and when Israfil will blow "sur" second time, a new world will be created and dead people will be awaken. Then all the people will gather and will be judged in a big court. All of our actions will be considered. Our good deeds and sins will weighted in a scale called Mizan. Mizan will decide if we are good or bad. Then we'll try to pass from a bridge called Sırat. Sırat is thinner than a hair, and Sırat is above hell. Good people could pass from it then go to heaven, and bad people will fall to hell and pay their sins. When the paying comes to end, they'll go to heaven,too.
The life after we die is called "ahiret". Ahiret starts with the separation of our soul and body, but it has no end. We have a limited world life, but has an endless ahiret life. World life is temporary, and this life is an exam. We must believe God, and edit our behaviours in a good way. I hope I helped you:))
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I'm curious. In your belief God has set up a situation where many of his creations will spend an eternity in hell for whatever reason. Is hell a place of punishment, pain, etc or is it just separation from god? Is this for eternity or for a limited time.
I see no evidence for any of this being correct just like all other religions. But if you are right I'm going to hell, right?
I would like to believe, but belief is not a choice. We assess the information around us and what seems true to us is what we believe.
Seems a bit unfair. Perhaps after we unbelievers die and find out there is a god we should get a another chance.
In fact if a human tortured their child even for a short time we would probably think them cruel. To think of condemning someone to hell for eternity seems immoral. What do you think? Is eternity in hell as punishment okay because god is the boss and can do what he likes?
Hilal Halil
Okey, now I'm answering your question. Hell is not the separation from God. The ones that are separated from God will go there, will be punished, will be afraid of God, and then if their sins are not too much they'll go to heaven. Some will stay there forever, and some will stay for a limited time. It will depend on the results of Mizan, the scale. You will stay in hell if your sins are too much. Big sins are like killing people, seeing ourselves at the same level with God, and things like that. God can forgive us if we didn't have chances to find the truest religion. But God can't forgive us if we disturb, damage, do injustice, or things like that. Only people that we disturbed, damaged, etc. will be able to forgive us. But with this days' conditions people will be in a dreadful fear that we even won't recognize our parents.
And don't forget this: God is our creator. God know everything's best, and God always have justice. God have no bad qualities, and God always know things that we don't know, so it's not injustice.
There are bad Muslims, too, they will go to hell. And there are good Christians, Jewishes, etc, too, and they will go to heaven. :))
John Dunbar 10+
.
God has no bad qualities and God has no injustices? What happened during the holocaust? what about the crusades when muslims were exterminated? what about the absurd amount of sexual abuse perpetrated by the catholic church on innocent children?
By stating that God knows things we don't and there are no injustices, allows humans the ability to rationalize anything. Because if God allows it then it must be good and right. God allows countless rapes every day. Is that good and right?
I know, I know we can't understand Gods will.
You seem like a nice person who writes with good intentions. I just can't understand how a person seemingly as collected as you, would ever rationalize such brutality as the will of an omniscient, omnipotent, supreme being.
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"-Epicurious
Obey No1kinobe 50+
So your assumption is whatever god says or does is okay because he is god, even if it appears evil from a human perspective, right?
I understand that the Koran approves of slavery. So slavery is okay as long as you follow the Koran? Do you support and accept slavery? I ask the same question of Christians.
Do you agree that it is moral for Men to be in charge of women and to strike them if they are repeatedly disobedient?
I suggest the Koran is your source, and not in itself evidence for the supernatural and truth claims. It just makes assertions about the truth that you believe. What makes you believe that the Koran is the word of god and is correct in what it says? Is there any reasonable evidence that the Koran has divine origin?
Taking a step back, how do we know there is a heaven and a hell, that there is a god. A book is not proof of god if you understand what I mean. The Mormons also have a book that contradicts yours. How do I tell which religious book is correct? How do I tell there is a god and an afterlife. Seems impossible to me.
There are not too many muslim voices on TED. Interesting to get your pespective.
Stewart Gault 30+
Hilal Halil
Stewart Gault 30+
A belief is based on faith, and faith is the denial of observation so that belief can be preserved.
I'm yet to ever hear or read evidence of a creator or any notion that we ourselves are created.
As you inferred to Obey above you said the Koran was sent by God as truth, well you need evidence of that too. Pointing to a book and inferring truth from it is simple, it's what scientologists and mormons do, and if I wanted to, I could point to Harry Potter and say magic must exist and people really play quiditch. But I don't as it's bad practice which you must realise, the book itself is not evidence, there are books and scriptures for Apollo and Odin but we don't believe them just because these holy texts say what they do.
Now what really disturbs me is this "God is our creator. God know everything's best, and God always have justice. God have no bad qualities" I'll grant you the justice, but god can't be wrong, he always knows best, here I disagree. The totalitarian North Korea in the sky who knows everything and can never be wrong is something I refuse to accept as worthy of worship. This means that IF the books you speak of are his words written by man, then we are all doomed to hate this god, pro genocide, anti homosexuality, possibly the most morally corrupt being I've ever read of, who would have you stone a fellow human for getting married and not being a virgin. This is all within Deuteronomy, one book, the book of law where every chapter begins, "And God spoke to Moses" If this God exists we are lost as a race, but I'm glad to know it's a mere imagination of man to install a theocracy.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
If I said the sun revolves around planet earth to give us days, and rested at night in a cradle would that be an equal belief to saying earth spinning makes it look like the sun is moving around us?
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Actually it is almost certain we evolved.
The origin of life is a question. But once we had life with a self replicating molecule - DNA, evolution was underway. From less adapted to more adapted.
The living creatures you see around you are all related - you can see it in the DNA, you can see it in the physical similarities. All vertebrates share a common ancestor with 4 limbs.
The origin of the universe is a question too. Again you may think you have the answer but it is not supported by reasonable evidence. If it was I would believe.
Helen Hupe 30+
Stewart Gault 30+
Helen Hupe 30+
Helen Hupe 30+
Thank you for the exchange of ideas. It was goood. (:>)
Helen Hupe 30+
Stewart Gault 30+
Helen Hupe 30+
Stewart Gault 30+
Helen Hupe 30+
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I tend to agree if there is a god or gods they are probably beyond our imagination and we limit them when we personify or anthropomorphise them.
I doubt they would be interverntionist in the way many beliefs assume.
No surprise to me that many gods are made in our image.
The god of the old testament is particularly human.
Helen Hupe 30+
Allan Macdougall 30+
Can anybody therefore ever know what happens after death without direct experience of NDE?
A consciousness trying to fully understand itself, using only its own inherent limitations, can only get to a certain point scientifically - then it has to resort to creating metaphor (and even mythology) to help intuit the rest of it, in the absence of certainty. (Is this where God exists?)
Consciousness is beyond the kind of science that concerns itself only with the known physical world. Up to that point, we are only 'what' - not 'who'.
I think it is the understanding of our 'who' area, that is likely to enable glimpses of what happens after death.
I've quoted this before, and rather boringly, I'm going to quote it again:
"The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence"
The scientist, Nikola Tesla
John Dunbar 10+
Allan Macdougall 30+
How does the mind deal with such voids of understanding?
Science will try to fill that void with facts and certainties gained via the scientific method, which by its very nature can not go very much further than the evidence it needs to support hypotheses.
Religion will try to fill the void with Gods, metaphor, mythology and the afterlife - all of which are untestable and full of uncertainties - yet provide comforting, graspable 'visuals' of what might be there for us after death. The visualising of what happens after we die - and in the absence of such certainty from science - these metaphorical thought processes are all we've got.
This doesn't have to be seen as religion getting the upper hand over science in that visualisation process. I think the whole process can be contemplated within the wider arena of psychology, which is a discipline concerned with both the physical and our perceptions of the metaphysical.
This is the point illustrated in Tesla's quote - that the physical and the non-physical have closer links with each other than we think. If the disciplines we currently have to study them could just work closer together with each other, then we might get a lot nearer to the understanding of phenomena currently out of our reach - such as what happens after we die.
John Dunbar 10+
You saying that the metaphysical thought processes are all we have got, is true.
That's why I firmly say, that I can never accept anybody's proposal of what the afterlife consists of.
All we really have, are people using brains to contemplate the unknowable. So any thought about the afterlife is going to be loaded with personal bias and human understandings.
We are always going to run into God of the gaps arguments. But what does it accomplish to deem something you don't understand, as God.
I postulate that the things we don't know or understand make for a lack of control.
By projecting a loving, caring figure, who never leaves your side, loves you eternally, and forgives you for your human faults allows for you to mentally dominate the unknown. This restores a sense of control. This control wether false, or not, pacifies anxiety.
That is my position on how the mind fills the gaps of our understandings.
I happen to think science is starting to move down the road you are referring to. Michael Persinger's God Helmet is an example of this. The helmet stimulates the right temporal lobe and induces out of body experiences.
This stuff is incredibly interesting thanks for your well thought out response
-Brian
daniel hehir 20+
A NDE is a threshold experience.. Sort of like entering a dream, but your wide awake.
As I mentioned earlier in another comment thread. Artificially induced NDE have been around for thousands of years .. Baptism was, at one point in history, an actual NDE that the initiate was actually drowned and brought back to life. The person being baptized experienced directly the other side of the threshold. This came to the point where many actually died in the process.
What the Russians have experienced in their space development program with their G machine. A sort of a giant spinning machine where the astronaut is spun around at high speed. It is reported that they too have NDE ... Some say that this is simply due to the lack of oxygen to the brain, but this is often the cause. Its not the lack of oxygen that "is" the experience. The lack of oxygen loosens the souls attachment to the physical body. Drowning people also relate such a story of seeing their whole lives pass before them...
John Dunbar 10+
Having an NDE doesn't tell you how the world really works, or what death really is.
I don't know if there is a soul or not. I have to say, when i look at the evidence for both sides i feel as though there is not a soul.
Im not quite sure how you can claim that the soul gets loosened from the physical body during an NDE. There is no evidence for this.
There are many things that people remain ignorant of during an NDE. I have never heard anyone ever talk about being able to view there own brain function.
Very rarely do you hear about an NDE that was horrifying. My guess would be, that if you have an NDE and it induces terror, you are more likely to chalk it up to brain malfunction. The stories you generally hear are very peaceful and comforting.
Like I stated before, i don't know if we have a soul, but one that is fastened to our brain and lifts off at death to recognize my dead genetic ancestors seems very implausible.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
daniel hehir 20+
Things in science are changing fast though. It's hard to forsee the future. With the technology that is available today, its not so difficult to imagine that a whole human being could be "frozen down" slowly and then reawakened. ... They are always talking about this possibility to live an extra couple of hundred years. Wake up in the year 2412 for example... Strange..
I would think that the problem of the preservation of the physical body is not much of an obstacle.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Give it 1,000 years or 10,000 and I would not be surprised if we will be able to rebuild a human from a DNA sample. Some theists reject this as it conflicts with their assumptions. There is certainly ethical and other considerations.
Perhaps in my life time we will be able to change human DNA and genes, to play with "creation"
If I can clarify. my best guess is our consciousness is due entirely to our brains. With NDE there is still some sort of intact brain, maybe damaged, maybe lack of oxygen, but still a brain. No evidence for any mind or consciousness close to a human level without a brain, or without something physical.
If NDE is an experience going on in our brain like a dream it is entirely consistent with a material view, unless the experience included some out of body experience that could be verified. Then we would have a big question.
Even freezing, or suspending life is still leaving some sort of body and brain.
If there was a way to destroy the brain, rebuild it and bring the person back to life, and the person recalled out of body experiences of the interim that could be verified, then we would be in search of a better explanation than current neuroscience etc.
Not sure is suspending the body is that easy. Guess we can slow down processes, but how avoid breakdown, rot, damage from water expanding if frozen etc. How long can the brain go without oxygen. How to stop the brain processes. etc. Interesting. Guess is we snap froze someone, they might not be revivable. I'll leave it to the experts.
I guess a lot of our current science and technology would have been science fiction even a few decades or centuries ago. Hard to believe we have only had controlled flight just over a century. My phone is more powerful than computers we had at school. Parents didn't even have calculators at school.
Helen Hupe 30+
Quantum mechanics is astounding and is it an optical illusion for some of these things or is that really how they are ? What about dark matter ? And dark energy. Science is constantly discovering things that were not known before, so Maybe there is something we still cannot define or even understand. When you know it ALL, then I will concede. (:>)
Obey No1kinobe 50+
My understanding is we can not detect dark matter. It is just inferred via gravitational effects.
People forget that acceptance of big bang theory as the best explanation we have is relatively recent, same with the theory of relativity etc etc.
So we need to be careful - not all aspects of science is equally well established.
Having said that, that doesn't mean all explanations developed to explain the universe are equal.
Helen Hupe 30+
Stewart Gault 30+
Helen Hupe 30+
Stewart Gault 30+
Don Wesley 50+
I frequently go to local discussions of this kind, with the hope of feeling kindness!
All confess to coming away feeling abused.
So I now believe the story that seems most like truth.
“What Kindness creates, Reciprocates
What Science creates, Educates
What the Devil creates, Complicates
Where the Devil is involved,
Beware of Logic"
- Donald John Wesley 1933-20??
Helen Hupe 30+
I had a new view that let me "see" where I had been wrong. There are no words to express the beauty and wisdom I experienced. Hope this clarifies my previous post.
daniel hehir 20+
Thanks for your reply.
I have been reading a bit about this type of experience. May I ask you if you experienced the light as the Christ being...? Feel free to choose not to answer if you feel the question steps over your integrity of what you would or would not like to expose of your personal life. I understand if you don't want to answer.
I have heard stories where people are in grave desperation who have experienced this light. I have come to the understanding that this is a phenomena that will occur more and more in the world. People will be experiencing this incredible light which will appear to them. A light of pure love and wisdom. This is what some esoteric teachers call the "second coming" of the Christ. This is perhaps an apparent contradiction to what many conservative Christians might call the "second coming" but not the I have learned to understand it. Can you please reply to this later part of my comment if you will ?
Helen Hupe 30+
daniel hehir 20+
I find your story exceptionally interesting Helen. Who the light being was / is seemed to have left a lasting impression on you ... and whats more, you can continually find new nourishment from ... yes ... even just from the thought of its presents.
I too was born Catholic. I haven't been in a Catholic church for years though.
In other words, I have found my spiritual nourishment other places. Although such an experience as the one you had, I could only one day hope for.
Otherwise, I have heard some amazing stories about concentration camp prisoners also meeting such a light.
I can share one with you, ... and anyone else reading along.
It was near the end of the war in a concentration camp in Germany. There was a bunker with 25-30 prisoners. A German solder entered the room and began beating a prisoner ruthlessly for almost no reason.. He beat him and beat him until the prisoner was lying almost lifeless on the floor of the bunker. Suddenly a light being appeared for "everyone" to see. Even the German solder himself saw it. The solder immediately stopped beating the prisoner and the whole room fell deeply silent. The solder left the bunker then. The prisoner recovered and lived until the war was over.
Now this story was told to me by a very respectable source and I can find no reason for doubting it. Other stories of this nature have crossed my path up through the years. I can't help thinking also of the light being that is often told of by people who have a NDE
Some call it an angle being. Some call it an energy being.
I'm trying to piece it all together Helen.
Thanks for your reply !!
Daniel
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I note you jump to "who" as opposed to what.
Who knows what is behind this profound experience?
The leap to personification, cultural filters, etc is very subjective.
I would not be surprised if this is something some would interpret as God, Jesus, Mary, angels or Vishnu etc depending on cultural programming, but we really don't know what was going on.
It is human to interpret these experiences. I just hope people recognise how subjective the interpretations can be.
We don't know if it is an entity or intelligence etc etc, an alien, some phenomena that overloads our senses, or something just within the brain. Agree is could be, could be an angelic being or spirit guide or enlightened soul etc. It could be something far outside even our imagination. We don't know.
A rare experience like this is very hard to test.
Seems a wonderful and profound experience. Re the German story. Pity this light is rare I guess there are a billion occasions we could do with some help for every time the light appears. Maybe there is only one light and it can only be in one place at a time. Opps I'm starting to speculate on the subjective.
Some people hear these events and fit them into their particular supernatural belief paradigms as a proof. Others accept the experience but are wary of intuitive subjective interpretations.
I thought about whether to jump in or not. Don't mean to minimise or diminish the experience or impact the intuitive hopeful interpretation, but thought my ideas may be an interesting perspective on a public forum like this.
Helen Hupe 30+
Stewart Gault 30+
Helen Hupe 30+
Stewart Gault 30+
Rajasangeethan John
What happens after we die? If we scrutinize to the meaning of this question we can see cause for this question. Let's ask some other questions to face this question.
What's the need to know the happenings after death ? What makes one to think or worry about an event that's not encountered by himself yet?
A) Fear of death or becoming nothing B) Curiosity C) Love for life
I'm not gonna answer for this :) But the idea is, whatever the answer you choose would be the answer you want subconsciously. So explore it :)
And in a broad way, we all die. Nothing happens to an individual after death. It's just all quarks and neutrons. Thus the existence gonna be there. But again, when i say we'd end up as molecules it's not molecules of us. It's molecules of matter which constitute the universe the whole existence. So every particle as what we end up as would not have an intuition of 'I' or 'Me'. It becomes a particle of existence which in turn would be recycled to take another form of anything. And this recycling is not reincarnation. If I'm putting it right, the recycled form would not have any of this present 'I" in it. It's gonna be an entirely new form. We can console ourselves to save from fear of death by saying that we gonna be in the universe in other forms after death. But logically, that other form's not gonna have any residue of this present 'Me'.
And this question is the question of human race since it's evolution. The reason can be noted mainly because that we're not accepting the nothingness or the eventuality. That's the conflict between conscious and subconscious and that's the conflict between the reason and the cause. We tended to find solutions for it in a way that those solutions would suit our purposes of being. That has formed the various belief systems on death..
Colleen Steen 500+
I think it is great to include philosophy, astronomy and psychology because I believe the topic, "what happens after we die" to include everything that is, was and will be for all of us.
I have encountered death, and I do not worry about it. So, love of life is my answer to the question why would I want to explore death. I believe that how we live our life is the important piece at this time, because we are here, now. It is always fun to ponder and speculate:>)
I agree that what happens when we die is that we become molecules of matter ( or energy) which constitute the whole universe...and beyond. I agree that the recycled form does not have any of this present "I" in it. None of the human characteristics at least. I believe we retain and have access to all information regarding the "I" in human physical form, as well as other forms. When I had the NDE/OBE, there was a sense of all knowing.
I agree that the various belief systems regarding death have developed based on our need to explain death, and often people form their beliefs based on what they are taught in human form, because humans like to think they/we "know" the answers. So, we sometimes make the answers fit a certain established belief system.
Reincarnation was not at all part of my belief system prior to the NDE. However, while in the spirit/energy state, I knew that if I did not come back at this time, in this body, I would come back in another body. So, now I do believe in reincarnation. I agree that the next form, has none of the characteristics of the form I am in now. The only thing I may be aware of and have access to is information learned in other forms.
Rajasangeethan John
I commented the previously considering all of us. I didn't mean you and your experiences alone. I apologize if that comment meant anything in that way.
The life or the essence of existence is, you know, is that it just exist. Considering the vastness of the existence, our lives are unaccountable. If we look in broader spectrum, human is a combination of energy that takes a form for a period of time after which it dismantles back to energy state. During the period in which these energy constitute body and brain, the brain with its unlimited and complex trafficking of neurons create some transactions which our sense with use of language and evolutionary ideas, conceive as thoughts, emotions, ideas etc. But all these ideas or thoughts have got nothing to do with the whole existence of the universe or multiverse or matter. It should be seen as a flow of energy in course of which it takes various forms which dismantles to form basic molecules which again in course might take any form like a human, a rock or whatever. Again that's not necessarily be the same form and the probability of such a consecutive occurrence needs infinite occurrences to occur in the same way with same combination.
If i put it another way, may be in an abstract way, clouds form shape in the sky not wanting to form a shape. They get shape in course of their direction or air or the other entities then they again become formless. And that cloud might have a lot of transaction by itself which we might not be aware of. We don't even care if there's any. For us, they form, they disappear. That's what human life is. All the conceptions and ideas that we generate aren't a matter of concern for the existence. For the existence, in it's point of view (if it's got one) we're just a formation of energy in its course. Because it knows that nothing works as our conceptual thinking conceives.
We form for no reason, we die for no reason. We live to find reason. And that reason got no reason :)
daniel hehir 20+
... Rather anemic perspective on life ... I would say...
Colleen Steen 500+
I also commented considering all of us, and I share part of my personal experience, while agreeing with, and adding to your comment. Would you feel more comfortable if I do not respond to you on this open forum?
I do not agree that our lives are "unaccountable". That may be your personal perception, which I respect, and I feel very accountable for my life, the direction of my life, and the choices I make within the life experience.
I do look at the broader spectrum, and agree that the human is a combination of energy that takes a form for a period of time.
I do not agree that all these ideas or thoughts have nothing to do with the whole existence of the universe or multiverse. I believe that everything is connected with energy....a flow of energy, as you insightfully recognize:>)
I do agree that we are partly a formation of energy, and do not agree that all the conceptions and ideas that we generate aren't a matter of concern for the existence. You may be right...it's a point of view. I like to think and feel that my life has reason, meaning, and is indeed a matter of concern....at least to me:>) If I thought for a moment that I was here on this earth school for no reason...that I live and die for no reason...the human experience would feel dull to me.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
1) just because you might judge there being no absolute reason or objective meaning for life as anaemic doesn't mean it isn't correct.
2) if there is no simple objective meaning, that doesn't mean we can not have rich and fulfilling lives.
Strange how many can live happily with what may be a delusion in terms of this god or that goddess but can not imagine having a fulfilling life without some god given purpose. Not implying you do or don't think that. Just an observation from experience.
The creator of the universe taking a personal interest in each of us seems somewhat self indulgent to me. She could. Who knows. Interventionist gods seem most unlikely.
Look around, painful childbirth, sickness, injury, disease, aging.
The breakdown of our bodies after death.
Animals living by eating other living things.
99% of species extinct.
Earthquakes, storms, floods, and the lifeless expanse of space.
Not much warm fuzzy objective meaning in reality.
Some think this is created.
Yet we have evolved to think, to feel, to hope, to love to dream. Somehow in the survival of the fittest we were born and we can find our own meaning with or without mythical gods and unproven afterlife.
Colleen, you could be right about reincarnation. I suggest a NDE experience does not quite meet the burden of proof. Its not the same as a conscious experience after brain death or your body and brain completely breaking down. While NDE is about as close as we can get, and gives many peace, actual life after death would appear to be unverifiable.
Even if we could copy or reboot our consciousness and memories into computer or artificial body/brain we still wouldn't know.
I wonder if other animals have NDE?
I tend to agree with RJ based on current information.
We agree on focusing on life before death in a positive sense.
Colleen Steen 500+
I am not offering my experience as "proof" of anything, nor am I trying to be "right". I am simply addressing the topic question (what happens after we die) with my story and my beliefs based on my experience.
You say an NDE is "not the same as a conscious experience after brain death or your body and brain completely breaking down".
Obey, the body and brain WERE completely breaking down after the accident and emergency craniotomy, and the body was kept alive with life support systems. I have medical records to prove that. Although I was unconscious according to the medical model and medical records, I experienced other levels of consciousness. The part of the brain that allows me to speak and connect on a human level was disabled, and other consciousness was available to me.
I'm really not trying to prove anything, and I don't care what others believe, as long as those beliefs do not manifest into practices that adversely impact others. I am simply shareing my story in regards to the topic question.
Yes, we seem to agree that how we live our life is the important piece:>)
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I understand you are not trying to prove anything. You are just sharing a profound experience. I'm not arguing with you or trying to convince you of anything either. Just exploring.
A NDE as you describe is about as close we can get to being permanently dead.
To clarify we have no evidence of consciousness without some sort of brain structure. Being unconscious, not breathing etc, brain damaged or even no measurable brain activity is not the same consciousness after the brain has decomposed.
Maybe even without oxygen something is still going on that relys on brain structure. Maybe some forms of consciousness do not need measurable brain activity. Maybe consciousness doesn't even need a brain structure for a short time or for ever. More questions here than answers.
I can imagine some form of consciousness persisting for some time in the brain even if damaged, starved of oxygen etc but not completely obliterated. But I'm just speculating.
Do we have any idea how a consciousness would actually see surroundings without eyes or hear or feel. Most likely a hallucination like a dream, but who knows.
In my own mind, NDE is not proof of reincarnation or even life after death. I know you are not proposing your experience as proof. You weren't actually reincarnated.
Maybe we could come up with some ways of pointing towards reincarnation being real if memories of the past life were accessible. Otherwise, very hard to verify reincarnation. Just like life after death would be difficult to confirm even if it were real.
Even if someone was dead and decomposed and their body/brain was somehow repaired and brought back to life from a DNA samplewould their perceived memories or conscious experience of the dead time be proof? Maybe, if we could correlate their memories with events on earth while they were dead. But not if they experienced being in some other place. Life after death may be unverifiable.
How do we separate what happens in our head from reality
Colleen Steen 500+
You stated..."Colleen, you could be right about reincarnation. I suggest a NDE experience does not quite meet the burden of proof."
To clarify...again...I am not suggesting that I am right, nor am I trying to "meet the burden of proof". I am simply sharing a story about an experience I had.
I understand that there is no evidence regarding consciousness/unconsciousness, what it is or how it works. I'm offering some ideas, based on an experience. I too offer information with the intent of further exploration.
You ask..."Do we have any idea how a consciousness would actually see surroundings without eyes or hear or feel?"
Yes, I believe I do have an idea. In my perception and experience, consciousness is carried by energy. The closest I can come to a description of what I experienced is ESP...a sense of all knowing without the human senses.
You write..."Maybe we could come up with some ways of pointing towards reincarnation being real if memories of the past life were accessible".
In my perception, many memories of past lives ARE accessible. I agree with you that this information is not verifiable.
I do not believe that the body/brain can be repaired and brought back to life after being decomposed. In my perception and experience, once the body/brain dies, the energy that fuels the body transfers to another form.
You ask..."How do we separate what happens in our head from reality".
In my perception, what happens in our head is part of reality. Just because we cannot see it, does not mean it is not real. In my perception, our thoughts, feelings, ideas, opinions are very real, and they all manifest as part of the reality of the life experience.