This conversation is closed.

Are we able to wrap our mind around infinity?

Infinity. It’s a puzzling concept. Is it real, or a mathematical fiction?
Aristotle believed infinity could only be potential, never actual. To speak of an actual infinity, he argued, is to fall into logical contradiction: “The infinite turns out to be the contrary of what it is said to be,” Aristotle wrote in the Physics. “It is not what has nothing outside it that is infinite, but what always has something outside it.”

Closing Statement from Mohammad Mohammadipour

Dear All
Thanks for your comments;
And, last but not the least:
Arisen to voiceless unattainable peaks
I meet no end, for all is boundless He,
An absolute Joy the wide-winged spirit seeks,
A Might, a Presence, an Eternity.

In the inconscient dreadful dumb Abyss
Are heard the heart-beats of the Infinite.
The insensible midnight veils His trance of bliss,
A fathomless sealed astonishment of Light.

In His ray that dazzles our vision everywhere,
Our half-closed eyes seek fragments of the One:
Only the eyes of Immortality dare
To look unblinded on that living Sun.

Yet are our souls the Immortal's selves within,
Comrades and powers and children of the Unseen.

Sri Aurobindo(October 1939)
Best Regards.
Mohammad Mohammadipour

  • May 19 2012: Hi, Mohammad !

    "...is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
    And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?"

    Infinity is a symbol and relevant to the mindset you bring to it .
    There are philosophical/mathematical/theological/quantum mechanical /poetical... and God knows how many 'ungraspabilities' of infinity. :)Sometimes description from one domain contradicts to another. Like here in your question ; 'sets of infinity ' ; it sounds nonsense for philosophical ear for these words being put together cancel each other out in a philosophical context.
    I guess, that made Voltaire so angry :)

    If you chose to explore the mathematical infinity I'd recommend you to get acquainted with Mandelbrot set, if you are not familiar with it already.The simplest algorithm for generating a representation of the Mandelbrot set is known as the "escape time" algorithm. I am not an expert, but I hope it will help you to ask 'the right' question :)
    As for Krisztián comment, you asked me to ponder, for me it falls into the category : sounds cleaver, but what does it mean ? :) Sorry, not my cup of tea.
    I like Daniel's "The line going outward towards the left ... comes back upon itself from the right...'
    It's great !
    I can't answer your question, because for me it is a 'wrong' question ( just for me !) It suggests separation/division, but there is no division between 'inside universe' and infinity. Any division between 'in here' and 'out there' is an illusion of your mind.To comprehend infinity means to be infinity, in a sense it means to seize to be conscious of your separate self. Mystics call this state of consciousness: 'be at the moment' . They say it is open to everyone. Welcome ! :)
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      May 19 2012: HI, Dear Natasha,
      To scrutinize, I would like to write the first question again:
      "Mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?"
      So, what is the problem with this question?
      Regards
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        May 19 2012: It is answered already that's it.....nothing wrong or right.
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          May 19 2012: Salim
          Mathematically speaking, there IS a true answer for this question.
          and the answer is crystal clear..
          isnt it?
          Regards
      • May 19 2012: Mohammad !
        I don't speak mathematical language. maybe there is an equation, which holds the answer to your question, I have no clue! :)
        Watch this video
        http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/fractals-colors-infinity/
        In my language : everything everywhere is doing the same thing ...infinitely.
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          May 19 2012: Natasha
          "I can't answer your question, because for me it is a 'wrong' question" Natasha
          "I don't speak mathematical language." Natasha

          why do you think the so called question is wrong?
          may be there is no problem with the question but it is not in your area of expertise.
          Regards
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      May 19 2012: Mohammad
      It depends on perspective....
      If you decided already to have an YES answer from all that's why you opened up the premise (in your defintion "question" ) ....it's not the place where you will get all "YES SIR" answer.
      Logically , philosophically many here answered "NO"
      Mathematically you got both "YES" and "NO"So you decide .....you are free to decide..... but repeating same thing again and again with out your own explantation or proof doesn't make your point an "infinite truth" (which is absurd).
      It's sounds just like preaching
      Kind regards
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        May 19 2012: Salim
        In a fair weather day, we may talk about the differences between a premise, a question and a hypothesis.
        My last question about Infinity was a simple clear cut question.
        And it needs a true answer; in fact we come up with the answer.
        To be honest with you, I have asked this question to shed light on your question.
        I hope it helps
        Maybe the concept of infinity is not in your area of interest.
        You may find some more interesting subjects.
        Good luck
        • May 19 2012: Mohammad !
          "why do you think the so called question is wrong?
          may be there is no problem with the question but it is not in your area of expertise."

          I emphasised : for me.....(just for me ).
          Salim is right ,It depends on perspective....and sure, Math is not my domain.
          You may put it in a less benign way :
          I am wrong for the right question ,
          I don't mind :)
          Cheers
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    • May 22 2012: hi natasha,,just wanted to correct something,,,when i say time moves backwards,,,all that mean is it moves backwards in space,,,our perception of time is as it should be...we look forward to tommorow,,we look back at yesterday...the only reason time oppoese space is if they both moved in the same direction,,,time in any part of space,would be constant and unchanging,,,time moves backwards to condense like gravity,,,by the way just saw your link on infinity,,will have a look now,,,my blog is dancingzerosofeternity...
      • May 22 2012: ,when i say time moves backwards,,,all that mean is it moves backwards in space,,,
        I meant the same. It's very difficult to avoid misunderstanding here.
        I erroneously used 'we' , I guess, it caused confusion :)

        Thanks for the link !
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    May 18 2012: Mohammad, I hereby honor your request for my reply to Krisztian's contributions herein. Having devoted as much time as seems prudent I have decided to let an honorable Frenchman from the past named Voltaire speak in my place. I think he would answer your question in the negative. Here it is:QUOTE:
    "The only way to comprehend what mathematicians mean by Infinity is to contemplate the extent of human stupidity.”
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      May 19 2012: Edward
      It seems that the concept of Infinity is a blind spot for mathematicians as well.
      Regards
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        May 20 2012: We all (even scientists and mathematicians) see through a glass darkly as the Bible says.
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    May 17 2012: "mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?"

    it is a more accessible question, but not easy. in math, there are objects of infinite size. for example sets. there are sets that has infinite number of elements.

    it turns out that yes, it is possible for a set to be infinite, and be a subset of another set. for example the set of even numbers is a subset of the set of whole numbers, yet they are both infinite. another interesting thing is that although one set is strictly a subset of the other, they are actually have the *same* size.

    it is also possible for an infinite set to be confined. for example the set of real numbers in the range 0..1 is an infinite set in a small space.

    but it is also possible that an infinite set is smaller than another infinite set. the set of whole numbers is smaller than the set of real numbers. this is not straightforward, but Cantor proved it, to everyone's surprise. since then, we know that there is a hierarchy among infinites, and this hierarchy has ... well ... infinite levels. for those who want to know more, i recommend to read about "cardinal numbers". kind of mind boggling. who said math is boring?
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      May 17 2012: Dear Krisztian
      Yes…thank you for your comment
      So is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
      And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?
      Regards
    • May 21 2012: Hi, Kristian !

      Is this what you mean :

      "You can have sets of elements that are Dedekind-infinite, which is when the set has a seemingly paradoxical quality, or has a subset of its elements
      that are able to be matched up on a ONE-TO=ONE basis to each individual element within the set." ( the emphasis is mine )

      And to simplify ...

      "This paradoxical nature of infinity can be illustrated with a hotel with infinitely many rooms, where each is occupied by a guest but can still manage to accommodate a new visitor by moving each guest over one by one to the next available room."

      This is a description I can relate to :)

      I've taken it from here http://www.infinito.org.uk/
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        May 21 2012: yeah, something like that. but that term "dedekind-infinite" is for mathematicians only. for the rest of us, enough to call it infinite.

        infinity has many weird properties. for example there can be so many guests, they don't fit in your infinitely many room hotel. there are infinites larger than the set of natural numbers.

        easy, you say, as the whole numbers (integers) are more. but no, they are the same. even rational numbers, those that can be written as x/y, are as numerous as integers. so we have the set of rationals, which are dense, meaning that there are infinitely many of them in any interval, and yet there is exactly as many rationals as natural numbers. all the rationals fit in your hotel. you can make your rooms have rationals as door numbers, and you will have all.

        the set real numbers on the other hand is indeed much bigger. so much bigger that there is more real numbers in any interval, no matter how tiny, than the entire set of rational numbers.

        how about wrapping your head around that? :)
        • May 21 2012: how about wrapping your head around that? :)

          Next + ultra, I've got the image ....it's you who must wrap your head around how to tax the hotel :)

          Kidding ...

          Thank you very much !
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        May 21 2012: jeez, tough.

        the thing is, if we tax the hotel at zero percent, the amount to pay is mathematically undefined. if we tax them at any higher percent, the amount to pay is also undefined.

        my solution is to set a fixed tax, or at least a tax ceiling and a nonzero percent.

        the state solution is to enact a law that require hotels to create subdivisions if the number of rooms exceed 100000, and do separate accounting for each subdivision. doing so, the hotel has the burden and the state has the money.
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    May 16 2012: If mind can wrap it up how it then remains infinity.....?
    Pondering about the main premise itself??????
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      May 16 2012: touché. the topic can be closed now.
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      May 16 2012: Salim,
      We can stretch our minds to infinity while trying to "wrap it up":>)

      Krisztián,
      That looks like "in the box" thinking:>)
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        May 16 2012: thinking inside an infinite box is not a limitation! :P
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          May 16 2012: You make a good point...but...I don't think infinity is bound by boxes of any kind:>)
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          May 17 2012: Colleen , I feel that's a good witty response of Krisztian........we need some fun even in the toughest discussion.......:)
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          May 17 2012: Yes Salim....I LOVE Krisztián's sense of humor, and it definitely is fun to have fun:>)
          Do you think this is a tough discussion?
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          May 17 2012: Colleen
          With my naiveness when I can participate in any discussion that's definitely not a tough one ....that's my measuring scale.
          Well being naive can join a heated discussion but not a tough one :)
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          May 17 2012: Dear Salim,
          I'm afraid I have to disagree with you....there is a first time for everything!!! :>)

          I do not agree that you are naive. You offer a LOT of insightful comments, and I LOVE the fact that you often say so much with so few words:>) Your kindness, intelligence, insight and sense of humor are appreciated:>)

          I have my mind well wrapped around that idea, and it is infinitely true...in my humble perception:>)
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          May 18 2012: Colleen
          Wow.....Disagreement also can be such Delightful ......???
          Your overly generous disagreement made me overwhelmly obliged.
          Have a lovely day.

          P.S. Sorry for abusing REPLY button of Krisztian.....as I had no option for the sack of continuity
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          May 18 2012: Honestly Salim, I sometimes feel naive at times when the conversation moves to science/math perspectives. And I also know that we are all different and have different information to offer:>)

          I believe we can maintain joy and delight even when disagreeing. This, to me, is part of the cycle of infinity. While folks are trying to understand infinity by way of numbers, which I respect and am interested in, I use a practical application.

          If we look at parts of the definition of infinity, we see...
          "Boundlessness; subject to no limitation or external determination; immeasurably or inconceivably great or extensive; being greater than any preassigned finite value;characterized by an infinite number of elements or terms".

          We can "wrap our mind around infinity" using an "infinite number of elements or terms", and I believe we are living the cycle of infinity HERE...NOW. So, I percieve the possibilities to connect with that theory in every moment of my life.

          Disagreements are often bound by limitations, expectations and external determination. When we bring joy and respect to disagreements, it changes the dynamic of the interaction, thereby causing it to be "greater than any preassigned finite value".

          When we bring this concept into every aspect of our life experience, we are living in, and exploring the concept of infinity. It is not "out there" somewhere...it is here and now....we are part of it.....we contribute to it in every moment of our lives. I understand that this may be difficult for our math/science left brain dominant friends to grasp:>)

          I am a simple person...uncomplicated...and I find joy in considering an "infinite number of elements or terms". In my humble perception, when we are only looking at answers in terms of math, science, or any other limitation, we are missing some of the important elements:>)
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          May 19 2012: Colleen
          I can't agree more (unable to give you delightment of disagreement , sorry :))
          In other post you talked about "exploring" mind....again have to agree..:D
          Without any comparison between the persons who said ......I try to use tonics which seems to be very healthy (to me) those are
          "Know Thyself".........
          "Stay Hungry, Stay Foolish".......
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        May 17 2012: Yes Colleen we can and should stretch our mind.......
        The moment that stretched mind wraps something called infinite that point it loses it's infiniteness.......:)
        • May 17 2012: Beautifully said. Salim !
          Everything that is named/understood automatically starts to lose its infiniteness......
          but...
          no matter how 'ungraspable' what you are thinking at the moment can be, the very act of thinking creates new connections in your brain and at some point it can make a leap.
          But you can't tell what you've got :)
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          May 17 2012: I agree Salim and Natasha,
          Sometimes, as soon as we (humans) think we "know" something, we sometimes stop exploring, in favor of thinking we "know". Personally, I like the fun of the exploration, and do not need to label or catagorize anything, thereby leaving an open door for an infinite exploration:>) I LOVE learning, and the one thing I think I "know" is that there is always another level of learning:>)
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        May 17 2012: Hi Natasha....
        Yeap I agree....& thanks for your compliments

        Well you are talking about the "Eureka" moment of Archimedes :)

        What you mentioned as the moment of "ungraspability" may also can be felt like moment of infinity.... thats my feeling.

        P.S. Sorry had to steal REPLY button of Colleen
        • May 17 2012: Hi, Salim !

          "Eureka" moment " has a lot to do with a 'leap', I guess :)
          It is a moment of integration; an act of knowing. Knowing has no voice for it is a kind of non-dual state and you need mind with its capacity to create recognisable patterns to 'convert' a flash of insight into symbols, equations, poetry...anything, that has 'extendedness' in Time.
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      May 17 2012: HI Salim
      i would like to ask a question:
      mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?
      Does it limit INFINITY1?
      Regards
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        May 17 2012: Hi Mohammad
        I am still pondering about main premise as I told earlier.....your this question is nothing different from that.....

        Logically when something can limit anything then that no more can be called infinity from that moment ..

        Please follow Krisztian & Colleen's post above......Colleen answered your this question replying to the witty response of Krisztian.
        Thanks
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          May 17 2012: Salim
          i should mention that,
          the reseach question has a hypothesis and null hypothesis.
          the title is a question and not a premise.
          regards
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        May 17 2012: In order for Infinity 2 to exist it would be necessary for Infinity 1 to honor an impossible boundary. There can "be" only one Infinity, or Eternity.
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        May 17 2012: Hi Mohammad
        Thanks for your teaching.....
        Despite I already have a dull idea of null hypothesis.
        However a premise may come as a question as well...
        That's my understanding, any concern about that? I am open please prove your QUESTION.
        Regards
      • May 17 2012: Maths isn't my strong point but mathematically it is possible to to have one infinity within another, the example that immediately springs to mind is the Koch snowflake which is a type of fractal. Here is the wiki link which includes plenty of diagrams and animations to help with visualisation

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_snowflake

        You can see that the inifinate perimeter of the Koch snowflake can be imagined within an infinite space outside the snowflake. With regards to the original question as well it is certainly the nearest I can come to wrapping my mind around infinity.
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          May 17 2012: Hi Terry
          i should really appreciate it if you could read Krisztian's discussion and answer the following questions:

          is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
          And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?
          Please add your comment on the top of the page.
          Regards
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      May 18 2012: mathematically there is only one infinity and if something has been ever equlled once to infinity, any other mathematical operation on that, with any numbers other than infinity itself is infinity. like, infinity + 1 is also infinity. and that doesn't mean, infinity is less than infinity + 1. this can be made more clear if you think of infinity as a constant number, if its constant its not infinity. infinity is never ending and with no boundaries.
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    May 15 2012: Colleen
    i think meaning will find its own shape in the minds' of individuals subconsciously through discussion.
    and this is the main resoan that i love discussions in TED.
    please write about me as a young handsome man from Iran, maybe a doctor in hospital.
    i am kidding..
    as far as i am concerned there is a book in farsi in the same area by the name of "Dastanhaye Shegeft"
    Regards
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      May 15 2012: Mohammad,
      I like discussions on TEd for that reason too:>)

      OK...you got it..."young handsome man from Iran...doctor"...I'll wrap my mind around that:>)
      Be careful what you ask for...you just might get it!
      Your profile says your expertise is linguistics, educator/teacher. Are you changing directions to medicine? It's ok....you can do that.....you have infinity to explore many subjects:>)

      What does "Dastanhaye Shegeft" mean? I tried to translate it on line, and couldn't.
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        May 15 2012: Colleen
        thank you Colleen..that is really kind of you..
        i am trying to get a PHD in the near future, a doctor but this time in Philosophy.
        if you could google the word, you wiil get the PDF format of book.
        it means Weird Stories.
        Regards
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    May 14 2012: hi mohammed, i think the term inifinity is relative. relative to how much our human senses can comprehend. our thoughts and intelligence are limited, infinity refers to a magnitude beyond what our human senses can comprehend. its not enough to wrap arround the whole concept of universe. our intelligence and information is very limited, considering the size of universe, but its evolving. earlier our limit was earth, we thought if we keep traveling straight earth would end some where. as of now we know there are plenty more planets like earth and galaxies like milky way, but still our imagination is limited with that idea. our intelligence has to evolve more to accomodate certain idea.
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      May 17 2012: Hi Pranoy
      how do you think about this quesion:

      mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?
      Does it limit INFINITY1?
      please add you answer to Salim's reply
      Regards
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    May 9 2012: The reason we cannot understand infinity is probably because our brains are finite. The bible tells us that we are eternal, spiritual beings. We exist for eternity, whether that is infinite time, or infinity is the absence of time, I am not sure.
    When you think about it, spacial infinity must be real. If not, then what is beyond the boundary ? However the concept is beyond our understanding.
    I go with the bible; it encompasses many aspects of existence which are beyond us, but it has changed the life of millions.Personally I am happy with the concept that we are eternal children of an Infinite, eternal god,& one day we will understand just exactly what that means.

    :-)
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      May 9 2012: Hi Peter
      Q1: concerning different brain structures and their functions, Is human brain finite?
      Q2; So, is it impossible to understand the concept of infinity?
      Regards
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        May 9 2012: Hi Mohammad.
        A1 I would say that the brain itself is finite. It consists of a finite number of atoms. The number of thoughts it can produce will be much greater; but as the life of the brain is finite, the number of thoughts & signals must also be finite.
        A2 I don't think it is possible for a finite brain to grasp infinity properly. Our being however includes a soul which is eternal. I believe this gives us a sense of eternity which often manifests itself in a sense of God. We also get a sense of surprise when people die, as deep down we feel that it is not 'normal'.

        :-)
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        May 11 2012: Hi Mohammad.
        My source is the bible. I believe that when my body dies, my spirit will return to the one who created it. When history has run it's course, my spirit will be given an eternal body to inhabit. Life with my creator can then resume throughout eternity. My new body will have similarities to my present one, we will recognise each other etc. , but it will be immortal.
        The bible also talks of judgements etc., but that is another; & rather touchy subject.
        I guess no-one knows for sure, but that is my sincere belief, given what we know at present.

        :-)
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        May 13 2012: Hi Mohammad.
        Billion dollar question. I guess God wants a family. Someone once said this world is like a departure lounge with two doors. We get to chose whether we want to be in God's family or not. His family chooses one door, the others chose the other door.
        That's my take; what's yours ?

        :-)
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          May 15 2012: Peter
          So, if he wants a family, he might have other wants as well?
          And, why a family, was he alone or something?
          I am afraid, aren't theses human wants?
          Regards
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        May 15 2012: Hi Mohammad.
        Yes these are human wants. How else would we understand ? I'm sure God has reasons that we are not capable of understanding. He came as a man; Jesus; to help us understand what he is like, but we have little idea of the totality of God, any more than we understand infinity. He is eternal, omnipresent, & infinitely powerful; a bit beyond our understanding.

        :-)
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          May 15 2012: Peter
          Regarding your prespective, how do you think about colleen's discussions?
          Regards
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        May 16 2012: Hi Mohammad
        I wouldn't want to put words in Coleen's mouth, but I can make general comments. I believe the bible to be trustworthy; so when I have feelings & experiences I will check them against what the bible says. Some feelings can be true, & others may not be.
        NDE's & OBE's seem to be quite common, & in general I would say they are biblical. We are spiritual beings who inhabit a physical body. It is entirely feasible that at times of trauma the two could be separated. They will be separated by death anyway, so a trial run is possible. I believe that our spiritual part is entirely capable of consciousness & decision making; maybe even more so.
        I agree with Ed on the "Lake of Fire" & such however. The bible is very clear on a judgement & a separation of believers & unbelievers. That probably doesn't apply to NDE's & OBE's , but will apply at death.
        Hope that helps.

        :-)
  • May 8 2012: The concept of infinity is problematic for humans because our understanding of the universe can only truly be grasped in finite terms, since we live in a finite world. This does not mean it is fiction--just that our "logic" does not reach that far.
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      May 8 2012: Hi Susan
      Do you think that we live in finite universe (word)?
      regards
      • May 10 2012: Salam
        I think our thoughts and imaginations has no limit and we understand the concept of infinity.
        Also I feel the materialistic part of our universe consists of limited and finite entities, dimensions, durations and forms. "Conceptually" there is no limits to these, however, "physically" they are limited.
        Therefore the materialistic part of our universe which consists of matter and energy is limited.
        There is a misunderstanding about space and time. These are concepts so they have no limit. Space and time do not exist physically. Dimensions and durations which are attributed to matter do exist and are limited.
        Good luck
        • May 10 2012: K Hamzeh !

          "... the materialistic part of our universe which consists of matter and energy is limited" ...
          by not existing limits.
          Spacetime is a by-product of our mind and the creator of the latter.
          Vexed ' Chicken-egg' issue.
          So... everything is infinite, but we perceive ' matter/energy part of the infinity as finite: our mind traps it in time and makes it 'be' in space as matter/energy.

          I could be wrong :)
          Cheers !
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          May 10 2012: Salam Hamzeh jan
          so, do we live in infinite universie(s)?
          regards
      • May 10 2012: Salam Mohammad
        I think space physically do not exist. This means that if there is no physical matter (like galaxies and atoms) existing, there would not be any thing. Space is just a property (or potential as you mentioned) .
        We wrongly consider space as a blank sheet of paper which exists without any drawing on it. Or as a better example, we use to consider the space as something like the surface of the earth, a physical entity which is finite. Then we look up to the deep sky and question whether that direction is finite or not. I may say that if there was a physical road (or ladder) to sky, it would be finite/
        So, simply the limits of our universe is defined by the matters (galaxies and spreading energies) which exist.
        I think the amount of matter and energy (in fact every physical entity) in our world is limited (finite).
        So the answer to your question is: please think over the meaning of the universe! Distinguish between matters and the potential of matters being far from each other (i.e.space). The distance between you and me has no limit (concept - our minds conceive this concept) but in the universe our distance is finite.(physical reality- our senses feel and measure it).
        regards
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          May 11 2012: Hamzeh
          "I think space physically do not exist. This means that if there is no physical matter (like galaxies and atoms) existing, there would not be any thing. Space is just a property (or potential as you mentioned) ."
          Q1: Do you mean that if X exists there should be some thing that is not X?
          "We wrongly consider space as a blank sheet of paper which exists without any drawing on it. Or as a better example, we use to consider the space as something like the surface of the earth, a physical entity which is finite. Then we look up to the deep sky and question whether that direction is finite or not."
          Q2: Who do you refer to?
          "I may say that if there was a physical road (or ladder) to sky, it would be finite/"
          Q3: By the word physical, do you mean perceivable?
          So imagine there is a way from Big Bang, to…and metaphoriclay speaking, your movement on this road is the movement of light?
          Q4: Is the way finite?
          "Distinguish between matters and the potential of matters being far from each other (i.e.space). The distance between you and me has no limit (concept - our minds conceive this concept) but in the universe our distance is finite.(physical reality- our senses feel and measure it)."
          Q3: Do you mean that universe is finite?
          Or there is only one universe?
          Q4: So imagine that you are on the age of maximum potential space? What is next?
          Regards
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    • May 22 2012: the mind is not infinite,,,if it appears that way,thats only perception...the mind has a start point in birth,,,and a an end point at the point if death...there would be no purpose to an infinite mind,,,the mind is a processor,,,so must be accessible,otherwise whats the point...our subconscious is the database that where conscious resides,,,where lost,and forgotten memories stay,,,amongst them is awareness focusing our conscious in what seems infinite,,only because of what we've forgotten...but the mind cannot remember or has no information before life or after death,,,that would be the soul...the brain decays with rest of the body....the mind is a product of both conscious/and subconsciousness...for the mind to be infinite,so must consciousness,,,
      • May 22 2012: I think any physical entity (like brain and all galaxies) is limited and finite.
        On the other hand soul is not physical and is not limited to laws of physics which hold on the physical part of our world. We are not able to discover the laws of metaphysics and non-materialistic part of our world. So when we use the physical parameters like time and space about non-physical entities, simply no physical limits may be attributed to these entities and thus they seem infinite.
      • Comment deleted

        • May 22 2012: creativity,,is accessed and improved mentally,but art students still study,,,psychology is studies behaviour and what causes it mentally,,,all they need is the mind,,,they still study...doesnt matter what you like to do,,,sure you could mentally analyse it,,and youd prabably,become quite informed,,,if you obssess with it you might become expert,,,but why would you,,,Einstein spent his life doing work,and wrote it down so someone could learn it quicker,and advance it...sir issac newton had no one to teach him the principia,,,he had to work it out from scratch,,,but he passed it on,,because he didnt want it to stay unimproved...ive been teaching myself science,physics for long time,,,started with analytical thought,but till i researched what i knew,,and had something established to base it,,,it was nothing more than idea,,,humanity has been around for a long time,,,before tv,internet ,or even radio,,,where people that wanted to explore their minds did with much fewer distraction,,,instead of spending years to learn what someone before you did,,find out what they knew,,,and use your mind to advance the knowledge...ten years later,,im still learning,,,doctorate would have take 8yrs,,,instead im in construction,,with hobby,
    • May 22 2012: the mind is not infinite,,,it begins at birth,and stops in death...wrap,,is not either though i do understand what you are trying to say,,,no begin,no end just goes and goes,,,but thats only relative to who is observing,,,from inside might appear as infinite,,,but from outside it can be seen therefore finite....many things are relatively infinite,,that does not mean they are,,,infinite,or infinity,is absolute,non negotiable,,,if in time and infinity is discovered where it end that doesnt mean it used to be infinite,it means never was...relative to us the mind can seem infinite,,but a tree can see us and our mind's entire time cycle from birth to death,,,the tree is not infinite either,,,time outlasts all and came before...time is infinite,,,for now
  • May 21 2012: infinity is more than a concept...the singularity of a black hole is infinity...time has been stretching back for nearly 14 billionb years...thats a line of infinty,,,infinity is missing thats all,,it has to be the or the universe wouldnt be the same...just that no one can find it cause it goes on forever...one thing i believe though is if we dont know where it ends,,how do we know it doesnt.....thats just thinking out loud though...theres nothing to support either way
    • May 21 2012: Hello John
      I would like to invite you to take look at my conversations about unlimited space and time.
      Regards
      • May 22 2012: would love to,,,
      • May 22 2012: where do i find them??
      • May 22 2012: sorry was typing reply as comments closed,,,so though id retype here...fist of all,,,nothing in the universe,,,is truly nothing,,,even empty space is something...our minds only understand the universe as required,,,in other words measurements relative to us....we cannot understand the proposed expiry date of the universe for example which is 1to the 100,,,thats 1and 100 zeros next to it,,,we cant understand it because we dont need to,,,if one day that became the price of bread,,we would adapt very quickly,,,according to accepted science the universe is expanding,,,but some particles and energy are not finite,,infact all mass and energy that are symmetrical have a conserved quantity,,that does not chance,,,that is proven,,and i could show you equation,,,but basically the reason it is conserved is because the laws of nature dont change,,,and without conserved quantity,,eventually one would outnumber another breaking the balance of the forces and youd have too much dark energy,,or too little gravity,,or might have too much energy,,,in chaotic frenzy...a better name for the universe is space time...both real,,existing,and supporting all...spacetime is the framework in which everything sits,,,gravity is caused by space time being stretched around mass creating a distortion or stretch artound the object that near by object fall into,,,unless they are havier then the opposite is true....the limits of space are predicted but unkown and unconfirmed,,,as with time...every time for example has a time before,,,even if there was no before,,that absence itself is time before time....all the forces are thought to have arisen from one during the big bang,,,and much could be said here,,but,its yet to be demonstrated accurately,,,and in time and some fine tuning it will be...as for the creator,,,your faith will find god not science...we could never understand or wrap our heads around god because god is beyond our comprehension...we only understand what is before us beyond we learn
  • May 20 2012: funny thing about infinity,,unless its related to space or time,,its nothinhg more than a concept,,,cause basically we will never find out,,,,not with mind,that will buried,,but the sole ..??not sure if have the authority to answer that...but name one machine that develloped consciousness...
    • May 20 2012: 'nothing more than a concept. '
      Indeed, it's funny !
      ' Infinity' is a mind construct, mind can not penetrate !
      Any ideas , why ?
      I have mine, but would appreciate yours first :)
  • May 20 2012: consciousness has nothing to do with science,,,or to put it in a better way no one knows enough to include it,,,again its ironic because we dont know anything else,,,which i guess could classify it infinte,,,maybe i can tell you in a few trillion years...i have my oipinion on consciousness and spirituality,,,but they are my opinions,more than just opinions,,,but they must come from within...if you believe in god,,he knows you better than i do,,.
    • May 20 2012: "i have my oipinion on consciousness and spirituality,"

      Could you share ?

      'but they must come from within...if you believe in god,,he knows you better than i do,,."

      I won't go that far to equate 'infinity' and 'God' , but I guess, they share the same 'location' - 'within'
      Would you agree ?
      • May 21 2012: cant just say you have your,,,and stop there...share...
        • May 21 2012: Hi, John ,
          Knowing, by its very nature exists in a way form.
          To fix , shape the thought , mind breaks the wave function and the wave/particle quality of a 'fuzy' thought opts to a particle, hence picks up only one probability from the realm of all probabilities of a quantum wave, traps it in time and makes it real, but not true, because you can't understand something without everything.
          Something like this....:)
          But the situation is not that helpless. When mind accumulates enough data ( fractions, patterns ) it can make a reverse leap to the wave.
  • May 20 2012: infinity is very real...if you think of time it can only be created by an event,or observation,,,basically if i clap my hand,i create time,,,fake time,but still till...there will time before the time after,,and in the middle when i clap,,is a third time 0..call both times,and the zero a wave,,on its own 0 is a wave particle...dont think of zero as a circle,think of it as empty...would it have a floor,,,not if its 0,,,its infinite because its missing,,,eternity is the small one,,,if you like streching a year over an eternity...do you think youd see it??if you look at this again youd see that infinity and eternity are both absent so why not the same thing??thats because eternity grows,,,so within it it becomes less dense,,eventually evaporating,,,(maybe) infinity condenses and the smaller it gets the denser...a black is an infinity,,,eternity is dark matterr/or space and its so light no one thought it was anything for very long time...
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      May 20 2012: Hi John
      Your brain-storm is an inspiring mess-discussion.
      But..i would like to extract some sentences:
      1..."infinity is very real"...Q: how?
      2...."dont think of zero as a circle,think of it as empty"…Q: did I say "zero" is a circle?..Q: why empty? Do you refer to a specific capacity? Is that the only meaning of zero?
      3,,,"its infinite because its missing",,Q: do you mean it WAS, and it IS not now?
      4…"infinity and eternity are both absent so why not the same thing"?....Q: why the same?
      5..."a black is an infinity"..Q: YES
      6.."eternity grows,,,so within it it becomes less dense,,eventually evaporating..
      7..eternity is dark matterr/or space and its so light"…(6-7) Q:I did not get you?
      Regards
      .
      • May 21 2012: the singilarity of every totality,,in the totality of every singularity???or is it just me that getsx toungue twisted
    • May 20 2012: "eternity grows,,,so within it it becomes less dense,,eventually evaporating,, infinity condenses and the smaller it gets the denser.

      Eternity = Infinity
      Eternity grows 'for the sake' of Infinity... so they are selfannihilating within itself , self consistent Nothing.
      Did I get it right ? Or at least something :)

      ".there will time before the time after,,and in the middle when i clap,,is a third time 0..call both times,and the zero a wave,,on its own 0 is a wave particle.."

      Could you elaborate on 3 time division ?
      Sounds pretty familiar thou...""Before Abraham was I AM."

      John ! Thank you very much !!!
      • May 21 2012: you got more right than most,,eternity doesnt really equall infinity,,,theyre two opposites,,,but in theory if you wanted to measure both,,,youd never finish,,,as nothing would,,,if one has no floor and one has no ceiling,,,and they both go forever,,,then forever is the same,in that its missing..eternity and infinity dont annihilate each other,,in fact they never meet,,when i say eternity grows it expanding,,as in moving outward,,dont know if it grows,,cause dont know where it ends,,.eternity stretches out,m,while infinity keeps getting smaller...look at 0.0000000....with every zero the line is streched if you stretch a rubber band,only gets thinner ,,,and the space inside that point of infinity becomes denser and heavier,,,the singularity inside a black hole is so small you can even seen it but because whats inside it has been squeezed so much it becomes so heavy light cant escape its gravity,,,for eternity think of the opposite,,ifn you had a chocolate bar and shared it with ten people
        each would get 10%share it with 100, you get 1% share the chocolate with a million..etc..
        now time..any event creates time,,i clap my hand,ive divided time in three parts,,tiome before i clapped time after i clapped and when i didso time is divided two sections divided by three points
        • May 21 2012: "...eternity doesnt really equall infinity,,,theyre two opposites..."

          They are not equal, they are the same, being opposed to each other ...
          sounds good, very good !
          Time and Space never meet, but they are bound together forever...

          You can't meet your own reflection in the mirror, though it mimics all your movements with high precision, it's you,but in reverse.
          And 'you' is always 'missing' , you fix ' you' by illusion.
      • May 21 2012: i hope i answered everything properly,,but you gave me three brain twisters at once,,,.impressive,,,if i went a little off track,,,happy to redo it...wont take as long thios time either
      • May 21 2012: eternity doesnt grow,,,ity stretches into space we cant say it grows because we dont know how big it is,,and its missing,,and eternity doesnt chance,,whatever i going to happen in eternityhas already happened,,because eternity is the absence of time and outside time space is missing...just got
        ab iam between i and b is the big bang,,,but there was only band i...not sure what you mean by 3 time division,,,is that for isolating higgs or(singularity of time)just underastood what you meant,,
        easy _____ to the left is time uninterrupted..a duality oif absolute singularity un measured..in other words its not yet time...say i clap the point of time at which i clapped isa now dividedsone of that time passed before,,and some passed after so on singularityof time becomes one before and one afterin the middle is zero,,,that i now...then you have 1_0_1,,if this is for dr hawking aswell..then 101=0 010=2 0011=01 1100=10,,,every singularity or quanta must be seperated by zero...and its only between two zeros we get 1..0 0 however is infinit so the value of zero cannot be absolute therefore 0=1-0=>0...also 0=-1+0.999...=0
        • May 21 2012: John ! Thanks for responding !

          Could you give me the link of the blog, you've mentioned ?
          Thank you !
        • May 21 2012: We go in time backwards. What we see as future is past, actually neither of those. The only 'real' thing is NOW, but it is not fixed it moves 186,282 miles per second.
          Or maybe faster.
          "... the value of zero cannot be absolute ...."
          for it is interrupted by NOW This is what we call reality. Can we say : if not the eye of the intelligent observer, the value of 0 would be absolute.?
          As it was said : let it be light !
          Does 1_0_1 mean, that only the 'reality' is not 'real' ?
      • May 22 2012: hi natasha this reply not for your last statement but the previous...i love how you connect between science,and philosophy,,,and i must tell you not so long ago i would not have been able to reply,,,youre absolutely right the mind does breakdown the wave particle,,,but its a lighjt particle,,,not infinite,,though we cant see through it...infity and eternity are missing,,,reason for theyre absence is they must be as their absence is what leave behind an infinite or eternal void interfeering with particles as energies...its the void left by infinity,and eternity that creates opposing energy ,,,and the opposable forces of the universe...not many in physics or science,,would confirm this with confidence yet...but i am certain,,,by reaserch,and observation that this is the case...and my aim recently has been to bring this to the attention of other ,with the supporting data to introduce it as accepted theory,,,and it will be,,i spent 10 years on it,,,but seeing the higgs /higgs field interacting with particles,confirmed it to me,,,its what Enstein reffered to as spooky action from a distance...very close to what youre saying,,,but infinity is what carries the particle not the particle itself
  • May 17 2012: Hey Mo.

    OK. Lets look at it this way. Infinity is an abstract spacial concept that we operate with that is based upon a false premise.

    If we go back to be marble example or better said, a sphere.

    Now, you say that the distance to the midpoint of the sphere is infinitely long
    and the distance outward, away from the sphere is also infinitely long. That the distance goes on forever. But these are false assumption in the content of the concept infinity.

    Our logical experience from our observation tells us that something here is not correct here.

    # The space "inside" the sphere...

    Because we can see the entire surface of the sphere ... Logic tells us that the midpoint of the sphere must be somewhere between a point on a dissecting line through a point on the surface of the left surface of the sphere, then passing through the midpoint and then passing out through a point on the right side of the surface of the sphere.

    Imagine that you form a ball of wax in a perfect sphere around a 20cm long string(segment of a line) Now when operating with your concept of infinity, the fact that the string passing through the ball of wax is NOT infinitely long as you can see simply because you have cut the string to a 20cm length. So, to assume that the distance to the midpoint of the sphere is infinitely long is a misconception. Your concept of "infinite" needs to be redefined. It is simply not true that the line from the surface to the midpoint has an infinite number of points along that line to the center of the sphere.

    # The space "outside" the sphere..

    Now the 2nd part of the illusion is this.
    It is not within our sense perception to see just where the string then goes when we extend it out of the ball of wax and out into "endless space", simply because we just can visualize where the thread disappears to.

    But similar to the example I have shown earlier

    0 ) I ( 0

    The line going outward towards the left ... comes back upon itself from the right...
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      May 17 2012: Dear Daniel

      thanks for your comment
      Regards
      • May 22 2012: hi mohammad,,youre not that far off with inf1,and inf2...keep in mind infinity in this context is absolute,,,what most regard as infinite is only relative to the observer...like any object,no matter how small,is not infinite because for it to be infinite it must be missing,,otherwise its observeable,therefore only relatively infinite...time however..keeps preceeding,,,if you could find first time,,just observing it would be an event preceeded by time,,,there you wouldnt have inf1,,and inf2,,,just infinity...infinity must be singular,,,if you could have inf1,,,and inf2 clearly defined they are not missing Therefore not inf...time is the only absolute infinity to my knowledge todate,,,apart from the value of zero,,,but that i disagree with,,,zero always equals>0 or
    • May 22 2012: hi krisztian,,,objects of infinite size mathematically are only infinite relative to the observer,,,as with most of what is view as infinite,,,very few apply as absolute infinites,,,time is one...as time must be preceeded by time,,and any event must be preceeded by time...even the birth if time is an event splitting time into before and after,,,one of my pet peeves is assuming the big bang gave rise to time,,,even if so,,the event itself,was preceeded by non event which is before time,,and if one went back in time to measure time from the non event,,,just observing,is an event preceeded by time...
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    May 17 2012: You're Welcome Mohammed.
    I must congratulate you. I have been around TED for years, & this is the most well run thread I have seen. Great subject, very polite & well run. I look forward to another. Well done!

    :-)
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      May 17 2012: To my dear freind Peter
      thank you for your kind comments
      Best Regards.
      Mohammad Mohammadipour
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    May 14 2012: HI colleen
    Thank you for sharing your unique experience.
    I should really appreciate it if you could explain more details.
    Q1: How did you find the information?
    Q2: Did you find some thing new and unrecognizable? or did you have all the knowledge implicitly?
    Q3: What about your consciousness? Were you able to think?
    Q4: Is energy a metaphor for what you were?
    How did you find your self?
    I think when we think about ourselves as X we are not X?
    We should be beyond X to get our mind around it?
    Kind regards
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      May 15 2012: Hello Mohammad,
      You are good about asking questions to facilitate exploration of your question:>)

      The NDE/OBE is not really so unique, as I found out from extensive research and exploration. There are hundreds of recorded cases throughout history, and scientists are now researching it.

      1. I'm not sure I understand your question...."How did you "find" the information? "Do you mean how did I interpret the information? I found it to be amazing, amusing, educational, and most of all, I experienced it as a comfortable "coming home".

      2. The whole adventure was new and unrecognizable for me at first, and even though it felt very comfortable, it was not something that fit into my belief system at the time. That's one part that is/was amusing to me:>)

      One thing I discovered with the review of my lives, is that I've had several lives. Reincarnation was NOT in any way part of my belief system, and now it is:>)

      3. The thinking and feeling features were way beyond ( more intense) than anything I ever experienced as a human. I experienced many levels of consciousness at the same time. I was aware of the experience I was having, and also aware of everything that was happening in the room where the body was. Although I was "unconscious", according to the medical model, I was actually much more conscious on many different levels.

      4. I'm not sure if the term energy is a metaphor or a reality. It is the only term I know, to describe what I experienced. I'm not a scientist....just a simple person who had this experience which felt very natural to me.

      My "self" was/is the energy. As I said in a previous comment...the body appeared to be simply a vehicle, and that is how I percieve it at this time as well.

      You say "we should be beyond X to get our mind around it?" Perhaps this is true...If we get "out" of what we think of as our "self" (the body) perhaps we can actually experience the true self?
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        May 15 2012: Colleen
        could you mention my name in your book, please
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          May 15 2012: Mohammad,
          I have no plan to write a book at this time. When/if I do, what would you like me to say about you?

          Are you getting any closer to wrapping your mind around infinity because of this discussion?
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    May 14 2012: Infinity cannot be grasped by our consciousness, but can be glimpsed by our unconscious.
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      May 14 2012: Agreed. I interpret "wrap our mind around" to mean complete understanding. I think that is not the same as your "grasped" or "glimpsed.
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        May 17 2012: Dear Edward
        i should really appreciate it if you could read Krisztian's discussion and answer the following questions:

        is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
        And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?
        Please add your comment on the top of the page.
        Regards
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      May 15 2012: HI Allan
      what do you mean by unconscious?
      do you mean subconscious?how?
      regards
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        May 16 2012: Hi Mohammad.

        Subconscious and unconscious are essentially the same thing. I prefer 'unconscious', because it is the term Freud and Jung used in their writing.

        Very loosely, the only way we can intuit something that seems beyond the reach of our consciousness (like infinity), is to use our imagination - by attributing possibility, shape, texture and personality to it, in order to make it acceptable to the part of our mind (the conscious) that demands something graspable - even if that something is symbolic or mythological. The unconscious can use symbolism and myth to bring the unfathomable and the mysterious to our consciousness. But they can only allow glimpses of what COULD be - not what IS.

        Here is my take on it, based on what I know, and what I imagine: If infinity is linear, it is also immeasurable and unimaginable - and I would say impossible due to inevitable gravity warping plus the limitations of that which is observable in the universe.

        If space time is curved, then what we imagine as infinity may also be curved - and therefore infinite!
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          May 16 2012: So, Allan,
          If space time and infinity are "curved", we literally need to "wrap around it"???
          Couldn't resist!:>)

          I agree with you regarding subconscious/unconscious. I believe we have many levels of consciousness, and part of the sub/unconscious is intuition/instinct. I also agree that our sub/unconscious is always working to help our conscious mind grasp things in different ways than are available to the conscious mind because of limitations.

          What do you mean by "gravity warping"?

          Edit:
          I looked up "gravity warping". I'm not sure how it applies to infinity...need to sleep on it:>)
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          May 17 2012: Allen
          how do you think about this quesion:

          mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?
          Does it limit INFINITY1?
          please add you answer to Salim's reply
          Regards
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        May 17 2012: Hi Colleen

        It is mass that causes warping. Massive objects can bend the fabric of space-time. The more massive the object, the more space time gets warped around it.

        I saw a demo of this by Carl Sagan on youtube, where a heavy ball was placed on a rubber sheet, stretching the rubber fabric down around it. Then a smaller ball was rolled onto the sheet and it automatically formed an orbit around the bigger ball:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-db4iC0aHw&feature=relmfu

        Although a crude two-dimensional representation of a three-dimensional phenomenon, Sagan's demo was good enough to help clarify that the universe (and therefore infinity) closes in on itself, due to the universe's totality of mass - so infinity as a linear thing is impossible - but closed, looped infinity due to gravity warping is actually possible.
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          May 17 2012: GREAT video Allan....thanks. It's a PERFECT way to introduce a right brain dominant person to scientific information. As I said, I explored the meaning of "gravity warping", on line, and was faced with complicated explanations and it got "curiouser and curiouser"....LOL
          I understand the term better now. I totally believe in the concept of infinity, and believe I had a peek at it. I just don't know how to explain it:>)
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        May 18 2012: Hi Colleen - Sagan was great, wasn't he?!

        I would love to know more about your peek at infinity. NDE's might give some answers to vexed questions about life!

        Regards,

        Allan
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          May 19 2012: Hi Allan,
          Yes...Sagan was great!

          I am glad to share information about the NDE, either here within this discussion if appropriate and on topic, or you can e-mail me through TED.

          Keeping in mind part of the definition of infinity..."characterized by an infinite number of elements or terms"....I believe EVERYTHING we experience can give some answers to questions about life...when we listen and evaluate information with mindfull awareness.

          Some other parts of the definition of infinity...
          "Boundlessness; subject to no limitation or external determination; immeasurably or inconceivably great or extensive; being greater than any preassigned finite value".

          When I suspend limited beliefs in preassigned finite values, it reinforces the idea that we are part of the cycle of infinity here and now.

          Many people are looking "out there" somewhere, for joy, happiness, contentment, compassion, passion, infinity, etc. etc.. Just look at many of the conversations here on TED!
          In my perception, we have the ability to experience all of this HERE and NOW, in the life experience:>) That was one thing the NDE reinforced for me.

          Humans sometimes spend a lot of time and energy worrying, speculating, planning for the next event in the life/death cycle...thereby missing the moment, which is always an opportunity to learn, grow and evolve. There are folks who assign value to THEIR beliefs, and sometimes try to devalue other people's beliefs. When we let go of our need to control, we sometimes get a peek at infinity as the cycle flows...unlimited....unending:>)
  • May 12 2012: Hello again Mohammad,
    I've been away for a few days so I will try to catch up on your comments.

    We take a pretty big jump from geometry to life after death... but I do enjoy both subjects very much.
    You really get right to the "point" don't you? "What happens after we die? It's a big question that would demand a new debate I think, ..... don't you?

    I can honestly say that I am quite sure that there is a form for existence for the human being after death. A form of an angelic nature. A spiritual being. Some may say that nobody can know this for sure, that it can only be a "belief" ... But I say that you can "know" that there is a life after death. A lot of people would just call it superstition. But it is one of the worlds biggest misunderstandings to think that mankind is "only" an animal that has developed out of the lower animal forms. This is a tremendous misconception that has got most of the western scientific world under a materialistic spell.

    I wonder what you think? Could it be that our infinitely small point "our brain" expands to become the infinitely large "cosmos" when we die.... That we .... again.... become .. "one" .. the biggest number One ... with the entire cosmos !
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      May 15 2012: Daniel
      "I can honestly say that I am quite sure that there is a form for existence for the human being after death".

      A form of an angelic nature. A spiritual being. Some may say that nobody can know this for sure, that it can only be a "belief" ...

      Why spiritual being? I am one of those people who are not sure about this.

      "But I say that you can "know" that there is a life after death".

      Yes it does not necessarily needs a definition.

      "A lot of people would just call it superstition. But it is one of the worlds biggest misunderstandings to think that mankind is "only" an animal that has developed out of the lower animal forms. This is a tremendous misconception that has got most of the western scientific world under a materialistic spell."

      There might be no conflict between all these.

      "I wonder what you think? Could it be that our infinitely small point "our brain" expands to become the infinitely large "cosmos" when we die.... That we .... again.... become .. "one" .. the biggest number One ... with the entire cosmos !"

      I think we will get rid of 3D word and its limitations and new limitations emerge?
      i think neither this life is the end nor the next one?
      .
      Regards
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    May 11 2012: In relation to limitation, something is always associated with two things, namely:

    - The existence of something, and it's limited because an existence of something is dependent on the presence of another existence.

    - The existence of what can be perceived of something (property, event, and the like), and these are limited because only a few that can be enabled from the whole.

    In relation to infinite:

    - The existence of something, and it's infinite because an existence of something is not dependent on the presence of another existence.

    - The existence of what can be perceived of something (property, event, and the like), and these are infinite because all kind of those can be enabled from the whole.

    Answering that question, then:

    For those who believe in the existence of which include our existence, the existence of any of us have always relied on a larger existence, so in this sense, we can not wrap our mind around infinity.

    Similarly, we can never be fully functioning to our potential, so we are also limited for the use of our own bodily functions (imperfect).

    We can wrap our mind around infinity only if it is compared to something else, who has more limitations than we are. This can be expressed as:

    - Our mind capable to infinite because, our mind is not limited by others & we can enable the potential of our mind is greater than the average other being, in general.

    Infinite is just as simple as not limited by something, potentially or actual. Outside this understanding, in my opinion, is not real.

    Understanding of infinity should be compared with anything else, without this, the infinite is meaningless.

    Less or more ...
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      May 12 2012: Hi Bernard
      You discussion is similar to Hamzeh's discussions.
      So it is possible to uniderstand the concept of infinity throught deduction?
      And, is this the only way that our brain works?
      Regards
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        May 13 2012: Hi Mohammad

        If we had been looking for a conjecture in the deductive and it does not exist, then we conclude that these allegations are out of the deductive.

        How could we be able to browse the entire territory of deductive to ensure things are out of the deductive (an impossibility). Deductive should be leaning to the selected premise of axiomatic truth, then if an allegation was not recognized, it is beyond reality and it's an impossibility.

        Is it possible to understand the concept of infinity throught deduction? Yes, but deductives should be constructed by axiomatic, to get a clear picture about where the location of the infinite is in a logical framework, so we get a consistent definition.

        Is this the only way that our brain works? No, brain could work as a receiver for interventions from the outside of our consciousness, so that we can quickly switch to (jump to) another search point of another area (shortcut) within logical framework to more quickly recognize whether a notion of truth is indeed within the logical framework. This makes the human being has the highest ability to be able to defeat the most sophisticated machines.

        This intervention also helped us to expand the building from an existing logical framework, by establishing connections to expand the structure of the logical framework, even beyond the logical framework that is in our brain.

        How can we trace the development of the logical framework? By expanding consciousness through meditation, and saw firsthand the structure of our logical framework and interconnected to logical framework from outside ourselves, so we know exactly the truth. Or by understanding of the working and how to use thought experiment & the subconscious. And we often label the results as creative thinking, intuitive, self-evident and similar to these.

        Less or more ...
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          May 17 2012: Bernard
          how do you think about this quesion:

          mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?
          Does it limit INFINITY1?
          please add you answer to Salim's reply
          Regards
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    R H

    • +1
    May 11 2012: If we could 'wrap our mind around infinity', then infinity would be finite. Pretty funny, huh? Sorry for the play on words. I just love science and math. We create these reason capabilities and think they explain everything in the universe. It's amazing to me that we have such arrogance (maybe if there were less arrogance, we could learn to get along better too). We've barely been off the planet, yet can explain the universe from here. "if we can see and measure it, it must be true! If we cannot see and measure it, it does not exist!" That's great for engineering, lousy for infinity discussions. Infinity, to me, is a concept just like science and math. Is our universe contained in other universes? Would that be finite? Are there parallel universes? Let's open our minds to the possibilities of infinite options and be free. Free to believe that our mind is finite in structure, limited to it's inherent capabilities, and the universe may have more to offer.
  • May 11 2012: Salam
    Question: "so, do we live in infinite universe(s)?"
    Last answer: "So the answer to your question is: please think over the meaning of the universe! Distinguish between matters and the potential of matters . . . . "

    My understanding of the universe is rather unfamiliar (needs to change our rational feeling):
    We do not live" IN" the universe! "WE ARE THE UNIVERSE".
    If we were not here, our (materialistic part of) universe did not exist. Of course even then there is "potential or possibility" of existence.
    I hope it is clear enough!
    regards
    • May 11 2012: I think, you nailed it " WE ARE THE UNIVERSE" !
      YES !
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        May 11 2012: Hubris? Ego?
        Or loose use of words?
        We are part of the universe, a very small part.
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      May 11 2012: Hamzeh
      So, imagine a child who will born 5 years later..
      Q1: does he know how many brothers he has?
      When he does not exist his brother(s) doesn’t/don’t exist either.
      Let's talk about the shared meaning of universe. It helps to shed light on blind spots.
      Regards
      • May 11 2012: Salam Mohamad
        Sorry,I do not catch your points.
        Are you replying to my comments?
        Regards
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      May 14 2012: K Hamzeh, Natasha, Obey,
      Are you limiting yourselves? In my perception, we ARE the universe, AND we ARE also a very small part of the universe. We are everything and nothing. The universe and the concept of infinity do not limit us. Our perceptions as humans are the limiting factors. When we try to label and define something based on information we think we "know", it is usually coming from our limited human intelligence:>)

      Good example Natasha..."You are not stuck in traffic, you are traffic."
      We can embrace either perception, or both...can we not? Each perception, is limiting us to a certain idea. Infinity is unlimited, so we can be everything at the same time...or nothing.

      I like to equate it to a drop of water in the ocean...each drop of water is important to the whole. It can be seperate, and/or all interconnected.

      Or electricity, which starts out as a powerful force at the generating plant, and is seperated into our homes as a less powerful force. It is all still connected, and yet seperates at different junctures. That is how I percieve our bodies...as powered by energy which is seperate AND all interconnected:>)

      To me, this seems consistant with Aristotle's quote, which Mohammad offers in the introduction to this discussion... “It is not what has nothing outside it that is infinite, but what always has something outside it.”
      • May 15 2012: Hi, Colleen !

        " We are the universe " vision has nothing to do with limitation,
        but has a lot to do with the quantum description of the world where each electron could be precisely the same one.

        Anyway, thanks for your concern ! :)
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          May 15 2012: Hi Natasha,
          I believe that any perception can involve limitation...or not. And to me, you are all expressing perceptions in the comments above. "WE ARE THE UNIVERSE" ......
          "We are part of the universe, a very small part".... "You are not stuck in traffic, you are traffic" are all perceptions in my perception!

          I'm not "concerned"...simply participating in the discussion as I understand it. I didn't see anything about "quantum description", or "electrons" in the previous comments, and if I did, I probably would not have entered the discussion, because you probably KNOW by now that I am lacking in scientific description!!! LOL:>)

          That being said, however, I agree that "each electron could be precisely the same one", which is what I touch upon with my comment..." I percieve our bodies...as powered by energy which is seperate AND all interconnected":>)
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          May 17 2012: Dear Natasha
          i should really appreciate it if you could read Krisztian's discussion and answer the following questions:

          is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
          And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?
          Please add your comment on the top of the page.
          Regards
      • May 15 2012: Hi, Colleen !

        Frankly , I don't see anything wrong with 'being concerned '
        But if I hurt you in any way, I am sorry !
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          May 15 2012: I don't see anything wrong with being concerned either Natasha, and no, I do not feel hurt in any way...simply participating in the discussion, as I said:>)
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    May 10 2012: The concept of existence without the characteristics of quantifiability, or measurability, does not compute using human software (aka wetware). The God is of the Holy Bible describes Himself as infinite, eternal and unchangeable. So, His ways are not man's ways. He can say things like, "Before Abraham was I AM." and it makes sense. The Designer of our brains did not include the algorithm for infinity so your answer is "No".
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      May 11 2012: Hi Edward
      Q: what happens after we die?
      Regards
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        May 11 2012: Every human being has, or will experience one of two fates when their flesh dies. Some will be cast into what the Holy Bible calls the Lake of Fire where they will remain so long as Time exists. From this unspeakably horrible place there is no hope of resurrection. All others will enter in to perfect peace and rest in the presence of God where they will enjoy ever-increasing joy free from the tyranny of Time. They will know God and enjoy Him without end. So says the Holy Bible, the Word of God.
    • May 13 2012: Edward,

      If then infinity / eternity always was and always will be.... then aren't we also standing "within" infinity / eternity at this very moment....?
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        May 13 2012: The terms "within", "always", and "standing" are terms of quantification, in this case with respect to the Arrow of Time. Infinity and Eternity are not quantifiable, so, no, we are not within infinity, nor are we outside of infinity. We cannot mark where, or when we are with respect to infinity. Remember Daniel, with the infinite and the eternal, tenses are senseless.
        • May 14 2012: Edward,

          Don't you see that Euclidian geometry falls short on exactly this. When trying to come to a describing "geometric model" of reality, it does not make sense at all.

          Now what you are saying Ed is that when I draw a line on the paper, I can never reach the line because the number of points toward that line are infinite and therefore unreachable. But my experience tells me that that theory must be wrong... simply because I CAN cross the line.
    • May 14 2012: Edward,

      The "I am" is also within you. Your own self consciousness. This is also within the stream of time as we experience the here and now. The eternal is also here and now. It has to be that way. There is no division except the one created in your mind. The short lifetime we have on earth is just a fragment of the whole within the whole.
  • May 9 2012: I think we live in an infinite universe. And Peter was correct when he said we are eternal, spiritual beings.
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      May 10 2012: Susan
      How sure are you that we are eternal spiritual beings?
      Susan (1 day ago) "We live in a finite world, meaning it will some day not exist as it does now".
      so, Shall we immigrate to another word? or do you mean that Death is not our end? so, what happens after we die?
      Regards
      • May 11 2012: We will continue to live in a different state--one that is no longer mortal; we will continue to learn and progress. So, no, death is not our end--just the end of this finite existence. As for the world we will live in--this earth will also change and take on a new form--and we will live here. As for how sure I am? As sure as I can be in this world.
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    May 9 2012: thinking about infinity making me nuts!!!
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      May 10 2012: HI Chetan
      thanks for comment.
      Regards
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      May 13 2012: Chetan,
      You make me laugh!!! It CAN be mind boggling...can it not?
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        May 14 2012: Colleen,
        very true!!!infinity term is for people who are mind-bloggers!!!lol!!!
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          May 14 2012: Chetan,
          Consider the definition of Infinity: "unlimited extent of time, space, or quantity".
          That is totally foreign to us as humans, because we percieve ourselves as limited by time, space and quantity, do we not? So, we are trying to define infinity based on what we think we "know".

          There are some good clues on this thread, which might help imagine infinity.
          Pranoy Sundar says..."our imagination is limited with that idea. our intelligence has to evolve more to accomodate certain idea".

          Edward Long states..." The concept of existence without the characteristics of quantifiability, or measurability, does not compute using human software"

          Daniel Hehir..."If then infinity always was and always will be.... then aren't we also standing "within" infinity at this very moment....?"

          YES, YES, YES to these statements....in my humble perception:>)

          It does not help to actually try to "wrap our mind around it" because our mind is limited at this point to understanding the LIMITED extent of time, space, or quantity".....yes?

          Sometimes, to discover something that is beyond what we think we know, it helps to suspend the thought process that we are familier with. We cannot put a square peg in a round hole. It is difficult to understand "unlimited" with our limited thought process...make any sense?
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    May 8 2012: All forms are finite.
    Like you quote only potential can be infinite.
    Being can express itself into infinite forms.
    The first choice to be limits that potential as the first dot does to the painting in progress.
    Matter reflects consciousness and moves with it which we measure as time.
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      May 8 2012: To put forward an argument, some scholars mentioned that we are surrounded by infinite elements.
      How do you think about this?
      Regarding consciousness, do you mean that our consciousness is restricted to finite variables
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        May 20 2012: To be an element it isn't possible to be infinite yet to enter infinity any element can be the entrance.
        Consciousness is like the undifferentiated light by which we can see and that reveals any shape or color in its reflection.

        What is, is one. It is nothing that appear as all things. Space/time is illusion to keep track of change.
        Anything a moment in eternal presence.
        • May 20 2012: space,,is the decay of time,,,create by three singularities of time,,one being stable...its not an element,,,wierdest thing is we look a it before we see anything else,,,but we never see is,,,it is space,,and if we could see it we wouldnt see anything else..
        • May 20 2012: and by the way i couldnt agree more if its infinte,,then you could never reach it to know...thats whats i mean in my blog on dancingzerosofeternity
        • May 20 2012: "To be an element it isn't possible to be infinite yet to enter infinity any element can be the entrance."

          Beautifully said !

          Thanks, Frans!
  • Comment deleted

    • May 22 2012: the singularity of every totality,is the totality of every singularity...science is not for finding him,,if you dont believe you cant see,,if you do you dont need to see...
    • May 22 2012: people dont respond to being told,or judged,they just become more alianated...and that would be your responsinbility as much as theyrs,,,instead show them the beauty of god by being a source of nourishment,and comfort,,people who love you,will want to know what you love...all best mate...
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    May 22 2012: I can't. I can't even really understand the meaning of a billion or a trillion.
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      May 22 2012: relax, nobody can. in fact, i think the limit is more likely around hundred thousand.
    • May 22 2012: the best picture i can paint is using pennies,,,put 4 school buses one on top of the other,,,then next to stack pennies to the same,,,height,width length,,,thats approx 1 billion pennies...times by 1000,is a billion,,,depends if tyres are flat though...lol
    • May 22 2012: but yes the bigger the number the less we really understand what it means,,,http://www.kokogiak.com/megapenny/nineteen.asp...good page to look at,,
  • May 21 2012: the mind cant be infinite,,cause it dies...did i just ruin it?
  • May 21 2012: you tell me first,,,
  • May 21 2012: they also share the same location with you...the singularity is from within...and god believes in me,how can i not believe in him
    • May 21 2012: As it was said: God is within.
      There is no 'within', but your 'within'. Nothing is external .

      "...god believes in me,how can i not believe in him "

      WOW !
      • May 22 2012: all existance is within time...and i do agree within is god,,,god is also without,he may be within us,,,but he was before us too...without external how would you define within..in the totality of every singularity,is the singularity of every totality,,,...the only within that is not external is perception...and even perception has external influence...i hope i understood...science and philosophy,,,my favourites,,, precisely general,and generally precise... i dont think i fully get what you meant,,,let me know...
  • May 21 2012: also if you make sense of this,,you can make sense of sapce...look for every meaning of the words,,,theyre the only ones that work..keep thinking of zero,,,youde be amazed how much it can help you understand
  • May 21 2012: not sure what you mean by spontaneous,,,i might not do my homework before every question,,but thats because id done that previously...if im unsure or offering an opinion id tell you first,,,but sometimes with this subject matter,,it very hard to find the right word,,,thats why most physics is expressed in equation..ive spend many years learning about time space and the universe,,,ive develloped a good understanding of it,,,if you read my blog about the totality of singularitry two line within in took me around a week to organise the words in order,,,to find the words took forever,,,try repeating the sequence in order a couplde of times from memory,,,tell me how you go,,,i still stuble on it the words,,,but believe me when i say its a very good description,,,seriously love to know if you can say three or four times without reading it
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    May 20 2012: Dear John
    are you fine?
    Honestly, I like your discussion...
    But, I am afraid do you write spontaneously?
    Regards
  • Comment deleted

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    May 18 2012: Hi Mohammad

    Previous http://www.ted.com/conversations/11315/are_we_able_to_wrap_our_mind_a.html?c=464603

    as you replied: {is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
    And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?}

    Already read what you've pointed, thank you

    is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity? I replaced with: is it possible to find sets that "limiting something" of "another that being limited" inside (by) something that covers all of their elements ? Yes. It's like a function y=f(x) as infinite (not limited by) its limit of a function itself.

    And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)? I replaced with: And now, is it possible to find numbers (set) that is infinite (not limited by) subset (there is no other choice) of (within) universes (something) that infinite (covers numbers) inside (by) a universe (imagining or thinking) that infinite (as far as our own knowledge) ? Yes, and the number is anything we could imagine or think of about a number, that would be the answer for this question.

    Less or more ...
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    May 17 2012: Mohammad,
    Within the human mind, there are a set number of brain cells, neurons, and neural connections. As an individual, we have a limited capacity for thought. There may be an infinite number of ways starting out how our neural map can turn out as we grow, but as we grow, that neural map starts to become hard-wired. When we get older, it becomes harder to change the way we think because we have created reference points that help us make sense of the world we live in.

    This being said, we can transcend our minds through meditation in which we come to communicate with a higher mind. This is the place of intuition. The higher mind is commonly referred to in Eastern philosophy as the spiritual realm. As far as I know, it has no boundaries. Is it infinite, quite possibly. Can we comprehend that? That is a question that I cannot answer. I know that our world can change if we change our mind, so we are not limited to the world we now live in.

    There is talk of parallel universes. I don't know if they occur simultaneously or if they are the infinite number of ways that the universe could evolve. Possibly they may be both. I believe that the universe may have already evolved an infinite number of times, and will continue to do so. But I find myself limited in how deep I can go into that sort of thing.
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    May 17 2012: Hi Mohammad

    Previous http://www.ted.com/conversations/11315/are_we_able_to_wrap_our_mind_a.html?c=464491

    As you replied : {how do you think about this quesion:

    mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?
    Does it limit INFINITY1?}

    Infinity = unlimited = not limited by.

    INFINITY 1 can be found (as subset) inside INFINITY 2. INFINITY 2 is infinite because INFINITY 2 covers INFINITY 1. At this state, i'd rather call INFINITY 1 as FINITE (LIMITED). INFINITY 1 is limited by INFINITY 2. INFINITY 2 is limiting INFINITY 1.

    INFINITY 2 could be a perfect INFINITE as long as INFINITY 2 is the only existence that covers anything. INFINITY 2 = PERFECT INFINITE = UNLIMITED (NOT LIMITED) BY ANYTHING = COVERS ANYTHING

    Less or more ...
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      May 17 2012: Dear Bernard
      i should really appreciate it if you could read Krisztian's discussion and answer the following questions:

      is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
      And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?
      Please add your comment on the top of the page.
      Regards
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      May 19 2012: Bernard
      thanks for your comment
      Regards
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    May 17 2012: If you can consider the infinite possibilities encased in the human mind, and more importantly if you understand the meaning of infinity, then you will know that there are operations of nature,time,distance,space and light that are simply incomprehensible to the human mind.
    Humans, as individuals, and as a whole seems small and insignificant in the grandeur of nature. Humans may try to dominate nature with its technology and knowledge; but the fact that we are powerless against the consequences of our actions reminds us that we are simply human.
    And there is a lot that is beyond our reasoning.
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      May 17 2012: Dear Feyisayo
      .. You are right…hmm...Ooh my god, I have forgotten what I wanted to say. Sorry my Alzheimer…you know...this is beyond my reasoning..
      Aha...No problem. ..Take care...
      Regards
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      May 17 2012: Feyisayo,
      I do not believe that infinite possibilities are "encased in the human mind". If they were, then they would not be infinite...would they? In my perception (I think science agrees), the human mind is a "carrier" of ideas and concepts.

      I agree that "there are operations of nature,time,distance,space and light that are simply incomprehensible to the human mind"....at this time in our evolution.

      Understanding as much as we can at any given time is how we move forward with evolution, and understanding does NOT mean dominating. In my perception, it means working WITH those "operations of nature" in harmony.

      I don't believe that we are "powerless", and I DO believe there are consequences of our actions. It is by moving toward understanding as much as we can at any given time, that we learn more about the consequences of our actions. When we say we are "powerless", we become stagnant.
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    May 17 2012: We as humans should always be humble to admit that not all things can be comprehended by our brain.Infinity exists, but if there is something that can be fully grasped by the human brain,then it is definately not infinity.
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      May 17 2012: Hi Feyisayo

      "We as humans should always be humble to admit that not all things can be comprehended by our brain."

      it not a matter of being humble it is a scientific curiosity.
      We have talked about meaning making and "Fully Graseped Issue". You may check it.

      "Infinity exists, but if there is something that can be fully grasped by the human brain,then it is definately not infinity."

      How sure are you that if it is comprehensible concept, it is not Infinity?
      Regards
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      May 17 2012: Feyisayo,
      How humble is it to say or believe... "if there is something that can be fully grasped by the human brain, then it is definately not infinity". How or why do you know (or think you know) that?
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      May 17 2012: Feyisayo,
      Here are some insightful words, spoken by Nelson Mandela, a very humble person in my perception, at his inauguration in 1994.

      "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.”

      Whether or not one believes in God, it is the message that is important....in my humble perception. To explore beyond what we think we know, including and not limited to infinity, simply means that we are living the life journey to the best of our ability:>)
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        May 17 2012: Colleen
        how do you think about this quesion:

        mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?
        Does it limit INFINITY1?
        please add you answer to Salim's reply
        Regards
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          May 17 2012: My dear Mohammad,
          I think it is a GREAT question! Being a person who was told by medical professionals that I should not be alive...it's a miracle, I think/feel that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE:>)

          That being said, one thing that has always been elusive to me is mathematics. I am not enough interested in math to pursue it, so I am challenged in that area.

          There is a theory that anything can be solved, resolved or explained with math....is there not? I believe it may be possible, and not by me!!! LOL:>)

          I will leave my answer in this spot, rather than adding to Salim's reply, simply because it doesn't seem of much value in response to your question....thanks for asking anyway:>)
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        May 18 2012: Dear Colleen
        i should mention that your contribution is like a valid signature on this discussion.
        Best Regards
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    May 17 2012: the fact that some people claim we can comprehend infinity underlines the fact that they can't comprehend infinity.
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      May 17 2012: Hi Krisztian
      …"the fact that some people claim we can comprehend infinity"
      Q1: Who do you refer to?

      …"some people claim we can comprehend infinity underlines the fact that they can't comprehend infinity."

      Q2: Why not? Is Infinity something that you have comprehended it, and it is different from their comprehension?
      So, what are the differences?
      Regards
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      May 17 2012: We don't ever really know what another person can or cannot comprehend. Some people can comprehend the concept of infinity. And there certainly are differences of opinion regarding what infinity may be...or not:>)
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    May 15 2012: Edward & Natasha
    i am arfraid when we are talking about meaning making, how is that possible to have a complete understanding of variable X? particularly abstract words?
    and, what do you mean by complete understanding?
    regarding you definition of complete understanding, i should appriciate if you could give me a example that we have complete understanding of it?
    Regards
    • May 15 2012: Not to be too wordy, may I remind you about an old age joke :

      To bake an apple pie from scratch one should create a universe first.

      As in any joke , there is a part of joke, it is factually true and it has something to do with 'complete understanding ' :)
      or
      if you prefer a serious stuff :

      "Only he who understands the whole can also comprehend a part " .

      And you've started with the 'whole' :)
      Actually, it was Edward who suggested that you meant 'complete understanding ' , not me :)
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        May 17 2012: Natasha
        how do you think about this quesion:

        mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?
        Does it limit INFINITY1?
        please add you answer to Salim's reply
        Regards
        • May 17 2012: Mohammad !
          If infinity 1 is found in infinity 2 , infinity 1 loses its 'status' of infinity ; 2 and 1 merge and still remain 1.
          Infinity is undiminishable, by definition.
          Google 'Goegel's theorem' , it shows that, no self-consistent mathematical structure can ever be constructed to encompass infinity.
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      May 17 2012: The phrase "for all intents and purposes" is a password allowing entrance into the practical world. I can cite many examples of things of which we have complete understanding, IF you allow use of the password phrase. We "understand" apples, from their genome to their sugar content. We "understand" the function of hydration in cellular function. We understand a child's need for nurturing and guidance. We "understand" the effects of excessive exposure to sunlight. By comparison, we understand only the insoluble nature if Infinity or Eternity.
  • May 15 2012: Hello Mohammad,

    One or 1, can be seen as the largest number. Otherwise the largest number is "infinite" ... so where does this get us..? Just abstraction. Then we can just as well say that there is no "largest number"

    But 2 is the division of 1 ... two halves. As is all numbers. 3 can be seen as a third of one.

    One is the whole. One is all. .... everything ... all is one..
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      May 15 2012: Dear Daniel
      what about Zero?
      it is a new start..isnt it?
      regards
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      May 17 2012: Daniel
      how do you think about this quesion:

      mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?
      Does it limit INFINITY1?
      please add you answer to Salim's reply
      Regards
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    May 15 2012: @ Natasha--
    There is a subtlety in the wording of Mohammad's question. The phrase "wrap our mind around" seems to mean more than just a conceptual acceptance. It seems to indicate a deeper, perhaps complete, understanding of the subject. Using that interpretation I say the answer is NO. I do not say we cannot accept, or form ideas about, the concept of infinity. Thank you.
    • May 15 2012: Edward !

      If Mohammad's question could be interpreted as : " Are we capable of complete understanding
      of infinity ?", I would agree with you .
      Complete understanding is a kind of impossible condition for a human mind. Ask me if I am able 'to wrap my mind around ' an apple, my answer will be NO .:)
      Thanks for responding !
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        May 16 2012: I can weigh, measure, taste, observe, smell, process, destroy, consume and digest an apple. I can do none of that with infinity. There is no comparison between apples and infinity. For all intents and purposes we can understand apples. Not so with infinity. Thank you Natasha.
        • May 16 2012: You are right , we KNOW ABOUT an apple much, much more that we KNOW ABOUT infinity, but we have no KNOWING of either of them.
          This is the point of comparison and reconciliation; the essence of the message " one moment holds eternity " or 'hold infinity in the palm of your hand "
          or
          "Only he who understands the whole can also comprehend a part " .
          Thanks, Edward !
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      May 17 2012: Edward
      how do you think about this quesion:

      mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?
      Does it limit INFINITY1?
      please add you answer to Salim's reply
      Regards
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    May 14 2012: Mohammad,
    Aristotle said a lot of things, like crystal spheres holding up the stars and planets. He argued that it would fall into a logical contradiction because it could never be logically understood.

    I see infinity as multi-faceted. Space is infinite. Time is infinite. Possibilities are infinite. So long as there are infinities, there will always be new horizons to achieve. We cannot grasp the nature of infinity because the human mind can only compute finite concepts. We can ponder on the word, but I don't think we can ever grasp what it means.

    I used to think in terms of space as being infinite. If space was finite, then there must be an outer limit. But if there was an outer limit, then we must conceive of a barrier that only had one side to it. I have also conceived time as being infinite. If it were not so, then how could there be nothing before or after now, and why does now exist? If it were so, then where are we within the time line? Would we not forever be within the limits of eternity? We can only quantify time in terms of reference points. The big-bang is a beginning of time for our present universe. Can time exist beyond the big-bang? How could it not be so? And yet, we are incapable of determining anything outside of the universe we now live in because we have nothing to relate it to. What lies beyond will always lie beyond.
    • May 15 2012: Dear Roy
      I think SPACE and TIME are the basic parameters of our WORLD. Anything existing in the WORLD has dimension and duration.
      ( "in the WORLD" does not mean being physically inside some place called WORLD, it means that rules of WORLD governs on every matter and radiation existing.)
      Another unusual idea is that in the case that there were no mater or radiation in the WORLD, then time would not pass. TIME, similar to SPACE, do not exist physically. So we should not wonder about the boundaries of time and space. The span of time and space in our world is as far as the collection of finite masses and radiations spread. There is nothing over them in time and space.
      This view explains why non-physical beings like our spirits are not limited by time and space. Time and space are attributed to physical mass and energy.
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        May 16 2012: K Hamzeh,
        I agree with you that time and space are boundaries in our physical world.

        I don't understand your last statement...."Time and space are attributed to physical mass and energy".

        I believe that time and space are attributed to physical mass in that they are human constructs which limit us.

        I don't understand how time and space are attributed to energy. In my perception, energy is unlimited, and has no boundaries other than the ones we create in physical, human form?
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        May 17 2012: Hamzeh
        how do you think about this quesion:

        mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?
        Does it limit INFINITY1?
        please add you answer to Salim's reply
        Regards
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      May 16 2012: Roy,
      You write....."Time is infinite. Possibilities are infinite....We cannot grasp the nature of infinity because the human mind can only compute finite concepts". I agree to a certain extent, and as you say...possibilities are infinite:>) If we are using only the human, logical mind to try to understand, then we may not grasp infinity.

      You ask... "where are we in the time line?" "Would we not forever be within the limits of eternity?"

      It appears that you are trying to understand by putting the idea into a "time line" and "limits of eternity". In my perception, time and space are human constructs. How would it feel to suspend thoughts of limits and time lines, and go with your intuition/instinct, which tells you that these human constructs may be limiting your exploration?

      I agree that there are no limits of eternity or infinity, and we are experiencing the synchronistic cycle now.
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        May 16 2012: Colleen,
        An interesting comment.

        Our minds need reference points to focus on. Without these reference points, we don't know how to engage in creation. We build upon existing ideas to add to them. We must grasp the existing ideas before we can take them to new levels. These are all human constructs. To go outside of that is to venture into the unknown. I've been there before. I had to withdraw to a place I understood. But I have a sense of what you are trying to say.
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          May 16 2012: Roy,
          I agree that it is benificial to maintain certain points of reference IF we are trying to build upon existing ideas. IF we want to explore a different, or expanded idea, I suggest that it might be benificial to suspend existing ideas, at least temporarily during our exploration. It is difficult to move past existing ideas, if we want to maintain them as reference points.

          I agree..."to go outside of that is to venture into the unknown". Please tell me how you can explore new ideas if you do not go outside what you already know? This is a basic scientific belief...is it not? Exploring the unknown?

          You say you "had to withdraw to a place I understood". So, you are creating your own limitations as far as exploring the unknown?

          p.s. I'm more than half way through your book:>)
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        May 16 2012: Colleen,
        I know what it means to think outside of the box. I have used many devices for purposes for which they were not designed. I figured out other uses, much like Rube Goldberg.

        Yes, it is a basic scientific belief to go outside what you already know. I don't have a problem with that.

        When I say I had to withdraw, I was in meditation. I was exceeding the limits of what my mind could comprehend. I felt it dangerous to venture too deep in uncharted territory. I was warned by a co-worker who once worked at an asylum about not going too deep into the unknown. He had dealt with many who had gone too far and never came back.
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          May 16 2012: Roy,
          I'm aware that you sometimes "think outside of the box", based on your comments on TED, and what I've read so far in your book. That's EXACTLY why some of your comments surprise me.

          Like your comment above..." These are all human constructs. To go outside of that is to venture into the unknown". I think/feel that to explore outside the box, we need to venture into the unknown.

          OK...now I understand your fear, based on your recent comment. You think/feel it is "dangerous to venture too deep in uncharted territory"...you are afraid of going too far and never coming back...got it!

          Edit:
          4 hours later.
          I've been in the gardens, working, playing and pondering:>) Heavy winds and rain just drove me inside:>)

          When I said "got it" in my previous comment, I was saying "got it" that you have fears. For what it's worth, I am aware of LOTS of people who ended up in institutions because they tried to reach an altered state of mind with drugs. I have never heard of even one person in my whole life who ended up institutionalized because of meditation, and that doesn't really make sense to me.

          The state of meditation, in my understanding and practice, encourages us to be in the moment. "Exceeding the limits of what the mind could comprehend", does not fit with what meditation is meant to encourage, and it doesn't even sound like meditation to me.
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        May 16 2012: Colleen
        Wondering when last any innovation human civilization could come up with" in box "thinking ?
        Do you know? If so please share.
        If rightly have understood the tone of your discussion I agree with you that without having the courage of going into uncharted territory our civilization only can achieve a status quo nothing more nothing less than that.
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          May 16 2012: Hi Salim...nice to see you:>)
          I don't think/feel that new ideas EVER evolve with "in box thinking".

          I believe certain leaders would like to keep us all "in the box" of their choosing as a control mechanism, and there are always some of us who will venture beyond the box and challenge "in the box" thinking.

          I really believe that we are at a point in our evolution, when more people are moving outside the boxes of control, and beginning to evaluate information, and make better choices in the life adventure. What do you think about this idea?

          I agree that if we don't explore uncharted territory, we generally remain status quo.
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          May 17 2012: Mohammad,
          Mathematically, dividing infinity by two still yields infinity. Infinity has no boundaries. If we were to split the universe in half, there would still be infinity on both sides of the plane. I believe the same is true with time.

          As far as finding infinity1 within infinity2, I don't think it would limit infinity1 if it is a true infinity. I don't know of any actual situation that I could relate it to. If you have any ideas, feel free to question. I know that it has been postulated that subatomic particles may contain a universe within them, but I can't comprehend such a thing being possible except on paper.
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        May 17 2012: Colleen,
        When I was nine, I had an experience that I have shared before. That experience took me beyond what I could comprehend. At first it was very enlightening. But then it became so overpowering that I was losing any sense of who I was. I didn't feel that my mind could handle it. It went from the moment to far beyond the moment. The scriptures say no one can see the face of God and live. I feel I came dangerously close to knowing what that means. It doesn't mean that I no longer feel safe to meditate, it only means I have come to know that I have limits.
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          May 17 2012: I am aware of that experience Roy, because you shared the story in your book and in several comments here on TED. In reading all of your accounts, it seemed like a pleasent experience, and an answer to a question you had asked. Sorry it was an experience that was frightening for you...I did not percieve that at all based on your other comments.
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          May 17 2012: Dear Roy
          i should really appreciate it if you could read Krisztian's discussion and answer the following questions:

          is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
          And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?
          Please add your comment on the top of the page.
          Regards
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        May 17 2012: Colleen,
        The first experience did turn out to be a bit frightening toward the end. The other experiences were quite pleasant. I had learned in the first when things were getting out of hand. I haven't had that problem since.

        Something else to add to this topic. When I was in nuclear physics class and could relate my experience to something I was learning, I questioned the other students on the subject. They quite frankly told me that I was asking a question that was clearly beyond the capacity of the human mind to comprehend. They related it to a computer trying to divide by zero. If the computer didn't have a syntax error (something that tells the computer to terminate the computation, It would burn itself out. They warned me about not trying to do the same thing with my mind. Whether that would happen or not I don't know. But I remembered what happened in my first experience when things were going too far. Anyway, it's something to think about.
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          May 17 2012: Roy
          It is a choice, of course, for all people to decide for him/herself what is "beyond the capacity of the human mind to comprehend". It is also important to take care of oneself when frightened. Apparently, you DO think about it, and have made certain choices because of your experience and the warnings you recieved.
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      May 17 2012: HI Roy
      how do you think about this quesion:

      mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?
      Does it limit INFINITY1?
      please add you answer to Salim's reply
      Regards
  • May 14 2012: Salam Mohammad
    In this conversation I pointed out my idea about the space- time, as a WORLD of possibilities for existance, with its physical rules, without any limit (boundry, end, edge, etc. ) Our minds may understand this but our senses do not.
    The matter and electromagnetic energy which have come to existance are limited (may not be infinite), and follow the rules of the WORLD. Our sesnses and measuring instruments sense these and discover the rules of the WORLD. I call the collection of all existing mass and energy UNIVERSE.
    By above simple definition of WORLD and UNIVERSE , I conclude that WORLD is unlimited and UNIVERSE is finite. WORLD, as a possibility, is infinte, and the finite boundry of UNIVERSE is simply expanding at speed of light as the electromagntic radiations from so called big bang and later galaxies are spreading away from them.
    So my mind does roughly understand (wrap around ) both infinite WORLD and finite UNIVERSE !
    Also I understand that the CREATOR of WORLD and (later on) UNIVERSE has introduced himself to people through his messengers. Of course I cannot wrap my mind around the CREATOR !
  • May 14 2012: Yes!
    Sort of like being in a dream .... only your wide awake !! .. and everything is more "real"

    There are other names for this tableau. Some call it the Akashic record. Where everything that has happened within the entire cosmos is "written" in its picture form. To access this Akashic tableau is something that one can achieve through meditation. This is where prophecies have their origin. Prophets throughout the ages could access this tableau.

    When one has experienced its reality, one simply knows for a fact that we, as human beings, are in truth spiritual beings that survive physical death and continue to return to this earth again and again.

    There are books that are available that give a description of the meditative path to this stage of enlightenment. Although easier for some than for others, I guess one who has "had their foot in the door" ... as you have ... it should not be so very difficult...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akashic_records
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      May 14 2012: Daniel,
      Sleeping is a human need. It is something we do so the body can recharge, regenerate and heal. The energy that powers the body is not limited by sleep/awake, so again, you're talking about a human need/construct.

      It is sort of like a dream in that we can be in two or more realities at the same time huh?

      I agree that meditation allows access to information in ways other than "thinking" with the logical mind/brain.
      I also believe that information comes to us with intuition/instinct, which in my perception, are channels for universal energy/information.

      No, it's not difficult to stay connected, or reconnect, and it's quite pleasurable:>) One thing that helps, is suspending the thinking of the logical, reasonable mind process, and allowing different information to enter our consciousness. The information is already in the subconscious, waiting to be recognized:>)
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    May 14 2012: @ Colleen:Congratulations on achieving complete understanding of infinity. Two questions:1) What is an NDE?2) Can you stoop to share the information with a lesser mind?
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      May 14 2012: Dear Edward,
      I do not have "complete understanding of infinity"...only a quick glimpse of it. Sorry, I did not mean to project the idea that I had complete understanding.

      NDE is Near Death Experience, which has been talked about quite a lot on TED. That's why I didn't write it out in full.

      I do not percieve you as a "lesser mind" at all Edward. In fact, I'm quite impressed with your mind:>)
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        May 14 2012: Colleen,
        I said "lesser" with regard to understanding infinity, which I thought you said you did. So, is your answer to Mohammad yes, no, or something else? Thanks.
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          May 14 2012: Edward,
          In a previous comment, you stated...
          "The concept of existence without the characteristics of quantifiability, or measurability, does not compute using human software."

          I agreed, by stating...
          "I suggest that we do not have the "software" to be able to accurately "get our mind around infinity" under "normal" human circumstances. I had the opportunity to experience infinity with a NDE. So yes, some of us can "get our mind around infinity".

          Mohammad's question:
          "Are we able to wrap our mind around infinity?

          My answer:
          Yes, some of us can, to some degree, some of the time:>)
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        May 14 2012: Thank you. Can someone who can, and has, to some degree, experienced infinity share that experience with someone who does not understand? If yes, please accept my request for such sharing. I imagine that the vocabulary we use here on Earth might not be efficient for describing infinity.
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          May 14 2012: Sure Edward:>)

          You are absolutely right....I do not have the vocabulary to share all that I experienced. It feels like going to a different country, where I do not speak the language and am not familier with common practices in that culture. Then, coming back to my own country and trying to explain the experience! I can only explain with the language and understanding I have at this time, in this place. You are perceptive to know that.

          I experienced myself as a mass of energy...no human characteristics at all. There were no limitations....space, time, boundaries were non-existant. There was no beginning and no end. I percieved many different universes and life forms...unending.

          There was no communication as we know it with words and language. It was more like ESP...all knowing. It was comfortable, caring, accepting, compassionate, unconditionally loving.....it felt like I was home. It felt more real to me than the earth school experience.

          There was a review of my life experiences and I was an observer, as I mentioned in another comment on this thread.

          I saw my body on the bed in ICU.... not a pretty site at the time, since a horses hoof struck the head! I saw the body as a vehicle which carries me through this earth school, and I was almost totally detached from the body, and the ramifications of the near fatal injury. I had a choice to stay in that form, or come back to the body, and I sensed that either choice would be ok.

          The body was clinically hovering between life and death while the energy was out of the body, and I was detached from the outcome.

          I spoke about this at the Univ. for years, and discovered that people often have different questions and focus, so I'm glad to answer questions or discuss further. Let me know what direction you are interested in taking the discussion..... if any?
        • May 15 2012: Edward !

          The vocabulary we use is not even supposed to be "efficient for describing infinity".
          The poet Robert Graves got it right when he said : "naming is treacherous "
          But It is not the vocabulary that presents the main problem, but the time based structure of language .
          You said : "with the infinite and the eternal, tenses are senseless."
          I can't agree more !
          Language tries to built in time what can be 'known ' when there is no time.
          But .... we have poetry and 'fuzzy' language of the sacred texts.
          You've quoted :
          "To see the world in a grain of sand, and a heaven in a wildflower; hold infinity in the palm of your hand, and eternity in a hour."
          and
          "Before Abraham was I AM."
          These are the messages from/about eternity and your mind can get them if it is tuned properly.
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        May 14 2012: Young lady, how do you consistently avoid having a "Reply" button on your posts?
        Wow! You should write a book! What a dream-like experience you have pictured.
        I am convinced even more that the answer to Mohammad is "NO". In terms of earthly experience and language one cannot wrap one's mind around infinity or eternity, supernatural, paranormal excursions aside. Please do not interpret my remarks as doubting your experience. Thank you Colleen.
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          May 14 2012: How do I consistently avoid having a "Reply" button on my posts?
          Must be supernatural, or a paranormal excursion on TED......LOL:>)

          Writing a book has been suggested many times by many people. There are LOTS of books out there about NDE/OBEs....LOTS of information on line too...just google, NDE RESEARCH.
          Oh...BTW...OBE is Out of Body Experience:>)

          I think wrapping ones "mind" around it is the speed bump. When we try to make sense of it with the mind/brain/thinking process, we get hung up with information we already have programmed in the mind, and we try to "fit" the concept to what we think we know. We might be more successful trying to wrap the intuition/instinct around it? It certainly was NOT part of my belief system at the time, and I'm sure I would have had difficulty believing it if I had not experienced it.

          You've said it very well Edward, in several comments on this thread...
          "You must stop trying to quantify that which is infinite..."

          I agree with your statement Edward.

          I believe that suspending the mind/brain/thinking process (stop trying to quantify) may be helpful. This can be done with meditation, or any other way that is comfortable for an individual. The mind/brain/thinking process certainly is important. Maybe not when trying to imagine eternity?
    • May 14 2012: Hi Edward and Colleen!

      Nice to meet you again Colleen!

      Colleen is referring to a Near Death Experience.

      I would like to ask Colleen if her experience would confirm the idea that what is "spacial" here on earth transforms into a "time like" experience in a NDE. ... Time stands still (may we say 0 point or perhaps eternity..?) and there is only "beingness" or consciousness .... eternal consciousness...

      Many who have had a NDE say that their whole life passes before them as if in a tableau. Even down to the smallest details. This is quite a common experience that people tell about. Especially in drowning experiences. As you mentioned earlier Edward, the "I am" within your being here on earth, becomes then the "observer" of your entire life ..... and perhaps even previous lives...

      What do you say to this Colleen?
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        May 14 2012: Daniel,
        I'm not quite understanding your question regarding "time like".

        In my experience in the other realm, there is no time limitation, so I'm not sure what you mean by "time like"...help me with that?

        I found that what is "special" here in the human life experience, is intensified when the energy that powers the body is seperated from the body....make any sense?
        The human body cannot carry the higher energy vibration which is needed to experience all that is.

        Yes, I had a review of my life....of my lives, and I was an observer. And I agree Daniel that this is a common experience with NDE/OBEs. With the hundreds of recorded cases I read about, it was a common factor.
        • May 14 2012: Hi Colleen,

          Fancy meeting you here!
          As we have written to each other about these things before, I think I can say that I know what you mean when you say that the human life experience is intensified when the energy body separates from the physical body. Although I have never had a NDE or OBE myself, I feel that I can only relate to it theoretically .... sort of like reading a menu when your out to dinner. One can order from the menu all the food one likes but until one has actually tasted the food oneself, one is left only with an abstract idea of what the food really tastes like. I have been reading a lot about this energy body or "life body" or "etheric body" as other mystics and esoteric teachers call it. But to really really know what it is, one has to experience it oneself.

          I guess my question about a "time like" experience is in respect to the spacial relationship that a human life is transformed to. That it becomes spread out before you. That you can see everything that has occurred in your lifetime and you can "move" within this framework as a purely spiritual being. Sort of like looking at a picture or a painting on a long long wall.
          Now again, for me this is only a "menu" experience. Things that I have read. If you for example wanted to see what happened in your life on your 2nd birthday, you could simply move your spiritual being to that "point in time" where it occurred... sort of like moving your chair to that point in time on the tableau where that particular thing happened in your life. And this picture or display of your life is something that you can learn from and take with you as knowledge and experience in your later incarnations. Thus, the "I AM" that Edward is refering to is also the part of our true spiritual self that continues living in the "eternal" spiritual world
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        May 14 2012: OOPS! You edited your comment after I replied Daniel...nice to cross paths with you again as well:>)

        You added..."Time stands still (may we say 0 point or perhaps eternity..?) and there is only "beingness" or consciousness .... eternal consciousness..."

        Yes, in the other form, I experienced "beingness, or eternal consciousness".
        Again, time is a human construct and limited by human intelligence, so there was no perception of time. So, there was no perception of time standing still or moving...that's a tough one huh?
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        May 15 2012: Yes Daniel...fancy meeting you here....always a pleasure:>)

        You have done a LOT of research, and you seem to have a very good grasp of the concept of the human life experience being intensified when the energy separates from the physical body. We are then, without human limitations.

        I agree that to really "know" anything, it helps to experience it, and we can experience some seperation from limitations here and now. The way humans seperate themselves from each other, for example, is not necessary. We CAN open the heart and mind to recognize our interconnectedness and thereby get rid of some limitations. Many of the limitations we create in this earth school are self imposed.

        If we want to get our mind and heart around infinity, we can start here and now to recognize our connections, which are unlimited. We can transform life here and now.

        You write..."I guess my question about a "time like" experience is in respect to the spacial relationship that a human life is transformed to. That it becomes spread out before you. That you can see everything that has occurred in your lifetime and you can "move" within this framework...".

        Good perception Daniel, and we can do that here and now. It is not necessary to die before we review our lives, or before we experience the interconnected with other people, the earth, and everything we experience.

        We are living in the "eternal" world right now...in human form, which is part of eternity/infinity. It is one part of the whole. So, why are folks so anxious to see what is next? We have an opportunity here and now, and how we "spend" our energy while we are here, now, is an important piece of the whole:>)
  • May 14 2012: I suppose you could call it a new dimension---but that, too, is a rather finite term. It means we will not be mortal--no longer have blood, which is what makes us mortal--subject to disease and death.
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    May 11 2012: Currently 13.7 lys

    Most of us alive today won't get to see beyond that if probably never.
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      May 12 2012: Hi Ken
      How sure are you about this?
      Do you see beyond today?
      Regards
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        May 12 2012: Today is now, tomorrow is plans,so long as we are alive now we share the same time space until we don't,the only thing that talks of today is what we leave behind for tomorrow like these posts.

        One can go on and on about infinity but in the end it's just circular unless you can truly envisage blackness because that's all there is.All things in this universe ends.

        The rest is faith and belief.I suppose the true nature of this physical planes state is 3 degrees kelvin.
  • May 11 2012: Hello again Mohammad,

    The questions you ask are conditioned by the human condition of living on planet earth. Maya if you will. That we can build conceptual models with numbers and ask ourselves where is the biggest or longest are within the framework of this physical condition... if you know what I mean...?

    Take another example that I can most practically use the figures here on my keyboard. Rather small but just the same.

    Look at these figures below

    O ) I ( O

    Expand the O on the left more and more until it becomes straight on the side.... You have to expand it "infinitely" large of course.... but its really not that far away as you might think..... ;-)

    Is it still a circle...? Where did the closure of the circle go..? Or is the circle "open" now..?

    Does the "line" in the middle come back upon itself....? ..... somewhere...??
  • May 9 2012: Hi Mohammad,

    Aristotle had some really interesting ideas. I'm really with you on that!

    Have you ever heard of something called "Projective geometry" or "Synthetic geometry"

    It is a form for geometry that is no longer taught in schools. Although perfectly logical and amazing in its way of perceiving geometric forms... its not as practical as the Euclidian geometry we all learn in school today. We need to build houses, buildings and all sorts of constructions that need certain mathematical concepts that are easy to work practical with... concepts such as parallel lines.
    I don't have the time just now to go into it. ... but parallel lines, according to projective geometry actually meet.... yes.... at the "point of infinity"... think about that one..! This can be very easily demonstrated to be true.. just as we can demonstrate how the concept of "parallel lines" is "true"...

    Here is another short example. Think of a marble in your mind ... nowhere on the surface of the marble could be called "plane".... so now expand the marble...in your mind... bigger and bigger and bigger.... until the surface of the marble becomes perfectly "flat" ... now you may say that his is impossible... because "you" can always position yourself further and further out from the marble that has then grown to an "infinite size" .....

    The same little thought experiment can be done of course with a circle. Take the circle ... in your mind... and expand it until the curve of the circle becomes a straight line... The line of the circle becomes straight... and then comes back upon itself..!

    These are some mind bending thought experiments but perhaps begin to approach the concept of infinity.
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      May 10 2012: HI Daniel
      Following your discussions...
      I would like to ask some questions:

      Q1: what is the biggest number?
      is there an end to counting?
      Q2: Is the universe infinite?
      Is the earth just one of uncountable copies, tumbling through an unending void?
      Regards
      • May 12 2012: The biggest number is one .... yes ... 1 ....
        .
        Counting is an abstract process within your mind. Your thinking makes it so. The real question is ... Is it "real" or is it just an illusion...?

        If you look closely at the example .... where the circle becomes larger and larger until the side becomes flat.... perfectly flat ..... this is where the "flat or straight" line comes back on itself....

        So even the straight infinite line also comes back upon itself from the opposite direction ...

        The earth is the microcosm. The expanding universe is the macrocosm. We are beings that have been assembled by yet undiscovered cosmic forces that build our physical bodies out of cosmic dust. There are other forces than material forces. There are also spiritual forces. We are spiritual beings that walk around in temporarily assembled physical bodies.
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          May 15 2012: Daniel
          so if i add 1 to your 1 it will be 2
          so, is this 2, smaller than your 1?
          Regards
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      May 11 2012: A sphere (marble) is described as, "an infinite number of points equidistant from another common point." That means that no two points on the surface of a sphere are on the same plane. You can "zoom-in" as much as you want but you will NEVER get three points (which are necessary to define a plane) on the same common plane on the surface of the sphere. A plane that is tangent to a sphere will contact just one point on the surface of the sphere. The distance between any two points on the surface of a sphere will ALWAYS be non-zero.
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        May 12 2012: Edward
        Your example is quite similar to Daniel's discussions.
        So, do you mean that we can get our mind around infinity?
        Regards
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          May 12 2012: My answer is unchanged from one day ago (see above), The answer is NO!
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          May 13 2012: Dear Edward,
          I'd like to remind you of your insightful statement in another comment.....
          "The concept of existence without the characteristics of quantifiability, or measurability, does not compute using human software (aka wetware)."

          I suggest that we do not have the "software" to be able to accurately "get our mind around infinity" under "normal" human circumstances. I had the opportunity to experience infinity with a NDE. So yes, some of us can "get our mind around infinity". Sorry you cannot Edward...it's really quite interesting:>)
      • May 13 2012: Edward,

        You are talking about Euclidian geometry. According to Euclid what your saying is correct. But what I am talking about is something completely different.

        You have to put all your Euclidian definitions aside for the moment. They do not apply in Aristotelian geometry. Euclidian geometry is perfect for building houses and such... but it doesn't apply to the "living" forms of nature like "synthetic" geometry does.

        Try taking a close look at a leaf on a plant for example. The growing points have a very interesting "growth point" Just where on the stem do the new buds find there starting point. There is a perfect symmetry in these starting points that have a lot to do with the "Golden Ratio" If you take a closer look at this Golden Ratio you will see that is far less "mechanical" than Euclid's ideas. It is rather more "organic" and using this type of geometry, a more "living" geometry ... we can get much closer to the idea of "infinity" The point of infinity is really not that far away !
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          May 13 2012: Two quantities are in the golden ratio if the ratio of the sum of the quantities to the larger quantity is equal to the ratio of the larger quantity to the smaller one. That sounds mechanical to me Daniel. I appreciate your reference to a flower with respect to Infinity. William Blake wrote: "To see the world in a grain of sand, and a heaven in a wildflower; hold infinity in the palm of your hand, and eternity in a hour." You gotta love those poets! I say we may get closer to the idea of infinity but the distance between Earthbound man and perfect understanding of the infinite will always be non-zero, the old half-the-distance enigma. Thanks.
      • May 13 2012: Edward,

        Phi = 1,618 033 989 .... and counting....

        Back to the marble .... according to your definition there are an infinite number of points on the surface of the marble, each point at an equal distance from the center. Does the "infinite number" on the surface of the marble change according to the size of the marble....? If we think of a marble, or rather say "sphere", the size of a basketball...? Is the "infinite" number of points the same on both surfaces...? ... the marble against the basketball...?
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          May 13 2012: You must stop trying to quantify that which is infinite Daniel. You cannot count (quantify) the number of points which comprise the surface of a sphere. If we draw a straight line (radius) from the center point of a sphere to any other single point on the surface and then construct a plane perpendicular to that straight line and passing through the selected surface point, no other point will lie on that plane. Thus a flat surface (plane) cannot exist as part of the suface of a sphere.
      • May 14 2012: Edward,

        Above you say that "No two points on the surface of the sphere are on the same plane." This is not so.

        The plane can of course cut through the sphere. This would then create an "infinite number of points from the plane shared with the sphere. This would then create a circle.
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    May 9 2012: Very hard concept to grasp!!! To think of existence with no beginning or end is in direct opposition to everything we experience in reality.
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      May 10 2012: Hi Jim
      i would like to ask @ question:
      is/are the universe(s) infinite?
      Regards
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        May 11 2012: My feeling is existence(s) is /are in a constant state of beginning and ending - a circle of life, I guess you could say.
        As to whether there was a start to it all, or an end coming, is to know the impossible. I would not want to get stuck on a life-long quest to answer that question and find as I lay dying that I missed most of the only life I'm likely to have - or that I will be able to remember having.
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          May 11 2012: Jim
          Q1: what do you mean by "a circle of life". Do you refer to Reincarnation?
          Q2: Do mean that investigating about basic human minds' questions is wasting the time.
          I am afraid people in different universities do the same job.
          Regarding your perspective, what is the most worthwhile work?
          regards
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      May 11 2012: Right................I think the cosmos is always renewing itself by processes we have yet to understand. Who has the capacity to read the mind of God ? To assume that what we can know is all there is, is not reasonable. As for wrapping my mind around infinity, I cannot experience it but I can believe it exists.
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    May 9 2012: Can't say, but i have found this link: http://news.discovery.com/space/is-time-travel-possible.html - interesting regarding timetravel:
  • May 9 2012: Yes, Aristotle nailed it, making 'potential-actual' distinction.
    I think, quantum physics, introducing the principle of 'uncertainty' is catching up with the idea of Aristotle's potential infinity.
    The attempt to grasp infinity by deduction drove Kurt Goedel mad , he was searching for certainty in the field of infinite probabilities.
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      May 9 2012: Hi Natasha
      So, is it impossible to understand the concept of "infinity"?
      regards
      • May 9 2012: Why not ?
        Seriously,' infinity ' is not that is infinitely large, but somewhere IS already or has always been. Infinity is unfolding, it includes everything that is and everything that can be, but more importantly : everything that may never be, but the potential of this ' may - never- be ' is always here and is always ready to be, with all consequences that could have possibly fallowed, if it still had happened ( ! )
        Did I make myself plain ? :)
        Sorry, I guess, i didn't, but I feel quite comfortable with this description.
        And it is only the surface... infinity occupies 0 Space as well as eternity occupies 0 Time, they exist only Now..., Now..., Now ..
        and only in your mind.
        So, we don't need to go anywhere to catch the glimpse of infinity, for it is always "under our feet as well is over our heads "
        Everything is infinite :)
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          May 10 2012: Natasha
          i would like to ask some questions:
          What do you mean by eternity?
          What do you mean by zero time and space in 3D word?
          Regarding your perspective, do we live in infinite universe(s)? How?
          Natasha (one day ago) "Everything is infinite." I did not get you?
          Regards
      • May 11 2012: Mohammad !

        "I didn't get you "

        In a way, you shouldn't :)
        The very tool we are using now to communicate - 'language' is a time based thing and a function of ' maya', the weaver of illusion.We can't 'shape' time-free infinity via language.
        But let's try :
        What do you mean by eternity?

        Eternity is time based frame of reference, while Infinity is space based frame of reference. Accepting Einstein's postulate that Time and Space is one dimension, we can equate those two.
        To simplify : Eternity = Infinity.

        What do you mean by zero time and space in 3D word?

        3D world is the property of spacetime , not the other way around.
        0 is the sum of all probabilities.
        3d world is what IS.( perceivable through our mind and in a way created by it) It is one of the infinite/potential probabilities.

        do we live in infinite universe(s)?
        How do i know ?
        It depends on how long we are capable of perceiving the universe.( Is it infinite or finite ?)
        With death of every individual his/her universe dies and eternity/infinity begins.
        'ends/begins' is a convention, for ''they perish not but reabsorbed "

        "Everything is infinite."
        It is a quintessence of everything I was trying to explain and most likely failed :)
        Let me quote Goethe, he is 0D genius and put it perfectly :
        " One moment holds Eternity "

        Does it help ?
        Cheers
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          May 11 2012: Natasha
          Sorry it is really difficult for me to understand difficult subjects. You know...
          "The very tool we are using now to communicate - 'language' is a time based thing and a function of ' maya', the weaver of illusion.We can't 'shape' time-free infinity via language."
          Q1: 'Do you refer to the context of communications?
          Do you mean that our every day language is incapable to shed light on infinity?
          So, how do you think about infinity in your own mind?
          "0 is the sum of all probabilities.
          3d world is what IS.( perceivable through our mind and in a way created by it) It is one of the infinite/potential probabilities."
          Q2: Mathematically speaking zero means nothing, is the sum of all probabilities nothing?
          Regarding our shared 3D word, and shared physical laws
          Can we go beyond 3D word? What are the rest of probabilities?
          Do you mean that there are infinite universes? So there copies of our 3D word?
          "It depends on how long we are capable of perceiving the universe.( Is it infinite or finite ?)"
          Q3: Regarding your definitions, do you mean eternity of universe?
          I am afraid your discussion is related to eternity of human being weather human being is finite or infinite?
          "With death of every individual his/her universe dies and eternity/infinity begins". How?
          Q4: At last, Regarding our perception and shared physical laws how every thing is infinite?
          One moment holds eternity…yes...but the question is what "one moment" is?
          regards
      • May 13 2012: Hi, Mohammad !

        Be sorry for nothing ! :)
        It's difficult and unfamiliar territory for the majority of us and nobody knows... what we think we know is our cerebral coherent belief system and we should hold it lightly, allowing it to change with new inputs or even let it go if it starts to collapse upon itself.
        Hamzeh's insight "we are the universe " resonates with my 'picture' , if you ask me why ?
        I need to write a book to explain; and it's only slightly exaggerated :)
        May I suggest to focus on a 'language' issue for it is in the center of the storm.
        Language, in a sense, is a conceptual barrier to understanding infinity, for it is structured in 'before-now-after' fashion' It is a bearer of 'the arrow of time', it is time based by its nature.
        At the line between existence and non-existence a language distorts the very phenomenon it is seeking to define. Infinity is timeless and it is not even IS.
        You see ?!!!!
        The glimpse of not quite 3D and time free 'reality can be seen when rules, which hold the language together are violated, like here :
        "Before Abraham was I AM."
        What do you think it is about ?
        Anyone unused to the language of the sacred tradition will probably find this description lacking of credibility...OK , I am not here to argue, E=mc2 is also time free and goes in both directions.
        As for the last question: " what "one moment" is?"
        - Eternity

        It is anti moment or better the combination of both, hence the annihilation of time.It is the point,( which is not a point ) when time stops.
        Believe me , I am not playing with words, I am trying to describe infinity via language :) Metaphorically speaking, we need to look at things through the eyes of a photon.
        Is it any better ?
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          May 15 2012: Natasha
          "I need to write a book to explain; and it's only slightly exaggerated :)"

          Please mention my name in your book.

          "May I suggest to focus on a 'language' issue for it is in the center of the storm?
          Language, in a sense, is a conceptual barrier to understanding infinity, for it is structured in 'before-now-after' fashion' It is a bearer of 'the arrow of time', it is time based by its nature."

          You discussion is similar to Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. does language affect thought?

          "At the line between existence and non-existence a language distorts the very phenomenon it is seeking to define".

          Thank you, YES,,,, but the point is; definitions are timeless.

          "Infinity is timeless and it is not even IS.
          You see ?!!!!"

          I think, It is IS and it is not.

          "E=mc2 is also time free and goes in both directions."

          Because it is a definition.
          I think your discussion is about verbal language?

          "Believe me , I am not playing with words, I am trying to describe infinity via language :) Metaphorically speaking, we need to look at things through the eyes of a photon.
          Is it any better?"

          Of course you are playing with words....
          I am kidding..
          Regards
      • May 15 2012: Of course you are playing with words....

        I must confess, I am , 24/7 :)
        But I am not planning to write a book for I have nothing to say that has not been said and I enjoy listening.:)

        "It is IS and it is not."
        Sounds good, I love paradoxes ! Paradox reconciles the opposites and gives a glimpse of true undual reality.

        "the point is; definitions are timeless."
        What you mean by 'definition',( if I didn't take you wrong ) I would prefer to define as 'symbol' for it is used to stand for something that is unknown and that cannot be made clear or precise , but we can relate to it in a search for a deeper, let's say ' holistic' understanding of things. I would not call them timeless, but , sure symbols are long-living, because they are loose and have room for change :)

        "You discussion is similar to Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. does language affect thought?"

        I am in favour of the principle of linguistic relativity, but as far as I understand , it deals with 'between languages' domain, how different languages alter the perception of the world of the speaker. In the context of the current discussion we are dealing with 'language' in general, on the level of phenomenon and maybe it sounds strange, on this level language has a lot to do with wave/particle duality.
        E=mc2 gained a kind of philosophical dimension, apart from its precise equation quality and serves as a symbol as well. As for the equations in general, they all, as far as I know, go in both directions, hence time free.

        BTW, thank you for launching a great conversation here, but could you explain what exactly do you mean by ''wrap our mind around " ?
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          May 15 2012: Natasha
          look at the wide range of conversstions here..
          different interpretations..
          isnt it beautiful..
          do you ask me a finite interpretation in the realm of infinity?
          Regards
      • May 15 2012: Mohammad !

        I find it beautiful and perfectly natural. Language is a tricky ambiguous thing.
        I guess you will enjoy this quote :

        "I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but I am not sure you realize ,
        that what you've heard is not what I meant."

        :)
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          May 15 2012: Natasha
          according to Philip Roth : "The fact remains that getting people right is not what living is all about anyway. It's getting them wrong that is living,
          getting them wrong and wrong and wrong and then,
          on careful reconsideration, getting them wrong again.
          That's how we know we are alive: we're wrong. Maybe the best thing would be to forget being right or wrong and just go along for the ride."
          Regards
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          May 15 2012: YES...YES...YES Mohammad!!!
          Sometimes, it's ok to simply suspend "thinking" and "go along for the ride".

          "Out of its abysses, unpredictable life emerges, with a never-ending procession of miracles, crises, healing, and growth. When I realize this once again, I see the absurdity of my belief that I can understand, predict and control life. All I can really do is go along for the ride, with as much consciousness and love as I can muster in the moment"

          When we move through this life experience with consciousness and love in our hearts, we experience a little bit of infinity...in my humble perception:>)
      • May 15 2012: I am in full agreement with Philip Roth...
        And
        Check out here
        http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/BlackHole.html
        Sorry, but black hole is not 0, it has three independent physical properties: mass, charge, and angular momentum .
        Maybe we'll try to presume that 0 is the biggest number ?
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          May 17 2012: Natasha
          how do you think about this quesion:

          mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?
          Does it limit INFINITY1?
          please add you answer to Salim's reply
          Regards
  • May 8 2012: No. I think we live in an infinite universe.
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      May 8 2012: Susan
      "The concept of infinity is problematic for humans because our understanding of the universe can only truly be grasped in finite terms, since we live in a finite world" (Susuan-2 hours ago).
      So.. What do you mean by this sentence "we live in a finite world"?
      And what do you mean by "truly grasped information"?
      • May 9 2012: We live in a finite world, meaning it will some day not exist as it does now.
        Truly grasped, means truly comprehended.
        But we are infinite beings living in a finite world. There are times when part of us senses this, and we can somewhat glimpse what it means to be infinite, which is what drives so many scientists, philosophers, and theologians to seek for the answers to infinity.
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          May 9 2012: Susan

          regarding Peter "The bible tells us that we are eternal, spiritual beings."
          what do you think about it?
          Concerning your definition of the finite word.
          Do you think that we live in (a) finite universe(s)?
          regards
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