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David Hamilton
Santa Clarita, CA
United States

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In all of human history, has there ever been a "culture" worth talking about?

So, I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and... I've come to the conclusion... that no, we have not, ever had, a human culture, worth more than a cursory glance. How did I come to this conclusion?

Well... It's quite simple actually... Do what the inbred monarch says, or die... doesn't seem like much of a culture to me. We talk about French and British "culture" as if they are something that exist... France and Britain, literally fought a hundred years war. For 4 generations, their entire culture can be summed up by saying "Oh, you're 12... Here's a weapon then... Off you go... God save the queen".

That's not a culture. This led me to think aobut Mayan's and the Incan civillization, and the native Americans... What culture did these people have that was so wonderful? They could do math... but they used math to create "magic" which gave them cultural power. If you disagreed with them, you got your head chopped off.. These aren't cultures, they're asylums.

So... Who, if anyone, is willing to defend the past? Who wants to try and explain to me how their culture was different?

I would like to suggest, that no culture on earth has ever really been worth discussing... "Polite society"... has only just begun, and pretending that there were codes of ethics that existed in human culture before recent events, is actually just an attempt to glorify the monkey. It's an attempt to pretend that human beings haven't always been violent, incompetent animals.

Personally I think we need to learn to embrace, and understand our sadistic past, and nature, if we are to overcome it. The illusion of culture, seems to work against that.

Thoughts?

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Debra Smith 200+
- +1
Jun 28 2012: I think it depends on what you consider 'worthy'. I think there are a lot of fascinating cultures but no perfect ones. I also think that there are a lot of fascinating people but no peak or perfect people. That does not diminish their accomplishments though. As I have said before, people's development is like a bar graph. we need olympic and extreme athletes to demonstrate to us what is possible so we can believe in our possibilities just as we need our brilliant scholars to show us what is possible. Each society or culture or at least many of them demonstrate this collectively. Others might show us what not to do. It is still instructional and valuable even if we are delighted that we do not have to live in it. Nothing is perfect but humanity can pick and choose.
- David Hamilton 50+
  - 0
  Jun 29 2012: I very much agree with this. I guess the only thing that bothers me, is that we seem to look at some cultures, and see them as brilliant scholars or peak atheletes, especially our own. The reality, might be that some cultures, are at the level of semi pro skateboarders at the moment... Michael Jordan isn't all that interested in the sport. Most operate on the intellectual level of Seacrest, not Degrasse Tyson.
  
  I think fascinating, and functional can be two different things. I'm not entirely confident we yet have a functional culture, but I do agree many are fascinating.
  - Debra Smith 200+
    
    0
    Jun 29 2012: I just want to poiint out, dear David that it is worth discussing! Perhaps they are not functional to your specifications but they are considered 'functional' enough by the people who live in them or there would be changes. The American society is not perfect, you are seeing clearly but it does somethings extremely well amd evolving may not be your peak quality but it does happen. The level of anxst in your society indicates that this concept of change is in process - you just have to keep nudging for an opening that will let you all through. The saying goes -if it ain't broken don't fix it but the opposite is also true- so help fix it! Bob and i had a fun discussion last night. While I do not agree with his take you can not fault him for not trying. If you let only Bob try- you might end up with something less functional so if you need motivation- that's my take on it.
Richard Kroll
- 0
Jun 12 2012: Since the question is so broad, I restrict myself to a subset.

If one excludes the arts and sciences, the most significant positive cultural contribution of the West to the world were the ideas of the European Enlightenment. Strangely, the same set of ideas resulted in the magnificent US Constitution (plus Bill of Rights) and the disastrous French Revolution.

Unfortunately, no nation state has been able to offer a combined package of art, science, political thought, and customs worth emulating.
- Timo X
  - 0
  Jun 12 2012: Okay, I'll bite: why was the American revolution magnificent and the French revolution disastrous?
  
  OT: 'Worth talking about' is not the same as 'ideal' or even 'good' or 'moral'. Having pointles wars and cutting off heads seems like something that people should talk about, because talking about it may prevent us from doing it in the future. Slavery which, as mentioned below, has been outlawed relatively recently, is a good example of this.
  - Richard Kroll
    
    0
    Jun 12 2012: I said the American Constitution (not revolution) was magnificent.
MR T
- 0
Jun 6 2012: Culture is still culture whether its brutal or not, the apparent level of brutality at the time is relative to the time in which that person is living. Personally though I'd say that human society is no less barbaric than the world ever has been.

As a citizen of the UK, if you repeatedly refuse to comply with the UK government's laws the ultimate eventuality is that you will be killed, this is the same for most countries.
Barry Palmer 50+
- +2
Jun 6 2012: I agree with your negative judgment of past cultures (and our current one). So, how did we develop the values to make this judgment, if not from our current culture? And how did that culture come to exist, if not from past cultures?
- David Hamilton 50+
  - 0
  Jun 6 2012: Some things are right... Some things are wrong. Not necessarily, good or bad... but correct and incorrect. I would argue that what we call "culture", is often the writing, and rhetoric, of great individuals, who in reality, hated their own culture, and wanted to see it dramatically improved.
  
  I guess, in some ways I'm simply arguing for culture being attached to great individuals, rather than region, race, and nation. A great person theory of history... with a profound respect for how the "culture" surrounding great people, often does not embrace them. We should aspire to be, and appreciate great individuals, in order to establish a culture, where those people no longer feel like outliers. It's on us.
Noah Crossfield
- +1
Jun 3 2012: I definitely understand the point that you are making. History is composed of these imperfect and sometimes barbaric civilizations. This is very true, but I certainly believe that there is some respect that is deserved by some of history's great empires. This doesn't necessarily come from the fact that they were morally perfect and utopian; this respect comes from the fact that they were much better than other places in the world at the time. Look at the Roman Empire. Although there was corruption, slavery, brutal torture, and many other "bad" things, the empire still managed to unite a large portion of the world, raise the standard of living of its citizens, and provide advances in science. The Romans were not perfect by any means, but if I was alive during that era, I would most certainly want to be a Roman citizen. So I while I totally agree that history is filled with corruption, we should not acknowledge the advances that different societies made in our world.

Also something to note, your view on the subject matter is very important. It seems that you have a very Western and modern view. In Western Civilization, we see slavery and torture as evil, but this sentiment is historically a very new one. Slavery was common until the nineteenth century. Based on your view, you have a totally different set of values that you examine the world. You have a different grading rubric that is very sensitive to the present. I think that is very important in how to view this issue.

Overall, I think culture is constantly changing and growing. I think some deserve our respect for their advances in our world, but we as a society should just build upon the past cultures in order to make ours better.
- David Hamilton 50+
  - 0
  Jun 6 2012: Totally agree with almost everything you say here. I disagree with the Modern Western perspective though, and this is where I'm a bit of an unusual person nowadays... I truly believe in objectivity, and I think there is evidence that objectivity existed even in the distant past, despite how rare it was. Shakespeare knew slavery was wrong, "Polite English Society", did not. Culture, is... Despite culture. I don't think I have a biased perspective, I think humanity is moving towards an objective one, if we don't derail ourselves.
  
  I would also add... that... Yes, some of our great civillizations deserve our respect... but, my point, is that they also deserve our disrespect, all of them... including our own. We live up to the first, not so much the second, in my humble opinion.
Scott Armstrong 50+
- 0
Jun 3 2012: I've never been able to see anything of value in the past except the entertainment value in the stories that we call "history".

Culture is an overused and overrated term. Like most human inventions, it's artificial and relative.

Forget the past. No answers there. Just a good yarn.
Heather White 10+
- 0
Jun 1 2012: Chairman Mao called WW1 and WW2 the European Civil War - he was correct. To the Chinese, all white people look the same!

All European countries (including European Russia) are part of one creative, trading, merging, competitive culture - which exported itself worldwide through the process of colonisation - starting with the discovery and settling of the Americas by the Spanish, Portugease, British, French and Dutch.

I call it a competitive culture because across Europe there was considerable land shortage in which to expand into - Europe is just the western edge of the Asian land mass. A growing population led to expansion into lands already occupied - so alliances between rulers (through marriage) were made or wars were waged to settle the issue. This alliance and waring phase is the basis of European history, until the idea of colonization occurred. After the America's were discovered (as a byproduct of trying to discover a quicker trading route to India and the far east) the idea of exporting citizens became appealing - and the land grab began.

This aspect of European history is only one part of European Culture - which is much broader. In the study of Anthropology the researcher always goes away to study an unknown culture. This is because we cannot see the "wood for the trees" when we are in a familiar one. It takes being a stranger to see the differences and querks of human life. The USA is a off shoot of European culture - perhaps you are too close to the trees to see.
- David Hamilton 50+
  - 0
  Jun 3 2012: My point however, is was this culture worth exporting? Is there any value to it. Yes American culture is an off shoot of European culture, but in my opinion... They're both horrible. I would only credit America with leaving part of the awful European nonsense behind, inbreeding and royalty. While we did that however, we still had slaves, and were killing the people we decided to call indians.
  
  Culture, as a word, tends to have a positive connotation, as if it is good to be cultured... I'm finding myself wondering if it's not the worst thing in the world to be cultured... I certainly wouldn't want to sign on to any aspect of European culture... Save maybe reading Shakespeare and Dostoevsky.
  
  I find myself thinking it really unfair to Shakespeare however, to suggest that he is a part of English culture. Doestoevsky is even less a part of Russian culture. They were exceptions to the culture of stupidity and murder that infected their peers... That's just my two cents.
  - Obey No1kinobe 50+
    
    0
    Jun 4 2012: David, maybe people just look at importing the good bits. Like secular democratic government. Like rule of law and equality under the law. Like supporting human rights. Like science free from superstition.
    
    There is good and bad in all cultures depending on your perspective. Lets leverage and build on the good and address the bad.
    
    suggest we don't throw out the baby with the dirty bathwater.
    - David Hamilton 50+
      
      0
      
      Jun 6 2012: I agree... I would just argue, "secular democratic government", that is a great idea, ingrained into many cultures... but does a secular democratic government actually exist? America kills an awful lot of Muslims in the world, and the Christians are pretty much the only people happy about it...
      
      Almost all the other secular democratic governments are right there with us. I'm not saying that there is no quality of secular democracy to our governance, but I do think we refuse to tell our children that "If your generation wakes up, and demands a secular democracy... You'll be one of very few generations to have it, if not the first... We don't quite have it."
      
      That's what I wish I saw a little more of. I think people are embarrassed.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
- 0
Jun 1 2012: I hope monarchy and theocracies have had their day and we move on to something better.
I hate being the subject of an unelected queen living in another country who is our head of state and head of the Anglican church.
It's so 17th century.
Viva la Republic.
Citizen not subject please.
Gerald O'brian 50+
- +1
Jun 1 2012: I agree with your disapointment in lame human societies.
But I don't see why a pathetic brainwashing culture shouldn't deserve to be called a culture anyway. In fact, I think cultures are FUNDAMENTALLY about brainwashing, about hating other cultures and going to war against them, ... about keeping themselves the same and destroying rivals.
Few are the cultures which have drifted away from this crap. We are living in one of these unusual cultures.

It's fashionable for Westerners to blame Western civilization for screwing up the Earth, for raping innocent cultures all around the world. It's fashionable to say that Westerners are materialists, capitalists and imperialists. But that's nonsense of course. The amount of philosophical progress we've made since braindead cultures of the past is priceless, and entirely responsible for the world being as wonderful as it is today.
- David Hamilton 50+
  - +1
  Jun 3 2012: My sentiments exactly... I would only add that, we don't have it anywhere near figured out yet, even in the non violent societies, and being arrogant as if we did, has been our major shortcoming. The few relatively nonviolent relatively stable cultures in the world, are still in infancy, and we don't have this system perfected yet.
  - Gerald O'brian 50+
    
    0
    Jun 3 2012: Hard to tell whether you're an optimist or a pessimist.
    How much more do you believe the system can be perfected?
    - David Hamilton 50+
      
      +1
      
      Jun 6 2012: Didn't I mention something about bi polar disorder recently? Isn't that just life? : p
      
      I think that there have been very simple solutions to every problem that humanity currently faces, since the 1970's, and we've done literally nothing... Worse. I'm a strange breed of political animal... More and more I find myself with one political idol above all others, and he's arguably the least successful American politician in history... Jimmy Carter.
      
      Some of his policies worked out poorly, but I consider that mostly the result of poor management after he got trounced. I think there are maybe 5 political issues that every individual human being on the planet must embrace in order for humanity to survive.
      
      In the time of Carter, we offered nuclear technology to North Korea, and Iran, in exchange for a legitimate presence which could monitor for weapons... We offered poor, desperate, and violent people power, for peace. It almost worked. We could follow up on that today, but it would be stupid. Solar concentration is the power of the future, especially in a place like Iran. This is the most important issue, and it's the only one where there is a proven American government intervention to stop progress.
      
      NASA has fantastic solar cell technology, which operates best at 300 suns... Right now, it's expensive as hell... Put everything about the cell design in the public domain, and a bunch of companies will sprout up bringing economies of scale to the problem, and making a fortune. NASA actually applied to have several patents released and sold, during the Bush Administration... They were denied for "national security reasons".
      
      Why are they doing this. Solar concentration is the future... and it's dangerous... Just like early nuclear technology. You're going to use a mirror satellite dish, to focus 300 suns into a single point... is it a good weapon? No. Will it be a government sponsored product that eventually burns a small childs face off? Yes...
    - David Hamilton 50+
      
      +1
      
      Jun 6 2012: So we have to have the self respect, to demand that the government trusts us not to burn our houses and faces down... and we don't have that self respect currently. Our government will not give it to us.
      
      The only solution to this problem thus becomes local concentration. Boil water, turn a turbine, DIY, everyone in the world has free electricity... Do it at the beach with my soon to be perfected, desalinator, and all beach communities are provided with free electricity, salt, and fresh water. This lowers sea level.
      
      How do we stop fighting about global warming if that doesn't do enough? Point the mirrors at the sky. David Hamilton magical, un patentable plan, for global cooling. What do we need all this fresh water for? Well, it will save a bunch of island communities from drowning first of all... but, more importantly we use it for aquaculture... Fresh fish locally... Everywhere, no fishing, no interfering with the oceans. The oceans swell with fish... Dolphins and Whales start talking to us as they evolve. Sharks develop feet and we go to war... Wait... What was I talking about...
      
      Oh yeah, so I just created a culture of DIY where everyone can provide themselves with with free power, food, and clean water, without making the world ugly. What do whe all do with our time? Whatever we want. We'll have to pay the people who still mine, farm, and plant and harvest trees really well, they should have kooshy 20 hour a week jobs, since they'll do real labor during it.
      
      Everyone else will craft things, tell stories, write music... Technology, entertainment, and design. In general, I think the system did too much. We need to trust people more, but punish real violence, theft, and destruction.
      
      Thus we get to the next important political issue individuals must care about. Legalize, and non profitize narcotics. Make drug dealing the worst way to make a living. Take the profit and law out of it, and the violence follows. Heroin will be labled "Kills"
    - David Hamilton 50+
      
      +1
      
      Jun 6 2012: If a culture can emerge in which people have the freedom to do anything but directly, and intentionally hurt another human being... but, which actually punishes, and forces labor on violent and destructive human beings... We will survive, thrive, and one day meet an alien race halfway between planets... If we continue to institutionalize hatred and violence, we will destroy ourselves.
      
      I'd lay the odds at exactly 50/50. If you're going to place a bet though... You might as well bet on yourself. So ultimately, I like to consider myself an optimist, but a desperate one, because I see massive changes necessary that will make many people uncomfortable.
Stewart Gault 30+
- +3
May 31 2012: The very brutality of past cultures is what makes them worth talking about, the idea that history, for the main part, should not be allowed to repeat itself. One British politician said "you can't understand politics without understanding history" but I'd tweak it just a little and say you can't understand today without understanding history. Spartan culture is a fascinating culture to think about, chosen at birth whether or not you'd be a good warrior, sent off at 5 to learn to fight, established the most highly trained army of their time managed to hold off a Persian assault, it was renowned throughout Greece that if you wanted to win a war you needed Sparta on your side. Now you can see just how amazing and efficient this kind of culture was, they prospered well economically and were vastly unchallenged. Though they killed babies, took slaves and got too full of themselves. And then the next culture came along and said well what did the Spartans do right and what did they do wrong, and then evolved a new improved culture from the previous one. And it is for that single fact alone, that makes every single past culture there's ever been worth talking about. We learn so much about today from studying the past cultures, it is just another form of evolution. We wouldn't be a polite society if we hadn't gone through all the test phases etc etc. Our polite society is derived from taking the best of yesterday and carrying it forwards whilst leaving behind the worst. And that's why I think every culture should be talked about, because you can't understand today without understanding yesterday.
- David Hamilton 50+
  - 0
  Jun 3 2012: Worth talking about, was probably a poor choice of words... worth talking about with reverance might be a bit more apt. In essence my problem with the way we teach history and culture, is that we don't teach people that Sparta was an inhuman nightmare run by mystics... we only talk about the good things... and really what good things were there? They were a phenomenal warrior culture... isn't that a contradiction in terms?
  
  We tend to idollize cultures that idollize violence, simply because they won... I think that's a mistake. I think when we talk about Sparta, or Rome, or ancient Egypt we can't just talk about their accomplishments... we also have to remind people how horrible it was for the average human being to live in those societies. You have to talk about the mothers watching people throw their children off cliffs... and we don't seem to do a good job of that.
  
  When I think of Russian culture, I think of Dostoevsky... but I don't think of the horrible, miserable life he was forced to live as quickly. Dostoevsky is culture despite where he was raised, not because of it. There have been great human beings, there have even been great cultural behaviors and quirks... but, I don't think there has ever been a country, with a culture worth lauding.
  
  I think we need to become more comfortable talking about how all culture, including whichever one we happen to find ourselves in, is destructive. It is this generations job to make a culture that isn't. I think we want to tell our children, "thank god we figured it all out now"... but the reality is, we haven't, and there is a whole lot of work to be done. Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
  - Stewart Gault 30+
    
    +1
    Jun 3 2012: I see what you mean, teach the kids the bad and the good, tell them to do the good and never do the bad. Problem there is we aren't stupid and even if you taught a kid not to murder other babies he still wouldn't grow up to do it even if you hadn't taught him not to.
    And by Sparta's achievements I mean their maths and scientific contributions. And I think we do need to hail the Spartans for the military power, we shouldn't say that pillaging and random raiding is ok, THOUGH you can learn a lot from their army, if shit ever went down they were ready they knew what to do, and I think there's a hidden message within warrior cultures, they were the first one's to start using logic and reasoning. It all boils down to what you deem to be worthy, I say we can learn so much from history and we have and there's so much brilliance in the past, like Democritus came up with the ideas of atoms in ancient Greece and I think that's pretty dam worthy of being talked about.
    - David Hamilton 50+
      
      0
      
      Jun 6 2012: It reminds me of the common phrase "great and terrible". They're both, not one or the other.

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