This conversation is closed. Start a new conversation
or join one »
At what level does the cost of justice become injustice. – An Idea before the inevitable Question to come, in another conversation.
I am looking to hear from commenters' who accept Zimbardo’s hypotheses on Evil; imagine it a pre-requisite to getting a thumbs-up.
There is a lesson to be learned from this topic; will you be a “hero” or continue the evil by being “passive” about it?
Big-Businesses, shipping world wide are subject to outside-quality-control. Our industry of courts are a value-adding-chain-of-operations [With no outside-quality-control] with many players. The operators are the lawyers, judges and hundreds of specialists and other court officials; the whole being “very big business.” They all must be paid; but with whose money? And then of course there is a value-added-tax that goes to our government. What is the cost of a divorce; for many in the middle class it is their entire wealth. Do you find this immoral?
Can you imagine this value-adding-chain being like a Train that you get on for the ride; and can’t get off until the final destination?
Do you have the courage to say this is an evil business train; not unlike another “story of trains” we know in history? Is that much evil, a function of a few bad apples, or a function of the business organization itself? People lose their homes by tiny-fraudulent-steps which are sold by Realtors. Deed-Notaries allow for fraudulent conveyances! And plaintiff’s lie “a-little.” And Judges hastily grant unconscionable court orders. At every stage of the chain, “just a little bit of evil” is added; the total delivers death; death by a thousand cuts.When will we be able to bring the criminals to justice in the criminal courts?
When are we going to overturn the money changers tables? Will you just say there is nothing you can about it.
Closing Statement from Don Wesley
It has provided us with the names of commentors who are seeking the right path to justice.
They must be honored.
They are to be trusted.
I am truly a better person, having talked to them.
Don [From The Silent Generation - the 30's]
Don Wesley 50+
An Indian lad and his close friend, were walking along Broadway near Times Squares, in New York city, when he stopped and said he just heard a cricket. “Impossible,” his friend replied, “there is just too much traffic noise to hear such a thing. The Indian, reached into a flower pot, at the entrance to a store and removed a hand-full of earth revealing a cricket. Clearing his hand, he grasped a handful of pocket coins and dropped them to the sidewalk, attracting the attention of several walkers; “we both have been given ears to hear and yet we are tuned-in, to hear different messages,” was his exclamation. After hearing this story, my mind flipped over to the three-monkeys; and then flipped again to another set of words [see evil, hear evil, talk about evil; then with your hands do something to overcome the situation of evil which has been revealed to you. Decide not to be, just a too busy passer-by.]
Feel free to use my comments and reveal this as part of my living story.
Elder Don
Peace.
Don Wesley 50+
I write you this very short comment, to direct you to another clarifying video talk.
YOUR HONOR? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PMGG_QZkuM&feature=related
Don
Don Wesley 50+
Here is a Canadian Fathers story in Video:
Courts From Hell -- Family InJustice in Canada http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6yAzhEf-Og&feature=related
And from — Albert Einstein "The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it."
Don
Hilton Barlach
In this book there is a phrase that says: "the devil in the street in the middle of the wind whirl" (o diabo na rua no meio do redemunho)... it's difficult to catch the devil but we must at least try...
By the way... Guimarães Rosa uses about 50 synonyms of devil in the story...
Don Wesley 50+
Please revisit for more testimony at this hour.
Don
Hilton Barlach
Don Wesley 50+
I feel that it might be fair to say that given the huge power of our Canadian organizations, the rest of the world may be less controlled (as a ratio) by the Devil. If you read my story profile, you will see that my focus, all my life, has been to reveal systemic evil. I too am a generalist with an industrial engineering history of work, and I am jumping on your interest. I invite you to my latest conversation to tell your story. I have a blog about injustice. Canada is a wonderful place to study how one can escape justice when doing very bad things. Luckily I am not burdened by shame as a Canadian; I am righteously angered to fight evil, the source of suffering and poverty and spiritual death. I have no trouble at all to call it what is and what it is not.
It not collateral damage, it is systemic evil. Am I a target to keep quiet; I work for the betterment of humanity, and to capture your interest is precious.
Don Wesley
Don Wesley 50+
It was the only time that my lawyer telephoned and emailed me to “remind me” about the critical date; a date I had never heard of before. It was his associate who told me, secretly, that all his cases ended this way. He said the only hope, was if they sold the home fraudulently. I had not heard from him since I was evicted from my own property. They did sell it fraudulently and you can see evidence on my web site. It was startling to find key documents missing from my records; documents such as deeds and cheque statements that would prove it was me, who bought and paid for the property, that I allege was fraudulently stolen from me, by small incremental steps of perjured sworn affidavits.
I do have objective proof ready for the criminal courts. I ask to read my replies to Scott Nesler comments for more details. Thank you Mitch.
Until soon, Don,
Mitch SMith 50+
It has to be delivered for posterity. This fight must not fade.
I urge you to help assemble a trust of faith that honours your truth.
You are far from alone. There are hands ready for your touch.
Don Wesley 50+
It is a heavy burden for a man at any age, but strangely easier for me in my eightieth year. I am free of worldly baggage, and working with passion for Justice.
My friend, Victor Roth, frequently uses an old English quote “Box on” Don. We have known one another for just over seventy years, and he has supported me over the last three years with a mystical spirit from his home in San Francisco; through the electro-magnetic spectrum, talking and texting. As youngsters we played with crystal sets, then transistor radios and now the internet. How remarkable it is with me in Canada, you in Australia and Vic in the USA. With you and him as my corner men, I will Box on.
In the fight to overcome the d-evil in the Family Court System, I will not use the logic of that court; I will use the logic of medicine, by elimination we will reveal the truth. I will work in the light of the great architect above. Words configured as quotes will be one of the weapons. Words in essays will provide the power, which is greater than the gun, the court and money. Each essay of truth will provide the level path that will be cleared to show us the way. I am inspired by the revelations that this special conversation has raised into the light. You Mitch and Scott Nesler [Do Good] and others who have been given the thumb of acknowledgement are the messengers, not from hell, but from the power of light.
And, staying in the same metaphor, the door of “Do Good” will grow to be the pharmacy of healing quotes.
Peace be with you,
Don [From the Silent Generation] - http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2011/12/science-of-silent-generation-is-lever.html
Mitch SMith 50+
Many thanks for your vision.
At this point, may I recommend an additional element?
That is the element of "traction". Once the issue is clear enough to spur action, there is the need to assemble preparation by means of actual deeds.
In the past, I found projects to be composed of talk and investment in talk until the first deed was anounced and those engaged with the project have something to engage with.
This need not be a large committment, but a starting point for the work to begin.
This is what I call "traction" .. the necessary pinprick whereby all concerned can gain a foothold for the next step. It is the first and second steps that give ingress for engagement. Once engagement is commited in action, the project then continues to gain better and better traction.
SOmething as simple as putting a donate button on your blog may be all that is needed to crystalise traction for your supporters.
Hope this helps!
Mitch
Don Wesley 50+
Hi Mitch, I find your comments carefully constructed and wise. Please understand that all the aspects you have raised, I have already considered over the past three years of patient waiting. Your view, reinforces my own. Money is not what I want although that would allow me to cover the costs of my own funeral. I am fighting to uncover the evil which is systemically embedded within the family court system. It is harming all who pass through its portals. I am not alone in acting as the town-crier; my blog web site will direct you to others, including the Governor General of Canada. Just follow the money, and you will see the tables ready to be overturned. I want my descendants to feel proud of their father, rather than them suffering personal shame. All these years, I have collected the court records and the “unusual” emails from my wife’s associate, who was devilishly attempting to guide me all the time. For several months they combed through my documents, photograph, light tools and equipment etc. A small proportion of my intellectual property and equipment; they delivered into local storage and then told me I had a couple of weeks to claim or it would be thrown out. I took it out and brought to Ottawa and put it into rented storage; which I couldn’t afford.
---- Please continue to the next frame. number one
Don Wesley 50+
It was the only time that my lawyer telephoned and emailed me to “remind me” about the critical date; a date I had never heard of before. It was his associate who told me, secretly, that all his cases ended this way. He said the only hope, was if they sold the home fraudulently. I had not heard from him since I was evicted from my own property. They did sell it fraudulently and you can see evidence on my web site. It was startling to find key documents missing from my records; documents such as deeds and cheque statements that would prove it was me, who bought and paid for the property, that I allege was fraudulently stolen from me, by small incremental steps of perjured sworn affidavits.
I do have objective proof ready for the criminal courts. I ask to read my replies to Scott Nesler comments for more details. Thank Mitch.
Don Wesley 50+
Hi Mitch, I find your comments carefully constructed and wise. Please understand that all the aspects you have raised, I have already considered over the past three years of patient waiting. Your view, reinforces my own. Money is not what I want although that would allow me to cover the costs of my own funeral. I am fighting to uncover the evil which is systemically embedded within the family court system. It is harming all who pass through its portals. I am not alone in acting as the town-crier; my blog web site will direct you to others, including the Governor General of Canada. Just follow the money, and you will see the tables ready to be overturned. I want my descendants to feel proud of their father, rather than them suffering personal shame. All these years, I have collected the court records and the “unusual” emails from my wife’s associate, who was devilishly attempting to guide me all the time. For several months they combed through my documents, photograph, light tools and equipment etc. A small proportion of my intellectual property and equipment; they delivered into local storage and then told me I had a couple of weeks to claim or it would thrown out. I took it out and brought to Ottawa and put it into rented storage; which I couldn’t afford.
---- Please continue to the next frame.
Don Wesley 50+
Scott, I revealed this story in my description at the start, using rhetorical questions, which you asked me to pull together.
I asked you to answer “yes or no” to seeing evil. You have answered NO. You are a very intelligent and creative man who is proving to be a leader, not unlike Paul, who held to law of the land. You have also declared you are still seeking truth and that is hopeful. I can declare that my answer to the question is YES; there is evil in the court system; far too much evil. Follow the money! Being passive, is still evil, Scott. For those who feel inclined they can see my journal of thoughts where I write almost daily, since I was evicted. Understand my story as a complete whole, it reveals a startling truth. - http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/
Together in this “one conversation” we have constructed another useful view of truth. I thank you again Scott. I also wish to include the priceless contribution of Mitch Smith, who worked hard and found his answer to the question and declared it to be YES; he is thinking far ahead and I look forward to his work.
The Criminal Code of Canada does have a section which deals with theft of property between husband and wife. Anyone can allege a crime and start a Private Prosecution in the Criminal Court.
Scott Nesler
I'm not sure how the legal system deals with the case of divorce when only one individual wishes to use the court system for mediation. I would guess it depends on the laws of the region. Maybe the injustice is in a law allowing one party to determine the mediation of divorce. But is that an injustice or is it the law. A law which likely has a process for amendment.
Don, thank you. You are bringing vision to my idea as well. What kind of system could facilitate mediation? I continue to come back to this idea of association. If we could provide an electronic means to document and query all court decisions, could we use that information to tag future arguments. If such a system existed could it be used in a manner of mediation removed from the court system. Mediapedia, where the first five letter not only refers to a public media, but mediation as well.
Don Wesley 50+
the court would not have accepted my wife's motion of divorce, because malice was present. Then the code allowed a person to bring a motion before the courts, only if there was no intent to harm. Divorce required an act of parliament. The code was changed and, the if part was dropped. Thereafter divorces were handled by the local courts subject to federal law. Back then, my first marriage was annulled, and I was given custody of my son. I was 28 at the time and the whole process took an afternoon. My wife at the time escaped being charged with bigamy. I married my present wife a year later, we had two sons and a blissful marriage.
I had my first lawyer go before a judge and declare that she had made “a typo error” in saying there was no marriage contract. The Judge issued a “Judgement” correcting the mistake. The Judge also allowed my lawyer to be dismissed from the case, and told me to represent myself or get another lawyer; she also allowed my wife, 4 hours, to re-enter the family home [not my offices etc.] and remove her clothes. I was allowed to have a friend present to witness, I was told be absent. My wife did come in and take pictures, but she did not remove her clothes.
Under duress I did get another lawyer, who then mis-represented me. He arranged the have me evicted and the property sold. Since I had run out of cash assets, I could not afford another lawyer and so brought a complaint against him at the Bar. Within two days of my complaint I received an anonymous death threat, and two days later my pet dog ‘Nicky” died of poisoning. I was now homeless and sleeping in my car. I called the RCMP asking for protection and then left Montreal in a hurry and drove to Ottawa; I feared for my life. Months later I was informed that the Bar, was at best seven years behind in hearing the complaints. Continue in next comment
Don Wesley 50+
You said “I examined the evidence you gave in the case of family court and I feel the argument is not sound.” What evidence are you talking about? I hope what I have provided here is more than enough. No reason for a divorce has been true and we are separate as to property; so her claim to assets to nonsense. All the harm that I have endured is called “Elder Abuse” and has been the result of perjury and fraudulent theft.
This all happened because the court made it happen; this is evil, according to the Zimbardo theory.
We have more work to do, Scott.
Scott Nesler
The product of the Do Good Gauge will be a living document. Maybe a living document is what you need for your next step. Not for others to edit, but for others to provide feedback to your story as you develop it. No story should be restrained to a few thousand characters and I'm sure yours will require many, many pages. It needs to start out with a clear thesis statement. Then sections categorizing types of evidence and example. There probably will not be a single template for every story, but an outline may provide direction.
What an electronic media as the Do Good Gauge could provide is the ability for others to identify incoherency in your words. It could provide association rating an external thought from highly relative and supportive to highly relative and counter supportive. Such associations could be quotations, fallacy identification, constitutionality, Supreme Court oral argument/docket correlation, or reference to other court cases on a local, county, state, federal, or even global level. External feedback either directly or through association provides an opportunity for you to revise the coherency of the argument in your living document.
Don Wesley 50+
Until very soon.
Ancient Don, peace
Mitch SMith 50+
I feel we have come to the point where the exact details of the legislation and its application are needed to identify the evil.
In other words, the legislative act under which the court operated, and the court transcripts.
It will probably be necessary to involve a qualified lawyer to extract the exact legal definitions and determinations. The devil very often hides in the details.
Perhaps you can gain access to a pro-bono lawyer. Perhaps your public campaign could attract one.
I find it odd that there is no recourse to appeal.
I also find it odd that there was no examination of the plaintif's competence - there seems to be a psychiatric basis for a challenge.
I'm also a bit foggy on whether or not a divorce has actually been executed?
Also the disbursement of proceeds from the sale of the family home - where did it all go? How did the court and lawyers gain access to that disbursement?
(these are questions I am not asking to be reveled online, but will be cogent to your cause)
So far, you have identified the unjust outcome. You are told that it is a common outcome. This has to be backed-up by enough examples of similar outcomes to lift it out of the realm of "anecdote". This may be important. A littany of harm stories will be a powerful public rally-point, the media will see an opportunity for "news", a law firm might see an opportunity to conduct a class action and run it to extract damages .. but they will also take their fees, so the victory might be moral .. which is not so bad.
But the legal defect has to be nailed right down to the letter of the law.
I hope this helps!
Mitch SMith 50+
It always hurts my heart to see people engage in wanton acrimony.
Few if us are without blemish.
It is at its ugliest when families war amongst themselves, heardening their hearts and engaging in wicked plots against each other.
I have seen it all too many times.
Personally, when I detect the potential of it in my own life, I just let them have it all, walk away, burn my bridges and start again.
However, when you are engaged in such a battle, it is all down to law - and you must fight to win. Once a thing goes into court, there must be no contact between the combatants whatsoever because unintended concessions can be obtained that make it more difficult for the law to untangle.
In this case, there seems to be a problem with the law itself.
You are fighting on several fronts - your family and the court.
Your conflict with the family is on the basis of fraud - looks like you have a good case for that. The outcome is a matter of assets.
Your conflict with the court is on justice. The outcome is a matter of principle.
It might help to keep the 2 fronts as separate as possible and decide which outcome is most precious to you. THis will help you concentrate on the best way forward.
Don Wesley 50+
Dear Scott, your comments have been truly magnificent; each revealing wisdom, awareness and caring, and I am astounded!
I wish the story could be ended here, but reality requires that I add more truth, in what I will call, the story behind the story.
The contrast to come will be even more astounding in that it will reveal a legal-nightmare-train of injustice and stark evil. A train which leaves the court houses everyday, year after year; with countless man-made victims; children, parents and grandparents. This not collateral damage, Scott! We own the trains to our virtual Auschwitz destinations.
I will happily add the following facts, which will certainly change the basic assumptions of your conclusion, which is, that the courts “are not to blame.” I can say with absolute truth, “the court has not provided mediation, nor has it provided a divorce.” It is now over 3 years in the court; stalled by lawyers actions. This is an ending, all too common; a real-estate agent also told me so.
What the court did, was evict me from my property and sell it; and hold the money. My property, which included the family home, also included my studio, tool room and offices where I created intellectual property, which provided income for my family. I went from home to homelessness in less than 15 minutes. I left with the clothes on my back. The whole process was more important to the court than my well being; it was unconscionable. Given my age of 78 at the time I was also a victim of elder abuse. I am not alone Scott, this is how the family court works, for most all who find themselves involuntarily in court. It is a train into hell. The court officers [Judges, lawyers] show no evidence of remorse or conscience.
Most divorce requests are brought into courts, by walk-away wives. The men are forced to enter the system. I will continue in a new comment.
Scott Nesler
If you could provide examples of other court system who behave in a more just and efficient manner, you have a weapon for your defense. I don't like this analogy, but maybe it is a war. You are going to have to increase your arsenal. Example and evidence are your weapons. Use the records of your court against them. If you can illustrate inconsistencies or prior injustices you can show the hypocrisy of their system.
These are just some thoughts. The plan requires way more collaboration and many iterations before it has a chance.
This all sounds like alot of work. More work than most are able to provide. Bringing it back to the Do Good Gauge. I believe a new internet media could facilitate the gathering of a group willing to build a coherent, respectful, and factual argument. An argument not only for the benefit of that individual, but for future individuals faced with a similar problem. For those with a distaste for the word argument or law, the same tool could be used to develop scientific or public solutions.
Don Wesley 50+
The logic of the court needs a new paradigm and that requires a leap of intuition.
I am inclined to think the Do Good Gauge may be very helpful in this situation.
Visit my web site to get my email address. See my profile to get it.
Your comment is so powerful and full of knowledge and wisdom.
Don Wesley 50+
They do reveal the perjury and truth to prove the assets are mine and have been stolen from me,
I have to make this proof before the Criminal Court and I am a few days away from completing prescribed documents to the court.
Don Wesley 50+
Scott, I am not developing an argument under this “Idea;” I will do that under a “Debate”
Zimbardo has described evil in his TED talk and reveals that it is the organization, and not the individual “Bad Apples” who have the “power” to do really big evil.
I now say that, under certain conditions, the Family Court Organization, does-not-deliver-Justice, and yet charges for it. Unfortunately this evil outcome happens too often and harms people. I was a victim of that kind of harm.
The cost is paid for by the family unit that comes into the court. Zimbardo would see this as an evil and those of us who would reveal it would be heroic.
To illustrate, I send you to read two quick pictures:
(1) http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2011/08/blog-post.html
(2) http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2011/08/we-cannot-take-for-granted-continuance.html
I welcome any comments which will help me construct a less ambiguous interpretation. You are helping me do just that.
I sincerely thank you.
Scott Nesler
The second illustration is the key to protect against such evil. We must continually survey our systems. Regulation. More must understand the rules and methods to mend a failing process. In software development we call it unit testing. We must provide unit test to check our public processes on a regular basis.
In the case of an unjust family court system, the solution may require a dedicated group willing to research the rules and methods for amendment. The group must illustrate the injustice. The media should not only spread the word of this injustice, it should facilitate the public development of a document describing the injustice, it should allow opposing points of view to be described as well. The media should educate the public on how a process can be amended. The media should guard against the corruption in its financial gain, it should be a public servant which provides understanding to the community. And the community should be highly involved in regulating and maintaining the integrity of the media.
We can't rely on hero's. Superman is a comic strip character. A system must be devised where ordinary citizens perform as the construction worker said, "I did what anyone could do, and what everyone OUGHT to do."
Thank you Don for your respect in this dialogue. Please take a look at my idea;
Let build a better media to facilitate democratic debate:
http://www.ted.com/conversations/11219/let_s_build_a_better_media_to.html?c=461895
Don Wesley 50+
You have come a long way towards my thinking, but not far enough. I did say in my description that Zimbardo's hypothesis was a pre-requisite to commenting to this idea.
You appear to have missed his definition of hero, which is someone we can rely on; not a comic strip character.
I have done the research and have documented how the crimes occurred within the system. Further more I am starting a Private Criminal Prosecution of these crimes, within the Criminal Court. This will not get my wealth back, but will get Justice for the good of all. I will look at your idea to build a better media.
Please take a look at the following link -
Going to the RCMP to act on my Fraud Complaint - http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2012/02/hi-don-you-asked-for-indication-of.html
Scott Nesler
Payment is required when you take an argument to court, compensation beyond splitting the assets of two parties. There are potentially two lawyers and the court who expects to be paid for service. Lawyers often earn a salary higher than most in society. It is possible the cost of court services exceeds the assets of the argument in dispute.
How do you deal with a monopoly or excessive cost for a product or service? Competition. You went to court for the purpose of mediation. What is mediation? It is making a decision in the arguments of two or more parties. The courts job is to provide reason and justice. The court is a third party which brings jurisprudence to the situation. They provide prior examples of how similar cases were handled.
I'm not suggesting the Do Good Gauge is the be all do all, but it is about argument and the attempts to steer chaos to consensus. If more played the game it could collect examples of similar situations. It could provide an alternative for mediation.
Google provides a service in seeking answer which previously required long periods in the library. Wikipedia solved a similar problem requiring significant time examining an encyclopedia. Craig's list provides a cost effect alternative to the classified ads. Could we develop a more cost effective means of mediation reducing the dependency on the court system?
I don't see your answer in blaming the courts. Divorce is an action where true resolution is found in the members of the family. The court is an apathetic third party.
Don, I wish the best for you, your ex-wife, and your family.
Don Wesley 50+
http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2011/08/we-cannot-take-for-granted-continuance.html
Don Wesley 50+
http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/p/we-need-to-expose-crime-being-commited.html
Don Wesley 50+
http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2011/08/blog-post.html
Don Wesley 50+
Kindness - http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2011/05/look-of-kindness-in-action.html
Do you know the difference between good and evil? Yes I am talking to you.
Give me your answer, yes or no.
Don [From the Silent Generation] - http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2011/12/science-of-silent-generation-is-lever.html
Scott Nesler
Don, I suggest Michael Sandel's TED speech.
http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_sandel_the_lost_art_of_democratic_debate.html
It is a good overview for his online course
http://www.justiceharvard.org/
where he gives a holistic view of justice with an insight to difference between good and evil.
I've weeded through a few quotations acquired through the years. Maybe they are related/maybe not. I hope you can find association from the words of others.
We are born knowing nothing and with much striving we learn but a little; yet all the while we are bound by laws that hearken to no plea of ignorance, and measure out their rewards and punishments with calm indifference. -- Paul Elmer More
Our civilization has essentially globalized only the surfaces of our lives. But our inner self continues to have a life of its own. And the fewer answers the era of rational knowledge provides to the basic questions of human Being, the more deeply it would seem that people, behind its back as it were, cling to the ancient certainties of their tribe. Because of this, individual cultures, increasingly lumped together by contemporary civilization, are realizing with new urgency their own inner autonomy and the inner differences of others. -- Václav Havel
Don Wesley 50+
I have listened with great care to Sandel's Justice lectures at Harvard and his TED speech.
When I refer to Evil, there is an absence of conscience and remorse, in the mind and soul of the perpetrator. I am referring to a sociopath. Therefore there is no lack of clarity
I believe the above comments are extending this conversation with the result being to confuse, rather than to clarify. However it is very useful that you have brought it up.
Also, I believe we are born with a soul, and a mind; the combination of the two controlling the brain; this is more than nothing; it is a mystery. You quote Paul Elmer More who says we are born knowing nothing.
Also your reference to a walk-away father is mis-leading; what about a walk-away mother.
----- I have also made the comment that the court is schizophrenic; not even seeing the injury they are doing. It is going to take an intuitive leap from one system of linear logic to a new reality of logic. The universe is not flat nor a sphere it is infinite.
----- So, you are not answering the question of yes or no. I have more work to do, before leaving the “Idea” and moving to the “Question.”
Scott Nesler
I was baptised into the Christian faith, though I'm still searching for the truth. You speak of a soul acquired at birth. Are you confusing the argument of care for a fellow being versus apathy. Sympathy, respect, and understanding for others is as likely a combination of genes passed through evolution or a learned behaviour in the nurturing of a child than a mystic phenomenon you describe as a soul. Some individuals born into the human species never acquire a high level of sympathy towards a fellow human being. Is that evil? Is a lion cub evil when it kills a monkey for the sport of it? Where does ignorance fall in the equation of evil? What is societies role in combating ignorance? Is it society's fault for the harm performed in the name of ignorance when the society places little value for civic education? A society is made up of individuals. When every individual wishes to live in solitude, ignoring misdeeds or their own laws, is that ignorance or evil? I judge them the same.
"This [bill] on education would [raise] the mass of the people to the high ground of moral respectability necessary to their own safety and to orderly government, and would [complete] the great object of qualifying them to secure the veritable aristoi for the trusts of government, to the exclusion of the pseudalists... I have great hope that some patriotic spirit will... call it up and make it the keystone of the arch of our government." -- Thomas Jefferson
Don Wesley 50+
Don Wesley
Don Wesley 50+
If not understood, then my idea is too ambiguous and needs clarification.
The following Quote [not mine] really removes ambiguity - Matthew 5:37 "Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil."
Don
Scott Nesler
Don, I've developed my own definition for evil, "In pursuit of good, emotional arguments fed by fear, hate, biases, bigotry, or disrespect for reason are often used. It is my belief we are all motivated to do good. In other words, few pursue evil. Evil is an outcome of ignoring the collateral damage of our good intentions."
Evil may also be understood from it's opposite side, "In mortal terms, good is relative. Absolute good is the ultimate good. Absolute good can be defined as being good for you, good for me, good for all, good for then, good for now, and good forever. Though absolute good is not attainable, it is a path to seek."
Here is how I see it being quantified, "Doing good can be measured by the difference in the positive and negative influence an action has on all affected, both directly and indirectly. It is this measurement I perceive as a computer algorithm."
These are all thoughts pulled from an essay I developed nearly four years ago called, "This I Believe". My intelligent and beautiful wife helped me with the words which all to often are not easy to comprehend. Words come to meaning through collaboration and revision. By no means is the following a final draft.
http://www.dogoodgauge.com/site/DoGoodGauge/page_contents/display/66
Don Wesley 50+
Here we are and more weeks have passed and I return to your first paragraph which is >>
"The decision in a case of justice may boil down to an answer of yes or no, guilty or innocent. Whether that decision is just is more complicated."
The family court system, I am arguing is bad; is bad because they issued no pot or stove to boil anything down. They were paid my total wealth [$600,000.00] as a deposit and never delivered anything. No pot, no stove, no back burner. In the Criminal Code of Canada that is defined as theft and fraud. Who committed the crime here?
It entered the court in January 2009; a computerized Court (Wow) It is now June of 2012. (Ouch) I am still homeless.
In 1962 I entered the same court [No computers] in the morning, and before lunch, a Judge signed a Judgment dissolving my 7 year marriage. The invoice arrived a few months later; $700.00. My wife at the time had committed the crime of bigamy.
I think this little story of mine is a very convincing argument, not acceptable in a court of Worldly Justice, but I have done my part. The un-righteous officers of this Court will have to answer before The Great Architect Above. I can see the lake of fire, where they will reside for ever and ever. I suspect you will find an error to point out that I have not proved anything.
Go in Peace.
Don Wesley [From the Silent Generation]
Scott Nesler
http://www.dogoodgauge.com/site/DoGoodGauge/page_contents/display/160
I believe such a tool of association could be used to motivate and educate the public in the field of justice. Participation is the the key to the idea. The idea of association could be used to tag the Constitutionality of an argument or to tag prior legal case decisions to an argument. It could also allow the public to tag various types of fallacies used by an author or a lawyer.
The University of Chicago has a website called Oyez (www.oyez.org). If I could acquire Oyez attention it might be possible to build off their data to create an association database for Supreme Court oral arguments and docket information. Lacking their support a group of dedicated individuals could reproduce the oral arguments which are in the public domain. I would also like to create a volunteer system to record in mp3 format oral arguments prior to the collection of audio recordings. Similar to how Librivox recruits individuals to records books from the public domain.
Such an idea of association would require little funding and provide the public an opportunity to hold elected officials accountable. Such a tool could motivate and educate the public through sportsmanship. A game could be created allowing citizens to participate instead of watch as idle spectators.
Bharath Kumar Kunjibettu 10+
A very thought provoking question indeed. Firstly we need to change the very way how court or law works .Atleast it is not so efficient in a country from where I hail from , where there are close to millions of cases pending in the Supreme Court and each case is dragged close to 15 years . The law is not given in a quicker manner . Some lawyers find loopholes in Judiciary system and exploit the client or work with a criminal and help him as well.
At the same time there are lawyers and activist who persist to go through the same judiciary system and bring justice to our country.It is mixed emotions when we see smugglers or criminals having last laugh in court rooms and the corruption already existing,also when we see the criminals being punished with a landmark judgement.
We need to reform judiciary system especially in country which has the world's second largest population
Hope this suggestion of mine has helped you in some way
Conclusion: Current law system needs to be assesed and loopholes need to be identified and corrected
Regards,
Bharath
Mitch SMith 50+
THe courts are flawed in complying strictly with the adversarial model.
The model assumes absolute emnity and will produce at least one loser.
The action of the lawyers is to ensure that they emerge as the only winner.
I have seen this in progress a few times with lawyers and Judge in close community pre-deciding outcomes and indulging in favour networks.
I have also seen that the primary objective of lawyers is to win - not for the client, but to humiliate the opposing councel. It is a farce - litteraly.
It was no mistake that many of the actors who performed at our local dramatic society were lawyers - honing their skills as falsifiers.
It is the adversarial system itself that promotes these shennanigans.
Unfortunately, anyone who tries to reform the process causes the legal fraternity to close ranks.
It is a very difficult question.
Don Wesley 50+
I already know it requires persistence to over come what is an evil system; of course it is a difficult topic.
They, the lawyers only look to stealing the wealth and splitting the proceeds, they don't give a damn that the victims lose all their wealth. It is not adversarial at all.
Remember, I am talking only about the Family Court System.
If you understand Zimbardo's hypothesis, you will see the evil, hear the evil and be heroic enough to publically call it evil. It is evil and you have a civic responsibility to say so. The lawyers aren’t gods.
Not to call it evil, lets the evil continue; hence we become passively evil. I have met many police officers who see what is happening in the court, confidently say “it is a crime, but there nothing they can do about.”
I am one of the victims who has lost everything, except the hope and intent to fight to my death. Younger men can’t afford to fight; they must make a living. I am in my eightieth year with nothing to lose. What income I do have they cannot touch.
Mitch, this issue is not unlike the Nick Hanauer's lecture; please dig-in and study this noble mission; it is doable. I am not looking to collect “thumbs-up” here; for me this is very serious work. While this conversation is short, re-read everything very very carefully and then let some unconscious cerebration clarify the problem before you come back into the next two steps of question and then debate.
Remember the TED Talk with the theme ‘
“That Justice is the opposite of Poverty.”
Brotherly love
Don
Mitch SMith 50+
In Australia, the family court took a major shift away from winners and losers in the Family court.
From what I have heard it is working better than the old civic proceedings that I was a victim of - just as you are.
I am not remotely interested in polite thumbs-up.
Yes - justice is the opposite of poverty. And couple with that "justice must be seen to be observed".
What I observe in your case is far from justice.
I am also a systems analyst. Today, I was queuing at a supermarket checkout in the megalithic chain that I helped to develop 20 years ago. And my ethic went back to the service ethic - why was this customer in distress? And why couldn't the manager of the store give that customer closure?
In my day - the customer always had egress to the management chain, but sadly, that company has departed from the principles I helped establish there. I asked the manager "have you no procedural path to remediation in this case? SHe said, NO - what we sell is not anything to do with us - the customer has to approach the co-brand. But, what they didn't know is that the product was a co-brand with a telco, and I also did telco projects. In my projects, any customer who fell in the cracks - no matter what, got switched directly to me - and I had the tools and power to resolve the discomfort, of who I saw as MY customer. It was MY project after all.
So I advised the customer to directly consult with the tellecommunications ombudsman - who is god in all things telco in this country THe damn staff had their hands bound in evil - as you rightly identify - it's the old excuse of "it's my job".
Now .. I am not permitted to quote anything that comes from religious text here - as we have observed. But you will know what I mean. And what is that? It is people ernestly "doing their jobs".
I might have extremely low EQ, but I get results in everything I engage with. I feel compelled to engage with your cause.
What do you need?
Don Wesley 50+
I have always rushed in to help those in need; a natural fighter for the victims.
What better reply could I get from you than your question "What do you need?"
We need to craft questions about injustice, and what can be done, to get a crowd growing.
Families are shamed by "Divorce" and will not come forward easily to confess that divorce is in their families. I was talking to three young boys at breakfast [all in their teens] who felt comfortable enough to openly say that their parents divorces hurt them deeply, and they felt shame. Think about the recent TED talk about shame; an epidemic of mental illness.
We need create a war cry against those who create man-made victims. Erhard a new found friend had a thought flow out of his soul "If we can't heal it, Clobber It." Like Paul, let our swords be our words.
The Governor General told them to Heal themselves. The wealth lost to our nations in is the billions; money talks; so did trains to Auschwitz talk.
For me it's 2:00 PM; time to get get some shut-eye.
Until soon fellow warrior.
Don
Mitch SMith 50+
We play the game.
Then we stop playing games.
That is where choice begins.
Not for us. But for our love.
And THAT is where reality lies.
You are far from alone.
I advise you to fall back on your friends - you have earned my friendship in a big way.
Between us we will chart a way forward for all who can be friends.
YOu are an entry - many will follow.
Don Wesley 50+
You are on the other side of this earth and I am filled with your energy.
I am inspired.
Don [From the Silent Generation]
Mitch SMith 50+
My own fight against injustice has been to opose the evil villification of the helpless conducted by my government for cynical votes. After fully understanding the situation and the system, I identified that the provision of psychiatric trauma therapy was urgently needed for those incarcerated in refugee camps. I had discovered that these camps were specifically set up to generate disfuctional behaviour - as a proof that refugees deserve villification and create an artificial enemy for the purpose of unity-in-hatred - and that the victims of that hatred would be helpless and voiceless.
So I resolved to give them my voice - I wrote to all teh ministers, asked activists to take up the issue, prompted social justice orgainisations and parties to gain profile through lobbying, and signed/distributed petitions and handed out pamphlets at election booths. 2 programs were enacted and put in place, and the fight goes on - we now have a billet program to remove vulnerable refugees from concentration camps.
In your case the system seems to be flawed in 2 ways - firstly in generating harm, secondly in not addressing that harm. There are underlying social structural flaws as well. E.G. respect for elders .. and, in fact, the entire role of the elder in society.
So: people, processes, and systems yes?
Let us devise the "solution".
FIrstly, the existing situation - what is the scope?
Within that scope, who are the people(roles/responsibilities)?
What are the processes - where are the hand-off points between roles? (swim-lanes chart).
What are the systems - software/hardware - laws/statutes/discressions .. courts/application of force.
What is the structure? (strategic/tactical/operational/financial)
From that analysis you will discover the pressure points and what is supporting the whole thing. First hit the weakest point
Don Wesley 50+
For me it is important to stay with the purpose of clarifying the Idea, before firming up the Question of what to do. I am resisting to go there at the moment. You have and that is good and that is how we learn from one another. Before acting, Prudence. Now enjoy the sounds of silence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BvsX03LOMhI
Mitch SMith 50+
Comparing your quest with my own reveals a pattern.
The shape of evil becomes clearer.
The manufacture of harm is induced on the helpless and the voiceless through ignorance and design.
That leaves 4 things to do in 2 categories:
1. The branch - help for the helpless and a voice for the voiceless.
2. The root - light so the ignorant can see, and light so the design is revealed.
Top down and botom up.
Don Wesley 50+
But even more pressing and urgent, than creating a new system design, we must "reveal the evil system and those responsible" for having kept it out of the light. They must be seen by all for the evil they have done; this requires a true-story. Second, we must help those innocent victims of shame get well enough to tell their stories. Third, those evil doers must be brought swiftly to Justice and Mercy. The world must be told it OK to reveal evil. To do all of the above, we must “create a compelling story of good over evil; of light over darkness. It is a story often told over thousands of years. The Volumes of Sacred Laws, like the Bible are the big examples. Mitch, our responsible listeners don’t want lessons about individuals and their qualifications; they want victorious stories with thousands of heroes leading the gathering crowds. We must be prepared to reveal these stories before those shameful evil doers fill the media with misleading and perjured essays of ignorance.
---- The hope of such a new story in the making, which can be published and distributed at the speed of light, is what will grow the crowd. This story does not need intellectual problem solvers and lawyers and courts who rely on logic. We need to escape the logic which is cyclical and never ending. We a leap of intuition which only genius can bring. That genius is here now, that is the good news.
---- Until very soon,
Don [From the Silent Generation]
Mitch SMith 50+
Most people are good people. THere are few I cannot love.
All I can say here is:
Funding and facebook.
THe prototype is the first instance when teh brain truly gets engaged .. it's important, it is not the final plan.
Don Wesley 50+
I am risking a reply, because I may be connecting the dots and those missing into a wrong picture. I would say it is the eyes into the mind and soul, [that needs the light to see the evil] that controls the brain.
I see little difficulty to create a new "apps" to quality control the courts. Before being engaged we need the approbation of the owners. We the citizens of our nations own the courts. We need to reveal to the nation that it can and must be done to have victory over evil. We need a story and the story behind the story, to get an unambiguous reply, yes or no to the question; do you see evil. I believe we are now in the process of telling the story, and we still have twenty four days to do it.
Enlighten me Mitch.
Mitch SMith 50+
The house must be mobilised to present a reform bill.
That will be a party policy bill or a members bill.
Target a minister - preferably the one with the social welfare or health portfolio.
24 days is tight - what is the deadline?
The core issue as I see it is "the infliction of pain for profit".
To frame that into a yes/no perhaps you could ask:
"Is there justice in a court that commits crimes?"
or
"Should victims pay to be victimised?"
I will send some ideas by email.
(edit: the atourney general might be a good target)
Mitch SMith 50+
A pettition and email campaign would do the trick - maybe even a letter to your house representative?.
Don Wesley 50+
I ask you to re-visit one last time.
Don Wesley [From the Silent Generation]
Mitch SMith 50+
I feel that "freedom" is a measure by which you are allowed your full creative "agency".
Laws are supposed to guide us away from agency that is destructive.
However, there is little or nothing to guide us into agency that is constructive.
We as a people have chosen the only measure of creativity to be money.
Between law and money, we are blinded to the considerable freedom that is left out of the law/money strangelehold.
We should lift our eyes, that disregarded freedom holds more than anyone suspects.
Don Wesley 50+
Postmedia News August 14, 2011 - Governor General urges lawyers to rebuild public trust
Forceful governor general tells lawyers, ‘Heal thyself’
In stinging rebuke, Johnston says it’s time legal profession regains sight of justice, public good
“But if they don’t innovate, change will be forced upon them.”
http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2011/08/about-this-inn-re-issued-august-17-2011.html
Don Wesley 50+
"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people."
I feel we are truly clarifying the idea so far. My thanks to all of you.
Don
Don Wesley 50+
http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/p/we-need-to-expose-crime-being-commited.html
Don Wesley 50+
“I have been impressed by the fact that the stern integrity of our fathers has been gradually weakened, and in many cases has entirely disappeared. Occupations and pleasures which in their days, would have been regarded as wrong are without hesitation indulged in. In business, profit is the first consideration, and little thought is given to the moral character of the transactions.
Indeed, wilful fraud and deliberate crime have been frequently discovered and exposed.”
These words were written May 28, 1925 by Josiah Wood. He was a member of the Canadian Senate.
Don Wesley 50+
"I am a victim of a divorce motion and have lost all my wealth.”
http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/p/inn-justice.html
Don Wesley 50+
http://innjustice.blogspot.ca/2011/08/blog-post.html
Don Wesley 50+
What is the cost of a divorce; for many in the middle class it is their entire wealth.
Do you find this immoral?
Kris Rosvold
Thanks for the thoughtfulness. I'm not sure what the answer is but I do agree that we as a society (in the US...and the world for that matter) have become complacent. I do see the seeds of a sea-change happening...Much as we had in the 1960s. Artists are becoming involved and the "kids" are waking up to the fact that if they don't join-up and sound off we ALL lose. It's going to be a close race between good and evil because we've already lost the fact of our civil liberties through the Patriot act and now NDDA, but I still have a modicum of hope for us. The battle is either going to be easier than I thought possible or worse than I had hoped... It's too early to know yet but the next election will tell. Pray for us ALL.
Don Wesley 50+
I value your explanation
Peace be with you
Don