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Atheism as a Spiritual Path
I have been an atheist for a few years now, but I continue to feel the need for a spiritual path and to live with spiritual principles.
PLEASE READ:
http://reasonable-thought.blogspot.com/2011/01/morality-spiritual-atheism.html
I do have a spiritual path, which has found expression in my atheism. It lies in the unimaginable creative evolution of this incredible universe, in the complexity of our ecosystem and the incredible far fetched chance that with all the twists and turns that evolution took along the way, humans evolved and luckily for me, I somehow was born. I experience gratitude that despite all odds to the contrary, I get to experience this crazy and beautiful, yet challenging life, that I get to be a parent and try to make a difference for my fellow humans.
I definitely have a spiritual path. It includes and is largely based on science, on quantum mechanics and theory of relativity. It allows me to sit in awe at the wonder of a developing human fetus, which goes through the stages of evolution in it's mother's uterus. That we are all spawn from matter created from super novas and transformation of energy into matter and back again millions or billions of times until today. We look around and see this mass of diverse matter and life, but it is all star-dust, created by exploding stars and the transformation of energy.
Evolution continues to unfold unbidden and undirected, but incredibly beautiful!
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daniel hehir 20+
I'm all for the scientific method. All for questions, questions and more question. And one certitude today must always be allowed to be challenged tomorrow. Curiosity and wonder are so much a part of my way of seeing the world that it has happened that my friends have actually made fun of me when I spend a few moments to look at a little spiral formed flower by the driveway.
I'm sure there are many scientists who can see the whole cosmos reflected within the little flower.... But what is it that creates the border between the sciences and the spirit. Does there really need to be such a sharp line between the two..? I mean, the scientific method has to be the only way to go forward to gain real knowledge in the world. But, should it ever be proven that the spiritual world is quite real, then, it would make perfect sense if we (scientist as well as layman) must also apply the scientific method to the world of the invisible.
You may say that this is not possible. But if the world of the spirit is real, then it must be within the grasp of the scientific methods and principles to do research and discover the nature of it.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I guess science at this stage is indicating most perceived spiritual experiences are products of the material mind. Pray or meditate and a part of your brain activates as seen in an MRI.
Damage the brain and you damage the mind, consciousness etc.
Current metaphysics is simply organising ideas about what is most likely an imaginary realm dreamed up by our ancestors.
daniel hehir 20+
The physical brain is like an antenna. If you destroy the antenna, the signal to the TV will not get through. Its a simple analogy but it works. What you are saying is that the picture, the sound all come from within the TV itself. We know this is not true. The MRI shows the activity of the thinking feeling spirit within the brain.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I heard someone else say that pschadelic drugs gave them spiritual experiences. The loss of ego/self, feeling one with everyone. Apparently there is a part of the brain that is responsible for this sense of self. I guess some drugs impact this. I guess some non drug related experiences play around with our minds and consciousness.
Trance is not that unusual for humans. We get into a mild trance when watching movies and lose awareness of the surrounds and our selves.
I'm not saying you might not be right, but the material brain can probably explain most of the spiritual experience stuff. No need to add complexity unless you have some evidence.
Colleen Steen 500+
Obey, you say..."Science has discovered much that is weird already".
With my experience of the NDE/OBE, I've discovered a lot that would have seemed weird to me prior to the incident too! After the fact, however, it seems very natural.
Obey, I disagree with your statement..."Damage the brain and you damage the mind, consciousness etc."
My brain was badly damaged (there IS proof of that fact - scans, MRIs, x-rays, craniotomy, etc.) and my mind/consciousness seems to be working at a higher level. When I say higher level, I mean more perceptive, aware, mindful, open minded, etc. Although I was not expected to live, then not expected to ever function "normally" again...here I am, enjoying a full life:>)
I percieve the brain to be a carrier of energy, and the energy is a carrier of information. Science recognizes the energy flow in the body/brain. So, I agree with Daniel that the brain is like an antenna, and I don't percieve Daniel saying it is a "spiritual antenna"...simply an antenna, which may also be considered a carrier of energy....yes?
It seems very simple and natural to me, although scientists (medical professionals) I was involved with years ago are not often in tune with this idea yet, so they give it the label of miracle. To me, it is simply a natural scientific happening, and when people do not understand the science, they sometimes put it in the spiritual/supernatural realm.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I would suggest that some damage can be worked around and other damage can not. The plastic brain, natural healing, the extent of the damage etc.
I'm glad you recovered. Others have been brain damaged from lack of oxygen or trauma or disease.
A relative of mine had severe dementia, a disease of the brain. It did damage their consciousness etc. The personality faded as well before the end.
A friend of mine got hit by a bus and damaged his brain. He is physically and intellectually handicapped. He's not quite the same person. Maybe some of it is trapped. I don't know.
Another friend has used too many recreational drugs. He has mentioned he feels hollow. Like some of his memories and personality has been erased.
Assuming the metaphysical spirit exists - I accept that if the spirit needs a working brain to project into the real world properly - this could fit the assumptions. I guess you would assume the spirit is not damaged by brain disease or trauma. Perhaps it is. We don't know. Which is central to my comments. We don't know if spirits exist. There is so much additional speculation about where they come from, how they work, where they go etc.
A close relative of mine had an NDE. It was quite comforting for them. She was not a Christian or religious at all before. So even if there is an afterlife I'm assuming you don't need to be a Christian to go to a pleasant place. I didn't debate her, but it seemed just like something a mind might make happen as it drifted away.
I don't know enough about how the brain copes with a life threatening situation to assess NDE. I have a few speculative ideas only. I could imagine ways these profound experiences might happen without requiring a spirit and spirit world. I would not be surprised if there were similarities and also some experience/cultural specific aspects - a mix of the material mind and the information in it.
When the energy in the brain stops, when it decays, what then from your perspective?
John Dunbar 10+
So upon further examination you have the brains chemistry allowing for subjective experience. To repeat myself, yes the brains chemistry can and is altered by subjective experience and interaction with environment.
I have to say as humans we lend far too much credence to subjective experience. Im not trying to diminish subjectivity, but it can be misleading. People have hallucinations and other such experiences that are subjective and are not real. We now know that hallucinations are not real(or it wouldn't be a hallucination) but if we wind back the clock to midivil times hallucinations would take the form of a jungian archetype and most commonly were understood as a vision from the gods. However a hallucination is subjectively real. We also understand that hallucinations are a product of malfunctioning dopamine levels. So my point is that you have the brain determining trust, reality, and subjective experience.
You have the subjectivity as a product of the brain so then why not consciousness as well. When we have a dreamless sleep we are not conscious but we wake up and we are. this leads me to believe that consciousness is not a result of an outside force but more likely a state of the brain.
Of course I cannot prove one model true or untrue. However when taking the above points into consideration the antenna model seems unlikely and dominated by spiritual motives.
Colleen Steen 500+
Yes..."Some damage can be worked around and other damage can not". New neural pathways are formed...or not. There are many factors involved. I know that many do not have the same results I had, and I also know that many others HAVE had similar results....again...there are many factors.
When I was unconscious, according to the medical model, the part of the brain that allows communication as a human was disabled. There was something else functioning, because I was experiencing several levels of consciousness. I equate it to a computer...some programs can be open and running, while other programs may be turned off or disabled for some reason.
I experienced the NDE as very comforting as well. I was not practicing any religion at the time, and still do not practicing a religion. The NDE was totally beyond my belief system at the time. My belief is that we all go back to spirit/energy form, and no, we do not have to embrace a particular belief to experience the spirit/energy form....in my perception.
You ask..."When the energy in the brain stops, when it decays, what then from your perspective?"
I believe that the energy leaves the body when brain activity stops. The body, including the brain, goes back into the earth...buried....cremated....whatever one chooses. The energy returns to the "pool" of energy to be recycled. My experience was that although the energy that powers my body was seperate, it was also connected to the rest of the energy.
I agree with Frans Kellner, who said in a comment the other day... trying to explain this stuff is like peeling an apple with an ax!!!
I am very sorry about your friends that you mentioned above. Life is not easy. I lost 2 friends in the last couple weeks. One finally died from a brain tumor he's had for awhile, and the other one was fatally injured in a car accident...severe internal injuries, including traumatic brain injury. After 10 days in ICU, her family agreed to unplug life support systems last week.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I'm glad there have been some positives from what must have been a traumatic situation. I can see how your view fits your experience intuitively. Similar to my Aunt.
For me NDE is an unanswered question. Great quote from Franz.
Yes, life can be brutal even in a rich modern country. Our bodies are quite easily broken and none of us last for ever. That is a tough decision for your friends re the ICU.
I'm not surprised by the array of beliefs in regards to the afterlife when you mix in NDE, centuries of religion and spiritual ideas, and increasing scientific understanding. It is an inevitability facing us all.
Usually I'm all for the contest of ideas, but it would be nice if death was something that brought us all closer instead of being another point of contention. Perhaps it does if we pause for minute and reflect. Thanks for the discussion.
Colleen Steen 500+
Death CAN bring us all together rather than seperate us, because it is another similarity that we all share. You insightfully say..."perhaps it does if we pause for a minute and reflect".
You have spoken the magic words that could bring us together more and more in many ways..."pause for a minute and reflect".
I think/feel/observe that many times, people are so caught up in their own beliefs, there is no pausing and reflecting on the words they are speaking, the beliefs they are fighting for, how it impacts themselves, how it impacts others, or the world we all share.
daniel hehir 20+
the complexity of the brain is, I agree, something that science is delving deeper and deeper into. Thousands of kilometers with microscopic neural connections. But what we see as the connections firing are always in response to an asked question or a requested thought or feeling that is asked to the subject under the MRI. It always has to come from the individual(ity) who is actively thinking. What reveals itself in the form of "lighting up" in the various areas of the brain, are the footprints of the spiritual activity going on in these neurons. They are not the actual "thoughts" It would be a mistake to say so. And neither would I guess that an honest truth seeking scientist would even say. ... as ... How can one convert the MRI's flashing lights to real thoughts.....?
Now, because physical science is at the limits of it's material explanation, it can go no further. But it must. It must ask the next question honestly to itself. How does this lighting up reveal the activity going on from within the neurons. . The answer so far is this.. Our tools of measurement are not sensitive enough to capture what is "really" going on here.. There must be something more. As we see this activity occurring only in the "conscious" mind of the person under the MRI. The person must first take the sense impression, sound, color or physical stimulation before the MRI can register activity. If the activity is measured, it is of course because the person is thinking of this or that thought or feeling of stimulation.
Even dreams are "objects" of our own perception, as much as we can remember them. I ask how can this be? As we are very little conscious in the dream state. This says that there must be an "observer" somewhere within our being. Had it not been so... then how could "I" relate the dream to my reality in waking life?
This "observer" is what I would call our "spirit" or our "ego" The eternal part of our being that rests, lives, exists within our thoughts.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I agree to the extent that seeing brain activity does not mean there is also an internal spiritual dimension.
But there is no way of knowing. You are simply asserting there is a spiritual element to all this. You don;t know and offer no evidence.
Again the natural explanation could suffice for most experiences deemed spiritual. It could all simply be brain based.
Our minds are amazing. An event such as having a vision is not that much more profound than having a dream.
You seem to be flitting in and out of a naturalistic view and a mystical speculative view.
You don't explain how the ego, sense of self observer etc part of our mind is anything more than a product of our mind/brain. Simply calling an element of our mind/consciousness/self "spirit" doesn't make it an immortal spirit that survives beyond. Its just another word for something that occurs naturally and most likely dies when our brain dies.
Again, noting offered to show that a spirit that is ultimately not reliant on our body. Just because the idea or derivatives is popular doesn't make it true.
Supernatural assertions require reasonable proof otherwise they are just guesses, wishful thinking or unsubstantiated dogma with origins in a time when we had much less understanding about brains and the universe in general.
Mike Robinson
Are all animals "spiritual" creatures? Just mammals? Just animals with convoluted prefrontal cortexes? Or just humans (monkeys in pants). When did this happen in our evolution? 200,000 years ago? 35,000 years ago? July 20, 1963 during the total eclipse of the sun?
As I wrote in another forum thread, "Spirit is a metaphor for currently unexplainable phenomena, or intuitions, of matter and energy".
daniel hehir 20+
To make the assumption that our ancestors simply dreamed up the realm of the spirit is to disregard a possibility that you may not have considered. If you look a little further down on the comments, you will find another way of looking at our ancestors relation to the spiritual world that you may find interesting. I make a comment to Mike Adams which may give you another perspective on this matter.
What appears to us as simple "dreamery and superstition" may be looked at in another light.
Could it be that in ancient times the human being had a more direct access to the spirit realm? If you could take into consideration this possibility, there may present itself another interpretation of what at first sight appears to our modern intellectual mind to be a naive world view of demons and gods. But on second consideration, we have to ask ourselves the question ... Maybe the ancients experienced something that we no longer experience so easily today in 2012.
Consciousness has evolved. We today are highly developed in certain intellectual capacities ... but maybe this development is at the cost of another older stage that has been put aside. Something that has been lost.
Not to say the one is better than the other. I simply state that this is an interesting possibility that one must honestly consider. Our spiritual evolution has many facits.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I'm not surprised our ancestors saw agency behind floods and lightening. I'm not surprised that dreams and visions were treated as portents or communication from a supernatural entity.
We take for granted now that disease is from viruses and bacteria. To the ancients these were magical plagues sent by gods. Many cultures before monotheism had a rich spiritual belief filled with animist entities and spirits. Some still have shamans.
My guess is that goblins, fairy and demons and magic and curses were the explanations developed in a time of relevant ignorance about how the universe worked. The must have been brought up infused with these beliefs. Some still are.
I doubt that our brains have changed much over 50,000 years. The information we put in them has more science. So maybe we are not primed the same way as the ancients so belief paradigms are more restrained by this knowledge. But still our intuition and supernatural ideas persist. For some though the need for evidence and reason comes into how we explain things and what to believe. People believe they see ghosts. They believe they were abducted by aliens. But what has really happened. I woke up once feeling a weight on my legs when I looked I saw small creatures standing on my legs clear as day. I moved my legs and the toppled over, then I rushed out of bed and turned the lights on and their was nothing.
Could be real. Or could be the tale end of some dreamlike state with my eyes open. No evidence for it to be anything else but a product of my mind.
I guess wet dreams were considered visitations by succubus. Epilepsy = demons.
What do you mean by consciousness when you say it has evolved?
I guess only our knowledge and culture has developed not our physical brains for the last millennia. I can understand that having a belief in a spirit world you would intuit a subjective picture of spiritual evolution. I suggest just ideas and culture, We may have lost Zeus, but might we be better off
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I was wondering if we might be better off now with medicine rather than the mythical explanation for disease. That we may be better off understanding storms and earthquakes as natural events rather than punishments from gods. That kids with epilepsy are not possessed.
I'm glad we don't go around killing witches or our neighbours for supposedly cursing us. They still use this as a defence for murder in some countries.
I'm glad this world paradigm has been questioned and helps us avoid theocracies. I'm glad kings are just men by accident of birth now not our rulers by divine right.
I'm glad our laws are constrained by perceived human rights and we are not stoning adulterers in my country because some supernatural god got humans to write this down in a book.
Actually the more I think about this superstition does exist still. There are people that believe in demons and gods and crystals etc. It is just in a more advanced society.
I get your point about losing some richness to the human experience or actually being less in touch with the invisible hidden world if it actually existed. But for me it removes the fear and pitfalls of superstition.
For me organised religion is just codified and organised superstition at heart.
One question Daniel - do you think all interpretations of this supernatural spirit realm are equally valid or is there some streams of teaching closer to the truth?
Mike Adams
To me, spiritual relates to the human spirit (think of calling someone spirited). Psychological doesn't seem to encompass enough for me.
I don't see a border between science and spirit. My sense of spirituality is based in the incredible wonder and beauty that science reveals.
I'm blown away that scientists have been able to "synthesize" a spiritual experience by using magnetic stimulation directed at certain parts of the brain (I can't find my original source on this sorry). This knowledge doesn't soil my memory of previous spiritual experiences, but it does let me know what was going on, physiologically.
Obey No1 (love the name BTW) has taught us well, in that matter is composed primarily of "empty" space. I quote empty because we don't know for sure. It boggles my mind that every object we see is created of the same basic matter, which came into existence roughly 16 billion years ago. No new matter has been created or lost since then. It has simply changed form from energy into various states of matter millions of times and evolved through this incredible series of events and processes to create life as we know it and possibly life as we don't know it somewhere else in the cosmos.
I don't think it likely that science will find a spiritual realm (in any Judeo-Christian sense) but might there be something to the concept of our personalities being energy and therefore never lost? Possibly. I don't think so, but I won't say no, because I don't know and can't know.
I have no opposition to faith or belief. I don't intend to convert people. I simply like a good conversation! I like to be challenged and to examine a topic from every angle. I am comfortable with my beliefs, but happy to challenge them, because I might stumble on a better idea, which I will adopt. I'm glad everyone has been willing to play along :-)
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I've enjoyed the discussion too.
daniel hehir 20+
I fully agree Obey, you do have a tendency to rambling! .. and repeat yourself. But please don't just argue for the sake of "good conversation" itself. It gets rather pedantic after a while. Your responses seem like you almost have a peculiar unconscious fear of the world "spirit" After reading the little story about the two "beings" sitting upon your legs, it really made me wonder. ...
You come with a question at the very end of you most resent comment. you ask
Daniel - do you think all interpretations of this supernatural spirit realm are equally valid or is there some streams of teaching closer to the truth?
My answer is of course not...
Do you think all forms of science are equally valid or are some streams closer to the truth...
One could point at a lot of "superstition" in science if one wanted to... and one wouldn't have to go back very far in history to do it..
One could point to a lot of immorality in science if one wanted to.. also going on this very moment. Immorality didn't stop when witch burning stopped.
This is not my intention.
My intention is to point out that modern science can and eventually will discover the realm of the spirit and when it does, there will "open up a whole new can of worms" as Mike Robinson said.
daniel hehir 20+
"I'm blown away that scientists have been able to "synthesize" a spiritual experience by using magnetic stimulation directed at certain parts of the brain"
I think your referring to a "forced" OBE / NDE ("Synthesize" a spiritual experience)...
Now to "force" ( in the Bible " to take heaven by force" an OBE / NDE is nothing new. Nothing that has come up in the last few years with sciences new found interest in NDE. This has been going on for hundreds, yes even thousands of years.
I can imagine that some people will find the following claim somewhat controversial.
As far back as the time of Jesus and even much further back in time.
There was a time in our history when people had direct access to the "Akashic record" (google it if you don't know what it means) As our evolution progressed, this access to this "spiritual book" (also referred to in the Bible to those who know their Bible) became more and more limited to
fewer and fewer people. These people were the spiritual leaders or prophets of the different societies throughout the entire world. Some older cultures, not yet strongly influenced by the materialistic culture of the west, still have individuals who have contact with this realm. For example in Nepal. Also areas of deepest Africa. Every society had them. Some people have this ability still but only a few. Here in Norway there are several.
As this ability slowly disappeared in a culture, they then found ways ... "initiation ceremonies" that could lead individuals "over the threshold of death" and then back again. This was also practiced by the Jews at the time of Jesus. This is what "baptism" really was.
This is what John the baptist was doing. He was giving people a NDE by not just sprinkling a little water on the forehead as is practiced today... but submerging the person under water until they actually "drowned".
pranoy sundar 20+
still we dont know how big this universe is or how small it is..and about the science , that we are going to use for proving the existance of spiritual world, what once proved right in our science have proved wrong other times and the tools we have today, is definitly more than enough for our needs...but for this purpose, think of the difference..how big is universe and how small is spirit/soul??. it will be like a chimp going for the same with his sticks..
also, we shouldn't be thinking of that unless it will improve or make an impact on our lifes here... its a dead end of thoughts where we get lost... i used to have this same feeling in mathematics exams where i used to think too much and equations get bigger and answers goes far away... i would be thinking in the wrong direction.. but the real procedure will always be simple,,and usually i ends up with a 50 marks thinking for a 5 marks question and yet no answer....doesnt suits here, but just saying :D
daniel hehir 20+
I feel just the opposite. I think science will get there one day. 100 years.. a 1000 years I don't know. But as we continually seek the truth, the real honest truth .. and science generally speaking does this, they have no other way out than to come to this conclusion. If we are truly spiritual beings and not just physical beings then science will find this out.
Some areas I would guess might be through the phenomena of NDE's or OBE's or hypnosis, or trances, possibly through medical technology such as organ transplants, or research into sleep. Clairvoyance is also a possibility. In psychology there are things going on in regressive therapy where people are led back into previous lives.... Could there be something in it??
pranoy sundar 20+
talking about NDE,OBE and trance i think your brain - antenna analogy works there. out of body expiriances makes be believe that consciousness is not brain centered. it is like the signal and can exist without brain. science needs better tools to quantify what consciousness is...and when we discover what consciousness is we will be on the road to provide absolute scientific evidence for spiritual world..but science need material explanation. i have heared that the trance effect can be created in laboratory by a method which actualy confuses our brain and gives us an OBE. but thats all we can do in laboratory...but, intresting thing is that, those who really had an OBE was able to tell where they went and what they saw, which came out as true afterwards. i know some spiritual communities, here in India, which teaches meditation. and what i felt is that, their methods are like self hypnotising to generate a trance..and they seems to be able to do that. they doesnt have any scientific support though. they belive every individual is a soul and souls changes body like we change clothes,,like when one dress becomes not good enough to wear anymore, it chooses another one through death and followed by re-birth.
another thing about proving spiritual existance scientifically is , it appears that a soul is non-physical..then there is no question of a truly scientific explanation having recourse to anything like non-physical souls. also i believe OBE and trance are not hallucinations caused by brains chemical actions...as people frequently learn facts during an OBE that would be very difficult or impossible for them to know on the assumption that it is a pure hallucination...Out of body experiences are real. but to know it, you must have one, and then be able to prove it to yourself..
Adriaan Braam 20+
I hope you like it too and if you want to react privately, that's fine.
http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/documents/TheSpiritualWorld.pdf
daniel hehir 20+
I just wrote a longer comment to Mike Adams a few comment windows up. It would be interesting to hear what you think about this. Swedenborg has surly spoken about it.
Greetings from Daniel
pranoy sundar 20+
thanks for the link, i think Bible have had influenced Swedenborg's views of spiritual world. i came to know that, most of his belives was based on the experiances he had during his trance. as i believe, whatever you feel during trance will be based on the believes you had and deeply believe till then, more like hallucinations.
also, here on earth, good and bad peoples live together, so i dont believe there will be seperate places for good and bad souls (heaven and hell) after life in the spiritual world. and also, Swedenborg seems to belive that angels, which are souls of people ealier lived on earth, effect the enviornment on earth. which i find hard to understand.. soul is non physical and how can it effect the physical world.
one thing i found intresting is the description of judgement day. it says, on judgement day period, souls exibit their true nature.. i have the same believe that souls show their true nature, because logical thinking is not possible without brain...or after death. just consciousness exist. (and hence we cant lie, if we are subjected for a trial). i haven't got a chance to read that book completely, so pardon me if i misunderstood things :)
Adriaan Braam 20+
He describes the spiritual path of humanity as a 'down-fall' in every one of the 5 churches that have existed. Each down-fall is a further removal of the human connection with the spiritual world (not of intelligence). And believe it or not but this is for our protection. For the same reason we do not (or should not) explain all secrets of the sex life to a 10 year old. Or how to use a gun.
A very strong parallel with that path of humanity, is the one we as each individual person, can travel on. The perfect path Swedenborg describes for each one of us, is to proceed from the innocence of ignorance, to finally arrive that the innocence of wisdom.
We can so much depend on, and believe, that what our senses (the serpent) tell us is the only truth, we never even start this spiritual journey. This same spiritual journey is the single and only meaning in the Creation Story.
Swedenborg, as far as I know never made any connection between baptism and NDE. Before which it was circumcision. We certainly believe baptism introduces one to the heavenly society the baptizers belong to, but it does not do one single thing for the child. It is just a ritual and does not change (or save) a person. Neither do NDE's as is clearly shown by someone on this site :)
Did you actually read any of Swedenborg's books? If you'd like to, there is a free download section of all his books on www.Swedenborg.com
Great to hear from you!
daniel hehir 20+
I'm interested in everything... either alive or dead.... Walking or crawling.... Athiest, Christian, Agnostic ... everyone's struggling along the path towards the / their own light.
I'm off to bed now. 1.10 here... catch you later.
Yes, I've checked out Swedenborg. Very interesting I agree!
I