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Read the proposal behind 'The Venus Project' and give critical feedback!
I need some people to please read, in its entirety, and gain a full grasp on, the outlined perspective drawn out by Jacque Fresco in 'The Venus Project'. I am looking for some critical feedback on it. I have not been able to find many true flaws in it, but I know that does not mean it is undoubtably devoid of any. I am just curious to get a new perspective on it, if not at least spread its message.
link: http://www.thevenusproject.com/
Jim Moonan 30+
What I like so far after looking at the VP materials is not it's actual vision/plan to solve our world's most daunting, pressing problems, but just the very fact that it IS putting forth a vision for the future.
Agree with ithe VP vision or not, pick it apart if you want, but what I think the world desperately needs at this particular point is something of a glimpse into a future where these problems that so affect all of us are answered with solutions. It may not be the final resolution to the epochal changes that lie ahead, but at least it is a start. Bravo Venus Project!
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Jim Moonan 30+
Their attention to detail.... This is not just a vision, this appears to be a growing group's life's commitment - they've found something bigger than themselves.
Their desire to rid the world of such things as racism, poverty, hunger, etc.
Their holistic-style approach to the world....
Their call for the best and the brightest in all fields to join.
The fact that it is not faith-based.
Jim Moonan 30+
Tony Sanchez
As for the Zeitgeist films, be assured that they are meticulously made and do not make an amalgam between money and currency at all. There have been many articles(mostly inarticulate amateur blogs) trying to point out the "Hoax" or "Debunking" the films and its associated movement. I have read carefully through many of those, and so far I have not find a single one that didn't hide some sort of grudge, either religious, political, patriotic or call it what you will.
Regarding the Zeitgeist films and the interpretation I made of them, I do support the TZM as its road seems to allow the grass to grow back. Perhaps it doesn't have all the answers but better take a detour towards the right path than carry on on the wrong one.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
criticisms of the zeitgeist movies can not be rejected on the basis of any prejudice of the authors. only on the facts they presented. if you never encountered a debunking site with hard facts, i assume you don't know google.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Seriously..Jacques lays out all these high global values that are widely shared and his plan to raise cosbciousness on these important issues is to raise money to build a theme park and demo city to showcasehi sown without protfolio & credentials designs and to make a film????.. all ttansparaently self promtional and just plain ridiculous.
By the way, all here , is you have not done so already, go toour TED Common Ground survey and vote at www.goo.gl/mod/0073
Kait, I am always glad to see anyone take up an interest in global issues. There have been a lot of truly visonary, truly brilliant people working onvariou saspects of this this for decade..look at Bucminster's Fuller's work, look at Paolo Soleri's work, look to theGolbal Oneness Project..look to ideas and peiplae that really can and will make adifference.
Jim Moonan 30+
Jim Moonan 30+
And plan to look at the VP in more detail because it looks to have all the earmarks of an idea borne by visionaries and nothing - not facts, not data, not philosophy, not reality - nothing turns me on more than visionary thinking.
Thanks for this Kait.
Looking forward to learning more about possible solutions to what I think are epochal events taking place on our planet.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Romualdo Juarez
"Who will secure resources? Who will do jobs that robots can't do? How will you get people to learn things?"
Yet another one, but in this one i'd like to point out the notion that people thoughout history have never done anything that wasn't motivated by financial gain as if the adquisition of property was a divine mission of man, an end by itself. A prime example of a capitalist mindset. All the while, adquisition is necessarily based on production, wich is only a means of the reproduction of life.
Finally, as a response to op. There are no real flaws in the logic of VP, as there are no flaws or legitimate criticism about the principles of Historic Materialism. That is why it took a huge propaganda machine to fight the ideas off, and i suspect this propaganda, and the social pressures it ensues are the reason VP disguises itself as something different from communism.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
finally, there are no flaws in the logic of v.p., as it is one big utter nonsense. it hardly classifies as a concept or a theory. it is just a collection of phrases designed to be attractive to an idealist but economically ignorant audience.
Romualdo Juarez
Responses:
To Philip Crume:
"The core principle of socialism is the expansion of the "public commons" into private ownership. The Venus Project IS socialism. The only thing that distinguishes it from communism is that it isn't advocating the dictatorship of the proletariat."
The core principle of socialism is the abolition of private ownership and not the expansion of anything into private ownership, Historic Materialism is, as every other complete and worthy vision of the world, self-sealing and unfalsifiable from any other vision of the world, which, as i see by the way you are using the concept of proletariat, what i believe you are doing.
"Raise the money needed to buy a very large plot of land and create your own money-less experimental society."
Another example of what i stated above.
"I'd be most interested in how you deal with incentive motives."
Now this has been a mayor subject in criticism to the VP. The answer i find to it is: There is no "incentive" as such in a capitalist society. The adquisition of money cannot be seen solely as a motivation to labor, it is currently, the means of the reproduction of life for the individual of a capitalist society and as such it a NECESSITY. From this one could say that capitalism doesn't operate by incentive, but through coercion. Nice world ain't it?
Krisztián Pintér 200+
the failure of socialism is because of central planning. all other things, like violent nature, limiting of freedom and such are just secondary problems, and they follow from the central planning idea. central planning is doomed to fail.
coercion by definition requires conscious intent. there is no such thing as natural coercion. necessities are not coercions. it is meaningless to say that the necessity to eat and reproduce is coercion.
Colby McGrevey
Okay...they are interesting ideas, but there are so many flaws with this idea...
1) The VP is an attempt to bring nations together to stop war, poverty etc. Is that not what the UN was founded for? Look at its great progress!
2) In one of the videos on the website Jaque Fresco said that there has "never been a democracy". That is absurd.
3) He kept on talking about how we are told we are free and that we feel like we are free, but not really free. I am certain that I can do whatever I want with the exception of doing something like murdering someone or being free to play the violin well (even though I have never picked one up).
4) Jaque said that "Every politician throughout all of the earth's history has been or is ignorant." You have to think really highly of yourself to say something lke that.
5) On the VP website it said that "The U.S. Department of Agriculture, whise function is presumed to be conducting research into ways of achieving higher crop yields per acre, actually pay farers not to produce at full capacity." Is any one aware of crop rotation?
6) If there is this central computer that controls all facets of life, who produces the computer parts for it when it breaks down? It seems to me whoever is in charge of programming and giving maintanence to that central computer then are they not in charge?
I am running out of characters. I am going to continue to look throught the information. Please let me hear your thoughts.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
I love hi splan for getting started
raise money to
make a film
build a model city of his wacky designs ( I guess he didn't follow whta fared of Le Corbuisers hi-rise vision)
build a theme park
yeah//a brilliant start on how to save humanity.
just wacky .
Ernest Skrzypczyk
Krisztián Pintér 200+
2, if there was no intel vs amd, the incredible progress in the CPU market wouldn't have happened.
3, chernobyl was an INES 7 event, kyshtym disaster in mayak was INES 6. fukushima is INES 5.
Ernest Skrzypczyk
2. If there were none consumers there wouldn't have been any progress and it should have, even in that theoretical situation. It was only an example.
3. Yes (Fukushima until now,hopefully it doesn't get any worse). At least one accident in Mayak wasn't given a score at all. I did not refer to these scales only, but also to the fact that some people are still there. Also do not forget it is in Russia.
What would you see as problems of a possible transition to VP Krisztián?
Krisztián Pintér 200+
2. it was a wrong example. just like the antivirus. competition leads to progress.
3. ah, so there are events kept secret, but you still know about them reliably, and talk about them as facts? plus you demand people accept it too. sorry, [citation needed].
Ernest Skrzypczyk
Krisztián Pintér 200+
competition can not lead to corruption. except of course if there is a power, like government. governments are prone to corruption.
you are discrediting yourself if you cite rumored, unknown, unsure subjects as facts. you can say that you think so. side note: we are 20 years after the collapse of the soviet union, and many signs of such accidents must have been preserved. we know a lot about chernobyl as well, even if it also happened in the soviet union. if you have any hard information, your responsibility for mankind is to go to wikipedia, and extend the article. maybe reading the article will be enough though.
Ernest Skrzypczyk
FYI if I read something that is uncommon I do research at the first place. The first source at Wikipedia was one of materials I was referring to, still Wikipedia is not a scientific resource per se (I hope it will be soon),because anyone can write anything in it. I wanted to encourage making this research and spreading this information. We probably wouldn't know anything about Chernobyl if it did not affect Europe directly. Also I would never underestimate people who barely consider crimes against humanity an incident. I hope very much you were referring to my Mayak statement, not Katyn. I'm unwilling to do homework for others.I mean this inarespectfulway
Ernest Skrzypczyk
Imagine you have a business that served you well for generations. Your family is wealthy and powerful. You know mostly the good side of life as one would say today (personally I would disagree). So you are all set to just enjoy life. Now there comes someone and tells you you need to change and give it all up for a better place for everyone. You would probably wouldn't do that, mostly because you've been taught otherwise. Again look at the north Africa, Libya especially. Gaddafi and his friends have a way of life only very few have - plus he has power - military power.He will not give it up so easily. That not enough, if there would be a strong movement in world for a change, where weapons would be placed in museums, people like Gaddafi could see their chance to gain power and control. That is my biggest problem. How do you convince people, who are mostly incapable of understanding VP and a society based on resources, not to harm other for personal gain? Look at today governments: nothing but stocked up lies on lies - they lie so much, until they believe it themselves. Todays money making businesses are: weapons and ammo (war), drugs (legal and illegal), human trafficking (slavery), prostitution (in connection with the former), oil/rare resources (every product needs oil for production,transport and extinction) and money (laundering). It seems as it pays more off to be a criminal and have "good friends" than live with values most of share (honesty, justice, equality etc.). We created and accepted a system that promotes and motivates us to harm ourselves. Basically you are incapable of living in today world without money. There is no freedom in that sense. If you have luck, you may pursue your dreams, have a education. If not, you work your whole life to pay a debt.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
2, gaddafi didn't have power because he is wealthy. he became wealthy because he as power.
3, i don't have statistics, but i'm quite sure poor people are much more against change than rich people. rich are more risk taking, and less dependent on material things.
4, those you listed are not the top money making businesses. the biggest money making business is probably food, retail and informatics (walmart, mcdonalds and microsoft). those you mentioned are the most concentrated businesses, where few companies own the entire market, mostly due to government intervention.
5, you can live without money on the same level as people lived before inventing money. you can be a hunter gatherer in africa. you can be a self sustaining farmer. obviously, no healthcare, no retirement benefits, lack of food, no clear water, no electricity, etc. money means exchange. exchange is human.
Ernest Skrzypczyk
2. He used his people under the blanket of change for better, like many did
3. That might be true in some situation, but I'm very sure mostly it's the opposite way. The dependencies on material things aren't there in VP (no scarcity, at least for the important goods)
4. I'm not talking about "probably", I'm talking about our situation. You think about food as a moneymaker? Food costs to produce (in some countries there go 4 calories of energy for 1 calorie of food - energy inefficiency), but this can be very cheap. And there are many consumers.Still the most important thing is profit.And that one cannot be beat by drugs for example. Amphetamine - synthetic stimulant, depending on situation production cost for 1g is about 40-60€. Profits are massive, because street drug has only 5-10% of the actual drug in it, giving a 10-20x profit.You can still cut production costs. Consumers are there
By weapons and ammo I don't mean only those things. Other thing: do you believe it is okay that granted by the economy system people who work in china are much less paid/compensated than those in EU? 1 hour of the same work should be worth the same, that's equality. Economy is a science about producing something with the most efficient use of resources, not about shifting those values of human labor and others. No matter where you live,your skin color, religion, whatever. This is not given by the monetary system.
5. Yes but not in a system that is so massively based on monetary system. Money means power (sadly,actually it's only a symbol). I can buy a human life today or death if you will. Is that in any way okay? I doubt it. VP isn't about a retirement benefit. The time you're in it you're retired. It is about exchange of more important things than some symbol for debt. Watch "Let's make money", "We Feed The World" and ev. Zeitgeist 1.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
2. so as the v.p.
3. we agree that in the proposed system, there is no risk taking, nor risk avoiding. it is total centralization of all decisions that count
4. i'm talking about the sitaution too. except i admit that i don't have data, just like you don't.
4b. people are paid according to the produced value, not effort. that is good. we need to increase working capital.
5. "based on monetary system" has no meaning. express yourself clearly. money does not mean power, it means property claim. and in this system, you do can start a farm and feed yourself. why you say you can't?
Ernest Skrzypczyk
Krisztián Pintér 200+
extravagant is a point of view. having two pair of shoes is extravagant in the eye of a worker of the 1900's. ahead by a few years, extravagant?
capitalism is based on independent decision centers: owners of capital. the money is a tool that conveys information for them. v.p. seeks to abolish that system, and replace with planning. who will do the planning? an agency i suppose. that is central planning. eliminates the competition of different ideas.
yes, bank managers are paid proportionally to the value they create. except when they commit crimes, or use the money confiscated by the central planner (that is, state budget). lawfully operating bankers conduct the flow of capital, like an orchestra conductor. they decide how to use our capital to the best effect.
working capital is machines, tools, intermediate materials and so on. these are created by saving, and smart use of the excess resources and goods.
in a free market capitalism, capital is never stalled. every piece of machinery, building or tool will be purchased and used for some reason. except when our "wise" government builds roadblocks.
v.p. uses people through manipulation. it is an ideology that is carefully constructed to resonate people's beliefs, misconceptions, instincts, emotions. i'm not sure it is an intentional scam. it is possible that the founder also under the influence of those things i've listed. but it does not change the result: v.p. uses people to launch itself into power.
Ernest Skrzypczyk
Krisztián Pintér 200+
hm. decision making is hijacked by people who are good in convincing the masses? that's my point exactly! v.p. is one of such attempts. i see no difference between the current establishment and the wannabe establishments.
a supercomputer that gives advices, i'm ok with that, as long as i'm not in any way forced to comply. but i must warn you, this attempt is in vain, as mises and hayek pointed out long long time ago. the knowledge is scattered, and we need trial and error.
putting price tags on everything is inevitable. all we can do is to raise the price of precious things high enough. all other approaches are fairy tales. our possibilities are limited. the decision is not whether we want to save a life, but whether we want to save this life or that life. would we save one man or we want to give a million children a little more chance to survive, for example by raising the life standards of a poor country? life is a matter of money. there is a price tag attached.
i admit, i can't give you evidence that v.p. aspires to power. i'm just oversensitve to movements that tries to control people's conduct. i see how similar socialism and v.p. is. and i don't want any more socialism, i had enough.
Ernest Skrzypczyk
Ernest Skrzypczyk
Krisztián Pintér 200+
2. ancient greeks knew that the earth is a sphere. they even measured its diameter quite accurately. we don't even know who discovered it. this knowledge seems to be older than written history.
Sabin Muntean 30+
Ok, common heritage for the good of all leaving healthier, safer, better lives together in peace and harmony.
Sounds like a great idea, but I couldn't find one idea on how to achieve this common heritage.
Plus, I can't help but feel that this would in the end become as a big a failure as communism. By this I mean that even if you achieve this "common heritage of resources" you still need people to manage them, to make the decisions, you can't have a direct democracy with billions of people that actually works. So who can say that the new enlightened leaders would abstain from abusing their power?
Wayne Busby 30+
Have you for instance got any suggestions?
Sabin Muntean 30+
And just like politics today is often doing a great job at abusing power and using money for other purposes than the intended ones, so could and probably would a future leadership do with resources.
The problem for me lies not only in creating this near-utopia - which would in itself be a huge challenge - but also in sustaining it.
Drew Sowersby
No other animal made it beyond the community level. Will we fulfill the requirements to advance to the final level, the One Organism? Unfortunately, we will first have to endure the pain of consolidation before our path to sustainability can be reached.
Wayne Busby 30+
Drew Sowersby
My strong feeling is that they perceive a global collapse and are preemptively providing intelligible alternatives...ideas with technical merit (guided by the laws of nature). Indeed, they are predicting, like many others, the formation of a fully functional One Organism. This is the emergence of a unified system of all human transaction. Here is the basic logic. Levels of integration emerge in highly unpredictable ways through the progressive process of complexification known as evolution. Each level represents a stable structure. The biological progression is as follows. atom---molecule--supramolecule--macromolecule--organelle--cell--tissue--organ--system--animal (human)--family--tribe--village/community--town--city--county--state--nation--??????
Each step along this path of 18 levels (there are many intermediates) is more complex, robust, and stable. Each level includes all the other levels and requires MORE ENERGY to exist. Each level arose in a very unpredictable way. My guess is that VP is trying to guide, through collective intelligence and consciousness, the emergence of the multi-nation whole. Everyone deserves to have his or her vision...right? Mine, Augmata Hive, is coincidently complementary to the Venus Project..( I have technical issues with their work, but agree with over 95% with their mission)
Detailed explanation here: http://www.emrgnc.com.au/tenets.htm
Philip Crume
In the window where people put stuff in, if too many people add things to the storehouse that no one wants, then the stuff they make will pile up on the shelves and fill the warehouse with junk. If people don't add enough stuff that others want, then there will be conflict over the few things that are available.
In the window where people take stuff out, it'll be easy for people to take things that there are a lot of (the storehouse will practically be giving them away). If there aren't a lot of things, then there will be long lines that form.
In the ideal storehouse world, what you put in will be connected with what you're allowed to take out; and there would be some way to link what you put in with how much is already in the storehouse (how much others want).
The storehouse is symbolic of supply and demand, and what links them together is money. Price isn't about the inherent value of the items on the shelves in the storehouse, but how much is available and how much people are demanding it.
In "TZM" world, the storehouse is an automated factory where people can always take things out but never have to put things back in. People stop contributing to the economy, and everyone has to accept, good or bad, whatever comes out. Worst of all people stop looking for ways help each other.
Keep in mind that in the free market system, what you are allowed to take out of that storehouse is limited by what you put in that other people want. So your success depends on your ability to identify what others want and give it to them. TZM's greatest weakness is that it offers no incentives to do that.
Kait Kenel
From a personal perspective, I truly do believe that if we were to our focus attention on every human being having the essentials for life (water, food, shelter, clothing) then we possibly would have enough resources to support it (especially through the use of greener energies). Yes it is an absolute to say that our current lifestyles of the west and the growing resource-demanding lifestyles of developing areas would have to change. I guess my concern is, can we make these changes while still operating under the same systems of monetary reward. It appears to me we can not, but I am truly seeking any way that it may be possible, or a change that may be successful outside of it...
Krisztián Pintér 200+
can you elaborate what does this phrase mean?
Colby McGrevey
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
It is through the traditionalized acceptance of money (in the respect to the monetary system) that it is seen to be a good system, however when one person has more money someone else HAS to have less. That is why money is primitive, everyone deserves the same as long as they are being an equal in society.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Revett Eldred 10+
"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs." Where have I heard that before? Did it work out? Hmmm...
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
You should read space-time theory, metaphysics essays, and the psychology of emotions. These ideas are ageless, they can be updated but never fully replaced. So, if you are going to give out materials know first someone actually wants them.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
let me bet that i know more about space-time than you. in case it is the theory of relativity kinda space-time.
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
And you're wrong, the information is coming from me, I formed them from various ideas to create them. The facts of this topic in our micro-debate are what philosophy is about, it is open-ended. There is no set definition of philosophy, therefore there is no set way to create information.
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Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
So yes I make my principles but I respond to them as still being open-ended because i recognize my ignorance. Indeed I feel everyone should recognize their ignorance because that is a strength as well as an understanding of weakness.
Also Colby i rather keep arguing on this thread than any other, because it will keep it active, otherwise i would have never said anything, VP is an excellent alternative incite on how to work the world, conflicting different views is what progresses people, agreeing to disagree does not.
Your mention of "attacking" is somewhat correct but again so what? I do not care who reads this, I have seen far more educated people argue based on the straw man entirely.
Clearly I can now argue with you what is rational and logical, and by doing so we both gain the others view point and be better prepared for future debates. Criticism is the greatest thing when it comes to philosophy, please do not under mind a good argument, because you do not have to read nor care for it.
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Being a future educator I have read how the original unions for teachers HAD to start or else teachers could be treated in anyway the government wanted. Indeed when the original individuals who promoted the unions were asked the following "Have you ever participated in a union or have been a part of the communist party" as if one and the other had something to do with each other. STOP THINKING IN ELITIST VOCABULARY AND UNDERSTANDINGS. The world is much more broad than government ideals of how to organize people, we should be worried about what matters in parallel with what exist. What matters is everyone on this earth doesn't die from hunger and has a place to sleep. What exist are obese people dying from over eating, the most entertained period of time in the world, are just some of the problems.
Yeah I want people treated equal because it is now more than ever before POSSIBLE to do, but is prevented by ideologies and people who reinforce those ideologies with more ideologies. What matters comes first, and everything else second.
Love first, pleasure second.
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Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
But to end this petty stuff publicly please e-mail me from my profile.
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Because you gave me the ammunition of this statement. "What is wrong with having EVERYBODY do the judging, which is how it is currently done in our democratic capitalist system?" Is a load of for a lack of a better word, crap. I have spoken to politicians that claim our government is ran basically under free enterprise. That in politics if you want to see who is running the show you have to follow the money. THAT IS NOT FREEDOM. look at Wisconsin, it isn't the state versus the government it is the state versus a corporation. Through lobbyism total control over this nation has happened without the majorities consent, that is not a good system, it has cause the death of millions in the past ten years because of resources.
http://video.godlikeproductions.com/video/Economic_Hitmen?id=6dd26c4f7d621adec1d
http://dailycollegian.com/2011/02/23/protests-in-puerto-rico-not-reflective-of-u-s-democracy/
http://kochbrothersexposed.com/
http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=6286
http://www.fastcompany.com/1580712/infographic-of-the-day-how-the-global-food-market-starves-the-poor
The words that are defined as such does not mean they are being performed and practiced as such. The constitution of this country is tossed aside time after time while the rich become more rich and the poor become more poor.
VP stands for these injustices to be ended on a global basis, everyone deserves the same no matter what, as long as they are willing to be on the same level as everyone else.
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Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
http://bankofamericasuck.com/03/26/powerful-message-from-former-c-i-a-agent-to-every-bloggerhacker-and-americans
There is no left or right. Life is an arrow. One dimension (Up, down, left, right) ideals are not enough to make a real genuine idea. You need to consider everything that is involved with everything you do, this is how you become aware of what really does work and doesn't.
My biggest issue is the result of ideologies. If ideas do not work you are supposed to change them, not cover them up.
Revett, I would love to continue this argument, but in private. E-mail me off of my page. I can imagine reading my writing is getting annoying for everyone and this thread.
Stephen Brink
Consider just this one statement on the site:
'At present, we have enough material resources to provide a very high standard of living for all of Earth's inhabitants'
This is unfortunately not the case. The earths resources are finite. As affluent people we consume far more resources than poor people with a low standard of living.
You may argue here what is the definition of a 'very high standard of living'. If its what most reasonably affluent middle class people aspire to then the burden on the earth's resources if EVERYONE lived like this would not be sustainable.
Very poor people have a very small overall carbon footprint, or environmental impact. As the proportion of, for example, china's growing population becomes increasingly affluent, they demand more resources- they want nice food, usually eat more meat, drive cars, live in resource consuming houses etc.
I dont wish to be negative , but just realistic.
I think a better future is possible, i just dont think this is it.
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
It lacks the true reason behind the project's idea.
And any future progression from today's life styles and "progress" will make us vulnerable to the appending global disasters, and make us only more separated as time goes on. Indeed I believe any person can learn, work, sacrifice, and come together. What prevents this are ideologies and the best idea is the one acceptable to change otherwise it is narrow-minded and self fulfilling. Watch the zeitgeist moving forward.
SANTHIP KANHOLY
- every body gets food
- every body gets to do their own thing
- Eco - friendly
But my criticisms would be below :
- Who decides the resources to be allocated and how much ?
- If there is a centralized authority who determines this, then I am not comfortable with such an aspect, which has no element of democracy in it.
- It calls for a technological dependency, which makes us more dependent on technology, which may not be the ultimate technology
- It is completely based on material technology. I do not see any kind of "spiritual" resource persay in the project. This is a big flaw in my opinion. To take care of this limitatiion calls for ultimate knowledge in spirituality / faith/ consciousness, which the venus project doesn't seem to have. It's a big thing for me personally :)
Other flaws related to the zeitgiest movie are
- the first movie has the "astro-theology" version completely wrong. There is no similarity between the story of Krishna and Jesus. Just read about Krishan's mythology and try to fit a cross in there ;-)
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
- There is no authority, people are the authority, if someone is still able to find meaning in killing while the world is united the community would take care of him/her not a police force.
- ultimate technology? only thing technology should be used for is to make our lives better, after that anything with technology is extra.
- humanitarians spirituality comes from just being with people and sharing ideas and working in harmony. Conscience and awareness comes with the enlightenment of reality. Faith is a virtue that involves defending an idea, no idea is worth defending wholeheartedly then it becomes an ideology, the only faith one should have is in themself to do whatever they put their mind to doing. Life is beautiful once you realize how unique everyone is and isn't different.
Yeah, there is no difference, except they lead people around had followers and believers and ultimately had people carry down their name through time, no similarities?
SANTHIP KANHOLY
- That would be a good thing to see. People being involved in their governance. That is callling for a very high level of transparency at every level. Who did what / where is this money going in this organization etc. You have one mole, the system could come down.
- Question then would be , what would be the purpose of life ? especially for those who are involved with the venus project ? The video of venus project showed robotic trains / vehicles. How does one think these will be coming forth ? It is calling for industries to be in place. Even power industry. Venus project is a high end technological challenge.
- I am okay with a humanitarian principles. The question is would all in the present communities be okay with humanitarian principles , and be willing to put their faith and other issues aside for the sake of such a community ? The project is asking for an enlightened population. The project won't survive without the humanitarian idealogy that would be at the core. Honestly, realistically looking at it, I do not see that happening unless we are threatened with extinction.
I don't want Venus project to end up being another idealogy/faith that has to be defended. I would like to see it evolve into something significant that can change our lives for the better.
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Indeed the only flaw with the project is it is too far ahead of its time to be done. Look at the followers on the website it is under 2 million. Granted a good start but there are over 7 billion people in the world. This idea is new still and needs to be spread more.
Stephen Brink
Philip Crume
The VP is an extreme form of socialism not very different than its 20th century counterparts. Citing the number of followers on the website is an ad populum appeal, and is not a valid point. This idea doesn't need to be spread more, it needs to be studied and tested on a small scale before public dissemination. Failing to provide a superior alternative, it needs to be rejected.
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
Our current system has allowed a small percentage of people to take the majority of wealth, not because they are smarter or wiser than anyone else but because they had the opportunity and system where a group of people can take away from millions is not a system I want to be a part of let alone consider good in anyway.
VP needs the influence of humanitarianism, environmentalism, futurism, and transhumanism to succeed. As you said Philip people are entirely to worried about what they see to worried about what they do not. The current system is enabler of stupidity. Education works in an academic standard for most countries a system of education that does not influence creativity, personal reflection, and group values. Philosophy is a subject children are the best at because we are naturally curious in nature as human beings, what has made us stupid is accepting the environment as good enough and that comes from our education, parents teachers, and peers. If 2 of those 3 would have told any child growing up, never stop asking, always consider the possibility of being wrong and you will be happy in life without material.
I may be talking of emotional logic but that is because i know a lot of disturbing statistics I can not unlearn. While people die of obesity others die of hunger, and while those obese people can learn about health, compassion, and responsibility there are those who have no chance of such.
Granted there is no such thing as perfect, but the fact VP is an alternative should be worried about more than if it will work, because right now a lot of places are not working. you cannot compare VP to socialism because they revolve around economy (money) this revolves around the safety of the human race
Krisztián Pintér 200+
i give you a homework which you either do or not do. but i alleviate my responsibility, i've warned you.
homework is two books:
Ludwig von Mises - Human Action
Ludwig von Mises - Theory and History
you can replace the first one with some more basic introductory material to austrian economics, just because it will be used as a basis in the second book.
Wayne Busby 30+
Please continue to "Shoot for the stars because those who aim for mediocrity usually fall short."
You are the youth who are inheriting this mess and if you don't nurture a constructive stance you will all loose.
Keep your eyes open, stay humble and don't get brainwashed.
I am happy to know you.
Philip Crume
What I meant before about studying it on a small scale is that if you think you can do better than free market capitalism, then go for it. Raise the money needed to buy a very large plot of land and create your own money-less experimental society. Go ahead and build those magical robots that build everything and central computers that manage everything. But be honest about it and let the people outside see any failures that arise. I'd be most interested in how you deal with incentive motives. Who will secure resources? Who will do jobs that robots can't do? How will you get people to learn things?
Since the first generation was educated, trained, and had their skills developed in a different economic system, the scoreboard really doesn't begin until the new generation that has only known their new society. It would be those and their children that should be studied.
Wayne Busby 30+
"One does not become safer by surrendering the capacity to ensure one's own safety to something else.'
When the first two persons who began any culture began to walk together there was even then a surrendering of capacity to ensure one's own safety to something else. These are those earliest rules of engagement and conduct which have evolved through ongoing experience and assimilated wisdom into Sustainable Laws. It is part of what makes us accountable to one-another.
"Citing the number of followers on the website is an ad populum appeal, and is not a valid point. This idea doesn't need to be spread more, it needs to be studied and tested on a small scale before public dissemination."
If I correctly understand Nicolas' point; 2 million is a good start, but if more people see and talk about it (kind of like what is happening here on Ted), the more effective an approach to the idea may come to light.
"Trust the people. Give them choices."
Philip Crume
Krisztián Pintér 200+
http://www.ted.com/conversations/187/how_can_we_humans_achieve.html
however, you stated that you want us to "read, in its entirety, and gain a full grasp on, the outlined perspective drawn". i can't promise you that, because the venus website is overly verbose and seriously lacks any concrete information. i can't spend more than 5 minutes reading it before my head goes numb. so i'm not able to participate in this conversation, unless you release that "entry barrier".
Kait Kenel
By all means, tell me what your preconceived objections are!
Also, another avenue to explain this viewpoint that may be less mind-numbing is the movie series "Zeitgeist". Give it a watch if you can.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
since i was not able to found such a brief material, i have to pick some crazy ideas instead, which made me not read more.
1. what they say about money and profit is totally bogus. money is just a smart tool, and can not possibly be the cause of anything. money represents resources, human and natural. profit is achieved when your way of production creates more value than other ways of production using the same total amount of resources. it is that simple.
2. they use the word "scarcity" in different meanings. economic scarcity can not be theoretically eliminated. common sense scarcity is eliminated on daily basis today, it is not a real problem in the western world.
3. the (in)famous zeitgeist movie. debunked a million times, both three parts are shameful pieces of dishonest propaganda.
i'm willing to comment on other things they come up with, as soon as someone summarizes it to me in a meaningful, brief form. very much unlike this:
"Evolving from money-based, nationalistic economies to a resource-based world economy."
which is a serious case of bs. our economy is not money based. resource based is just a buzz word with no definition whatsoever. this sentence is meaningless.
Nicholas Lukowiak 50+
2. It may not be a problem to most, but it is still a problem, and the fact it isn't a concern of everyone's to feed the world shows how spoiled a lot of people really are.
3. One link that debunks anything beside the first part of movie of the first film, post it. And even if it was propaganda, the ultimate message is for people to come together in harmony and not listen to governments that feed us lies. Oh dam I forgot about how in America disney used donald duck to sell war bonds during world war II. shameless really?
you should watch the movies with an open mind and if anything does not seem right you have the ability to do your own research. oh and at least in my history class when i heard the word economy it was referencing to money, unless my education really sucks that bad. OF course economies today are based on money, what else could they be based on? Futurist are hard to understand without the ideas of human well being as number one priority always, nothing else matters except people. Not cars, not being famous, nothing is more important than people to futurist, because in 100 years no one will know who you are but you will hopefully have great great etc grand kids in the future anyways living and enjoying the same things you do now. I guess that is greedy thinking.
Stephen Brink
Krisztián Pintér 200+
lack of food, shelter and clothing is a problem in a lot of places. because they have undeveloped economies. the best way to develop economies is economic freedom for the people. the venus project is against that freedom.
the ultimate message can be whatever, if it is presented through misrepresentation of facts and boldface lies. btw i watched the movie with open mind. i don't know too much about christianity, not to mention earlier religions. so i was like, wow, that's a game changer. then i looked up facts, and was greatly disappointed that most of the "facts" there are complete fabrications. the second part was painful to watch after i was already aware of 9/11 denialism and read a lot of debunking. googl "911 conspiracy" for a truckload of it. and the last part is a complex part, i didn't really understand back then, but a few factual errors, and the other two parts made me suspicious. since then i learned some economics, i found out that the makers of the movie had the same problems with understanding the economy as i had. except they didn't take a course, but made a movie instead. wrong move. i was open minded yesterday. today i'm angry.
Christophe Cop 500+
What I do know is that there is a lot skepticism
http://conspiracyscience.com/forums/topic/zeitgeist-debunked-and-the-venus-project-debunked
so try and surf Google with search terms "debunk" or "skeptic" attached.
Kait Kenel
Christophe Cop 500+
To be honest (and this is not a valid argument, I know)
I saw the movies a few years ago, and had some critiques back then. I forgot, and I know they were subtle.
I don't want to do this exercise again (which is not an argument), as it takes time. BUT you can pay me to do this (as an incentive! aha! it still works... doesn't it?)
And I do wander why they need donations... I guess the people working for Venus should have been able to generate abundance by now? (ok, also not the best argument,...)
What you can do as excersise: find 10 claims they do (from which they say are facts, or declarative statements), and go verify the facts (try google scholar and wikipedia)... Now you are doing hard scientific research.
If 5 of those claims are quite wrong, I would say that would be a good indicator that the whole theory is flawed.
if you can't find any flaws in the theory, then you should become an advocate of it!