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Are You a Human or a Monkey? What Do You think?
According to Darwins timeline of human evolution I may claim that We are monkeys, Can You give scientific proof that We are not animal species?
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Timo X
Adriaan Braam 20+
Part of the reason is that we don't know, or refuse to accept, what it is that makes us human. We are talking about two different worlds, environments. Everything physical can be proven physically, nothing spiritual can ever be proven physically. As I said these are two different realms. Our body is made of earthly, physical stuff but our mind is made of spiritual substance (which is more real than this 'cloudy' material) which cannot be seen with the eye.
That's why those that refuse to see the spiritual realm maintain that our brain is our mind.
It is not our body, or any part of it, that makes us human, it is our mind that lets us meditate about our thoughts and love them or change them.
It is because of this mind (or spirit) that we have free will and not an animal instinct. Everything we want to do we have to learn. We start with a clean (sometimes tilted) slate.
Don't get me wrong, I am totally for evolution but see it as an adaption process to the environment. An adaption, not a start.
Timo X
This notion is called dualism and the problem with dualism is that it does not explain how the one world can affect the other. Take, for example, the message that you wrote. On the one hand, there is the spiritual process of formulating the idea behind your message. On the other hand, there is the physical process of expressing it by writing it down. How are these processes linked? Can energy spill over from the spiritual to the physical world? And how would that relate to the law of energy conservation that we observe in the physical world? Furthermore, how does it work the other way around: how do the inputs from your physical sensory system reach your mind? Where is the interface between mind and body and how does it work?
I have never heard satisfactory answers to these questions and I am quite sure that they do not exist. Therefore, the only logical conclusion is that dualism is false. The only reality that exists is the one that we observe and experience. Neither our brain, nor our consciousness is outside of this reality. Our brain and our actions follow the rules of physics and are thus predictable in the sense that physics are predictable. The naive notion of free will, construed as an uncaused cause, is an illusion. So clearly, the idea that free will sets humans apart from other animals is proven wrong.
Adriaan Braam 20+
That connection or relationship or influence is called the "Science of Correspondences" and is one of Swedenborg's 'discoveries.
Would you mind Googling that? I'm going out the door right now for a long weekend. Sorry
Oh this is a great linkg to that as well
http://sites.google.com/site/liveitupspiritually/home/writings/DLW_DP.pdf?attredirects=0&d=1
Don't forget to open your mind
Have a great weekend
Timo X
Verble Gherulous 20+
But to answer the original question, yes we are animal species. Our bodies are flesh and blood and bone and made of the same compounds, atoms, etc. What is different is that we have a soul, which causes the self awareness that allows us to place a value judgement on what we do.
But in that aspect I agree with your original comment, that even to have the discussion is decidedly human. Jane Goodall had never told us that gorillas would ever go on Ted and debate whether they are distant cousins of humans.
Adriaan Braam 20+
But Timo, when you say-- "I am quite sure that they do not exist," -- makes this whole conversation useless to you. It is only meant for those that are reading along and have at least a positive doubt.
When you Google something you always read all the 110KK results??
This is the most concise information I can find, with a page or two on each aspect.
http://www.scienceofcorrespondences.com/animals.htm
--"The naive notion of free will, construed as an uncaused cause, is an illusion. So clearly, the idea that free will sets humans apart from other animals is proven wrong."--
I am always amazed how easily some will accept 'proof' when it follows what they love.
No one you interact with has any proof of what you think, love or are contemplating. The only way anyone may have some idea, is by observing what you do and say. Proof may appear a long time after, but there is never real proof.
If there is no such thing as Free Will, why raise a child? why have prisons? Alcoholic Anonymous? The 10 commandments? Why even have a Bible?
The bottom line between humans and animals is that humans can love truth for the sake of it being truth, and do good deeds for the sake of them being good (not to become richer, more liked etc). That's why humans can love their enemies and also do random acts of kindness.
Humans have been created in His image and likeness and since He is Divine Love and Divine Wisdom we have a will and understanding.
A will to receive His love and an understanding/intellect to receive His Truth. (the good conjunction of these two are called "the heavenly marriage."
What we love is in our will and what we see as truth is in our intellect. Both are combined into a relationship called rationality. This can be a healthy relationship if based on the right source and is in balance.
It is possible that we could regard a fallacy as truth and base our love on that. Every single animal is a portrayal of a human affection. See link ^
Timo X
I am not in doubt, but I am always willing to be proven wrong. Otherwise I would have said I am completely sure.
"The only way anyone may have some idea, is by observing what you do and say. Proof may appear a long time after, but there is never real proof."
This last sentence makes no sense on its own, nor in conjunction with the previous one. Observation ís proof and it can't get any more real than that.
"If there is no such thing as Free Will, why raise a child?"
You seem to imply that raising children etc. is pointless without free will. Firstly, I disagree. Secondly, even if we were to accept it as given, it proves neither the existence nor the non-existence of free will.
As to your link, the first sentence contends that "the natural objects of the world about us are images, or manifestations to bodily sense, of the spiritual things in human minds." This notion is called idealism, and it denies a mind/body dichotomy by placing everything within the mind (or spiritual realm, however you wish to call it). It is actually a form of monism, although very much unlike the one I am arguing for. As monism, it is quite opposite of the dualistic world view you displayed in one of your previous posts: " We are talking about two different worlds, environments. Everything physical can be proven physically, nothing spiritual can ever be proven physically." Do you now understand the difference between these ideas?
Adriaan Braam 20+
What about observing the setting of the sun?
"Every appearance that is confirmed as a truth, becomes a fallacy" ~ES
I mentioned proof of your thoughts and love etc. How do you know when someone puts a dollar in a collection basket if the motive is 'loving others' or 'see how good I am?!' One is loving the neighbour, the last is loving self. Two completely opposite worlds.
--"You seem to imply that raising children etc. is pointless without free will. Firstly, I disagree."--
Why? You say there is no such thing as free will. So there is no way to change ourselves, as a child or as adult.
Maybe we have a different understanding of what free will is.
Personally I think we use it many times a day by making choices. Adjusting our behaviour and changing how we react to the outside world, that being our partner or colleagues and many others.
--"As to your link, the first sentence contends"--
If you read the whole paragraph it may show that this is about the human (spiritual) relationship with the kingdoms of nature. How each life-form portrays a human affection or general characteristic of love. We can choose to behave or respond like a fox, cunning and deceiving. Our thoughts might also take flight like an eagle.
All this is different from our personal, human 'condition' in which the move of every single muscle (not a twitch) is 'dictated' by a love or affection we have (an affection being a small building block of a love we have). This can be to survive or express a love.
We see this whole natural world as an effect of the whole spiritual world, which is its cause.
Our individual situation is exactly the same, as our spirit is the cause of whatever the body does.
This book is about that Spiritual World. It may even have a whole chapter on free will.
http://sites.google.com/site/liveitupspiritually/home/source/TheSpiritualWorld.pdf?attredirects=0
Timo X
One should raise children if one has the desire to do so. The point of raising children is to fulfill that desire. Of course, this desire may be born out of more meaningful motives. However, such motives are not given by some externally driving force (such as god), but are constructed by people themselves.
If we do not share an understanding of free will, than this is because you haven't shared how you understand it. I stated that "the naive notion of free will, construed as an uncaused cause, is an illusion." Notice that I do not say anywhere that people do not make choices. That would be a ridiculous claim: I make choices every day and I also experience the volition that accompanies that process.
No eagles, foxes or any other type of animals are mentioned in the first paragraph of your previous link, I double checked. Although the paragraph's wording is quite confusing, it's first sentence is clearly arguing the exact opposite of what you are.
You say that "our spirit is the cause of whatever the body does." Sadly, but unsurprisingly, you still haven't answered my original question: what and where is the interface between body and spirit and how does it work?
In addition, I notice that you seem to (deliberately?) ignore all of my points. You told me: "Don't forget to open your mind". Perhaps you should pay more attention to your own advice.
Adriaan Braam 20+
This is believing the sun is setting and not that it's because we actually are the ones turning.
--"As to your collector's problem: you could find out someone's motivation by simply asking him/her."--
Why don't you believe what I'm telling you? Could it be because hearing someone say why they did something, is not actual proof?
--""the naive notion of free will, construed as an uncaused cause, is an illusion.""--
I still don't understand your defenition of free will either. BTW in the link The Spiritual World the writer refers to it as "free choice."
But my definition of free will is our ability to choose between good and evil. Our spiritual state is kept in perfect balance so our motives and deeds are our decision, in freedom.
We are influenced by heaven and hell and it is up to us who is winning.
--"No eagles, foxes or any other type of animals are mentioned in the first paragraph"--
You're right, it only said --"The natural objects of the world about us are images.."-- so I thought to explain it a bit more. When you read that first sentence did you look at the long (blue) list on the left with all the animals on it?
--"..what and where is the interface between body and spirit and how does it work?--
Great question, however, there is no outlet or plug-in spot. It is through influx. Sometimes a married couple can have the same thought 'pop-up' and start a similar conversation.. or say: I was just thinking that!!
As I said, our mind is love in the spiritual realm and that is received by our brain. Love (or our soul) is not something physical or a gland or other organ. To put it in perspective there is a small book The Interaction Between Soul and Body.
http://www.universe-people.com/english/svetelna_knihovna/htm/en/en_kniha_interaction_of_soul_and_body.htm
Timo X
I do not believe you because what you are telling me makes no sense at all. You could have clearly stated your assumptions and your reasoning, but you did not. You could have reacted to my arguments, but you did not do that either. Given your inability to make non-rambling arguments and the fact that you completely disregard all facts that do not fit into your extremely narrow world view, I am forced to conclude that there is no use and/or fun in continuing this discussion.
Adriaan Braam 20+
Added--
Just came across this part of the link I gave you earlier (a website I've never seen before)
this is very much about the Science of Correspondences, the connecting method between spirit and matter.
Hope this helps
http://www.scienceofcorrespondences.com/ch4.htm