- Trevor Rose
- Melbourne
- Australia
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Evolving a new system of economic interaction not based on limited supply currency
I have been developing (with a good friend of mine) a way to replace our existing global systems of limited supply currency based economics with something new.
I have been developing a new methodology of sharing the profits of human endeavour.
I have developed a business system around this, which will enable it to come into being, evolve & grow... but I need non-traditional funding to get it started, and I will also need a lot of very smart people on board to help me develop & evolve the new system, as well as its many various projects.
The core systems are based on the principles of ecological systems modelling.
One of the key elements of this new system is that nature itself is fundamentally considered to be one of the "share holders", and thus must always be compensated for its investment.
This must be done, because no matter how sustainable we make our technologies, it is our economic system itself which is undermining our efforts, which is socially & environmentally unsustainable now, and always will be.
It is amazing in this information age, that our currency is "information dumb", and by this, I mean that it says absolutely nothing other than how much of it there is. Currency only has that one piece of data, its face "value", but as this number is not scientifically connected to anything at all, the term "value" is a complete misnomer.
I know there are still many people in the world with money & power who would be afraid of such a change, because they would see it as the diminishing of their empire & power... but all things must change. What this is really all about is developing a new system for economic interaction between people which does not create slaves, but instead empowers people, and where resources are not wasted, but always put to the best use we know how.
I want to know who out there will join with me in seeing this thing made, this is no longer just a theory, it can be done, and only needs now money & people on board to make it happen.
TED Conversations Admin 30+
Trevor Rose
Trevor Rose
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Krisztián Pintér 200+
however, the very essence of money is that it is limited in quantity. so getting rid of this "limitation" is getting rid of its function.
Trevor Rose
...however, this is not the end of the story...
The limited supply of money, and some other factors, also have negative effects, and these negative effects are ultimately so negative & so irreversible, that I am arguing that whether we like it or not, there will come a point in time where no matter what technology we develop, there will be nothing we can do to counter these negative effects, unless we have by that stage managed to get off this one planet & spread to other areas to distribute the impact of our society on nature.
Yes it is possible that we will one day achieve this... however:
1 - it is less likely we will achieve it while the limiting factors of money continue to undermine human society & stifle our true potential
2 - there is no guarantee that we will develop these abilities for space travel & colonization at that level before the proverbial shite really hits the fan
3 - it may be that we theoretically understand how to do it, but have long since chewed up the resources required to achieve it (particularly energy resources) before we get there
4 - the whole time we keep the existing system, people are suffering through the poverty it is causing, and the environment is suffering from the exploitation it cannot support... this is causing sadness in massive levels for countless people, it is causing the extinction of species at an ever increasing rate... and the only way anyone can justify it, is by having really appallingly low standards.
I for one, expect more of us.
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Trevor Rose
yes i can dismiss money as a fundamentally flawed tool by pointing out its flaws & suggesting we should replace it because these flaws are not fixable because of its fundamental mechanics... your claim that i cannot is nothing but an assertion again... a completely unsubstantiated assertion...
where is your evidence, where is your rational discussion, your reasons?
nothing i have said is even remotely related to whether I LIKE money coming in limited amounts... my liking or not liking this is irrelevant, and I never stated anything which warrants that comment from you.
the only things i said I like or dont like, is the fact that these problems with our existing currency system cause problems for society & the environment... and if you DO like those problems, and you DO like currency as it exists regardless of those problems, and you dont think we should do anything to change it... then i think that speaks volumes about your character.
yes i want a world ultimately without this existing form of economic system... because it is a flawed system, and because it can be improved by such a massive amount & it is overdue for it to die... it is obsolete by its inability to become more socially & environmentally sustainable... and I made no effort to hide that, are you serious you needed me to state it?
you cant brush me off as a "commie" anymore than I can brush you off as a "right wing fascist"
you dont see what I am discussing because it is beyond you... and you have done nothing to attempt to understand it, and if you have, then i am rather underwhelmed by your inability to grasp the concepts, and your inability to explain properly your exact reasons for not agreeing, beyond the very limited way in which you just make unsubstantiated assertions.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
i could call you a "commie" if i would have any clue about your proposal. but we still don't have. pointing out some problems with the current system does not constitute as a proposal. what is th e proposal?
unless we hear something new, i'm not going to participate in this conversation anymore.
Trevor Rose
THIS IS A PROPOSAL FOR PUTTING THAT SYSTEM INTO OPERATION, AND THE BASIC PREMISES REQUIRED TO MAKE IT WORK HAVE ALL BEEN DETERMINED... IT JUST NEEDS FUNDING & RESOURCES TO GET IT STARTED.
Part of the business strategy around it is a plan for its exponential growth, because every person who gets involved has the maximum possibility of advancing their own projects.
...yes, I am quite serious about this... it is literally ready to go, and once started, will evolve & grow while simultaneously creating projects in every imaginable realm of endeavour, which are all based on creating a more friendly, sustainable, and exciting world.
I posted this conversation in the TED forums in the hope that people with resources & connections who are serious about this change taking place, can come forward & put their money where their mouth is, rather than everyone spending the next 5 - 10 years debating how to do it.
pat gilbert 50+
Trevor Rose
pat gilbert 50+
Re proposal and my lack of understanding I might suprise you.
The very definition of money is an symbol backed by confidence. This is the reason it is often backed by gold or something valuable. This is one thing about your proposal that is ambigous which means I don't have any confidence in your proposal.
You appear to have the notion that the economy is a zero sum game, this is patently not true, the pie grows.
You appear to have the notion that you know best or that world's affairs should can be regulated again this is patently untrue. One day in the economy contain's hundreds billions of decesions made by individuals following their own best interest which connect all 7 billion of us every day through these transactioins. This is natural law that only works when it is left alone. When it meddled with it inevitably ends up in failure and suffering.
The very definition of economics is the study of scarce resources that have alternative uses. This means that todays scarcities are tommorows plenties if the free market is allowed to work it's magic. E.g. energy todays scarcity in oil will result in a more plentiful energy source tommorow as the price rises someone will come up with a better solution unless someone is allowed to meddle with or regulate natural law out of it.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Trevor Rose
Economics IS NOT the study of scarce resources that have alternative uses yaddah yaddah yaddah... economics is the study of the effect of MONEY on & from other things (including the scarce resources you mentioned)... what you said is what economists THINK economics is a study of, because they dont understand real science, and because they think that their comprehension of basic arithmetic & their use of it in counting how much money they made & how they made it, constitutes a science... it is a joke of a science, and every other scientist (and especially the mathematicians) know this.
Did you know that economics has to hire real mathematicians to do their maths for them, because the economists cant DO that level of maths for themselves in the first place?
Did you know that none of those real mathematicians, nor any other real scientist has ever been involved in developing any of the underlying core principles of economics? ...and so any maths they do, is only counting the numbers of a fundamentally flawed system?
...of course you dont Pat, you believe in it as religiously as a person of faith does believe in their own particular sect or cult.
Trevor Rose
Krisztian - have you ever opened your eyes & noticed how TED has a severe character limit & no ability to embed anything? ...did it ever occur to you that for me to explain completely such a complex system in text alone in this minimal space would be an impossibility, and what I was hoping via this supposedly intellectual forum is that I would encounter something other than trolls who do nothing more than look for something to criticize & then do so without bothering to look for anything other than ammunition to criticize with?
Both you & Pat have patently failed to be polite, patently failed to take the slightest interest in asking real questions, and patently failed to see the substance of what i have written and thereby determine what sensible questions you could have asked... and I dont know if your comments pass as clever in your own circles, but they certainly do not do so in mine... i do not know anyone who would be anything other than utterly embarrassed to post what you both have... and it says way more about yourselves than anything else.
...and finally TED > I came to this forum in good faith posting a concept which has been worked on for many years by myself and another guy who is an EXPERT in the field of ecological systems modelling, and whom has completed his MASTERS in instrumentation engineering, along with several other post grad degrees at RMIT in Melbourne Australia.... and not only do you ALLOW these people to harass without reason rationality or evidence, but if I am remotely impolite in my responses to their un-researched & un-educated abusiveness, you censor me??
TED, you are either going to rectify this AND publicly post a major apology about all this, OR I am going to publicly post not only a record of this discussion, but your censorship
pat gilbert 50+
If my assumptions are wrong enlighten me. I have studied this subject more than a little.
R H 20+
Trevor Rose
So far as what is traded, nothing is traded... information is RECORDED... and the information which is recorded, is a mathematically determined contribution that each element of a system makes with respect to a desired outcome... aspects of efficiency (over & under-driving a system) are included in these calculations according to the principles of Maximum Power / Maximum emPower (see the works of the late Howard Odum on ecological systems modelling & the related use of thermodynamics - energy, emergy, transformity, exergy, entropy etc.)
Nature therefore is a contributor to all processes, as much as a person or resource is also a contributor... the respective value of each input with respect to the desired output can be calculated, and there is at least 1 group i know of already gathering this data, though the form in which it needs to be gathered for this application is slightly different, i believe the numbers can be converted... and the initially skeletal system, will evolve over time (internally) to become more sophisticated
the shares are a modification of an existing financial instrument called a redeemable preference share, and they are shares in the various projects which would be conducted to make financial profit in the existing financial system... even though, it is the objective ultimately to replace this system, as the new internal system evolves.
So the system evolving internally within this company, must interface externally to the rest of the world & the existing financial framework, which is does (through the share mechanism alluded to).
So the basis of trade is ultimately no longer a basis of trade, it is a basis of getting things done, and recording value of input
geoffrey douthat
The White Dragon Society proposes using humanity’s savings to end war, end poverty and stop environmental destruction. After that, humanity can be set on a path of exponential expansion into the universe. Our savings and our future planning can be devoted to such attainable goals as increased longevity, improved human abilities, free energy, the creation of new eco-systems, the expansion of life in all its forms and anything else scientifically possible and morally permissible that we can dream of.
The White Dragon Foundation has been set up in order to attain these goals. It will carry them out by means of a meritocratically staffed international economic planning agency.
There are indications coming from all over that the Old World Order is waging an all out offensive on all fronts in order to maintain its grip on global power.
The world now faces a clear choice between the genocidal, racist religious fanatics who want to murder 5 billion people and a group that wants to end poverty, end war, stop environmental destruction and start a Golden Age.
For more information: http://benjaminfulford.net
look forward to your thoughts
Trevor Rose
R H 20+
Trevor Rose
if decisions were made by a committee, that would make them as arbitrary as the existing financial system which is based on such ludicrous things as emotion, confidence, and bargaining position... none of which is directly tied to any physical phenomena that makes any sense to tie it to, or is in any way anything by highly variable.
in brief, the process of ecological systems modelling is to define a boundary for a system you wish to analyse, this could be a pond, an office, or a community next to a forest... the model contains all the resources & elements of that system, and it also contains data about each element, & its interactions with other elements... and there is also data about the inputs & outputs of that system (which means that system once modelled, can then be treated like a "black-box" and its inputs can be mapped from the outputs of another system, and its own outputs can be mapped to the inputs of a system... and sometimes there is feedback from an output back into the same system as an input.
this is a universal modelling language which can be applied to any system. what we model, is energy & emergy.. energy is measured in Joules, and emergy (embodied energy) is measured in emjoules (basically the same thing, except they are not free the way energy is)... kind of like the difference between kinetic & potential energy (but still different again).
what this system would enable internally for the business which generates it, is an extremely efficient set of processes for its competitiveness against other businesses.
R H 20+
Trevor Rose
The existing financial systems of the world are extremely flawed...
Currency ONLY states its face value; it doesnt care where or how you got it, and this makes theft possible, unfairness possible, & all sorts of things possible ...but I could not list all the flaws of currency here in this forum, that is an article of its own.
So far as feedback loops in modelling is concerned, that is actually quite easy, and the problems you raise are no where near as big as you may imagine them to be. but I cannot explain it to you without first giving you a lesson in maths & science, and even then it would be a lot easier done face to face so i can draw you pictures.
Could I ask you to accept that some things you will not understand in this discussion?
I think you are interpreting a lot of things in entirely the wrong way, and far from being obsolete on installation, this system would create a company very difficult for others to compete with if they were in the exact same industry producing the same or similar products & services - and there are a whole host of reasons for that.
Besides all of this, the comparison between what I am proposing & the existing economic systems of the world, really comes down to this:
1 - the existing systems have already failed in delivering sustainability & friendliness to both society & the environment, they are absolutely undeniably destructive & unsustainable, all evidence shows this conclusively & irrefutably.
2 - as the world's population grows, and the earth's already taxed ability to replenish itself shrinks further, doing nothing is not an option.
3 - the existing system is incapable of being part of the solution, because of its flaws... either it has to be redesigned from scratch, or replaced by something without flaws.
geoffrey douthat
Not sure by what you mean by limited supply currency? As in redistrubition? Because 80%+ of global capitial is virtual, i.e. not enough printed cash to pay out everyone at once.
Like to hear about your plan, i have one too,
http://www.ted.com/conversations/11648/this_is_an_open_letter_to_all.html
maybe a collaboration if compatible?
Trevor Rose
flexman feng
Trevor Rose