This conversation is closed. Start a new conversation
or join one »
Why has humanity not solved the problem of "Man-Made" suffering created by evil; how do you feel.
Answers which are long or are simply quotations are likely to lead to replies which challenge; by saying you are wrong and then we may extend into a debate. Be courageous; stick to no challenge and no reply. Don’t be afraid of those who will simply say your logic wrong; they are not God and this not a debate. Stick with what you are prepared to die for.
Remember the devil loves the long and quotations; and he is everywhere, especially where there is the power of media; beware
The Talks below are a pre-requisite to providing your thoughtful answer, avoid being unaware of their splendid contents.
Topics:
evil-justice joy kindness love pain
Don Wesley 50+
An Indian lad and his close friend, were walking along Broadway near Times Squares, in New York city, when he stopped and said he just heard a cricket. “Impossible,” his friend replied, “there is just too much traffic noise to hear such a thing. The Indian, reached into a flower pot, at the entrance to a store and removed a hand-full of earth revealing a cricket. Clearing his hand, he grasped a handful of pocket coins and dropped them to the sidewalk, attracting the attention of several walkers; “we both have been given ears to hear and yet we are tuned-in, to hear different messages,” was his exclamation.
After hearing this story, my mind flipped over to the three-monkeys; and then flipped again to another set of words [see evil, hear evil, talk about evil; then with your hands do something to overcome the situation of evil which has been revealed to you. Decide not to be, just a too busy passer-by.]
Feel free to use my comments and reveal this as part of my living story.
Elder Don
Peace.
John Dunbar 10+
Don Wesley 50+
Your comment, I view as a building block for your story which I hope you will reveal, over time and conversation; as such I see it as helpful and elegant.
I feel your comments are close to a fundamental truth.
Sigmund Freud did change the direction of thinking by his own quest for truth.The "Law" of my truth is found in the understandings of the Christian faith, which, for me, is permanent and eternal.
Other views do not make a good man bad. My hope for humanity is that we make good men better.
Needless to say my belief establishes how I perceive a given situation in any given conversation.
We all have equal ears, but what we hear is different; what we declare by talking, may lead to truth or more confusion. Please come back often, to reveal more of your building blocks for your story.
More is needed to complete the house of my story, as well. We can debate, using critical thinking, in later conversation. At this moment in time there is a need for short stories and short talks; you have met the challenge and I shout ‘Bravo.’
Peace,
Don
John Dunbar 10+
As an atheist I don't share your faith, but I think we envision a world that looks relatively the same. I couldn't agree more when you stated "other views do not make a good man bad" i have many friends who are deeply spiritual and religious, we will talk long into the night about our differences, but at the end of the day we have mutual respect for one another. Simply because we envision a world where people care and feel for strangers as they would there family. Is this naive? Probably so, nonetheless when an experience touches you to your innermost dimension one must not repress this for social inclusion. Instead, when having an experience that touches the deepest layers of the human experience we must either stand or remain seated. I applaud you for standing.
As for my story, with every word I type it slowly permeates each letter and word. I look forward to further discussion and the unveiling of the multitude of human experiences from all the members of TED.
-Brian
Don Wesley 50+
Hi Brian.
Knowing more about you, I now have a greater need for discussion with you and look forward with joy. My son is a psychiatrist, and my mission in life is to grow the awareness of "Childhood Rage" and how it has a causal significance in the injustice flowing from our family court system.
Don [From the Silent Generation]
Don Wesley 50+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XhirrSEKjI&feature=related
Adriaan Braam 20+
Until we do know what evil is and what the origin of evil, we may sound like a great choir, but become boring when we can produce only one note.
Evil is part of the great design. Since we were created as imperfect, mortal human beings, evil will always exist. It is part of the equation.
God does not make mistakes, either in designing humanity or 'controlling' it. Evil is here for us to have a choice.
Hopefully for the good.
We were created to make the correct choices, to become receivers AND returners of God's love. Complete the love/electrical circuit.
People created evil by accepting the notion that we don't need God. We switched from eating from the tree of Life to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The only way to "solve the problem" is to recognize God as the single, only origin of good and truth and follow His advice as to how to apply those two to our life.
Only that will take the hell out of us and give room for heaven. IOW put is back in Eden. This link is to the 'inside' story what happened around Eden, at the time.
http://sites.google.com/site/liveitupspiritually/home/writings/Arcana%20Coelestia%2001.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1
Appreciated you link to Ben.
Don Wesley 50+
I never like to agree to a comment, because of the danger of ambiguity.
In this instance I will focus on your last paragraph:
”The only way to "solve the problem" is to recognize God as the single, only origin of good and truth and follow His advice as to how to apply those two to our life.
Only that will take the hell out of us and give room for heaven. IOW put is back in Eden. This link is to the 'inside' story what happened around Eden, at the time.”
http://sites.google.com/site/liveitupspiritually/home/writings/Arcana%20Coelestia%2001.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1
Adriaan, you have wisely given us the map to Truth.
Don
Stewart Gault 30+
Adriaan Braam 20+
Earth, and our body, was created so we had the option to chose, to learn and to love others and God OR ourselves and this world.
This is the training ground, the gym or seedbed of eternity.
Just as no one becomes a doctor by going to the hospital and putting on a white suite. God cannot put is in heaven or hell without giving us a choice. If that choice is not there, we are not humans but puppets. We are now deciding our eternity.
The literal, historical text in the Bible is written by people from their perspective. How they saw or thought things happened. Just like during the Crusades.. "God wants it!!" Bull!!
One more thing. I'm talking from the perspective not of a Christian but of a New Christian. This is based on, as we see it, the Second Coming.
Which means we do NOT believe God had His Son murdered and many, many other mis-interpretations based on the literal text of the Bible.
(thanks Don)
Stewart Gault 30+
Adriaan Braam 20+
--"..people go there then he'll be forced to love himself then,.."--
We do not become God or part of anything infinite. We are born and thus are not eternal, although when conjoined with God, will because of that live to eternity.
There exist many misconceptions about what the next life is all about. But now someone has actually come back and told us about it in detail.
And heaven is exactly what you described by saying "doing what they [or we] enjoyed" or loved doing.
There is no physical fire in hell either, because it is a spiritual environment there is nothing that can actually burn. What it means is there is hate in hell between selfish people. Love and hate are spiritual activities.
This is just information and a very popular book dealing with the details I mentioned earlier.
No need to start on page one, just chose any chapter that seems interesting to you.
http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/documents/Heaven%20and%20Hell.pdf
J M
Answer:
Because humans who use words like "evil" still out breed humans who solve problems more accurately.
Simple actually.
Scott Nesler
I could be accused of hypocrisy in this thought, though ignorance is a word worthy of universal respect. It is what it is and to some degree we are all guilty of it. I wish the universal definition of ignorance was "not understanding". Evil comes from actions. There is a debate in this thought. If we choose to not understand the collateral risk of our behavior, are we responsible? Damage where the collateral risks are understood and weighed against the benefits acquired from such action, is that really evil? In the mind of those effected by the damage, I would guess so. Those on the side of benefit, maybe not.
Words often get in the way of understanding. I see where 'evil' and 'ignorance' distract understanding.
Don Wesley 50+
My emotion is bold and courageous; not malice. I seek truth for the betterment of all. My victory if any will be in a celestial conversation. Your mis-perception is responsible for how you describe the situation.
I am very clear that I am "targeting systemic evil." Evil that makes good men bad and creates man-made suffering. I have directed you to powerful testimony which reveals that I am not alone in my views; follow my links and read Mitch Smith’s comments.
You have told us your story, which suggests your culture is Christian; that being so you should recognize this story belief of mine >> Using the term "collateral-damage" maybe a more acceptable way of growing an audience, but at some point one must become honest and call it "evil-damage"
Integrity is more powerful than elegance, and knowledge is freedom!
If you persist on moving towards an essay rather than a story, I won't urge you to stop; the conversation itself will reveal a story of truth. Re-visit my topic description!
I do welcome your challenge, it is a real part this living story.
Peace be with you.
Don
Scott Nesler
Below I suggested an individual's faith is between God and self. That does not discount that we all judge. Whether we are good at it is another story. There are two parties in the judgement process. The plaintiff and the defendant. A plaintiff often has a purpose which in itself can be judged. Intent can be incorrectly decided based on the malformation of words. Our society is limited to a first impression. Wisdom is an iterative process of identifying mistakes and moving onto the next problem. So maybe my story to share is; society must balance justice with wisdom.
Don, this is my story which I so desperately wish to share. It may sound judgemental and maybe it is, though I have yet to learn how to explain any other way.
The terminology in your query is evolving; Good, evil, justice, judgement, ignorance, respect, communication, beast, feral-child, and wisdom.
Don Wesley 50+
“But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and join to his wife; And they two shall be one flesh: so then they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder.”
Don
Don Wesley 50+
At some point in a man's life and his search for contentment, he finds he cannot resist the need to become one with another, till death do them part. And he will serve all her needs, and she will honour and follow him.
"The Lord God said, 'It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him'...and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. Then the Lord God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said, 'This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called 'woman,' for she was taken out of man.' For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.”
Don
Don Wesley 50+
I hear your statement, which appears to me, as questionable logic at first glance; it also labels;[stigmatizes]
Judges in the Family Courts make decisions, not with accuracy, but by deciding which story seems most likely true.
If you disagree with Zimbardo's explanation of evil, “making good men into bad,” just simply say so.
Personally I truly would like to hear your story.
Don
Don Wesley 50+
I write you this very short comment, to direct you to another clarifying video talk.
YOUR HONOR? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PMGG_QZkuM&feature=related
Don
Scott Nesler
The Do Good Gauge has broken the U.S. Constitution into segments. Eventually these segments will provide a reader the ability to tag a segment of an authors essay. Other readers will be able to grade the relevancy through a gauge where +1 is highly relative and supportive, 0 is not relative, and -1 is highly relative and counter supportive.
Another idea is to categorize every supreme court docket case and provide reference to each oral argument. Audio recordings of all Supreme Court cases are available through 1955. As part of the website a librivox type of system could recruit members of the public to record in audio format cases before 1955. Giving the public access to such knowledge allows them to apply association to those willing to publicly document their ideas on a site such as the Do Good Gauge proposes. Such association provides an opportunity for a laymen to practice jurisprudence.
This same thought could be used to develop association database for the court systems at every demographic level of government, including globally.
I realize the average citizen cannot practice law, but such an idea as this describe can hold the court systems accountable along with the lawyers who are suppose to be represent the best interest of a client.
This idea does not exist, but it may be worthy of further discussion.
Don Wesley 50+
Common sense also guides my perception of situations and my reply is, "this topic is all about the absence of justice, and telling your living story, is to better our knowledge. This is the place to do so. The light before you is green." Carry on.
Don
Don Wesley 50+
In the Family Court, where my personal case is still alive, a citizen is allowed to represent himself.
This new in the Montreal Court. [I learned the lesson and called myself a fool; this is another story]
Don
Don Wesley 50+
Another story:
Here is a Canadian Fathers story in Video:
Courts From Hell -- Family InJustice in Canada http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6yAzhEf-Og&feature=related
Don Wesley 50+
If we "fail" to create a love filled "getting to know you talk" does that not tell us something about the meaning of ignorance?
Billy Graham said in his well received talk to an TED audience, " we have "failed' to even understand the relationship between "evil, suffering and death."
President Kennedy told us, that the hottest places in hell are reserved for those of us, who choose to sit on the fence of indifference, in times of crisis.
In this very short and remarkable conversation, key thoughts appear to me: ignorance, evil, kindness, love, joy, happiness, argument, short attention-span, agitation, ego, bewilderment, wisdom, surprise, urgency and even more.
I still maintain that where there is challenge and agreement there is Ego and an absence of empathy We also saw talks about melting the Ego away. Why is it so difficult to listen to and enjoy real life stories in small conversations. Is it because of Ego interruptions; TED talks get applause not Ego interruptions, and those in the audience pay to visit and hear.
We respond to stories with feelings; whereas we respond to theories with thinking and argument.
Both are essential, but not at the same gathering. Time to meditate [in solitude] is needed to melt the ego away. That is part of my two stories.
I hope you have more of your story to add.
Don Wesley 50+
I have an old wise friend from Hong Kong [He is Chinese] whom I adore. Two months ago we were sharing some thoughts about his recollection of my story telling. I received some good feedback from him, because with a smile, he said "Don, short story, long talk." At the time I was in distress with great pain, but he understood and was patient and glowing with empathy. He perceived and named all the emotions I went thru and give me charity. Their writing symbols are stories.
Enjoy, Don
Scott Nesler
Don Wesley 50+
I am always happy to hear from you. The sentence is not complete, something is missing.
I do write with an epad and then past into TED comments. I suspect you have uncovered a typo error here. Is that what you are directing me to.
Don
Scott Nesler
Don Wesley 50+
I asked a reflective question, "how do you feel" rather "what do you think" because I was taught years ago that guests are more likely to feel comfortable with reflective questions; they establish comfort and welcome. Feelings can change, while declarations of thinking require prudence. There less risk of spoiling the party with reflective questions and I feel we learn more about each other. We allow for difference more easily. People who enter the party with an "axe to grind" are not welcome guests and Ego-tapes, repeatedly used are a bore. In British stories of old we might have heard the expression, "Mr. Jones, would please escort this Gentlemen to the door.
Wise people I think, prefer nice over nasty. It is I believe a better way of getting the best from everyone. I confess here I have been called nice and kind and at times nasty. In my eightieth year, I have a big history of learned options. I am still not wiser than a much younger man or woman, Given a choice of labels, I would prefer stern or assertive than nasty. When I join your party I promise to remain alert to your lead.
So this is my story. I love hearing stories and the story behind the story. I am told that in Japan, stories are much more important than getting down to business. So I ask you to invite and assure them we will not bite. We need to hear from many more. Bring your pain and your joy. If I am a absent from the wheel-house, please take over for me.
Don
Don Wesley 50+
In the light of love and truth we have fellowship with one another.
Awareness, caring, empathy, overflows the ignorance with light.
This faith is so simple it seems childish; that is why so many walk away.
Don
Don Wesley 50+
I am hoping that the postive thinking of Scott Nesler will soon be revealed by his presence.
Invite Brothers, "Invite."
Don
Scott Nesler
I don't see the Do Good Gauge as a competition to TED, though I do believe there are participants in humanity with something to say, but lack the media to hone the skill of intellectual argument. What TED has here is a stepping stone for a better tool. It is a start to give opportunity for those less equipped to participate.
Mitch's optimism in the potential of communication is where my hope and positive thinking comes from. His thoughts of empathy is what differentiates us from the beast. Is evil a beast? Is ignorance a beast? When a man is born to solitude his intellectual and social characteristics resemble most wild animals. He is a feral-child. Communication leads to socialization with the potential to develop empathy toward others, the future, and a sustainable environment.
Communication may not be the only answer, but sharing and advancing thought is of the utmost importance to increase empathy. And empathy will diminish the beast among us.
I'm curious how some species deals with the strongest among them when the individual brings destruction to the heard. How does a lion's pride deal with an alpha male who continually leads them to desolate lands? I would assume there are times when an alpha-male is overthrown by the pack.
We are human. If the alpha-male or survival of the fittest is a component of humanity, I have to ask how Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, or Stan Kroenke acquired their order in the pride. Luck has as much merit in this argument. Are these individuals strong and wise? Or are the rest of us less so? What was the inefficiency of communication's role in advancing these men's status?
Stewart Gault 30+
Don Wesley 50+
Which of the stories will have most loving truth and survive the longest are the best.
I personally don't follow Gates or Buffet. I suggest we follow "the word" of The Great Architect Above. Wisdom flows from the Mountain and not from man. Man will always be tempted to accept the Devils offer of luck. We can never know the sins of Gates or Buffet. He who says he never sins is a Liar, according to Volumes of Sacred Law.
Truth is Yes or No; essays of logic are detailed and long and where Devil outsmarts us all.
Brotherly love,
Don
Scott Nesler
My culture is Christianity. I try to ride the fence on arguments of religion. I recently ran across Gödel Philosophical Viewpoint where his last bullet, # 14 stated, "Religions are, for the most part, bad—but religion is not." I feel what Gödel is saying is what you are saying about logic. That logic can be used for ill-purpose, but in itself it is good.
The relativity of God is so complex. Almost as complex as good. I believe God is good is a symmetric equation. Whether this is true or if God exists, I leave to hope. Some claim to know the divine, I continue to search in the symmetry of the equation.
In pursuit of good, emotional arguments fed by fear, hate, biases, bigotry, or disrespect for reason are often used. It is my belief we are all motivated to do good. In other words, few pursue evil. Evil is an outcome of ignoring the collateral damage of our good intentions. (These last two paragraphs were lifted from the "This I Believe" essay on the Do Good Gauge website).
I try to keep an open mind to the good in the belief of God. I see no malice in Pascal's thought, "Belief is a wise wager. Granted that faith cannot be proved, what harm will come to you if you gamble on its truth and it proves false? If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation, that He exists. "
The concept of a judgement day is imaginable. Upon completion of each life span, what if there was a final exam? How to prepare? Could mere mortals develop a Do Good Gauge as a moral compass? Could a gauge motivate competition for a higher level of good?
"Neither wisdom nor good will is now dominant. Hope lies in dreams, in imagination and in the courage of those who dare to make dreams into reality." -- Jonas Salks
Scott Nesler
If there is a soul I equate it to faith. I refuse to give my soul to any religion or another's opinion. My soul is driven to discover, to seek the truth, to help explain what is learned. My faith is between self and the maker. In accordance to the Bible it is not of yours to judge. Each of us must find the way. In the end each of us will or will not answer to a higher power. In accordance to reason this is true by Tautology in the Law of the Excluded Middle. The answer is in the Yin and the Yang of the problem. (I am) or (I am not). The enjoyment may or may not be in the journey. To be or not to be, that is the answer. Truth can be simplified or reveal new questions.
Peter Law 30+
Evil is that which contradicts the will of our creator. We have used our free will to embrace evil; how then can humanity "solve the problem"? We, of course cannot, but Jesus our creator has supplied an escape route. I would suggest we take it while we still can.
:-)
Don Wesley 50+
We are on the same page.
The Devil controls the world and only we humans can overpower him with the power of The Great Architect Above; that power is LOVE.
Leaving the control in the Devil's hand and his evil doers, delivers injustice, poverty, man made suffering and hate.
Don
Stewart Gault 30+
Don Wesley 50+
Are you challenging someones thinking?
Don
Don Wesley 50+
There are the goal posts of justice on earth and the final set of goal post elsewhere.
Don
Stewart Gault 30+
Don Wesley 50+
The topic doesn't ask for what we are thinking, but how we are feeling, it is a reflective question.
Peace and fellowship and love
Don
Stewart Gault 30+
Don Wesley 50+
True Stewart; but they are different. The difference is very important. I won't explain here; but I will offer an old bit of wisdom from my mountain - "Joy shared is doubled. Argument is hard work and too often painful." If you think you have found a new truth, share it as a story, with joy as your emotion and let your listeners make up there own minds; they are not your lambs. There are “many emotions” and having empathy for all brothers requires us knowing all emotions. Making a good man better is too lead him know all emotions. This what I feel, and I don't declare as a law. If you feel pain with this conversation express it with the emotions of pain. Pain shared in fellowship, gets you sympathy and understanding. So my story is about discovering ways of easing suffering and maximizing joy; it is not a search for more laws of right and wrong. My intention is to avoid "side effects which are painful."
I believe our conversation might reveal some important feelings. I also hope our very short stories will be joyfully logical even funny.
Two men were arguing; one sat with his hands in his pockets. His opponent stood and talked and won the argument. When asked why he lost the argument he confessed his hands were cold.
Please tell your story Stewart.
Brotherly love, Don
Obey No1kinobe 50+
We may not even agree there.
If you say evil is whatever is against the rules of some divine dictator that probably doesn't exist then we are starting from completely different mindsets.
Also if you personify evil as a devil entity, we are in completely different worlds.
For me homosexuality is not evil. Forcing someone to have sex against their will is evil. Cutting the end of children's penises is evil. Killing people because they do not believe the same as you is evil. Disproportionate punishment is leaning towards evil. The state having the power and executing citizens is evil. Certainly Yahweh is evil. Not giving people the same rights because of sex, religion, sexuality, ethnicity etc is leaning towards evil. I think slavery is evil. Eternal damnation for finite crimes is evil.
We may agree on some examples. And disagree with others.
Personally I think the word evil is tied up too much with religious supernatural baggage.
Ethically bad, harmful etc maybe less loaded.
Why have we not solved the problem of harm, selfishness etc? Why do humans still do bad things to others.
Because we are caught between instinct and reason. The old religious moral codes are out of date and need to be updated in many regards they are immoral from a modern human rights enlightenment perspective. If we moved to assessing what is morally good and bad from a secular harm perspective we would be much better off in my view. Otherwise if your god says something is good even though it is harmful and hateful - you think it is right. Kill these people or that. Enslave these people and keep the virgins. Human sacrifice. Animal sacrifice etc. We can do better than the that.
Fundamentally we evolved in a competitive world. Part of our success is cooperation, but the competitive selfish par tis still there. We have brains and can do better.
Don Wesley 50+
You define "evil" it as you feel it. I have supplied the pre-requisite notion by Zimbardo and others. Here I have limited the topic to man-made suffering. What paradigm of ethics would you fight and die for, is your choice to declare.
It is true that Zimbardo does imply that the "devil" takes charge of a good-man and has him do "bad," like using unbelievably huge power to torture an imprisoned man. Anything bad is a question for justice; but I decided to factor-out that notion for this conversation and discuss it[later] in a debate type conversation; as a truly valid issue which it is. To solve a very complex problem, requires us to “find,” the right question to debate. To accomplish that we must be patient; I am not suggesting an eternity of patience, which tends to defeat the power of hope. Just accept my guidance for this conversation, which can’t take more than 30 days.
Brotherly love
Don
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Adriaan Braam 20+
No evil - No choice
I would like to say that evil has a less firm grip on humans as it used to have. This has become, and still is becoming a better world. I'd also like to have the positive perspective that God is in charge and we will finally not go down the drain.
Humanity here is the seed bed of heaven. Life is not about this life but the next. Death of the body is nothing but a slight transition of one stage to the next. What we love now we will love then.
Our character is all we take with us. Building character is using our power to fight and conquer evil. One thing, however, I would like to make very clear. By and from ourselves we can do nothing! We, personally, have no power of our own to fight evil, to change what happens to us. The only way to get a better (and loving, and human) life is to acknowledge that God does the fighting for us. But He only does the fighting for us when we ask Him to. Every single word in the Bible is about the ball being in our court. We are the humans, we are the ones that have to open the door because Someone is knocking on it.
Life has to become more than our monthly banks statements, the technologies we have in our pocket and the name tags on our clothes.
In order to go beyond that stuff, we need to believe, if nothing else, in a higher power. The result of believing in a higher power will cause the following signs to appear in our life:
http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/documents/Signs_fol_believe.rtf
Then we will become truly human and live beyond the grasp of evil. That's when God can take the day off :)
R H 20+
Mitch SMith 50+
As a species we are young, few of us get the opportunity to see beyond today, let alone tomorrow.
We are living in exciting and dangerous times, If we get past this century, I believe we will do as well as the dynosaurs.
Our massive advantage in symbolic language means, fo the first time (that we know of), that a complex creature can converge with another. The brilliant thing about that is that it is not necessarily species specific.
THis allows for even greater horizons.
We just have to mature a little bit more.
The work of Steve Pinker seems encouraging.
Don Wesley 50+
Being truly on opposite sides of the Globe we seldom meet in the same moment, but we really do communicate with love and honesty.
Peace be with you
Don
R H 20+
Mitch SMith 50+
All you need for functional symbolic language is:
* the capacity to retain mutual convention of symbolic association (agreed common words/signs) and
* capacity to form autobiographical self models.
I once had a cat who thought he could talk. Certainly, he could say the word "hello" very clearly and used it in correct context. At other times when me and my family were in conversation, he would join-in with approximations of words with human-sounding cadence and tone. He recognised the polite rules of not interupting and would take his turn to add his oppinion.
Of course, a cat cannot anunciate consonants - so it was impossible to tell if any real words were in there. My impression was that all his communication amounted to the basic "I am here - you are there" that all vocal creatures indulge in. A cat might have some limited capacity for autobiographical forecasting, certainly they can conduct sophisticated planned tasks such as leaping on prey. But they are not very good at politics - I believe they are incapable of assessing what is going on in another's mind beyond extrapolating what is in the senses/primary field of perception.
Mind you, that particular cat did have the capacity to blame the dog when we found a half-eaten chicken on the floor with cat teeth marks all over it. I beleive the cat and dog cooperated to get the chicken out of the fridge - the cat could not open the door, but the dog could.
I came in the front door to the usual "hello", then a stream of excited cat-talk. Couldn't really tell if he was saying "sorry about the chicken" or "the dog did it" or "hey look see what we did! Cool huh!".
If we were to evolve or modify humans into a new species, I think we'd be able to communcate with them perfectly well.
Or why not modify cats so they can handle consonants?
Don Wesley 50+
In this conversation, I hope to "show, a huge display of Brotherly Love, and a contrasting background of ignorance.” The strategy, “talk less and show more.”
LOVE - http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2011/12/love.html
LOVE - http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2011/05/look-of-kindness-in-action.html
IGNORANCE - http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2011/12/hear-no-evil-see-no-evil-and-speak-no.html
Brotherly Love
Don
R H 20+
Don Wesley 50+
Don
Comment deleted
Don Wesley 50+
I know your intentions will compel you to do good and fight evil.
Your contribution here reveals your integrity.
Brotherly Love
Ancient Don
Don Wesley 50+
I feel delight and hope, when reading your comments. You are only 19 and filled with a garden of wisdom.
How did your garden grow Kent. Please tell us your story.
Brotherly love
Don
Don Wesley 50+
Our conversation started on 06/03/2012 3:39:23 PM UTC. We can extend it up to one month from this date.
This little neighbourhood "getting to know you" gathering is just started, and has 29 parts out of 30 before we leave to go home.
I'm in Canada, Mitch lives down the street in Australia, J.S. has yet to say where in our village he is living, and Feyisayo Anjorin lives across the valley in South Africa and Stewart Gault lives on United Kingdom road. and Gerald O'brian is just east of me on Andorra, Andorra City. Eberhard Schmitz is almost close enough to me on Canada Lane to hear him singing. I already know a few more in our village who should be walking in shortly after their morning chores are done.
I do have a picture of my to show you over here; take a look at the kindness of my neighbours children - http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2011/05/look-of-kindness-in-action.html. We can look forward, "to knowing all about you."
Also, there is a thought I'm always inclined to share, you can see it here http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2011/12/love.html
I will be back in a slice of time
Until soon, Don.
Mitch SMith 50+
At 12 years old, i was at a friend's place. I began suffering an asthma attack stronger than anything I had experienced.
I made my polite farewell to my friend to not inflict him with my stress.
I got about half a block home and could not breathe .. my Bronchi had all closed shut and the air of my mouth could not enter .. I began to fade to black and I knew that if I did not reach ionto myself and overcome death, I would be dead.
And so I did - I found the path .. the switch to relax my bronchiae so that I could exist. I sat for 20 minutes perfecting the conection util I was breathing normally.
During that time, 20 people passed me by - none of them took more than cursory notice - of a 12 year old boy dieing of asphyxiation.
I have no tollerance for all the talk - it is all delusion. It is not until you face death that you know what life is. And the power of us.
We walk around in our obscene comfort - afraid of the moment of death, and yet, we ignore our true selves. WHat we are, is far more powerful than all the talk talk talk. Stop talking - start doing, you are far better than you have been told.
Damn your politeness, damn your niceness, damn your civility - it is all lies. Real life is life against death, and you are so used to your comfort, you have no idea what that means.
THis will get deleted by the TED admins.
I look forward to that as my vindication.
Move along .. nothing to see here.
Stay comfortable - stay nice .. stay ignorant.
Don Wesley 50+
Somehow you have felt compelled to reveal to us all what is vital to you. To me they are related and it takes courage to say so. No one should feel shame or guilt in this conversation; it is not a debate it is a confession of what we know and feel about; what is real and expecting our attention. I urged all to tell the truth they are prepared to die for. You are living out your frustration for everyone to see. I also believe that having good ideas is great, but is only talk, until we each say what we are going to do.
You are a complicated man in an infinitely complex world, and my sense is that you are living evidence of having experienced your Ego fall away and know what it means to roll up your sleeves and work to your last breath. I find your contribution magnificent and almost magical in timing.
As Zimbardo has revealed to us, it is the power of organizations that can grow a simple good man to become bad. Can we “alone” do something about that? Absolutely yes is the answer. He has also revealed that doing something as simple as seeing and revealing is linked to all three of what we are talking about. [Evil, Suffering and Death] The three monkeys together saying see no evil, and hear no evil and talking no evil, is a vivid symbol of what we as individuals must not do. We must melt our egos away and see what is going on as we walk around and react to what we see. Twenty walked by you while you were struggling to live. Passive evil – shameful really.
I am not letting up until we get a situational story, that will grow itself. Seeing your frustration, turn into resignation and apathy, is not something I can walk away from. I want to see the kindness in all our brothers; many already know. Mitch we need your wisdom.
Brotherly love
Don
Mitch SMith 50+
THere was a man engaged in a charity run around a city block.
He was running hard as he could for the orphans, then another man drew close to challenge his lead.
They strained to be the first over the line - to do their n'th degree for their commitment and self esteem.
The man collapsed over the line feeling that he came in second and let the orphans down.
But the scrutineers waved the other man to do the necessary 10 more laps and put the crown on the exhausted man lying dehydrated and desparate in the gutter..
If only that was true.
It is not - in the small perception of people, it is only the one who seems to be first that gets the prize.
I've been round and round the block so many times that everyone thinks I have only started. They pop out their front doors and run half way round expecting accolades. ANd they get them.
So what use have I for accolades?
What I care about is the orphans.
Nothing else. Putting crowns on lazy comfortable egotists means nothing.
Putting food into the hands of the starving means everything. THey cannot eat crowns or words.
To me, evil suffering and death mean nothing - they don't equate. I am civil enough to be honest with you from what I have learned. I am not playing games wiith your heads.
Evil is in the perverse involution that is the fall of lucifer and in the farming of men. Lucifer is the 2-edged sword that brings us advantage as humans on the one edge and brings our fall in falsehood on the other edge. It is a swinging pendulum of ascent and descent - who truly knows the ballance?
Suffering.. Is that pain? Or is it struggle. You will get so much pain in a life - but the struggle is all just you.
Death. Death is just that. there is nothing mystical about it. Only the living care about death. DEath is easy. At the point of death, one only thinks about the suffering of those who love you. Nothing more.
Don Wesley 50+
Brotherly love
Don
Mitch SMith 50+
Yes. I have walked along and entered total dissolution of my self. THe extacy of that frightened the hell out of me, I could not sustain it. I've been there a few times.
The task is to not be afraid .. so far I have failed.
I am ernestly experimenting and trying to find the great open door that I can share.
So far .. All I have found with any reliability is the little flute - the irish whistle, for the price of a couple of coffees, one can pick this little guy up and find a path that goes all the way into heaven.
The discipline of self-discovery and the access to millenia of tradition and the sense of self excellence that is not measured by local competition. to express and be.
Now I don't make the 2-coffee whistle, i set the standard for the journeyman to have a goal. And that is my secular jehad.
My spiritual jehad is here in TED .. just my opinion. In a sea of unresolved opinions. Hypothesese all, no theory .. no math. And I hope to give ingress into that. I'm not doing too bad.
Join me - let me join you - we are far from alone. ANd there is far to go.
Don Wesley 50+
Mitch SMith 50+
Evil will cause struggle - when one is supplied with falsehood all subsequent action is conflicted. Evil, rather than ignorance, intends this conflict and leads the lambs to the slaughter.
Death .. I can't see the link .. perhaps we could link the state of the "living dead" those trapped on treadmills like mice feeling they have no alternative. It is interesting that the devil card in tarot alerts the reader to think about what alternatives have been deliberately hidden.
No matter what the evil do, the answer to struggle has always resided in the individual. It is true that many are led to their death in iniquity, but all die.
Mitch SMith 50+
I will come into this topic at another angle. I hope it has cogence to your purpose!
This is in relation to the talk by Jonathan Haidt.
In my second marriage breakdown, the thing began with the betrayal of who I realy was in conflict to who my wife thought I was.
The impact of that on her was devastating .. this was not so much me, as who she insisted I was. That realisation was so powerful that she actually stopped breathing.
COnfronted with someone I loved who had given up the will to live, I applied mouth to mouth to get air into her lungs - her lips were blue .. she was anoxic, but her pulse, although weak was present.
My efforts were in vane, sh ewould not respond, so I reached deep within my existence and found the path - I took her by the ankles and pulled her life back into her body. In doing that she took in a deep gasp of breath and found th will to live again.
I sat in a corner of the room listennign to her breathe and had in my mind an immage of Christ looking at me sternly .. that I had crossed the line. But .. indeed the power is there.
But I could care less about Christ - my love had saved one I loved at my expense - I knew that instantly, and I accept whatever comes of it. And if I go to hell for that, well .. Satan will have his time cut-out.
There is none of this nice walking up stairs, there is none of this tunnel of light, that is all silly delusional evidence of a brain shutting-down.
LAter, i suffered a fribulation - my brain faded to black and I was clinically dead for 5 minutes. While I was dead, there was nothing absolutely nothing, no holy choires, no out of body delusions, just inevitable .. nothing.
My heart stopped fribulating at some point, and I came to consciousness. My mind was destroyed - all the funcions were in dissaray and nothing fit - it was like a jigsaw puzzle scattered in a disconnected heap.
My tongue rolled into a tube and I made a primall mooing sound - and it was around this sound I reassembled
Mitch SMith 50+
(Please forgive the long preamble, it gives context to my comment):
Since joining the TED community, I have been spurred into new avenues of investigation on this very issue.
By viewing almost every TED talk dated 2 years ago till to now, I have been able to gain a gestalt view that has opened my horizons considerably.
My focus has been on the nature of the human brain coupled with the topological underpin of self organising systems such as neural nets. TED talks delivered by neuro scientists coupled with behavioural psychologists and philosophers have revealed to me a general map of space/metaspace that may, at least, show us where to look. Certainly, engaging with the TED conversation community has helped me refine this view.
I have found that humanity posesses several levels of perception, the first is bound to the senses, the second is bound to communication, and more levels ascend with the complex result of percieving the higher levels of perception in others. I have identified that each ascending layer of perception becomes more and more noisy and inacurate - i.e. diverges from absolute reality AKA: Truth.
I have also identified the inherent noise reduction process represented by empathy.
So far, it is my opinion that "evil" resides in involution. This seems to work at a few levels:
Firstly, the involution of percieving the high levels of perception in others - percieving their beliefs and the affects of those beliefs in the agency afforded by those beliefs. This is best represented by mass media and seems exactly mapped to the old concept "lucifer" the bringer of "light" - in other words, lies and manipulations.
Secondly is the involution where man became the farmer of men. The enslaver.
Here is where evil resides.
(more if asked).
Josh S
Simple greed. We are animals too. What factor affects every single organism alive? - survival of the fittest. Greed is the same as survival of the fittest. Those who are greedy and have the most are the fittest. And a desire to be at the top drives greed. Basic human nature causes greed which in turn causes evil.
Mitch SMith 50+
I think that's where it starts, but it really isn't that simple.
Western culture has been carefully averted from Darwin's findings on evolutionary selection. THe survival of the fittest only applies to non-social animals. The social animal is selected on the fitnes of the community.
In that light, the competition will extend to inter-tribal competitions, but will preclude competition between the members of the tribe. Intercene competition is the dynamic of "divide and conquer". It serves to weaken the tribe and make it vulnerable to tribes that act in unity.
The promotion of this warped Darwinism in western culture seems more a cynical attempt to mollify political opposition to personal agendas antithetical to the wellbeing of the culture and the genome. To the best of my perception, this is a ploy engaged in by psychologically dammaged individuals who need dissunity to justify their sickness and draw all power to themselves - apart from the genome. If they succeed in subtracting the basic unity of tribal selection, they wil produce a species incapable of surviving inter-species competition.
Just think - would you go out hunting with a competitor at your side? YOu would never be able to trust him.
Josh S
I am not speaking the message of a disjointed psychologically damaged individual but the truth of the world we live in. I challenge you to give me a single example in which darwinsistic evolution is not seen in organisms. It is nature, it is the beast, it is the name of the game; even though it is hard to accept.
Mitch SMith 50+
THis is the common observation, yes. But the key factor is the development of language.
The selective factor is the enlargement of the perceptive field. This is accomplished through empathy. YOu will find that communities defined by communication wil resolve internal conflict via ritualistic means - no genes are de-selected. In all the species you have mentioned there is only rudimentary communication, their capacity for empathy is not developed.
It is true that certain competition will remain, but it takes a secondary role behind the selective preference for the enlarged perceptive field afforded by commmunication.
It is, to my understanding, just as mistaken to claim total empathy as it is to claim total competition. But in the human species, the emphasis is necessarily on empathy.
I beleive you have swallowed a lie. Don't worry, the propaganda machines have been hard at it for a long while now.
If you read Darwin, you will see that he includes more than simple selective processes. The media seems to have forgotten it ;)
Don Wesley 50+
Feyisayo Anjorin 50+
The human mind is like a battlefield of thoughts; our perceptions are a product of diverse influences. We would make mistakes. We dont always make the right choices; its our state. We are human.
But sometimes we resign,and we cling to our failings and inadequacies. As if we should not strive to love our neighbours as ourselves.
An individual may not like certain things about himself or herself, but such would still wish himself or herself goodluck or better fortunes. We might not like the other choices that are contrary to ours; yet we should not wish pain and distress on anyone.
Our choices could go wrong. The planet has its own surprises: floods, earthquakes, volcanoes and tsunamis.
There would be pain. But will humanity unite and remain hopeful? Or, will humanity express bitterness, and become vengeful? Will humanity increase the misery?
Eberhard Schmitz
Don Wesley 50+
Eberhard Schmitz
Stewart Gault 30+
Don Wesley 50+
Gerald O'brian 50+
Don Wesley 50+
Return to see where we are going.
Don
Don Wesley 50+
I just notice in another conversation you did mention the word Evil.
"You must purge the evil from among you."
Would you tell us your story!
Don
Gerald O'brian 50+
My story? What part of it, and who cares?
Don Wesley 50+
The quote was deuteronomy 22 : 20
I asked you how you felt about my topic and I felt your response was just to challenge, rather than explain. Do you ever reveal who you are?
Symbolically, I asked my butler, to show you the exit door.
I would love to know the real you.
Don