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Are we able to wrap our mind around infinity?

Infinity. It’s a puzzling concept. Is it real, or a mathematical fiction?
Aristotle believed infinity could only be potential, never actual. To speak of an actual infinity, he argued, is to fall into logical contradiction: “The infinite turns out to be the contrary of what it is said to be,” Aristotle wrote in the Physics. “It is not what has nothing outside it that is infinite, but what always has something outside it.”

Topics: Infinity
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Closing Statement from Mohammad Mohammadipour

Dear All
Thanks for your comments;
And, last but not the least:
Arisen to voiceless unattainable peaks
I meet no end, for all is boundless He,
An absolute Joy the wide-winged spirit seeks,
A Might, a Presence, an Eternity.

In the inconscient dreadful dumb Abyss
Are heard the heart-beats of the Infinite.
The insensible midnight veils His trance of bliss,
A fathomless sealed astonishment of Light.

In His ray that dazzles our vision everywhere,
Our half-closed eyes seek fragments of the One:
Only the eyes of Immortality dare
To look unblinded on that living Sun.

Yet are our souls the Immortal's selves within,
Comrades and powers and children of the Unseen.

Sri Aurobindo(October 1939)
Best Regards.
Mohammad Mohammadipour

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  • May 19 2012: Hi, Mohammad !

    "...is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
    And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?"

    Infinity is a symbol and relevant to the mindset you bring to it .
    There are philosophical/mathematical/theological/quantum mechanical /poetical... and God knows how many 'ungraspabilities' of infinity. :)Sometimes description from one domain contradicts to another. Like here in your question ; 'sets of infinity ' ; it sounds nonsense for philosophical ear for these words being put together cancel each other out in a philosophical context.
    I guess, that made Voltaire so angry :)

    If you chose to explore the mathematical infinity I'd recommend you to get acquainted with Mandelbrot set, if you are not familiar with it already.The simplest algorithm for generating a representation of the Mandelbrot set is known as the "escape time" algorithm. I am not an expert, but I hope it will help you to ask 'the right' question :)
    As for Krisztián comment, you asked me to ponder, for me it falls into the category : sounds cleaver, but what does it mean ? :) Sorry, not my cup of tea.
    I like Daniel's "The line going outward towards the left ... comes back upon itself from the right...'
    It's great !
    I can't answer your question, because for me it is a 'wrong' question ( just for me !) It suggests separation/division, but there is no division between 'inside universe' and infinity. Any division between 'in here' and 'out there' is an illusion of your mind.To comprehend infinity means to be infinity, in a sense it means to seize to be conscious of your separate self. Mystics call this state of consciousness: 'be at the moment' . They say it is open to everyone. Welcome ! :)
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      May 19 2012: HI, Dear Natasha,
      To scrutinize, I would like to write the first question again:
      "Mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?"
      So, what is the problem with this question?
      Regards
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        May 19 2012: It is answered already that's it.....nothing wrong or right.
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          May 19 2012: Salim
          Mathematically speaking, there IS a true answer for this question.
          and the answer is crystal clear..
          isnt it?
          Regards
      • May 19 2012: Mohammad !
        I don't speak mathematical language. maybe there is an equation, which holds the answer to your question, I have no clue! :)
        Watch this video
        http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/fractals-colors-infinity/
        In my language : everything everywhere is doing the same thing ...infinitely.
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          May 19 2012: Natasha
          "I can't answer your question, because for me it is a 'wrong' question" Natasha
          "I don't speak mathematical language." Natasha

          why do you think the so called question is wrong?
          may be there is no problem with the question but it is not in your area of expertise.
          Regards
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      May 19 2012: Mohammad
      It depends on perspective....
      If you decided already to have an YES answer from all that's why you opened up the premise (in your defintion "question" ) ....it's not the place where you will get all "YES SIR" answer.
      Logically , philosophically many here answered "NO"
      Mathematically you got both "YES" and "NO"So you decide .....you are free to decide..... but repeating same thing again and again with out your own explantation or proof doesn't make your point an "infinite truth" (which is absurd).
      It's sounds just like preaching
      Kind regards
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        May 19 2012: Salim
        In a fair weather day, we may talk about the differences between a premise, a question and a hypothesis.
        My last question about Infinity was a simple clear cut question.
        And it needs a true answer; in fact we come up with the answer.
        To be honest with you, I have asked this question to shed light on your question.
        I hope it helps
        Maybe the concept of infinity is not in your area of interest.
        You may find some more interesting subjects.
        Good luck
        • May 19 2012: Mohammad !
          "why do you think the so called question is wrong?
          may be there is no problem with the question but it is not in your area of expertise."

          I emphasised : for me.....(just for me ).
          Salim is right ,It depends on perspective....and sure, Math is not my domain.
          You may put it in a less benign way :
          I am wrong for the right question ,
          I don't mind :)
          Cheers
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    • May 22 2012: hi natasha,,just wanted to correct something,,,when i say time moves backwards,,,all that mean is it moves backwards in space,,,our perception of time is as it should be...we look forward to tommorow,,we look back at yesterday...the only reason time oppoese space is if they both moved in the same direction,,,time in any part of space,would be constant and unchanging,,,time moves backwards to condense like gravity,,,by the way just saw your link on infinity,,will have a look now,,,my blog is dancingzerosofeternity...
      • May 22 2012: ,when i say time moves backwards,,,all that mean is it moves backwards in space,,,
        I meant the same. It's very difficult to avoid misunderstanding here.
        I erroneously used 'we' , I guess, it caused confusion :)

        Thanks for the link !
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    May 18 2012: Mohammad, I hereby honor your request for my reply to Krisztian's contributions herein. Having devoted as much time as seems prudent I have decided to let an honorable Frenchman from the past named Voltaire speak in my place. I think he would answer your question in the negative. Here it is:QUOTE:
    "The only way to comprehend what mathematicians mean by Infinity is to contemplate the extent of human stupidity.”
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      May 19 2012: Edward
      It seems that the concept of Infinity is a blind spot for mathematicians as well.
      Regards
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        May 20 2012: We all (even scientists and mathematicians) see through a glass darkly as the Bible says.
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    May 17 2012: "mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?"

    it is a more accessible question, but not easy. in math, there are objects of infinite size. for example sets. there are sets that has infinite number of elements.

    it turns out that yes, it is possible for a set to be infinite, and be a subset of another set. for example the set of even numbers is a subset of the set of whole numbers, yet they are both infinite. another interesting thing is that although one set is strictly a subset of the other, they are actually have the *same* size.

    it is also possible for an infinite set to be confined. for example the set of real numbers in the range 0..1 is an infinite set in a small space.

    but it is also possible that an infinite set is smaller than another infinite set. the set of whole numbers is smaller than the set of real numbers. this is not straightforward, but Cantor proved it, to everyone's surprise. since then, we know that there is a hierarchy among infinites, and this hierarchy has ... well ... infinite levels. for those who want to know more, i recommend to read about "cardinal numbers". kind of mind boggling. who said math is boring?
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      May 17 2012: Dear Krisztian
      Yes…thank you for your comment
      So is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
      And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?
      Regards
    • May 21 2012: Hi, Kristian !

      Is this what you mean :

      "You can have sets of elements that are Dedekind-infinite, which is when the set has a seemingly paradoxical quality, or has a subset of its elements
      that are able to be matched up on a ONE-TO=ONE basis to each individual element within the set." ( the emphasis is mine )

      And to simplify ...

      "This paradoxical nature of infinity can be illustrated with a hotel with infinitely many rooms, where each is occupied by a guest but can still manage to accommodate a new visitor by moving each guest over one by one to the next available room."

      This is a description I can relate to :)

      I've taken it from here http://www.infinito.org.uk/
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        May 21 2012: yeah, something like that. but that term "dedekind-infinite" is for mathematicians only. for the rest of us, enough to call it infinite.

        infinity has many weird properties. for example there can be so many guests, they don't fit in your infinitely many room hotel. there are infinites larger than the set of natural numbers.

        easy, you say, as the whole numbers (integers) are more. but no, they are the same. even rational numbers, those that can be written as x/y, are as numerous as integers. so we have the set of rationals, which are dense, meaning that there are infinitely many of them in any interval, and yet there is exactly as many rationals as natural numbers. all the rationals fit in your hotel. you can make your rooms have rationals as door numbers, and you will have all.

        the set real numbers on the other hand is indeed much bigger. so much bigger that there is more real numbers in any interval, no matter how tiny, than the entire set of rational numbers.

        how about wrapping your head around that? :)
        • May 21 2012: how about wrapping your head around that? :)

          Next + ultra, I've got the image ....it's you who must wrap your head around how to tax the hotel :)

          Kidding ...

          Thank you very much !
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        May 21 2012: jeez, tough.

        the thing is, if we tax the hotel at zero percent, the amount to pay is mathematically undefined. if we tax them at any higher percent, the amount to pay is also undefined.

        my solution is to set a fixed tax, or at least a tax ceiling and a nonzero percent.

        the state solution is to enact a law that require hotels to create subdivisions if the number of rooms exceed 100000, and do separate accounting for each subdivision. doing so, the hotel has the burden and the state has the money.
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    May 16 2012: If mind can wrap it up how it then remains infinity.....?
    Pondering about the main premise itself??????
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      May 16 2012: touché. the topic can be closed now.
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      May 16 2012: Salim,
      We can stretch our minds to infinity while trying to "wrap it up":>)

      Krisztián,
      That looks like "in the box" thinking:>)
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        May 16 2012: thinking inside an infinite box is not a limitation! :P
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          May 16 2012: You make a good point...but...I don't think infinity is bound by boxes of any kind:>)
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          May 17 2012: Colleen , I feel that's a good witty response of Krisztian........we need some fun even in the toughest discussion.......:)
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          May 17 2012: Yes Salim....I LOVE Krisztián's sense of humor, and it definitely is fun to have fun:>)
          Do you think this is a tough discussion?
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          May 17 2012: Colleen
          With my naiveness when I can participate in any discussion that's definitely not a tough one ....that's my measuring scale.
          Well being naive can join a heated discussion but not a tough one :)
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          May 17 2012: Dear Salim,
          I'm afraid I have to disagree with you....there is a first time for everything!!! :>)

          I do not agree that you are naive. You offer a LOT of insightful comments, and I LOVE the fact that you often say so much with so few words:>) Your kindness, intelligence, insight and sense of humor are appreciated:>)

          I have my mind well wrapped around that idea, and it is infinitely true...in my humble perception:>)
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          May 18 2012: Colleen
          Wow.....Disagreement also can be such Delightful ......???
          Your overly generous disagreement made me overwhelmly obliged.
          Have a lovely day.

          P.S. Sorry for abusing REPLY button of Krisztian.....as I had no option for the sack of continuity
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          May 18 2012: Honestly Salim, I sometimes feel naive at times when the conversation moves to science/math perspectives. And I also know that we are all different and have different information to offer:>)

          I believe we can maintain joy and delight even when disagreeing. This, to me, is part of the cycle of infinity. While folks are trying to understand infinity by way of numbers, which I respect and am interested in, I use a practical application.

          If we look at parts of the definition of infinity, we see...
          "Boundlessness; subject to no limitation or external determination; immeasurably or inconceivably great or extensive; being greater than any preassigned finite value;characterized by an infinite number of elements or terms".

          We can "wrap our mind around infinity" using an "infinite number of elements or terms", and I believe we are living the cycle of infinity HERE...NOW. So, I percieve the possibilities to connect with that theory in every moment of my life.

          Disagreements are often bound by limitations, expectations and external determination. When we bring joy and respect to disagreements, it changes the dynamic of the interaction, thereby causing it to be "greater than any preassigned finite value".

          When we bring this concept into every aspect of our life experience, we are living in, and exploring the concept of infinity. It is not "out there" somewhere...it is here and now....we are part of it.....we contribute to it in every moment of our lives. I understand that this may be difficult for our math/science left brain dominant friends to grasp:>)

          I am a simple person...uncomplicated...and I find joy in considering an "infinite number of elements or terms". In my humble perception, when we are only looking at answers in terms of math, science, or any other limitation, we are missing some of the important elements:>)
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          May 19 2012: Colleen
          I can't agree more (unable to give you delightment of disagreement , sorry :))
          In other post you talked about "exploring" mind....again have to agree..:D
          Without any comparison between the persons who said ......I try to use tonics which seems to be very healthy (to me) those are
          "Know Thyself".........
          "Stay Hungry, Stay Foolish".......
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        May 17 2012: Yes Colleen we can and should stretch our mind.......
        The moment that stretched mind wraps something called infinite that point it loses it's infiniteness.......:)
        • May 17 2012: Beautifully said. Salim !
          Everything that is named/understood automatically starts to lose its infiniteness......
          but...
          no matter how 'ungraspable' what you are thinking at the moment can be, the very act of thinking creates new connections in your brain and at some point it can make a leap.
          But you can't tell what you've got :)
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          May 17 2012: I agree Salim and Natasha,
          Sometimes, as soon as we (humans) think we "know" something, we sometimes stop exploring, in favor of thinking we "know". Personally, I like the fun of the exploration, and do not need to label or catagorize anything, thereby leaving an open door for an infinite exploration:>) I LOVE learning, and the one thing I think I "know" is that there is always another level of learning:>)
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        May 17 2012: Hi Natasha....
        Yeap I agree....& thanks for your compliments

        Well you are talking about the "Eureka" moment of Archimedes :)

        What you mentioned as the moment of "ungraspability" may also can be felt like moment of infinity.... thats my feeling.

        P.S. Sorry had to steal REPLY button of Colleen
        • May 17 2012: Hi, Salim !

          "Eureka" moment " has a lot to do with a 'leap', I guess :)
          It is a moment of integration; an act of knowing. Knowing has no voice for it is a kind of non-dual state and you need mind with its capacity to create recognisable patterns to 'convert' a flash of insight into symbols, equations, poetry...anything, that has 'extendedness' in Time.
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      May 17 2012: HI Salim
      i would like to ask a question:
      mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?
      Does it limit INFINITY1?
      Regards
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        May 17 2012: Hi Mohammad
        I am still pondering about main premise as I told earlier.....your this question is nothing different from that.....

        Logically when something can limit anything then that no more can be called infinity from that moment ..

        Please follow Krisztian & Colleen's post above......Colleen answered your this question replying to the witty response of Krisztian.
        Thanks
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          May 17 2012: Salim
          i should mention that,
          the reseach question has a hypothesis and null hypothesis.
          the title is a question and not a premise.
          regards
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        May 17 2012: In order for Infinity 2 to exist it would be necessary for Infinity 1 to honor an impossible boundary. There can "be" only one Infinity, or Eternity.
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        May 17 2012: Hi Mohammad
        Thanks for your teaching.....
        Despite I already have a dull idea of null hypothesis.
        However a premise may come as a question as well...
        That's my understanding, any concern about that? I am open please prove your QUESTION.
        Regards
      • May 17 2012: Maths isn't my strong point but mathematically it is possible to to have one infinity within another, the example that immediately springs to mind is the Koch snowflake which is a type of fractal. Here is the wiki link which includes plenty of diagrams and animations to help with visualisation

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_snowflake

        You can see that the inifinate perimeter of the Koch snowflake can be imagined within an infinite space outside the snowflake. With regards to the original question as well it is certainly the nearest I can come to wrapping my mind around infinity.
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          May 17 2012: Hi Terry
          i should really appreciate it if you could read Krisztian's discussion and answer the following questions:

          is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
          And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?
          Please add your comment on the top of the page.
          Regards
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      May 18 2012: mathematically there is only one infinity and if something has been ever equlled once to infinity, any other mathematical operation on that, with any numbers other than infinity itself is infinity. like, infinity + 1 is also infinity. and that doesn't mean, infinity is less than infinity + 1. this can be made more clear if you think of infinity as a constant number, if its constant its not infinity. infinity is never ending and with no boundaries.
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    May 15 2012: Colleen
    i think meaning will find its own shape in the minds' of individuals subconsciously through discussion.
    and this is the main resoan that i love discussions in TED.
    please write about me as a young handsome man from Iran, maybe a doctor in hospital.
    i am kidding..
    as far as i am concerned there is a book in farsi in the same area by the name of "Dastanhaye Shegeft"
    Regards
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      May 15 2012: Mohammad,
      I like discussions on TEd for that reason too:>)

      OK...you got it..."young handsome man from Iran...doctor"...I'll wrap my mind around that:>)
      Be careful what you ask for...you just might get it!
      Your profile says your expertise is linguistics, educator/teacher. Are you changing directions to medicine? It's ok....you can do that.....you have infinity to explore many subjects:>)

      What does "Dastanhaye Shegeft" mean? I tried to translate it on line, and couldn't.
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        May 15 2012: Colleen
        thank you Colleen..that is really kind of you..
        i am trying to get a PHD in the near future, a doctor but this time in Philosophy.
        if you could google the word, you wiil get the PDF format of book.
        it means Weird Stories.
        Regards
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    May 14 2012: hi mohammed, i think the term inifinity is relative. relative to how much our human senses can comprehend. our thoughts and intelligence are limited, infinity refers to a magnitude beyond what our human senses can comprehend. its not enough to wrap arround the whole concept of universe. our intelligence and information is very limited, considering the size of universe, but its evolving. earlier our limit was earth, we thought if we keep traveling straight earth would end some where. as of now we know there are plenty more planets like earth and galaxies like milky way, but still our imagination is limited with that idea. our intelligence has to evolve more to accomodate certain idea.
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      May 17 2012: Hi Pranoy
      how do you think about this quesion:

      mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?
      Does it limit INFINITY1?
      please add you answer to Salim's reply
      Regards
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    May 9 2012: The reason we cannot understand infinity is probably because our brains are finite. The bible tells us that we are eternal, spiritual beings. We exist for eternity, whether that is infinite time, or infinity is the absence of time, I am not sure.
    When you think about it, spacial infinity must be real. If not, then what is beyond the boundary ? However the concept is beyond our understanding.
    I go with the bible; it encompasses many aspects of existence which are beyond us, but it has changed the life of millions.Personally I am happy with the concept that we are eternal children of an Infinite, eternal god,& one day we will understand just exactly what that means.

    :-)
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      May 9 2012: Hi Peter
      Q1: concerning different brain structures and their functions, Is human brain finite?
      Q2; So, is it impossible to understand the concept of infinity?
      Regards
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        May 9 2012: Hi Mohammad.
        A1 I would say that the brain itself is finite. It consists of a finite number of atoms. The number of thoughts it can produce will be much greater; but as the life of the brain is finite, the number of thoughts & signals must also be finite.
        A2 I don't think it is possible for a finite brain to grasp infinity properly. Our being however includes a soul which is eternal. I believe this gives us a sense of eternity which often manifests itself in a sense of God. We also get a sense of surprise when people die, as deep down we feel that it is not 'normal'.

        :-)
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        May 11 2012: Hi Mohammad.
        My source is the bible. I believe that when my body dies, my spirit will return to the one who created it. When history has run it's course, my spirit will be given an eternal body to inhabit. Life with my creator can then resume throughout eternity. My new body will have similarities to my present one, we will recognise each other etc. , but it will be immortal.
        The bible also talks of judgements etc., but that is another; & rather touchy subject.
        I guess no-one knows for sure, but that is my sincere belief, given what we know at present.

        :-)
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          May 12 2012: Peter

          and, why are we here (3D word)?
          regards
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          May 15 2012: Wondering what you mean with (3D word) ?

          But since I'm here. :) In our religion (based on the Second Coming) we believe that there is only one reason we are here. The only 'job' we have is to build the best (loving) character we possibly can, whatever religion we subscribe to.

          God is a God of Love and He would like to love us the most He can. The more love we give to others, the more love He can give to us. For instance, we can put no more water into a barrel than what flows out, the rest is wasted. Swedenborg says 'influx is according to efflux.
          This may help too
          http://spiritualquestions.org.uk/2011/12/holistic-ideas/
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        May 13 2012: Hi Mohammad.
        Billion dollar question. I guess God wants a family. Someone once said this world is like a departure lounge with two doors. We get to chose whether we want to be in God's family or not. His family chooses one door, the others chose the other door.
        That's my take; what's yours ?

        :-)
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          May 15 2012: Peter
          So, if he wants a family, he might have other wants as well?
          And, why a family, was he alone or something?
          I am afraid, aren't theses human wants?
          Regards
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        May 15 2012: Hi Mohammad.
        Yes these are human wants. How else would we understand ? I'm sure God has reasons that we are not capable of understanding. He came as a man; Jesus; to help us understand what he is like, but we have little idea of the totality of God, any more than we understand infinity. He is eternal, omnipresent, & infinitely powerful; a bit beyond our understanding.

        :-)
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          May 15 2012: Peter
          Regarding your prespective, how do you think about colleen's discussions?
          Regards
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        May 16 2012: Hi Mohammad
        I wouldn't want to put words in Coleen's mouth, but I can make general comments. I believe the bible to be trustworthy; so when I have feelings & experiences I will check them against what the bible says. Some feelings can be true, & others may not be.
        NDE's & OBE's seem to be quite common, & in general I would say they are biblical. We are spiritual beings who inhabit a physical body. It is entirely feasible that at times of trauma the two could be separated. They will be separated by death anyway, so a trial run is possible. I believe that our spiritual part is entirely capable of consciousness & decision making; maybe even more so.
        I agree with Ed on the "Lake of Fire" & such however. The bible is very clear on a judgement & a separation of believers & unbelievers. That probably doesn't apply to NDE's & OBE's , but will apply at death.
        Hope that helps.

        :-)
  • May 8 2012: The concept of infinity is problematic for humans because our understanding of the universe can only truly be grasped in finite terms, since we live in a finite world. This does not mean it is fiction--just that our "logic" does not reach that far.
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      May 8 2012: Hi Susan
      Do you think that we live in finite universe (word)?
      regards
      • May 10 2012: Salam
        I think our thoughts and imaginations has no limit and we understand the concept of infinity.
        Also I feel the materialistic part of our universe consists of limited and finite entities, dimensions, durations and forms. "Conceptually" there is no limits to these, however, "physically" they are limited.
        Therefore the materialistic part of our universe which consists of matter and energy is limited.
        There is a misunderstanding about space and time. These are concepts so they have no limit. Space and time do not exist physically. Dimensions and durations which are attributed to matter do exist and are limited.
        Good luck
        • May 10 2012: K Hamzeh !

          "... the materialistic part of our universe which consists of matter and energy is limited" ...
          by not existing limits.
          Spacetime is a by-product of our mind and the creator of the latter.
          Vexed ' Chicken-egg' issue.
          So... everything is infinite, but we perceive ' matter/energy part of the infinity as finite: our mind traps it in time and makes it 'be' in space as matter/energy.

          I could be wrong :)
          Cheers !
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          May 10 2012: Salam Hamzeh jan
          so, do we live in infinite universie(s)?
          regards
      • May 10 2012: Salam Mohammad
        I think space physically do not exist. This means that if there is no physical matter (like galaxies and atoms) existing, there would not be any thing. Space is just a property (or potential as you mentioned) .
        We wrongly consider space as a blank sheet of paper which exists without any drawing on it. Or as a better example, we use to consider the space as something like the surface of the earth, a physical entity which is finite. Then we look up to the deep sky and question whether that direction is finite or not. I may say that if there was a physical road (or ladder) to sky, it would be finite/
        So, simply the limits of our universe is defined by the matters (galaxies and spreading energies) which exist.
        I think the amount of matter and energy (in fact every physical entity) in our world is limited (finite).
        So the answer to your question is: please think over the meaning of the universe! Distinguish between matters and the potential of matters being far from each other (i.e.space). The distance between you and me has no limit (concept - our minds conceive this concept) but in the universe our distance is finite.(physical reality- our senses feel and measure it).
        regards
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          May 11 2012: Hamzeh
          "I think space physically do not exist. This means that if there is no physical matter (like galaxies and atoms) existing, there would not be any thing. Space is just a property (or potential as you mentioned) ."
          Q1: Do you mean that if X exists there should be some thing that is not X?
          "We wrongly consider space as a blank sheet of paper which exists without any drawing on it. Or as a better example, we use to consider the space as something like the surface of the earth, a physical entity which is finite. Then we look up to the deep sky and question whether that direction is finite or not."
          Q2: Who do you refer to?
          "I may say that if there was a physical road (or ladder) to sky, it would be finite/"
          Q3: By the word physical, do you mean perceivable?
          So imagine there is a way from Big Bang, to…and metaphoriclay speaking, your movement on this road is the movement of light?
          Q4: Is the way finite?
          "Distinguish between matters and the potential of matters being far from each other (i.e.space). The distance between you and me has no limit (concept - our minds conceive this concept) but in the universe our distance is finite.(physical reality- our senses feel and measure it)."
          Q3: Do you mean that universe is finite?
          Or there is only one universe?
          Q4: So imagine that you are on the age of maximum potential space? What is next?
          Regards
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    • May 22 2012: the mind is not infinite,,,if it appears that way,thats only perception...the mind has a start point in birth,,,and a an end point at the point if death...there would be no purpose to an infinite mind,,,the mind is a processor,,,so must be accessible,otherwise whats the point...our subconscious is the database that where conscious resides,,,where lost,and forgotten memories stay,,,amongst them is awareness focusing our conscious in what seems infinite,,only because of what we've forgotten...but the mind cannot remember or has no information before life or after death,,,that would be the soul...the brain decays with rest of the body....the mind is a product of both conscious/and subconsciousness...for the mind to be infinite,so must consciousness,,,
      • May 22 2012: I think any physical entity (like brain and all galaxies) is limited and finite.
        On the other hand soul is not physical and is not limited to laws of physics which hold on the physical part of our world. We are not able to discover the laws of metaphysics and non-materialistic part of our world. So when we use the physical parameters like time and space about non-physical entities, simply no physical limits may be attributed to these entities and thus they seem infinite.
      • Comment deleted

        • May 22 2012: creativity,,is accessed and improved mentally,but art students still study,,,psychology is studies behaviour and what causes it mentally,,,all they need is the mind,,,they still study...doesnt matter what you like to do,,,sure you could mentally analyse it,,and youd prabably,become quite informed,,,if you obssess with it you might become expert,,,but why would you,,,Einstein spent his life doing work,and wrote it down so someone could learn it quicker,and advance it...sir issac newton had no one to teach him the principia,,,he had to work it out from scratch,,,but he passed it on,,because he didnt want it to stay unimproved...ive been teaching myself science,physics for long time,,,started with analytical thought,but till i researched what i knew,,and had something established to base it,,,it was nothing more than idea,,,humanity has been around for a long time,,,before tv,internet ,or even radio,,,where people that wanted to explore their minds did with much fewer distraction,,,instead of spending years to learn what someone before you did,,find out what they knew,,,and use your mind to advance the knowledge...ten years later,,im still learning,,,doctorate would have take 8yrs,,,instead im in construction,,with hobby,
    • May 22 2012: the mind is not infinite,,,it begins at birth,and stops in death...wrap,,is not either though i do understand what you are trying to say,,,no begin,no end just goes and goes,,,but thats only relative to who is observing,,,from inside might appear as infinite,,,but from outside it can be seen therefore finite....many things are relatively infinite,,that does not mean they are,,,infinite,or infinity,is absolute,non negotiable,,,if in time and infinity is discovered where it end that doesnt mean it used to be infinite,it means never was...relative to us the mind can seem infinite,,but a tree can see us and our mind's entire time cycle from birth to death,,,the tree is not infinite either,,,time outlasts all and came before...time is infinite,,,for now
  • May 21 2012: infinity is more than a concept...the singularity of a black hole is infinity...time has been stretching back for nearly 14 billionb years...thats a line of infinty,,,infinity is missing thats all,,it has to be the or the universe wouldnt be the same...just that no one can find it cause it goes on forever...one thing i believe though is if we dont know where it ends,,how do we know it doesnt.....thats just thinking out loud though...theres nothing to support either way
    • May 21 2012: Hello John
      I would like to invite you to take look at my conversations about unlimited space and time.
      Regards
      • May 22 2012: would love to,,,
      • May 22 2012: where do i find them??
        • May 22 2012: Just click on my name above!
      • May 22 2012: sorry was typing reply as comments closed,,,so though id retype here...fist of all,,,nothing in the universe,,,is truly nothing,,,even empty space is something...our minds only understand the universe as required,,,in other words measurements relative to us....we cannot understand the proposed expiry date of the universe for example which is 1to the 100,,,thats 1and 100 zeros next to it,,,we cant understand it because we dont need to,,,if one day that became the price of bread,,we would adapt very quickly,,,according to accepted science the universe is expanding,,,but some particles and energy are not finite,,infact all mass and energy that are symmetrical have a conserved quantity,,that does not chance,,,that is proven,,and i could show you equation,,,but basically the reason it is conserved is because the laws of nature dont change,,,and without conserved quantity,,eventually one would outnumber another breaking the balance of the forces and youd have too much dark energy,,or too little gravity,,or might have too much energy,,,in chaotic frenzy...a better name for the universe is space time...both real,,existing,and supporting all...spacetime is the framework in which everything sits,,,gravity is caused by space time being stretched around mass creating a distortion or stretch artound the object that near by object fall into,,,unless they are havier then the opposite is true....the limits of space are predicted but unkown and unconfirmed,,,as with time...every time for example has a time before,,,even if there was no before,,that absence itself is time before time....all the forces are thought to have arisen from one during the big bang,,,and much could be said here,,but,its yet to be demonstrated accurately,,,and in time and some fine tuning it will be...as for the creator,,,your faith will find god not science...we could never understand or wrap our heads around god because god is beyond our comprehension...we only understand what is before us beyond we learn
  • May 20 2012: funny thing about infinity,,unless its related to space or time,,its nothinhg more than a concept,,,cause basically we will never find out,,,,not with mind,that will buried,,but the sole ..??not sure if have the authority to answer that...but name one machine that develloped consciousness...
    • May 20 2012: 'nothing more than a concept. '
      Indeed, it's funny !
      ' Infinity' is a mind construct, mind can not penetrate !
      Any ideas , why ?
      I have mine, but would appreciate yours first :)
  • May 20 2012: consciousness has nothing to do with science,,,or to put it in a better way no one knows enough to include it,,,again its ironic because we dont know anything else,,,which i guess could classify it infinte,,,maybe i can tell you in a few trillion years...i have my oipinion on consciousness and spirituality,,,but they are my opinions,more than just opinions,,,but they must come from within...if you believe in god,,he knows you better than i do,,.
    • May 20 2012: "i have my oipinion on consciousness and spirituality,"

      Could you share ?

      'but they must come from within...if you believe in god,,he knows you better than i do,,."

      I won't go that far to equate 'infinity' and 'God' , but I guess, they share the same 'location' - 'within'
      Would you agree ?
      • May 21 2012: cant just say you have your,,,and stop there...share...
        • May 21 2012: Hi, John ,
          Knowing, by its very nature exists in a way form.
          To fix , shape the thought , mind breaks the wave function and the wave/particle quality of a 'fuzy' thought opts to a particle, hence picks up only one probability from the realm of all probabilities of a quantum wave, traps it in time and makes it real, but not true, because you can't understand something without everything.
          Something like this....:)
          But the situation is not that helpless. When mind accumulates enough data ( fractions, patterns ) it can make a reverse leap to the wave.
  • May 20 2012: infinity is very real...if you think of time it can only be created by an event,or observation,,,basically if i clap my hand,i create time,,,fake time,but still till...there will time before the time after,,and in the middle when i clap,,is a third time 0..call both times,and the zero a wave,,on its own 0 is a wave particle...dont think of zero as a circle,think of it as empty...would it have a floor,,,not if its 0,,,its infinite because its missing,,,eternity is the small one,,,if you like streching a year over an eternity...do you think youd see it??if you look at this again youd see that infinity and eternity are both absent so why not the same thing??thats because eternity grows,,,so within it it becomes less dense,,eventually evaporating,,,(maybe) infinity condenses and the smaller it gets the denser...a black is an infinity,,,eternity is dark matterr/or space and its so light no one thought it was anything for very long time...
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      May 20 2012: Hi John
      Your brain-storm is an inspiring mess-discussion.
      But..i would like to extract some sentences:
      1..."infinity is very real"...Q: how?
      2...."dont think of zero as a circle,think of it as empty"…Q: did I say "zero" is a circle?..Q: why empty? Do you refer to a specific capacity? Is that the only meaning of zero?
      3,,,"its infinite because its missing",,Q: do you mean it WAS, and it IS not now?
      4…"infinity and eternity are both absent so why not the same thing"?....Q: why the same?
      5..."a black is an infinity"..Q: YES
      6.."eternity grows,,,so within it it becomes less dense,,eventually evaporating..
      7..eternity is dark matterr/or space and its so light"…(6-7) Q:I did not get you?
      Regards
      .
      • May 21 2012: the singilarity of every totality,,in the totality of every singularity???or is it just me that getsx toungue twisted
    • May 20 2012: "eternity grows,,,so within it it becomes less dense,,eventually evaporating,, infinity condenses and the smaller it gets the denser.

      Eternity = Infinity
      Eternity grows 'for the sake' of Infinity... so they are selfannihilating within itself , self consistent Nothing.
      Did I get it right ? Or at least something :)

      ".there will time before the time after,,and in the middle when i clap,,is a third time 0..call both times,and the zero a wave,,on its own 0 is a wave particle.."

      Could you elaborate on 3 time division ?
      Sounds pretty familiar thou...""Before Abraham was I AM."

      John ! Thank you very much !!!
      • May 21 2012: you got more right than most,,eternity doesnt really equall infinity,,,theyre two opposites,,,but in theory if you wanted to measure both,,,youd never finish,,,as nothing would,,,if one has no floor and one has no ceiling,,,and they both go forever,,,then forever is the same,in that its missing..eternity and infinity dont annihilate each other,,in fact they never meet,,when i say eternity grows it expanding,,as in moving outward,,dont know if it grows,,cause dont know where it ends,,.eternity stretches out,m,while infinity keeps getting smaller...look at 0.0000000....with every zero the line is streched if you stretch a rubber band,only gets thinner ,,,and the space inside that point of infinity becomes denser and heavier,,,the singularity inside a black hole is so small you can even seen it but because whats inside it has been squeezed so much it becomes so heavy light cant escape its gravity,,,for eternity think of the opposite,,ifn you had a chocolate bar and shared it with ten people
        each would get 10%share it with 100, you get 1% share the chocolate with a million..etc..
        now time..any event creates time,,i clap my hand,ive divided time in three parts,,tiome before i clapped time after i clapped and when i didso time is divided two sections divided by three points
        • May 21 2012: "...eternity doesnt really equall infinity,,,theyre two opposites..."

          They are not equal, they are the same, being opposed to each other ...
          sounds good, very good !
          Time and Space never meet, but they are bound together forever...

          You can't meet your own reflection in the mirror, though it mimics all your movements with high precision, it's you,but in reverse.
          And 'you' is always 'missing' , you fix ' you' by illusion.
      • May 21 2012: i hope i answered everything properly,,but you gave me three brain twisters at once,,,.impressive,,,if i went a little off track,,,happy to redo it...wont take as long thios time either
      • May 21 2012: eternity doesnt grow,,,ity stretches into space we cant say it grows because we dont know how big it is,,and its missing,,and eternity doesnt chance,,whatever i going to happen in eternityhas already happened,,because eternity is the absence of time and outside time space is missing...just got
        ab iam between i and b is the big bang,,,but there was only band i...not sure what you mean by 3 time division,,,is that for isolating higgs or(singularity of time)just underastood what you meant,,
        easy _____ to the left is time uninterrupted..a duality oif absolute singularity un measured..in other words its not yet time...say i clap the point of time at which i clapped isa now dividedsone of that time passed before,,and some passed after so on singularityof time becomes one before and one afterin the middle is zero,,,that i now...then you have 1_0_1,,if this is for dr hawking aswell..then 101=0 010=2 0011=01 1100=10,,,every singularity or quanta must be seperated by zero...and its only between two zeros we get 1..0 0 however is infinit so the value of zero cannot be absolute therefore 0=1-0=>0...also 0=-1+0.999...=0
        • May 21 2012: John ! Thanks for responding !

          Could you give me the link of the blog, you've mentioned ?
          Thank you !
        • May 21 2012: We go in time backwards. What we see as future is past, actually neither of those. The only 'real' thing is NOW, but it is not fixed it moves 186,282 miles per second.
          Or maybe faster.
          "... the value of zero cannot be absolute ...."
          for it is interrupted by NOW This is what we call reality. Can we say : if not the eye of the intelligent observer, the value of 0 would be absolute.?
          As it was said : let it be light !
          Does 1_0_1 mean, that only the 'reality' is not 'real' ?
      • May 22 2012: hi natasha this reply not for your last statement but the previous...i love how you connect between science,and philosophy,,,and i must tell you not so long ago i would not have been able to reply,,,youre absolutely right the mind does breakdown the wave particle,,,but its a lighjt particle,,,not infinite,,though we cant see through it...infity and eternity are missing,,,reason for theyre absence is they must be as their absence is what leave behind an infinite or eternal void interfeering with particles as energies...its the void left by infinity,and eternity that creates opposing energy ,,,and the opposable forces of the universe...not many in physics or science,,would confirm this with confidence yet...but i am certain,,,by reaserch,and observation that this is the case...and my aim recently has been to bring this to the attention of other ,with the supporting data to introduce it as accepted theory,,,and it will be,,i spent 10 years on it,,,but seeing the higgs /higgs field interacting with particles,confirmed it to me,,,its what Enstein reffered to as spooky action from a distance...very close to what youre saying,,,but infinity is what carries the particle not the particle itself
  • May 17 2012: Hey Mo.

    OK. Lets look at it this way. Infinity is an abstract spacial concept that we operate with that is based upon a false premise.

    If we go back to be marble example or better said, a sphere.

    Now, you say that the distance to the midpoint of the sphere is infinitely long
    and the distance outward, away from the sphere is also infinitely long. That the distance goes on forever. But these are false assumption in the content of the concept infinity.

    Our logical experience from our observation tells us that something here is not correct here.

    # The space "inside" the sphere...

    Because we can see the entire surface of the sphere ... Logic tells us that the midpoint of the sphere must be somewhere between a point on a dissecting line through a point on the surface of the left surface of the sphere, then passing through the midpoint and then passing out through a point on the right side of the surface of the sphere.

    Imagine that you form a ball of wax in a perfect sphere around a 20cm long string(segment of a line) Now when operating with your concept of infinity, the fact that the string passing through the ball of wax is NOT infinitely long as you can see simply because you have cut the string to a 20cm length. So, to assume that the distance to the midpoint of the sphere is infinitely long is a misconception. Your concept of "infinite" needs to be redefined. It is simply not true that the line from the surface to the midpoint has an infinite number of points along that line to the center of the sphere.

    # The space "outside" the sphere..

    Now the 2nd part of the illusion is this.
    It is not within our sense perception to see just where the string then goes when we extend it out of the ball of wax and out into "endless space", simply because we just can visualize where the thread disappears to.

    But similar to the example I have shown earlier

    0 ) I ( 0

    The line going outward towards the left ... comes back upon itself from the right...
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      May 17 2012: Dear Daniel

      thanks for your comment
      Regards
      • May 22 2012: hi mohammad,,youre not that far off with inf1,and inf2...keep in mind infinity in this context is absolute,,,what most regard as infinite is only relative to the observer...like any object,no matter how small,is not infinite because for it to be infinite it must be missing,,otherwise its observeable,therefore only relatively infinite...time however..keeps preceeding,,,if you could find first time,,just observing it would be an event preceeded by time,,,there you wouldnt have inf1,,and inf2,,,just infinity...infinity must be singular,,,if you could have inf1,,,and inf2 clearly defined they are not missing Therefore not inf...time is the only absolute infinity to my knowledge todate,,,apart from the value of zero,,,but that i disagree with,,,zero always equals>0 or
    • May 22 2012: hi krisztian,,,objects of infinite size mathematically are only infinite relative to the observer,,,as with most of what is view as infinite,,,very few apply as absolute infinites,,,time is one...as time must be preceeded by time,,and any event must be preceeded by time...even the birth if time is an event splitting time into before and after,,,one of my pet peeves is assuming the big bang gave rise to time,,,even if so,,the event itself,was preceeded by non event which is before time,,and if one went back in time to measure time from the non event,,,just observing,is an event preceeded by time...
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    May 17 2012: You're Welcome Mohammed.
    I must congratulate you. I have been around TED for years, & this is the most well run thread I have seen. Great subject, very polite & well run. I look forward to another. Well done!

    :-)
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      May 17 2012: To my dear freind Peter
      thank you for your kind comments
      Best Regards.
      Mohammad Mohammadipour
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    May 14 2012: HI colleen
    Thank you for sharing your unique experience.
    I should really appreciate it if you could explain more details.
    Q1: How did you find the information?
    Q2: Did you find some thing new and unrecognizable? or did you have all the knowledge implicitly?
    Q3: What about your consciousness? Were you able to think?
    Q4: Is energy a metaphor for what you were?
    How did you find your self?
    I think when we think about ourselves as X we are not X?
    We should be beyond X to get our mind around it?
    Kind regards
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      May 15 2012: Hello Mohammad,
      You are good about asking questions to facilitate exploration of your question:>)

      The NDE/OBE is not really so unique, as I found out from extensive research and exploration. There are hundreds of recorded cases throughout history, and scientists are now researching it.

      1. I'm not sure I understand your question...."How did you "find" the information? "Do you mean how did I interpret the information? I found it to be amazing, amusing, educational, and most of all, I experienced it as a comfortable "coming home".

      2. The whole adventure was new and unrecognizable for me at first, and even though it felt very comfortable, it was not something that fit into my belief system at the time. That's one part that is/was amusing to me:>)

      One thing I discovered with the review of my lives, is that I've had several lives. Reincarnation was NOT in any way part of my belief system, and now it is:>)

      3. The thinking and feeling features were way beyond ( more intense) than anything I ever experienced as a human. I experienced many levels of consciousness at the same time. I was aware of the experience I was having, and also aware of everything that was happening in the room where the body was. Although I was "unconscious", according to the medical model, I was actually much more conscious on many different levels.

      4. I'm not sure if the term energy is a metaphor or a reality. It is the only term I know, to describe what I experienced. I'm not a scientist....just a simple person who had this experience which felt very natural to me.

      My "self" was/is the energy. As I said in a previous comment...the body appeared to be simply a vehicle, and that is how I percieve it at this time as well.

      You say "we should be beyond X to get our mind around it?" Perhaps this is true...If we get "out" of what we think of as our "self" (the body) perhaps we can actually experience the true self?
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        May 15 2012: Colleen
        could you mention my name in your book, please
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          May 15 2012: Mohammad,
          I have no plan to write a book at this time. When/if I do, what would you like me to say about you?

          Are you getting any closer to wrapping your mind around infinity because of this discussion?
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    May 14 2012: Infinity cannot be grasped by our consciousness, but can be glimpsed by our unconscious.
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      May 14 2012: Agreed. I interpret "wrap our mind around" to mean complete understanding. I think that is not the same as your "grasped" or "glimpsed.
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        May 17 2012: Dear Edward
        i should really appreciate it if you could read Krisztian's discussion and answer the following questions:

        is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
        And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?
        Please add your comment on the top of the page.
        Regards
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      May 15 2012: HI Allan
      what do you mean by unconscious?
      do you mean subconscious?how?
      regards
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        May 16 2012: Hi Mohammad.

        Subconscious and unconscious are essentially the same thing. I prefer 'unconscious', because it is the term Freud and Jung used in their writing.

        Very loosely, the only way we can intuit something that seems beyond the reach of our consciousness (like infinity), is to use our imagination - by attributing possibility, shape, texture and personality to it, in order to make it acceptable to the part of our mind (the conscious) that demands something graspable - even if that something is symbolic or mythological. The unconscious can use symbolism and myth to bring the unfathomable and the mysterious to our consciousness. But they can only allow glimpses of what COULD be - not what IS.

        Here is my take on it, based on what I know, and what I imagine: If infinity is linear, it is also immeasurable and unimaginable - and I would say impossible due to inevitable gravity warping plus the limitations of that which is observable in the universe.

        If space time is curved, then what we imagine as infinity may also be curved - and therefore infinite!
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          May 16 2012: So, Allan,
          If space time and infinity are "curved", we literally need to "wrap around it"???
          Couldn't resist!:>)

          I agree with you regarding subconscious/unconscious. I believe we have many levels of consciousness, and part of the sub/unconscious is intuition/instinct. I also agree that our sub/unconscious is always working to help our conscious mind grasp things in different ways than are available to the conscious mind because of limitations.

          What do you mean by "gravity warping"?

          Edit:
          I looked up "gravity warping". I'm not sure how it applies to infinity...need to sleep on it:>)
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          May 17 2012: Allen
          how do you think about this quesion:

          mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?
          Does it limit INFINITY1?
          please add you answer to Salim's reply
          Regards
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        May 17 2012: Hi Colleen

        It is mass that causes warping. Massive objects can bend the fabric of space-time. The more massive the object, the more space time gets warped around it.

        I saw a demo of this by Carl Sagan on youtube, where a heavy ball was placed on a rubber sheet, stretching the rubber fabric down around it. Then a smaller ball was rolled onto the sheet and it automatically formed an orbit around the bigger ball:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-db4iC0aHw&feature=relmfu

        Although a crude two-dimensional representation of a three-dimensional phenomenon, Sagan's demo was good enough to help clarify that the universe (and therefore infinity) closes in on itself, due to the universe's totality of mass - so infinity as a linear thing is impossible - but closed, looped infinity due to gravity warping is actually possible.
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          May 17 2012: GREAT video Allan....thanks. It's a PERFECT way to introduce a right brain dominant person to scientific information. As I said, I explored the meaning of "gravity warping", on line, and was faced with complicated explanations and it got "curiouser and curiouser"....LOL
          I understand the term better now. I totally believe in the concept of infinity, and believe I had a peek at it. I just don't know how to explain it:>)
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        May 18 2012: Hi Colleen - Sagan was great, wasn't he?!

        I would love to know more about your peek at infinity. NDE's might give some answers to vexed questions about life!

        Regards,

        Allan
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          May 19 2012: Hi Allan,
          Yes...Sagan was great!

          I am glad to share information about the NDE, either here within this discussion if appropriate and on topic, or you can e-mail me through TED.

          Keeping in mind part of the definition of infinity..."characterized by an infinite number of elements or terms"....I believe EVERYTHING we experience can give some answers to questions about life...when we listen and evaluate information with mindfull awareness.

          Some other parts of the definition of infinity...
          "Boundlessness; subject to no limitation or external determination; immeasurably or inconceivably great or extensive; being greater than any preassigned finite value".

          When I suspend limited beliefs in preassigned finite values, it reinforces the idea that we are part of the cycle of infinity here and now.

          Many people are looking "out there" somewhere, for joy, happiness, contentment, compassion, passion, infinity, etc. etc.. Just look at many of the conversations here on TED!
          In my perception, we have the ability to experience all of this HERE and NOW, in the life experience:>) That was one thing the NDE reinforced for me.

          Humans sometimes spend a lot of time and energy worrying, speculating, planning for the next event in the life/death cycle...thereby missing the moment, which is always an opportunity to learn, grow and evolve. There are folks who assign value to THEIR beliefs, and sometimes try to devalue other people's beliefs. When we let go of our need to control, we sometimes get a peek at infinity as the cycle flows...unlimited....unending:>)
  • May 12 2012: Hello again Mohammad,
    I've been away for a few days so I will try to catch up on your comments.

    We take a pretty big jump from geometry to life after death... but I do enjoy both subjects very much.
    You really get right to the "point" don't you? "What happens after we die? It's a big question that would demand a new debate I think, ..... don't you?

    I can honestly say that I am quite sure that there is a form for existence for the human being after death. A form of an angelic nature. A spiritual being. Some may say that nobody can know this for sure, that it can only be a "belief" ... But I say that you can "know" that there is a life after death. A lot of people would just call it superstition. But it is one of the worlds biggest misunderstandings to think that mankind is "only" an animal that has developed out of the lower animal forms. This is a tremendous misconception that has got most of the western scientific world under a materialistic spell.

    I wonder what you think? Could it be that our infinitely small point "our brain" expands to become the infinitely large "cosmos" when we die.... That we .... again.... become .. "one" .. the biggest number One ... with the entire cosmos !
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      May 15 2012: Daniel
      "I can honestly say that I am quite sure that there is a form for existence for the human being after death".

      A form of an angelic nature. A spiritual being. Some may say that nobody can know this for sure, that it can only be a "belief" ...

      Why spiritual being? I am one of those people who are not sure about this.

      "But I say that you can "know" that there is a life after death".

      Yes it does not necessarily needs a definition.

      "A lot of people would just call it superstition. But it is one of the worlds biggest misunderstandings to think that mankind is "only" an animal that has developed out of the lower animal forms. This is a tremendous misconception that has got most of the western scientific world under a materialistic spell."

      There might be no conflict between all these.

      "I wonder what you think? Could it be that our infinitely small point "our brain" expands to become the infinitely large "cosmos" when we die.... That we .... again.... become .. "one" .. the biggest number One ... with the entire cosmos !"

      I think we will get rid of 3D word and its limitations and new limitations emerge?
      i think neither this life is the end nor the next one?
      .
      Regards
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    May 11 2012: In relation to limitation, something is always associated with two things, namely:

    - The existence of something, and it's limited because an existence of something is dependent on the presence of another existence.

    - The existence of what can be perceived of something (property, event, and the like), and these are limited because only a few that can be enabled from the whole.

    In relation to infinite:

    - The existence of something, and it's infinite because an existence of something is not dependent on the presence of another existence.

    - The existence of what can be perceived of something (property, event, and the like), and these are infinite because all kind of those can be enabled from the whole.

    Answering that question, then:

    For those who believe in the existence of which include our existence, the existence of any of us have always relied on a larger existence, so in this sense, we can not wrap our mind around infinity.

    Similarly, we can never be fully functioning to our potential, so we are also limited for the use of our own bodily functions (imperfect).

    We can wrap our mind around infinity only if it is compared to something else, who has more limitations than we are. This can be expressed as:

    - Our mind capable to infinite because, our mind is not limited by others & we can enable the potential of our mind is greater than the average other being, in general.

    Infinite is just as simple as not limited by something, potentially or actual. Outside this understanding, in my opinion, is not real.

    Understanding of infinity should be compared with anything else, without this, the infinite is meaningless.

    Less or more ...
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      May 12 2012: Hi Bernard
      You discussion is similar to Hamzeh's discussions.
      So it is possible to uniderstand the concept of infinity throught deduction?
      And, is this the only way that our brain works?
      Regards
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        May 13 2012: Hi Mohammad

        If we had been looking for a conjecture in the deductive and it does not exist, then we conclude that these allegations are out of the deductive.

        How could we be able to browse the entire territory of deductive to ensure things are out of the deductive (an impossibility). Deductive should be leaning to the selected premise of axiomatic truth, then if an allegation was not recognized, it is beyond reality and it's an impossibility.

        Is it possible to understand the concept of infinity throught deduction? Yes, but deductives should be constructed by axiomatic, to get a clear picture about where the location of the infinite is in a logical framework, so we get a consistent definition.

        Is this the only way that our brain works? No, brain could work as a receiver for interventions from the outside of our consciousness, so that we can quickly switch to (jump to) another search point of another area (shortcut) within logical framework to more quickly recognize whether a notion of truth is indeed within the logical framework. This makes the human being has the highest ability to be able to defeat the most sophisticated machines.

        This intervention also helped us to expand the building from an existing logical framework, by establishing connections to expand the structure of the logical framework, even beyond the logical framework that is in our brain.

        How can we trace the development of the logical framework? By expanding consciousness through meditation, and saw firsthand the structure of our logical framework and interconnected to logical framework from outside ourselves, so we know exactly the truth. Or by understanding of the working and how to use thought experiment & the subconscious. And we often label the results as creative thinking, intuitive, self-evident and similar to these.

        Less or more ...
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          May 17 2012: Bernard
          how do you think about this quesion:

          mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?
          Does it limit INFINITY1?
          please add you answer to Salim's reply
          Regards
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    R H 20+

    • +1
    May 11 2012: If we could 'wrap our mind around infinity', then infinity would be finite. Pretty funny, huh? Sorry for the play on words. I just love science and math. We create these reason capabilities and think they explain everything in the universe. It's amazing to me that we have such arrogance (maybe if there were less arrogance, we could learn to get along better too). We've barely been off the planet, yet can explain the universe from here. "if we can see and measure it, it must be true! If we cannot see and measure it, it does not exist!" That's great for engineering, lousy for infinity discussions. Infinity, to me, is a concept just like science and math. Is our universe contained in other universes? Would that be finite? Are there parallel universes? Let's open our minds to the possibilities of infinite options and be free. Free to believe that our mind is finite in structure, limited to it's inherent capabilities, and the universe may have more to offer.
  • May 11 2012: Salam
    Question: "so, do we live in infinite universe(s)?"
    Last answer: "So the answer to your question is: please think over the meaning of the universe! Distinguish between matters and the potential of matters . . . . "

    My understanding of the universe is rather unfamiliar (needs to change our rational feeling):
    We do not live" IN" the universe! "WE ARE THE UNIVERSE".
    If we were not here, our (materialistic part of) universe did not exist. Of course even then there is "potential or possibility" of existence.
    I hope it is clear enough!
    regards
    • May 11 2012: I think, you nailed it " WE ARE THE UNIVERSE" !
      YES !
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        May 11 2012: Hubris? Ego?
        Or loose use of words?
        We are part of the universe, a very small part.
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          May 12 2012: HI
          so, how do you think about reality?
          Regards
        • May 13 2012: Hi, Obey !
          Just an example to make it clearer :

          "You are not stuck in traffic, you are traffic."
          - saw it on a sign while "in" traffic.
          Thadeus Frei
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      May 11 2012: Hamzeh
      So, imagine a child who will born 5 years later..
      Q1: does he know how many brothers he has?
      When he does not exist his brother(s) doesn’t/don’t exist either.
      Let's talk about the shared meaning of universe. It helps to shed light on blind spots.
      Regards
      • May 11 2012: Salam Mohamad
        Sorry,I do not catch your points.
        Are you replying to my comments?
        Regards
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          May 11 2012: Hi Hamzeh
          you can find my reply to your comment at the end of the page.
          Regards
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      May 14 2012: K Hamzeh, Natasha, Obey,
      Are you limiting yourselves? In my perception, we ARE the universe, AND we ARE also a very small part of the universe. We are everything and nothing. The universe and the concept of infinity do not limit us. Our perceptions as humans are the limiting factors. When we try to label and define something based on information we think we "know", it is usually coming from our limited human intelligence:>)

      Good example Natasha..."You are not stuck in traffic, you are traffic."
      We can embrace either perception, or both...can we not? Each perception, is limiting us to a certain idea. Infinity is unlimited, so we can be everything at the same time...or nothing.

      I like to equate it to a drop of water in the ocean...each drop of water is important to the whole. It can be seperate, and/or all interconnected.

      Or electricity, which starts out as a powerful force at the generating plant, and is seperated into our homes as a less powerful force. It is all still connected, and yet seperates at different junctures. That is how I percieve our bodies...as powered by energy which is seperate AND all interconnected:>)

      To me, this seems consistant with Aristotle's quote, which Mohammad offers in the introduction to this discussion... “It is not what has nothing outside it that is infinite, but what always has something outside it.”
      • May 15 2012: Hi, Colleen !

        " We are the universe " vision has nothing to do with limitation,
        but has a lot to do with the quantum description of the world where each electron could be precisely the same one.

        Anyway, thanks for your concern ! :)
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          May 15 2012: Hi Natasha,
          I believe that any perception can involve limitation...or not. And to me, you are all expressing perceptions in the comments above. "WE ARE THE UNIVERSE" ......
          "We are part of the universe, a very small part".... "You are not stuck in traffic, you are traffic" are all perceptions in my perception!

          I'm not "concerned"...simply participating in the discussion as I understand it. I didn't see anything about "quantum description", or "electrons" in the previous comments, and if I did, I probably would not have entered the discussion, because you probably KNOW by now that I am lacking in scientific description!!! LOL:>)

          That being said, however, I agree that "each electron could be precisely the same one", which is what I touch upon with my comment..." I percieve our bodies...as powered by energy which is seperate AND all interconnected":>)
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          May 17 2012: Dear Natasha
          i should really appreciate it if you could read Krisztian's discussion and answer the following questions:

          is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
          And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?
          Please add your comment on the top of the page.
          Regards
      • May 15 2012: Hi, Colleen !

        Frankly , I don't see anything wrong with 'being concerned '
        But if I hurt you in any way, I am sorry !
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          May 15 2012: I don't see anything wrong with being concerned either Natasha, and no, I do not feel hurt in any way...simply participating in the discussion, as I said:>)
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    May 10 2012: The concept of existence without the characteristics of quantifiability, or measurability, does not compute using human software (aka wetware). The God is of the Holy Bible describes Himself as infinite, eternal and unchangeable. So, His ways are not man's ways. He can say things like, "Before Abraham was I AM." and it makes sense. The Designer of our brains did not include the algorithm for infinity so your answer is "No".
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      May 11 2012: Hi Edward
      Q: what happens after we die?
      Regards
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        May 11 2012: Every human being has, or will experience one of two fates when their flesh dies. Some will be cast into what the Holy Bible calls the Lake of Fire where they will remain so long as Time exists. From this unspeakably horrible place there is no hope of resurrection. All others will enter in to perfect peace and rest in the presence of God where they will enjoy ever-increasing joy free from the tyranny of Time. They will know God and enjoy Him without end. So says the Holy Bible, the Word of God.
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        May 15 2012: "Q: what happens after we die?"

        Well, we will be introduced to the spiritual realm, or world. In earth-time we will 'wake up within three days. Then we will go through a process of three stages if we go to heaven. We will go through two stages if we go to hell.

        When we go to heaven (because we have learned and accepted to love goodness), all that is not good in our mind/character is taken away through a process of elinination. We let it go, it is not ours.
        When we go to hell because we love evil, the opposite happens. The good in our mind/character is taken away.

        But this is more detailed about what happens after our body dies.
        http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/documents/Die_WhatHappensWhenYou.doc

        As you may have read in my other links, I believe eternity is the state of the Divine spirit and infinity is the condition of that state. Time and space relate to matter. Eternity and infinity are Divine aspects and are in time and space, but are not limited or bound by time and space,

        There is no such thing as infinite space or eternal time.
    • May 13 2012: Edward,

      If then infinity / eternity always was and always will be.... then aren't we also standing "within" infinity / eternity at this very moment....?
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        May 13 2012: The terms "within", "always", and "standing" are terms of quantification, in this case with respect to the Arrow of Time. Infinity and Eternity are not quantifiable, so, no, we are not within infinity, nor are we outside of infinity. We cannot mark where, or when we are with respect to infinity. Remember Daniel, with the infinite and the eternal, tenses are senseless.
        • May 14 2012: Edward,

          Don't you see that Euclidian geometry falls short on exactly this. When trying to come to a describing "geometric model" of reality, it does not make sense at all.

          Now what you are saying Ed is that when I draw a line on the paper, I can never reach the line because the number of points toward that line are infinite and therefore unreachable. But my experience tells me that that theory must be wrong... simply because I CAN cross the line.
    • May 14 2012: Edward,

      The "I am" is also within you. Your own self consciousness. This is also within the stream of time as we experience the here and now. The eternal is also here and now. It has to be that way. There is no division except the one created in your mind. The short lifetime we have on earth is just a fragment of the whole within the whole.
  • May 9 2012: I think we live in an infinite universe. And Peter was correct when he said we are eternal, spiritual beings.
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      May 10 2012: Susan
      How sure are you that we are eternal spiritual beings?
      Susan (1 day ago) "We live in a finite world, meaning it will some day not exist as it does now".
      so, Shall we immigrate to another word? or do you mean that Death is not our end? so, what happens after we die?
      Regards
      • May 11 2012: We will continue to live in a different state--one that is no longer mortal; we will continue to learn and progress. So, no, death is not our end--just the end of this finite existence. As for the world we will live in--this earth will also change and take on a new form--and we will live here. As for how sure I am? As sure as I can be in this world.
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          May 12 2012: Susan
          what do you mean by "State"?
          do you mean a new dimension?
          Regards
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    May 9 2012: thinking about infinity making me nuts!!!
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      May 10 2012: HI Chetan
      thanks for comment.
      Regards
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      May 13 2012: Chetan,
      You make me laugh!!! It CAN be mind boggling...can it not?
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        May 14 2012: Colleen,
        very true!!!infinity term is for people who are mind-bloggers!!!lol!!!
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          May 14 2012: Chetan,
          Consider the definition of Infinity: "unlimited extent of time, space, or quantity".
          That is totally foreign to us as humans, because we percieve ourselves as limited by time, space and quantity, do we not? So, we are trying to define infinity based on what we think we "know".

          There are some good clues on this thread, which might help imagine infinity.
          Pranoy Sundar says..."our imagination is limited with that idea. our intelligence has to evolve more to accomodate certain idea".

          Edward Long states..." The concept of existence without the characteristics of quantifiability, or measurability, does not compute using human software"

          Daniel Hehir..."If then infinity always was and always will be.... then aren't we also standing "within" infinity at this very moment....?"

          YES, YES, YES to these statements....in my humble perception:>)

          It does not help to actually try to "wrap our mind around it" because our mind is limited at this point to understanding the LIMITED extent of time, space, or quantity".....yes?

          Sometimes, to discover something that is beyond what we think we know, it helps to suspend the thought process that we are familier with. We cannot put a square peg in a round hole. It is difficult to understand "unlimited" with our limited thought process...make any sense?
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    May 8 2012: All forms are finite.
    Like you quote only potential can be infinite.
    Being can express itself into infinite forms.
    The first choice to be limits that potential as the first dot does to the painting in progress.
    Matter reflects consciousness and moves with it which we measure as time.
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      May 8 2012: To put forward an argument, some scholars mentioned that we are surrounded by infinite elements.
      How do you think about this?
      Regarding consciousness, do you mean that our consciousness is restricted to finite variables
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        May 20 2012: To be an element it isn't possible to be infinite yet to enter infinity any element can be the entrance.
        Consciousness is like the undifferentiated light by which we can see and that reveals any shape or color in its reflection.

        What is, is one. It is nothing that appear as all things. Space/time is illusion to keep track of change.
        Anything a moment in eternal presence.
        • May 20 2012: space,,is the decay of time,,,create by three singularities of time,,one being stable...its not an element,,,wierdest thing is we look a it before we see anything else,,,but we never see is,,,it is space,,and if we could see it we wouldnt see anything else..
        • May 20 2012: and by the way i couldnt agree more if its infinte,,then you could never reach it to know...thats whats i mean in my blog on dancingzerosofeternity
        • May 20 2012: "To be an element it isn't possible to be infinite yet to enter infinity any element can be the entrance."

          Beautifully said !

          Thanks, Frans!
  • Comment deleted

    • May 22 2012: the singularity of every totality,is the totality of every singularity...science is not for finding him,,if you dont believe you cant see,,if you do you dont need to see...
    • May 22 2012: people dont respond to being told,or judged,they just become more alianated...and that would be your responsinbility as much as theyrs,,,instead show them the beauty of god by being a source of nourishment,and comfort,,people who love you,will want to know what you love...all best mate...
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    May 22 2012: I can't. I can't even really understand the meaning of a billion or a trillion.
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      May 22 2012: relax, nobody can. in fact, i think the limit is more likely around hundred thousand.
    • May 22 2012: the best picture i can paint is using pennies,,,put 4 school buses one on top of the other,,,then next to stack pennies to the same,,,height,width length,,,thats approx 1 billion pennies...times by 1000,is a billion,,,depends if tyres are flat though...lol
    • May 22 2012: but yes the bigger the number the less we really understand what it means,,,http://www.kokogiak.com/megapenny/nineteen.asp...good page to look at,,
  • May 21 2012: the mind cant be infinite,,cause it dies...did i just ruin it?
  • May 21 2012: you tell me first,,,
  • May 21 2012: they also share the same location with you...the singularity is from within...and god believes in me,how can i not believe in him
    • May 21 2012: As it was said: God is within.
      There is no 'within', but your 'within'. Nothing is external .

      "...god believes in me,how can i not believe in him "

      WOW !
      • May 22 2012: all existance is within time...and i do agree within is god,,,god is also without,he may be within us,,,but he was before us too...without external how would you define within..in the totality of every singularity,is the singularity of every totality,,,...the only within that is not external is perception...and even perception has external influence...i hope i understood...science and philosophy,,,my favourites,,, precisely general,and generally precise... i dont think i fully get what you meant,,,let me know...