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How randomness of a photon particle in a two slit experiment could explain the phenomena of Consciousness and Decision-Making
If we stress on the Thomas young's double-slit experiment in which we ought to see that the photon beam when passed through the double slit we observe the wave nature of the photon particle as we get a scattered bands pattern on the wall unlike the single-slit where we observe the particle nature of the photon as it projects a single band pattern, in this experiment we can see that the behavior of the photon as a particle or a wave is random and so is its position after passing the double slit wall. Now i would like to relate this to the consciousness, when we face a situation in our life, how we perceive or react is as random as the photon. So i would like to ask people out in TED related to the consciousness studies is that, if we work on the principles of "Orch-Or" theory that says that the quantum superposition exists till the difference in the space-time curvatures is significant. so when we think with our conscious mind firstly how we can relate different quantum state as different reactions by a human mind and how can we get a clarity in decision making when the decisions are in space-time curvatures very close to each other. Secondly, the "Copenhagen experiment" explanation of the superposition failing under observation would hinder our research of certainty of the photon's position, How can we resolve the randomness of the particle and correspondingly in my case the absolute truth (perfect decision for a situation) for the conscious human mind. An experiment by Roger Penrose FELIX states that an electron is present at two different location and by using mirrors we can get a single position of this experiment. But, How we humans can tackle the randomness of our conscious mind. What we need to practice to reduce this randomness in our mind. How we can have a definite answer for a problem in our mind. How we humans can be certain in our thoughts.
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Chris Kelly 20+
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Chris Kelly 20+
Can you name one thing in life that does not relate to or depend on something else?
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Chris Kelly 20+
Krisztián Pintér 200+
as of now, it is an open question whether randomness exists in the universe or not. but most physicists subscribe to the idea that it does. so if you know otherwise, time to tell.
Chris Kelly 20+
There is a saying "as above, so below" which encapsulates the law of correspondences.
Here is an example of one such correspondence as it relates to this topic of conversation.
The conversation's premise is based on a photon's "randomness" in relation to consciousness. To fully comprehend how flawed this is, one first needs to fully comprehend the nature of consciousness beyond the intellectual level of mind. Key: There are many levels of consciousness.
In regard to consciousness, just as with the double-split study, consider what Eastern philosophy instructs with regard to being mindful. When we are 'watching' our own thoughts, when we are 'aware' of the processes of our intellectual mind/ego, we can "defeat" (collapse) ego by facing it repeatedly. Thus, by 'watching' our own thought process, we collapse the "wave & particle" illusion as experienced via the intellectual mind and not only direct, but create our own point particle because as we focus on our thoughts consciously, we're focusing; creating a point particle ... like the wave, distraction collapses.
If we are not mindful of our thought process, it may seem scattered or 'random', but there's nothing random about it. Unfocused, yes ... random, no.
It would probably easier for physicists to accept this if only they'd realize there's intelligence/consciousness within every atom. The more complex the life form, the more concentrated its level of intelligence/consciousness.
Of all the life forms on this planet, the human being is unique in his ability to increase his own level of heightened conscious awareness, which is a meditative practice involving ... what? Focus? Elimination of the ego? Mindfully collapsing waves to points?
"How do we know that?"
We test ourselves.
natasha nikulina 50+
what we call 'rendom' is really a lack of information or a matter of ignorance. It is synonymous with :
we don't know, it is outside the scope of our models."
"... If one knew the initial force of one's thumb on the coin, its interaction with the air molecules, its reaction to the force of gravity, etc., the path of the coin would be predetermined from a unique solution of its equation of motion. Thus, one would know in advance if it would land head or tail."
But we do not know all of these details and in our ignorance it looks like random.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
natasha nikulina 50+
The classical coin-toss and the quantum double slit interference
experiments are explained using the involvement of the observer.
The results are unpredictable, but doesn't mean that "quantum processes are truly random "
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Chris Kelly 20+
Is it your contention that, because it is "widely believed" among physicists that it must be true?
By what measure do you define "widely believed"?
If they are not taking every variable into consideration, (and they are not), then they're using the word "random" incorrectly and in a misleading way.
What "most physicists believe" is influenced by their understanding of the brain in regard to consciousness; they attribute consciousness to physical matter, which is an erroneous premise to begin with.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
natasha nikulina 50+
Again, you are right, but not quite right :)
Bell's theorem disproved the idea of locality. What Einstein called ''spooky action at a distance '' appeared to be a feature of nature or cosmos
( order).
Random walk in quantum physics turned to be a new type of phenomenon called 'quantum walk'.
If you are interested you may check out here
http://thefutureofthings.com/news/7596/random-walk-in-quantum-physics.html
Krisztián Pintér 200+
if we subscribe to that, we should conclude that our world is indeed random. it is its nature.
however, arthur fine presented an argument that the measurements supporting bell's theorem might be flawed. if they indeed are, the bell theorem might be false, and the door is reopened to non-random models of the world.
natasha nikulina 50+
As it was said: we test ourselves ! It means, that we know intuitively what we need to be explained rationally.
"As above, so below" was said not by rational mind and not for rational mind, you can sense truth here and science could be very helpful backing it up .
What can you say about this mind blowing video ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfeoE1arF0I&feature=related
It reminds me the zen koan : is it the wind moving or is it the flag? The monk answers, neither, its your mind that is moving.
Cheers
Krisztián Pintér 200+
no, we can not sense truth. we can, on a level, sense our own mental frames. but we surely can't feel how objects work in the universe. the universe continues to show us how weird it is. in the universe, time is dependent on speed, particles can be two places at the same time, mindless processes create structure and things like that. our universe is queer.
http://www.ted.com/talks/richard_dawkins_on_our_queer_universe.html
natasha nikulina 50+
I don' reject your views :)
but
"...only logic and observations can tell true and false apart. so you can believe, if you want, that no reasoning can have any effect on me."
SOCRATES : What Plato is about to say is false.
PLATO : Socrates has spoken truly.
It is self-referential conundrum that shows the limitation of logic and reasoning.
There is no 'true' or 'false', but different descriptions of the same thing on different levels of understanding ,like Newton's gravity as a force and Einstein's curvature of spacetime.
The question remains though : what are the force carriers ? So, we are dealing with effect, having no idea about the cause. To suggest that effect appeared from randomness would contradict logic, everyday experience and yes , intuition.
"...no, we can not sense truth."
I can :)
And I am a perfectly ordinary human being, I can't know the truth, for you can't stop being hungry smelling the food. But such moments deeply colour the thinking and bring some clarity, the correspondences become obvious, and you start to see how everything, I do mean ,everything is connected. The very idea of randomness kisses you goodbye :).
BTW, no contradiction with science here, for randomness in science is defined as 'not useful information', hence it is not absence of order but absence of recognition.
How I can prove 'order' ?
- Quantum entanglement.( maybe:) Cause and effect is one thing, they are bound together and separated by by spacetime, which is 'samsara' illusion of the mind. Squeezed between cause and effect in no real space and time in its own illusion mind has invented randomness , funny, isn't it ?
And let's not call it 'debate', i don't state anything, we are just thinking on line and share our thoughts and I am grateful for your sharing.
Thanks !
natasha nikulina 50+
OK, Krisztian, as it was said many times: everyone is on his own path.
Good luck with yours !
Thanks for the conversation !
Chris Kelly 20+
Natasha,
When the mind is closed, the status of the door doesn't matter. Those who revere (and post links to) Dawkins are as rigid in their dogma as any evangelist ... there's simply no reasoning with those who fear changing their paradigm.
Ever wonder when terms such as "queer" and "random" have become acceptable as 'scientific' terminology?
In all my studies of consciousness, I've never seen it referred to in such intellectually lazy terms.
Peace.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Chris Kelly 20+
As a Buddhist, you should have some understanding of what constitutes "consciousness" so let me ask you two questions.
1. Is consciousness physical?
2. How many levels of consciousness are there?
Krisztián Pintér 200+
1. have no idea.
2. have no idea, but i'm almost sure the question does not make sense
however. as a buddhist, i'm aware that there is a thing called samsara. for simplicity, we can call it "world". samsara is the thing we see if we look around. does randomness exist in samsara? i don't know. it might exist. it might not. there are people who dedicated their lives to study samsara. they claim that things look like there is randomness in it. it is not sure.
however. you claimed that you know there is no randomness. so it is a good time for you to prove that. are you up to it?
Chris Kelly 20+
The ecosystem 'proves' the connectivity in life; the circular dependency of one thing to another. "As above, so below" ... what is true of the natural world is also true of the supernatural world.
When observing a rainbow, we refer to it as one thing ... one rainbow. We can observe seven distinct colors yet we also know it encompasses the entire spectrum of color. Still, we consider it to be one rainbow. The human body is like this. It is (seemingly) one body, yet it is made up of seven 'minds' ... seven 'levels' of physical 'consciousness' and three more levels 'above' us which is referred to as the Godhead. The trinity. The crown. These ten elements make up the sephirot on the human Tree of Life, Kabbalistically speaking.
Human beings are septenary in nature, as our 'being' is more than physical. We are energy beings and this energy has been discussed in every ancient scripture; it is the same energy which is measured and photographed by modern science.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
and one more note: i don't say there is no cause and effect. i say you can not prove that there is no randomness in the world. see the difference?
Chris Kelly 20+
The Vedas teach of something called the Chakra System. It explains the energy system of the human being. There are seven 'key' or 'central' chakras, aligned down the path of the spine. They are spinning vortices that energize and build the physical body. They are in direct correspondence to the rainbow, in that the indigo is at the 'crown', and red is at the 'root'.
This energy system is supported by another type of energy which have direct correspondence to the chakras. It is referred to as the etheric body or aura and it is this 'body' which we experience as our 'physical senses'. The etheric body is a subtle form of mass which is the subconscious level of mind also known as the soul.
It has been photographed using Kirlian photography. It has been measured via EEG and EKG machines. It has been measured by 'frequency' of Hertz as 'brainwaves'.
If you're standing in line and 'sense' someone standing 'too close' to you, it is this subtle body we are experiencing. We aren't being touched physically, yet we 'feel' or 'sense' the presence ... this is the sixth of our seven senses. Most people only acknowledge the five senses they can associate with the physical being. Many people experience their sixth sense without realizing what it is. More of us acknowledge our seventh sense by the word 'intuition'.
Like a rainbow, we have seemingly distinct levels of mind vibration which relate to colors which are observed as the aura.
The aura is a set of subtle bodies that completely surround and pass through the physical body of every living thing. Modern science refers to it as the electromagnetic field, so you know it's been measured. It's been referred to as brainwaves, and measured in Hertz. It too, is referred to as the soul, so you see, it is not a 'religious' connotation, it's a psychological one as it is the subconscious level of the mind. The mind is not the brain. It is processed through the brain, not generated by it.
Chris Kelly 20+
The fundamental flaw of modern science is in believing the brain to be a generator, when it is a processor. It received and transmits, but does not generate. Thoughts and emotions are generated by the mind, not the brain. The mind activates the brain just as electricity activates an appliance. Without the electricity, without the soul, the body of consciousness, the brain is a useless piece of meat.
If you understand the relationship between brainwaves and the 'measured' states of consciousness, (Alpha, Beta, Delta, Theta, Gamma), then you can see the relationship between the states of consciousness and their effects on the physical organism.
The Vedas speak of the chakra system, modern science measures it as the electromagnetic field. Mystics refer to it as the aura, Christians call it soul and psychology deigns it the sub-conscious mind.
It is the same elephant.
When physicists start to take ALL levels of consciousness into consideration when trying to understand how waves collapse when observed, then it will stop using erroneous terms such as "queer" and "randomness" to define that which is "structured" and "ordered".
natasha nikulina 50+
It so resonates with my understanding (!!!), though I don't know a half of what you do !
Thank you very much !!!
P.S. I think, science is changing and changing fast. "queer" and "random" are just middle terms between 'objectivity ' and 'reverence' , 'wonder' .
We are approaching the Age of Reason. I truly believe so :)