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Atheism as a Spiritual Path
I have been an atheist for a few years now, but I continue to feel the need for a spiritual path and to live with spiritual principles.
PLEASE READ:
http://reasonable-thought.blogspot.com/2011/01/morality-spiritual-atheism.html
I do have a spiritual path, which has found expression in my atheism. It lies in the unimaginable creative evolution of this incredible universe, in the complexity of our ecosystem and the incredible far fetched chance that with all the twists and turns that evolution took along the way, humans evolved and luckily for me, I somehow was born. I experience gratitude that despite all odds to the contrary, I get to experience this crazy and beautiful, yet challenging life, that I get to be a parent and try to make a difference for my fellow humans.
I definitely have a spiritual path. It includes and is largely based on science, on quantum mechanics and theory of relativity. It allows me to sit in awe at the wonder of a developing human fetus, which goes through the stages of evolution in it's mother's uterus. That we are all spawn from matter created from super novas and transformation of energy into matter and back again millions or billions of times until today. We look around and see this mass of diverse matter and life, but it is all star-dust, created by exploding stars and the transformation of energy.
Evolution continues to unfold unbidden and undirected, but incredibly beautiful!
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Adriaan Braam 20+
Basically, as Daniel says, we are spirits in a body. That, however is the tip of the iceberg.
Being a spirit does not mean we are a cloud of something in a body. It means we actually live in a spiritual world while we express and communicate through our physical body.
http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/documents/TheSpiritualWorld.pdf
God set it up in such a way that if we want spiritual answers we need to reed what we (honestly and sincerely) regard as His Revelation. We cannot determine or discover anything infinite or omnipresent by thinking deep thoughts or contemplating with great and very high truths. It does not matter what belief system we subscribe to in this world. What is important is what we DO and WHY.
https://sites.google.com/site/liveitupspiritually/home/writings/DLW_DP.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1
As you noticed Mike, while living in this physical world we experience (and can decide to focus on) two very different spiritual realms or worlds. Heaven and hell. You have met people that showed they were connected to one or the other.
Those two worlds will always exist because it is their balance within us that gives us our free will.
http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/documents/Heaven%20and%20Hell.pdf
Humanity did not get a 'cookbook' to tell us what to do when and how and with how much.. We are human beings and not puppets or animals, we are human beings that are meant to become angels but with the freedom to become devils. We are meant to live our life as WE love to live our life. If it was not like that, this would not be OUR life but someone else's, and what fun is that? :)
This free will exists because God is a God of love, not one who forces us in something we did not choose. Hell is not a punishment, although it may certainly feel like that at times, but the only 'place' we can be selfish and do evil to others.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
You assume a god being, and of a particular form. Again invisible, immaterial virtually non existent.
You believe a lot of stuff from an old book as well as stuff from a more recent human being - Swedenborg.
You could be right about everything but at this stage it is unsubstantiated beliefs and has similarities and conflicts with thousands of other unsubstantiated beliefs.
Don't intend to be blunt, just pointing out what you state as the truth is highly subjective and one of millions of explanations with a lot of assumptions or beliefs that are highly speculative.
Adriaan Braam 20+
"You assume a god being, and of a particular form. Again invisible, immaterial virtually non existent."
I believe that God is spirit, somewhat like we are, but infinite etc. and since He came into the world 2000 years ago as Jesus, He is very imaginable, connectible and can be related to as easily as a distant relative.
Mike, who started this, for some reason has no trouble believing in a spiritual realm. Maybe it would help if you read his link at the very top about what started it all.
Maybe for all Christians everything is based on an old book, but when that old text is maintained over thousands of years with an incredible level of consistency, which now is shown to have application through an internal spiritual meaning of every story and each word. WOW!
Many Christians indeed ignore the Old Testament because it is old stuff and just 'history'. It is like the story of the Valley of Bones in which everything is fully brought back to life.
Also, (and I know not many Christians agree with this) we believe God is a God of love, Who does not condemn anyone for having never heard of a Bible. That's why everyone, everywhere has their own opportunity to have their (local) sacred texts and base their life on that.
As Mike (not Adam) seems to have discovered, to just believe in a higher power can be a very saving experience.
Just a thought, did I ever tell you that every single detail and aspect of the Tabernacle is based on and describes our human spiritual environment?
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I guess I see another side as well. Yahweh is a cruel and jealous god. A tribal god who personally killed thousands (about 300,000 enumerated) and probably millions if you believe the stories of plagues and floods. He ordered millions killed (nearly 4 million enumerated).
Much of the morality of the bible is simply immoral. Sexist, rascist, pro salvery, kill this and that etc
Ignoring the OT is a good way to avoid some of the nasty bits of this god. Good way to avoid dissonance. I just ignore the rest as being anything more than a profoundly important historical and cultural document.
Not sure if the bible is anymore profound that the myths and stories of other religious traditions.
Maintaining accuracy in regards to the myths doesn't mean the stories are true or representing actual reality.
Christians might be surprised how closely how some of the stories closely match other earlier mythologies e.g. Mithra, floods, virgin births.
People ignore it is internally consistent. 2 different genesis stories. OT wargod and NT guru. Different versions of the ten commandments
They might also be surprised that some parts of the New Testament have not been found in older scriptures e.g. the latter parts of Mathew seem to have been added later e.g. speaking in tongues and snakes etc.
Then different christian sects have different bibles, some have more books, some have less.
The inclusion of the 4 gospels seems arbitrary. What about the gospels of Thomas, Judas, Mary M. These are also real historical documents.
Read the NT and after Jesus died they were making up the rules as they went e.g. whether gentiles could join, and whether they had to get circumsized
And there is very little mention of Jesus in any other historical references. No one knows who wrote the gospels down.
Any god that wants people to chop the end of their genitals off seems pretty man made to me.
Add your view to mine and you you get a more balanced perspective of the bible.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Isn't it a bit strange that the creator of the universe for most of human history has only been known to a small % of living humans.
Go back beyond 6,000 years and Judaism did not exist.
Go back 3000 years and Gods chosen were a small backward tribal group in the middle east.
Meanwhile China flourished as a civilization completely ignorant of Yahweh.
After JC, Christianity started to spread round the Roman empire, but not Asia, the Americas, most of Africa, Oceania.
It took till 500 years ago to reach the Americas.
300 years ago to reach New Zealand and Australia.
Not really indicative of being anything related to the creator of the universe.
Further to the god of love. I guess many define the Christian god as Omni, benevolent etc etc
Defining your god this way does not make it so.
Hell is not loving (you may not believe in hell, but others do)
Making the descendants pay for the crimes/sins of others is not loving.
This harsh brutal world with disease and deformity is not the sign of love.
All animals survive by eating or killing other living things. It is survival of the fittest.
Making your existence so unlikely, making it hard to believe or differentiate this god from all the others, is not smart. It is such a tricky system.
Plus the nasty side of god in the bible, the evil biblical morality etc.
Calling this god loving is very subjective and counter to many of the facts and even biblical evidence.
It's like believing whatever gods says is moral by definition even if it is immoral. So if god says marrying a woman who has been raped to the rapist is moral it is moral. Killing witches is moral. Killing disrespect children is moral.
Even the whole Resurrection is a bit off. This god needed a blood sacrifice to forgive us for failing his big set up. Yahweh, being a bronze age god, needed a scapegoat. Why should one man have to suffer for the sins of others. Think about it.
Adriaan Braam 20+
Mike mentions the existence of a spiritual path, even as an Atheist. So there is hope :)
Even while growing up we, at first, take the words from our parents literally. They appear very angry, even to the point we think they may want us dead! How would a child respond if told that it was all based on love?? At some stage in our life, however, we recognize the fact that there is more to it than what they said or did. Humanity also has, and still very much is, growing up and developing.
By taking the Bible literally we can hate God or love Him, depending on what we chose to focus on.
To respond to your very last (and most important) comment first. Maybe you have seen my reaction to that before.
This interpretation shows how off-track Christianity is off this spiritual path. Because Jesus is God on earth. God is Jesus' Soul and Spirit. That's why they are One, just like you and your soul and spirit are one.
Many of us have a GPS that tells us where to go. I see a thousand years from now how we can just tell it where we want to go and it will take the car there. We could go back to sleep. Some time after that we may not know how to drive any more, like some cannot drive a standard now.
God did not give us a spiritual GPS for that simple reason. Every single one of us has to know how to live and love and grow up, spiritually. We have to get on our spiritual path and work on it to get there. To be good has to become second nature, not just fall asleep in a pew because our GPS/God will just get us there.
--"Christians might be surprised how closely how some of the stories closely match other earlier mythologies e.g. Mithra, floods, virgin births."--
That is because God does not care whether we call Him Allah or Buddha etc. All of humanity has been given the information that can work for them.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I think Mike is talking about spirituality in a self actualisation sense rather than a metaphysical spirit sense.
In a non supernatural sense, I consider myself quite spiritual. I usually avoid the word because of the religious and supernatural baggage. But I don't go for unsubstantiated superstition from astrology to whatever.
Often I find I have a naturalistic explanation for things a theist has supernatural explanations. Everything from morality to how humans came to be.
I note some see different religions as discrete and contradictory and others see them as different pathways to the same sort of place. Theism is so wide and varied - some parts adaptable, others locked in and literal/orthodox.
I suggest the reason religions in the same region share similarities is that they borrowed ideas and infused each other.
Adriaan Braam 20+
Often the only reason people are in a religions is because their parents are.
The law seems to keep religions in line as well, it used to be expected you killed those that thought or believed differently.
In a way I'd like to think we've come a long way and still have a long way to go. But to have people like you and Mike with thoughtful questions and a healthy approach to reality only makes the trip better.
Just keep an open mind OK who knows what might fly in :)
There was no room above but I'd like to add:
"I am come from God" (John 8:42); the Body came forth from the Soul. "The Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do"(John 5: 19); the Body can do nothing of Itself, but what it is directed to do by the Soul. "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God"(Matt. 16:16); the Messiah, the Body of the Divine Itself, which alone is Life-in-itself. "This is My beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased"(Matt. 3:17); the Divine Body in which it pleased the Lord to dwell while on earth. "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28); the Soul is greater than the Body, since it directs it. "No man cometh unto the Father but by Me"(John 14:6); just as we cannot know a man’s soul except insofar as his body reveals it, so also the only way we can have any idea of the Divine Soul is by means of the Divine Body, which was visible to man. Or, as it is said in another place, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only Begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him"(John l: 18). "My God, My God why hast Thou forsaken Me?”(Matt. 27:46). On the cross, the last of the Lord’s lifelong temptations, He was painfully aware of the Body to the exclusion of the Soul, as we also are during temptations. The Divine Soul seems to have forsaken it. "Father forgive them..."(Luke 23:34); forgiveness comes from the influence of the Soul, not the body.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I agree we have come a long way. We had the enlightenment, science etc and moved beyond medieval and bronze age morality and beliefs. These have even infused the less fundamentalist believers.
Someone like me stands on the shoulders of giants who found a non supernatural path to better explain the universe and ourselves, who fought against the divine right of monarchs and theocracies, and developed ideas such as equality, liberty, freedoms, secularism, ethics etc.
Most the time there are the same old tired and fallacious arguments - uncaused cause, Jesus miracles and ressurection as if there was any reasonable evidence for this, assumed souls/spirits, the psycologhy of spiritual experience, the misrepresentation of atheism or quoting bits of a book that suit a particular viewpoint. Believer tend to think their mystical view is better than the rest.
The religions we have the most information on were all started by humans (mostly men). Buddha started Buddhism. Jesus started a little cult and Paul, Constantine etc put it on the path to an organised religion. Muhammad started Islam. We know who started Mormanism, JW, Scientology, Christian Science (a woman at last), Jonestown.
The closer we get to verifiable scientific thinking the more the golden age seems magical and mystical and today's religions look simply like cultural artefacts.
The best arguments are things that point towards the improbability of a universe that would support life etc , but this is no proof of a creator let alone a specific deity. Just a question. Almost certainly all the specific detailed religions are made made like languages.
I happen to lean towards questioning whether Jesus actually claimed to be god. Hard to tell how the stories were developed after he dies and before they were recorded. We don't even know who wrote down the gospels. If he did he was delusional
Adriaan Braam 20+
"I happen to lean towards questioning whether Jesus actually claimed to be god."
The Jews heard it loud and clear and were ready to stone Him for it.
BTW, just remembered reading in your 'list' above
--"Maintaining accuracy in regards to the myths doesn't mean the stories are true or representing actual reality."--
Well, when it is now shown to have a consistent, word for word, and applicable spiritual meaning.. it could proof something. There was a reason for not changing a jot or a tittle.
Yes. I do believe in a hell. You can 'see' the existence of it around and in you. That's where ideas pop into our mind from to get us off our spiritual path. Influences from heaven try to keep us on track. Again it is our choice which side we favour.
So is not a hell of eternal punishment but a state of mind that allows us to love ourselves first.
Anyway, I thought you mentioned the fact there are two Creation Stories. You are right and that is because Creation Stories have nothing to do with this physical world. The first story is the creation of a spiritual person from a natural (void) person. The second story is the creation of a celestial person from a spiritual person. There are three levels in heaven, like in the Ark and areas in the Tabernacle. But that is another story.
Just in case you have found that my links don't hurt, this is a short version of Heaven and Hell (it also deals with what happens when we die, going through 3 stages).
https://sites.google.com/site/liveitupspiritually/home/writings/Heaven-and-Hell_Short.pdf?attredirects=0
Obey No1kinobe 50+
We don't know why. You just take it on trust that the bible is accurate in this regard.
I guess he was probably a real person. But if we start believing all old religious writings there are lots of gods and miracles.
Adriaan Braam 20+
"We don't know if Jesus was even crucified for sure. Maybe he was."
He probably was run over by a camel :)
Just like in anyone's life, development starts from the beginning and is done by the parents and our environment, and if done right should be consistent. Old sayings might come back and remembered. Just because they were voiced 10, 40 or 80 years ago does not mean there is no internal meaning or thought behind it. Same with humanity.
You are quite right, all that 'info' I do indeed take on trust and let that guide my life or spiritual path. If I thought that Jewism did a better job I'd be a Jew.
Colleen Steen 500+
I respect your choice to embrace a certain religious belief.
You write..."God set it up in such a way that if we want spiritual answers we need to reed what we (honestly and sincerely) regard as His Revelation. We cannot determine or discover anything infinite or omnipresent by thinking deep thoughts or contemplating with great and very high truths. It does not matter what belief system we subscribe to in this world. What is important is what we DO and WHY".
Your statement seems contradictory to me..."God set it up...we need to reed HIS Revelation". We cannot determine or discover anything infinite or omnipresent by thinking deep thoughts or contemplating with great and very high truths."
Then you state..."It does not matter what belief system we subscribe to in this world. What is important is what we DO and WHY".
I agree that what we do and why we do it is the important part of the life journey. You've already stated, however, that "god set it up...we need to read His Revelation...we cannot determine or discover anything by thinking deep thoughts or contemplating
So, you're saying that what we do and why is important...AS LONG AS WE DO IT under the limited circumstances that you advocate!
You say Adriaan, that "while living in this physical world we experience (and can decide to focus on) two very different spiritual realms or worlds. Heaven and hell. You have met people that showed they were connected to one or the other".
Those two worlds will always exist because it is their balance within us that gives us our free will".
While in this physical world Adriaan, I like focusing on every experience here and now. I see no useful purpose in focusing on heaven/hell, which are concepts that you believe in because of the religious teachings you accept.
To say that you have met people " that showed they were connected to one or the other", is a judgement on your part, and only serves to disconnect people rather than connect. It feels kind of arrogant.
Adriaan Braam 20+
--"Your statement seems contradictory to me..."God set it up...we need to reed HIS Revelation". We cannot determine or discover anything infinite or omnipresent by thinking deep thoughts or contemplating with great and very high truths."
Then you state..."It does not matter what belief system we subscribe to in this world. What is important is what we DO and WHY"."--
By "His Revelation" I do not mean just the Bible. We believe that every single person gets the opportunity to accept the belief in a higher power. As simple as that.
--"So, you're saying that what we do and why is important...AS LONG AS WE DO IT under the limited circumstances that you advocate!"--
Sorry but what am I limiting?
--"To say that you have met people.."--
I said: --"You have met people that showed they were connected to one or the other." because that is what Mike described in his sermon.
Colleen Steen 500+
I agree..."every single person gets the opportunity to accept the belief in a higher power"......or not:>) It is, as you say...that simple:>)
In my perception, you are only limiting yourself:>)
Adriaan Braam 20+
I'm sorry Colleen but that still does not explain how or what I'm limiting.
Am I limiting myself by believing in a God?? Or by believing our actions have spiritual consequences?
Do you think Mike's original statement: "..I continue to feel the need for a spiritual path and to live with spiritual principles" is going to limit him too?
Please explain.
Colleen Steen 500+
To believe that YOUR god and/or YOUR beliefs are the one and only is limiting...in my humble perception. To believe in some of the concepts you preach is limiting...for example...
"while living in this physical world we experience (and can decide to focus on) two very different spiritual realms or worlds. Heaven and hell. You have met people that showed they were connected to one or the other".
Those kinds of beliefs are judgemental, limiting, and only serve to disconnect people.
No...I do not believe that seeking a spiritual path is limiting. You preach this all the time Adriaan...it is how and why we live that is important. That I totally agree with. I love it and totally connect with you and that idea when you express it. Then you go off on one of these limiting (in my perception) topics.... like.... we all see only two different realms...like heaven and hell. Can you not see how those ideas are contradictory?
It feels like every once in awhile, you are speaking from your heart, then you go back to the programming of your chosen religious belief. It is simply my observation.
Adriaan Braam 20+
Many times I have said that we can follow ANY religion or belief system. Many times I have mentioned my motto "IF whatever you believe makes you a better person, BELIEVE IT!"
As humans we have to, and can only, believe what WE see as truth, or it is blind faith.
We can tell everyone to live their life the way they want to, have a great time and practise unconditional love. We can have a great time flying but should we not also mention there is gravity? We can have a great time swimming, but should not forget that water can kill too? When we see the news or read the paper, bad stuff does happen.
Living in a spiritual environment also has its own pitfalls and surprises.
Since you do not believe any of this could we just agree to disagree? The next time you read the word 'religion' could you just exercise some of your unconditional love?
Colleen Steen 500+
I am aware that many times you mention that your motto is "If whatever you believe makes you a better person, BELIEVE IT!". When you say that, it feels like you are actually speaking from your heart, rather than from programmed preaching:>)
Of course we can agree to disagree...I've said that to you many times, and also told you many times that I respect YOUR choice to believe what you choose to believe:>)
I DO always exercise unconditional love for you Adriaan. The topic of this discussion is
"Atheism as a Spiritual Path". Could you stay on topic rather than trying to promote your religious beliefs?
Mike Adams
Today, if I had to define hell, I'd say it being in a position where you are unable to experience love either giving or receiving. But since I don't actually believe in hell, I suppose that isn't too relevant.
I do believe that morality is genetically coded into humanity. A few years back, I watched a National Geographic documentary called, "The Ultimate Survivor." it was fantastic and really looked at a possible evolutionary explanation of morality. That when humanity was nearly wiped out 100k years ago, we came together and formed societies, because people were more likely to survive when they worked together. That people who put their own selfish ambition above the welfare of the group were ostracized and that within a few generation, our ancestors were already forming the genetic tendency towards morality.
--ma
Adriaan Braam 20+
Does that mean sending someone who committed a crime to jail, maybe changes his or her code?
Come to think of it, In a way the word 'code' you use might be what we might call love. Maybe you would say 'we are our code'. I would say 'we are what we love' And then we can change what we love and so change our 'code'. How would that work for you?
I certainly hope that by 'code' you do not mean the chemistry balance in our brain.
Do you believe in free will? If not, do you then somehow feel 'forced' into saying or doing whatever you say or do?
You said above that you are looking for a spiritual path. Did you take the opportunity to see the link above to the book The Spiritual World? Did you see any of the other links? That path you are looking for, should that include some answers as well?
BTW my approach to the spirit is based on what Emanuel Swedenborg wrote. He had a 'NDE' that lasted 27 years. That's why he wrote about 30 books.
I really appreciated your sincerity regarding the spiritual side of life, throughout your sermon.
Mike Adams
Free will doesn't really enter into the equation of genetics, except when someone's genetic makeup robs them of sentience, in which case they also lack free will.
I didn't say I'm looking for a spiritual path, I said I continue to need a spiritual path and I continue to live by spiritual principles.
I do have a spiritual path, which has found expression in my atheism. It lies in the unimaginable creative evolution of this incredible universe, in the complexity of our ecosystem and the incredible far fetched chance that with all the twists and turns that evolution took along the way, humans evolved and luckily for me, I somehow was born. I experience gratitude that despite all odds to the contrary, I get to experience this crazy and beautiful, yet challenging life, that I get to be a parent and try to make a difference for my fellow humans.
I definitely have a spiritual path. It includes and is largely based on science, on quantum mechanics and theory of relativity. It allows me to sit in awe at the wonder of a developing human fetus, which goes through the stages of evolution in it's mother's uterus. That we are all spawn from matter created from super novas and transformation of energy into matter and back again millions or billions of times until today. We look around and see this mass of diverse matter and life, but it is all star-dust, created by exploding stars and the transformation of energy.
Evolution continues to unfold unbidden and undirected, but incredibly beautiful!
Adriaan Braam 20+
A great view of awe, and enjoyment. I can easily embrace that too.
--"Free will doesn't really enter into the equation of genetics"--
I was just trying to find out if you also see that as a human trait or condition, if you even thought it existed, and if so what it is.
What I'm saying is that I believe we have that spiritual level you embrace, because we are a level above animals. We can learn by our actions and their consequences and change. If animals could do the same we'd have less road-kill to worry about.
To get through and out of the need for AA you said it helped to accepted the existence of a higher power. If I may ask, what does that mean to you? So you don't call it God, but would you see it as Influence, Energy, Love, Gravity, Nature.. or just anything outside yourself ?
--"I definitely have a spiritual path. It includes and is largely based on science,"--
In my opinion, spirit is well beyond science and I'm very grateful you made that step. It's a great notion that we not only prepare ourselves, and our kids, for this life but also for the next.
Thanks for this great thread
Mike Adams
I see the universe as a mass of chance and happenstance. If you have ever watched "The Elegant Universe," you could see a summation of my views on existence in the discussion about the "quantum cafe."
BTW, the Elegant Universe is a documentary about String Theory, which isn't actually science, it is philosophy, given the lack of any way to prove or disprove string theory. It simply makes sense mathematically for now.
Thanks for participating...though I don't believe in a next life. I think that is why social justice and standing up for what is right feels so immediately important to me now. Because I believe this is our one precious life and I don't think anyone should have to sacrifice it to feed someone else's avarice.
I expect my kids to stand up for people who are being bullied. I speak out strongly against homophobia and other forms of bigotry. I often serve as the "harshing the buzz" guy in a room, by bringing up child starvation or enslavement or sweat shops. I ask people to avoid Wal Mart and I try to promote permaculture. I want to leave a better world for my children and though I'm often ineffective, I keep trying to make a difference.
Mostly, I think that by engaging in big questions and continuing to examine and question our own beliefs, people will tend to have enough humility that we can move away from prejudice and bigotry. I see certitude as the enemy.
daniel hehir 20+
... But isn't it just exactly that we are all looking for...?? Is not science looking for the highest degree of certitude... in absolutely all aspects of research...?
Adriaan, yes, ...in the next life .. and the next life ... and the next .... and the next
Mike Adams
But science is a way of viewing the world, which does not really look for certitude, in fact, it embraces questions. True, at the point someone has proven with multiple trials that 100% of the time you can produce a specific result by following a specific set of procedures, that provides a sort of certitude, but it is not the end, it is the means to throwing out another hypothesis, to further engage our curiosity and wonder.
Maybe?
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I note science updates when a better theory is found. Some types of religious belief do not. Scriptures don't update when humans work out slavery is not acceptable, or that freedom of religion is a good thing etc.