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Mohammad Mohammadipour

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Are we able to wrap our mind around infinity?

Infinity. It’s a puzzling concept. Is it real, or a mathematical fiction?
Aristotle believed infinity could only be potential, never actual. To speak of an actual infinity, he argued, is to fall into logical contradiction: “The infinite turns out to be the contrary of what it is said to be,” Aristotle wrote in the Physics. “It is not what has nothing outside it that is infinite, but what always has something outside it.”

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Topics: Infinity
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Closing Statement from Mohammad Mohammadipour

Dear All
Thanks for your comments;
And, last but not the least:
Arisen to voiceless unattainable peaks
I meet no end, for all is boundless He,
An absolute Joy the wide-winged spirit seeks,
A Might, a Presence, an Eternity.

In the inconscient dreadful dumb Abyss
Are heard the heart-beats of the Infinite.
The insensible midnight veils His trance of bliss,
A fathomless sealed astonishment of Light.

In His ray that dazzles our vision everywhere,
Our half-closed eyes seek fragments of the One:
Only the eyes of Immortality dare
To look unblinded on that living Sun.

Yet are our souls the Immortal's selves within,
Comrades and powers and children of the Unseen.

Sri Aurobindo(October 1939)
Best Regards.
Mohammad Mohammadipour

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    • john naddaf

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      May 22 2012: the singularity of every totality,is the totality of every singularity...science is not for finding him,,if you dont believe you cant see,,if you do you dont need to see...

    • john naddaf

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      May 22 2012: people dont respond to being told,or judged,they just become more alianated...and that would be your responsinbility as much as theyrs,,,instead show them the beauty of god by being a source of nourishment,and comfort,,people who love you,will want to know what you love...all best mate...

  • Ed Schulte 50+

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    May 22 2012: Re "Are we able to wrap our mind around infinity? "

    The MIND ( therefore "we") is Infinate ....why try to separate it into word concepts like "infinity" and "wrap around"??

    Aristole was just repeating what Avicenna and Suhrawardī pointed out iow Mundus Imaginalis...The Universe Turned inside out etc etc

    • john naddaf

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      May 22 2012: the mind is not infinite,,,if it appears that way,thats only perception...the mind has a start point in birth,,,and a an end point at the point if death...there would be no purpose to an infinite mind,,,the mind is a processor,,,so must be accessible,otherwise whats the point...our subconscious is the database that where conscious resides,,,where lost,and forgotten memories stay,,,amongst them is awareness focusing our conscious in what seems infinite,,only because of what we've forgotten...but the mind cannot remember or has no information before life or after death,,,that would be the soul...the brain decays with rest of the body....the mind is a product of both conscious/and subconsciousness...for the mind to be infinite,so must consciousness,,,

      • K Hamzeh

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        May 22 2012: I think any physical entity (like brain and all galaxies) is limited and finite.
        On the other hand soul is not physical and is not limited to laws of physics which hold on the physical part of our world. We are not able to discover the laws of metaphysics and non-materialistic part of our world. So when we use the physical parameters like time and space about non-physical entities, simply no physical limits may be attributed to these entities and thus they seem infinite.

        • Ed Schulte 50+

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          May 22 2012: Yes but "Soul"

          is MIND as it becomes 'form' within the HUman Archetype is it not?

      • Ed Schulte 50+

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        May 22 2012: that is why I qualified my reply with "MIND" and not "mind" as you are talking about

        The former is Infinate ...were as "mind" is a dirivative of MIND and will always be linited to its positionalities ..whether or not it is holding those positioanities in the 2nd 3rd 4th or 5th diensions.

        and "we" do not "discover" anything because ALL exists in MIND already ....the best "we" can do is access and activate "creativity" ...which is prof to the "mind" of MINDS potentiality.

        • john naddaf

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          May 22 2012: creativity,,is accessed and improved mentally,but art students still study,,,psychology is studies behaviour and what causes it mentally,,,all they need is the mind,,,they still study...doesnt matter what you like to do,,,sure you could mentally analyse it,,and youd prabably,become quite informed,,,if you obssess with it you might become expert,,,but why would you,,,Einstein spent his life doing work,and wrote it down so someone could learn it quicker,and advance it...sir issac newton had no one to teach him the principia,,,he had to work it out from scratch,,,but he passed it on,,because he didnt want it to stay unimproved...ive been teaching myself science,physics for long time,,,started with analytical thought,but till i researched what i knew,,and had something established to base it,,,it was nothing more than idea,,,humanity has been around for a long time,,,before tv,internet ,or even radio,,,where people that wanted to explore their minds did with much fewer distraction,,,instead of spending years to learn what someone before you did,,find out what they knew,,,and use your mind to advance the knowledge...ten years later,,im still learning,,,doctorate would have take 8yrs,,,instead im in construction,,with hobby,

    • john naddaf

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      May 22 2012: the mind is not infinite,,,it begins at birth,and stops in death...wrap,,is not either though i do understand what you are trying to say,,,no begin,no end just goes and goes,,,but thats only relative to who is observing,,,from inside might appear as infinite,,,but from outside it can be seen therefore finite....many things are relatively infinite,,that does not mean they are,,,infinite,or infinity,is absolute,non negotiable,,,if in time and infinity is discovered where it end that doesnt mean it used to be infinite,it means never was...relative to us the mind can seem infinite,,but a tree can see us and our mind's entire time cycle from birth to death,,,the tree is not infinite either,,,time outlasts all and came before...time is infinite,,,for now
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    Debra Smith 200+

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    May 22 2012: I can't. I can't even really understand the meaning of a billion or a trillion.
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      Krisztián Pintér 200+

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      TED Translator
      May 22 2012: relax, nobody can. in fact, i think the limit is more likely around hundred thousand.

    • john naddaf

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      May 22 2012: the best picture i can paint is using pennies,,,put 4 school buses one on top of the other,,,then next to stack pennies to the same,,,height,width length,,,thats approx 1 billion pennies...times by 1000,is a billion,,,depends if tyres are flat though...lol

    • john naddaf

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      May 22 2012: but yes the bigger the number the less we really understand what it means,,,http://www.kokogiak.com/megapenny/nineteen.asp...good page to look at,,

  • john naddaf

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    May 21 2012: the mind cant be infinite,,cause it dies...did i just ruin it?

  • john naddaf

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    May 21 2012: you tell me first,,,

  • john naddaf

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    May 21 2012: infinity is more than a concept...the singularity of a black hole is infinity...time has been stretching back for nearly 14 billionb years...thats a line of infinty,,,infinity is missing thats all,,it has to be the or the universe wouldnt be the same...just that no one can find it cause it goes on forever...one thing i believe though is if we dont know where it ends,,how do we know it doesnt.....thats just thinking out loud though...theres nothing to support either way

    • K Hamzeh

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      May 21 2012: Hello John
      I would like to invite you to take look at my conversations about unlimited space and time.
      Regards

      • john naddaf

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        May 22 2012: would love to,,,

      • john naddaf

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        May 22 2012: where do i find them??

        • K Hamzeh

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          May 22 2012: Just click on my name above!

      • john naddaf

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        May 22 2012: sorry was typing reply as comments closed,,,so though id retype here...fist of all,,,nothing in the universe,,,is truly nothing,,,even empty space is something...our minds only understand the universe as required,,,in other words measurements relative to us....we cannot understand the proposed expiry date of the universe for example which is 1to the 100,,,thats 1and 100 zeros next to it,,,we cant understand it because we dont need to,,,if one day that became the price of bread,,we would adapt very quickly,,,according to accepted science the universe is expanding,,,but some particles and energy are not finite,,infact all mass and energy that are symmetrical have a conserved quantity,,that does not chance,,,that is proven,,and i could show you equation,,,but basically the reason it is conserved is because the laws of nature dont change,,,and without conserved quantity,,eventually one would outnumber another breaking the balance of the forces and youd have too much dark energy,,or too little gravity,,or might have too much energy,,,in chaotic frenzy...a better name for the universe is space time...both real,,existing,and supporting all...spacetime is the framework in which everything sits,,,gravity is caused by space time being stretched around mass creating a distortion or stretch artound the object that near by object fall into,,,unless they are havier then the opposite is true....the limits of space are predicted but unkown and unconfirmed,,,as with time...every time for example has a time before,,,even if there was no before,,that absence itself is time before time....all the forces are thought to have arisen from one during the big bang,,,and much could be said here,,but,its yet to be demonstrated accurately,,,and in time and some fine tuning it will be...as for the creator,,,your faith will find god not science...we could never understand or wrap our heads around god because god is beyond our comprehension...we only understand what is before us beyond we learn

  • john naddaf

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    May 21 2012: they also share the same location with you...the singularity is from within...and god believes in me,how can i not believe in him
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      natasha nikulina 50+

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      TED Translator
      May 21 2012: As it was said: God is within.
      There is no 'within', but your 'within'. Nothing is external .

      "...god believes in me,how can i not believe in him "

      WOW !

      • john naddaf

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        May 22 2012: all existance is within time...and i do agree within is god,,,god is also without,he may be within us,,,but he was before us too...without external how would you define within..in the totality of every singularity,is the singularity of every totality,,,...the only within that is not external is perception...and even perception has external influence...i hope i understood...science and philosophy,,,my favourites,,, precisely general,and generally precise... i dont think i fully get what you meant,,,let me know...

  • john naddaf

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    May 21 2012: also if you make sense of this,,you can make sense of sapce...look for every meaning of the words,,,theyre the only ones that work..keep thinking of zero,,,youde be amazed how much it can help you understand

  • john naddaf

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    May 21 2012: not sure what you mean by spontaneous,,,i might not do my homework before every question,,but thats because id done that previously...if im unsure or offering an opinion id tell you first,,,but sometimes with this subject matter,,it very hard to find the right word,,,thats why most physics is expressed in equation..ive spend many years learning about time space and the universe,,,ive develloped a good understanding of it,,,if you read my blog about the totality of singularitry two line within in took me around a week to organise the words in order,,,to find the words took forever,,,try repeating the sequence in order a couplde of times from memory,,,tell me how you go,,,i still stuble on it the words,,,but believe me when i say its a very good description,,,seriously love to know if you can say three or four times without reading it
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    Mohammad Mohammadipour

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    May 20 2012: Dear John
    are you fine?
    Honestly, I like your discussion...
    But, I am afraid do you write spontaneously?
    Regards

  • john naddaf

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    May 20 2012: funny thing about infinity,,unless its related to space or time,,its nothinhg more than a concept,,,cause basically we will never find out,,,,not with mind,that will buried,,but the sole ..??not sure if have the authority to answer that...but name one machine that develloped consciousness...
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      natasha nikulina 50+

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      TED Translator
      May 20 2012: 'nothing more than a concept. '
      Indeed, it's funny !
      ' Infinity' is a mind construct, mind can not penetrate !
      Any ideas , why ?
      I have mine, but would appreciate yours first :)

  • john naddaf

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    May 20 2012: consciousness has nothing to do with science,,,or to put it in a better way no one knows enough to include it,,,again its ironic because we dont know anything else,,,which i guess could classify it infinte,,,maybe i can tell you in a few trillion years...i have my oipinion on consciousness and spirituality,,,but they are my opinions,more than just opinions,,,but they must come from within...if you believe in god,,he knows you better than i do,,.
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      natasha nikulina 50+

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      TED Translator
      May 20 2012: "i have my oipinion on consciousness and spirituality,"

      Could you share ?

      'but they must come from within...if you believe in god,,he knows you better than i do,,."

      I won't go that far to equate 'infinity' and 'God' , but I guess, they share the same 'location' - 'within'
      Would you agree ?

      • john naddaf

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        May 21 2012: cant just say you have your,,,and stop there...share...
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          natasha nikulina 50+

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          TED Translator
          May 21 2012: Hi, John ,
          Knowing, by its very nature exists in a way form.
          To fix , shape the thought , mind breaks the wave function and the wave/particle quality of a 'fuzy' thought opts to a particle, hence picks up only one probability from the realm of all probabilities of a quantum wave, traps it in time and makes it real, but not true, because you can't understand something without everything.
          Something like this....:)
          But the situation is not that helpless. When mind accumulates enough data ( fractions, patterns ) it can make a reverse leap to the wave.

  • john naddaf

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    May 20 2012: infinity is very real...if you think of time it can only be created by an event,or observation,,,basically if i clap my hand,i create time,,,fake time,but still till...there will time before the time after,,and in the middle when i clap,,is a third time 0..call both times,and the zero a wave,,on its own 0 is a wave particle...dont think of zero as a circle,think of it as empty...would it have a floor,,,not if its 0,,,its infinite because its missing,,,eternity is the small one,,,if you like streching a year over an eternity...do you think youd see it??if you look at this again youd see that infinity and eternity are both absent so why not the same thing??thats because eternity grows,,,so within it it becomes less dense,,eventually evaporating,,,(maybe) infinity condenses and the smaller it gets the denser...a black is an infinity,,,eternity is dark matterr/or space and its so light no one thought it was anything for very long time...
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      Mohammad Mohammadipour

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      May 20 2012: Hi John
      Your brain-storm is an inspiring mess-discussion.
      But..i would like to extract some sentences:
      1..."infinity is very real"...Q: how?
      2...."dont think of zero as a circle,think of it as empty"…Q: did I say "zero" is a circle?..Q: why empty? Do you refer to a specific capacity? Is that the only meaning of zero?
      3,,,"its infinite because its missing",,Q: do you mean it WAS, and it IS not now?
      4…"infinity and eternity are both absent so why not the same thing"?....Q: why the same?
      5..."a black is an infinity"..Q: YES
      6.."eternity grows,,,so within it it becomes less dense,,eventually evaporating..
      7..eternity is dark matterr/or space and its so light"…(6-7) Q:I did not get you?
      Regards
      .

      • john naddaf

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        May 21 2012: the singilarity of every totality,,in the totality of every singularity???or is it just me that getsx toungue twisted
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      natasha nikulina 50+

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      TED Translator
      May 20 2012: "eternity grows,,,so within it it becomes less dense,,eventually evaporating,, infinity condenses and the smaller it gets the denser.

      Eternity = Infinity
      Eternity grows 'for the sake' of Infinity... so they are selfannihilating within itself , self consistent Nothing.
      Did I get it right ? Or at least something :)

      ".there will time before the time after,,and in the middle when i clap,,is a third time 0..call both times,and the zero a wave,,on its own 0 is a wave particle.."

      Could you elaborate on 3 time division ?
      Sounds pretty familiar thou...""Before Abraham was I AM."

      John ! Thank you very much !!!

      • john naddaf

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        May 21 2012: you got more right than most,,eternity doesnt really equall infinity,,,theyre two opposites,,,but in theory if you wanted to measure both,,,youd never finish,,,as nothing would,,,if one has no floor and one has no ceiling,,,and they both go forever,,,then forever is the same,in that its missing..eternity and infinity dont annihilate each other,,in fact they never meet,,when i say eternity grows it expanding,,as in moving outward,,dont know if it grows,,cause dont know where it ends,,.eternity stretches out,m,while infinity keeps getting smaller...look at 0.0000000....with every zero the line is streched if you stretch a rubber band,only gets thinner ,,,and the space inside that point of infinity becomes denser and heavier,,,the singularity inside a black hole is so small you can even seen it but because whats inside it has been squeezed so much it becomes so heavy light cant escape its gravity,,,for eternity think of the opposite,,ifn you had a chocolate bar and shared it with ten people
        each would get 10%share it with 100, you get 1% share the chocolate with a million..etc..
        now time..any event creates time,,i clap my hand,ive divided time in three parts,,tiome before i clapped time after i clapped and when i didso time is divided two sections divided by three points
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          natasha nikulina 50+

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          TED Translator
          May 21 2012: "...eternity doesnt really equall infinity,,,theyre two opposites..."

          They are not equal, they are the same, being opposed to each other ...
          sounds good, very good !
          Time and Space never meet, but they are bound together forever...

          You can't meet your own reflection in the mirror, though it mimics all your movements with high precision, it's you,but in reverse.
          And 'you' is always 'missing' , you fix ' you' by illusion.

      • john naddaf

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        May 21 2012: i hope i answered everything properly,,but you gave me three brain twisters at once,,,.impressive,,,if i went a little off track,,,happy to redo it...wont take as long thios time either

      • john naddaf

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        May 21 2012: eternity doesnt grow,,,ity stretches into space we cant say it grows because we dont know how big it is,,and its missing,,and eternity doesnt chance,,whatever i going to happen in eternityhas already happened,,because eternity is the absence of time and outside time space is missing...just got
        ab iam between i and b is the big bang,,,but there was only band i...not sure what you mean by 3 time division,,,is that for isolating higgs or(singularity of time)just underastood what you meant,,
        easy _____ to the left is time uninterrupted..a duality oif absolute singularity un measured..in other words its not yet time...say i clap the point of time at which i clapped isa now dividedsone of that time passed before,,and some passed after so on singularityof time becomes one before and one afterin the middle is zero,,,that i now...then you have 1_0_1,,if this is for dr hawking aswell..then 101=0 010=2 0011=01 1100=10,,,every singularity or quanta must be seperated by zero...and its only between two zeros we get 1..0 0 however is infinit so the value of zero cannot be absolute therefore 0=1-0=>0...also 0=-1+0.999...=0
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          natasha nikulina 50+

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          TED Translator
          May 21 2012: John ! Thanks for responding !

          Could you give me the link of the blog, you've mentioned ?
          Thank you !
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          natasha nikulina 50+

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          TED Translator
          May 21 2012: We go in time backwards. What we see as future is past, actually neither of those. The only 'real' thing is NOW, but it is not fixed it moves 186,282 miles per second.
          Or maybe faster.
          "... the value of zero cannot be absolute ...."
          for it is interrupted by NOW This is what we call reality. Can we say : if not the eye of the intelligent observer, the value of 0 would be absolute.?
          As it was said : let it be light !
          Does 1_0_1 mean, that only the 'reality' is not 'real' ?

      • john naddaf

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        May 22 2012: hi natasha this reply not for your last statement but the previous...i love how you connect between science,and philosophy,,,and i must tell you not so long ago i would not have been able to reply,,,youre absolutely right the mind does breakdown the wave particle,,,but its a lighjt particle,,,not infinite,,though we cant see through it...infity and eternity are missing,,,reason for theyre absence is they must be as their absence is what leave behind an infinite or eternal void interfeering with particles as energies...its the void left by infinity,and eternity that creates opposing energy ,,,and the opposable forces of the universe...not many in physics or science,,would confirm this with confidence yet...but i am certain,,,by reaserch,and observation that this is the case...and my aim recently has been to bring this to the attention of other ,with the supporting data to introduce it as accepted theory,,,and it will be,,i spent 10 years on it,,,but seeing the higgs /higgs field interacting with particles,confirmed it to me,,,its what Enstein reffered to as spooky action from a distance...very close to what youre saying,,,but infinity is what carries the particle not the particle itself

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      Mohammad Mohammadipour

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      May 20 2012: HI Obey
      OOoOopsss!!
      you deleted one of your comments, didnt you?
      So, what do you mean by the
      word "Nothing"? do you mean out of our range of perception, or..?
      regarding your defintion of Nothing, what is "some thing"? and how do we understand it?
      Regards
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      Mohammad Mohammadipour

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      May 20 2012: Dear Natasha
      thank you for your comment
      Best Regards
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    natasha nikulina 50+

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    TED Translator
    May 19 2012: Hi, Mohammad !

    "...is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
    And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?"

    Infinity is a symbol and relevant to the mindset you bring to it .
    There are philosophical/mathematical/theological/quantum mechanical /poetical... and God knows how many 'ungraspabilities' of infinity. :)Sometimes description from one domain contradicts to another. Like here in your question ; 'sets of infinity ' ; it sounds nonsense for philosophical ear for these words being put together cancel each other out in a philosophical context.
    I guess, that made Voltaire so angry :)

    If you chose to explore the mathematical infinity I'd recommend you to get acquainted with Mandelbrot set, if you are not familiar with it already.The simplest algorithm for generating a representation of the Mandelbrot set is known as the "escape time" algorithm. I am not an expert, but I hope it will help you to ask 'the right' question :)
    As for Krisztián comment, you asked me to ponder, for me it falls into the category : sounds cleaver, but what does it mean ? :) Sorry, not my cup of tea.
    I like Daniel's "The line going outward towards the left ... comes back upon itself from the right...'
    It's great !
    I can't answer your question, because for me it is a 'wrong' question ( just for me !) It suggests separation/division, but there is no division between 'inside universe' and infinity. Any division between 'in here' and 'out there' is an illusion of your mind.To comprehend infinity means to be infinity, in a sense it means to seize to be conscious of your separate self. Mystics call this state of consciousness: 'be at the moment' . They say it is open to everyone. Welcome ! :)
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      Mohammad Mohammadipour

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      May 19 2012: HI, Dear Natasha,
      To scrutinize, I would like to write the first question again:
      "Mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?"
      So, what is the problem with this question?
      Regards
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        Salim Solaiman 50+

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        May 19 2012: It is answered already that's it.....nothing wrong or right.
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          Mohammad Mohammadipour

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          May 19 2012: Salim
          Mathematically speaking, there IS a true answer for this question.
          and the answer is crystal clear..
          isnt it?
          Regards
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        natasha nikulina 50+

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        TED Translator
        May 19 2012: Mohammad !
        I don't speak mathematical language. maybe there is an equation, which holds the answer to your question, I have no clue! :)
        Watch this video
        http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/fractals-colors-infinity/
        In my language : everything everywhere is doing the same thing ...infinitely.
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          Mohammad Mohammadipour

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          May 19 2012: Natasha
          "I can't answer your question, because for me it is a 'wrong' question" Natasha
          "I don't speak mathematical language." Natasha

          why do you think the so called question is wrong?
          may be there is no problem with the question but it is not in your area of expertise.
          Regards
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      Salim Solaiman 50+

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      May 19 2012: Mohammad
      It depends on perspective....
      If you decided already to have an YES answer from all that's why you opened up the premise (in your defintion "question" ) ....it's not the place where you will get all "YES SIR" answer.
      Logically , philosophically many here answered "NO"
      Mathematically you got both "YES" and "NO"So you decide .....you are free to decide..... but repeating same thing again and again with out your own explantation or proof doesn't make your point an "infinite truth" (which is absurd).
      It's sounds just like preaching
      Kind regards
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        Mohammad Mohammadipour

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        May 19 2012: Salim
        In a fair weather day, we may talk about the differences between a premise, a question and a hypothesis.
        My last question about Infinity was a simple clear cut question.
        And it needs a true answer; in fact we come up with the answer.
        To be honest with you, I have asked this question to shed light on your question.
        I hope it helps
        Maybe the concept of infinity is not in your area of interest.
        You may find some more interesting subjects.
        Good luck
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          natasha nikulina 50+

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          TED Translator
          May 19 2012: Mohammad !
          "why do you think the so called question is wrong?
          may be there is no problem with the question but it is not in your area of expertise."

          I emphasised : for me.....(just for me ).
          Salim is right ,It depends on perspective....and sure, Math is not my domain.
          You may put it in a less benign way :
          I am wrong for the right question ,
          I don't mind :)
          Cheers

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    • john naddaf

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      May 22 2012: hi natasha,,just wanted to correct something,,,when i say time moves backwards,,,all that mean is it moves backwards in space,,,our perception of time is as it should be...we look forward to tommorow,,we look back at yesterday...the only reason time oppoese space is if they both moved in the same direction,,,time in any part of space,would be constant and unchanging,,,time moves backwards to condense like gravity,,,by the way just saw your link on infinity,,will have a look now,,,my blog is dancingzerosofeternity...
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        natasha nikulina 50+

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        TED Translator
        May 22 2012: ,when i say time moves backwards,,,all that mean is it moves backwards in space,,,
        I meant the same. It's very difficult to avoid misunderstanding here.
        I erroneously used 'we' , I guess, it caused confusion :)

        Thanks for the link !
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    Bernard Seremonia

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    May 18 2012: Hi Mohammad

    Previous http://www.ted.com/conversations/11315/are_we_able_to_wrap_our_mind_a.html?c=464603

    as you replied: {is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
    And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?}

    Already read what you've pointed, thank you

    is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity? I replaced with: is it possible to find sets that "limiting something" of "another that being limited" inside (by) something that covers all of their elements ? Yes. It's like a function y=f(x) as infinite (not limited by) its limit of a function itself.

    And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)? I replaced with: And now, is it possible to find numbers (set) that is infinite (not limited by) subset (there is no other choice) of (within) universes (something) that infinite (covers numbers) inside (by) a universe (imagining or thinking) that infinite (as far as our own knowledge) ? Yes, and the number is anything we could imagine or think of about a number, that would be the answer for this question.

    Less or more ...
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    edward long 100+

    • +2
    May 18 2012: Mohammad, I hereby honor your request for my reply to Krisztian's contributions herein. Having devoted as much time as seems prudent I have decided to let an honorable Frenchman from the past named Voltaire speak in my place. I think he would answer your question in the negative. Here it is:QUOTE:
    "The only way to comprehend what mathematicians mean by Infinity is to contemplate the extent of human stupidity.”
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      Mohammad Mohammadipour

      • 0
      May 19 2012: Edward
      It seems that the concept of Infinity is a blind spot for mathematicians as well.
      Regards
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        edward long 100+

        • 0
        May 20 2012: We all (even scientists and mathematicians) see through a glass darkly as the Bible says.
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    Roy Bourque 20+

    • 0
    May 17 2012: Mohammad,
    Within the human mind, there are a set number of brain cells, neurons, and neural connections. As an individual, we have a limited capacity for thought. There may be an infinite number of ways starting out how our neural map can turn out as we grow, but as we grow, that neural map starts to become hard-wired. When we get older, it becomes harder to change the way we think because we have created reference points that help us make sense of the world we live in.

    This being said, we can transcend our minds through meditation in which we come to communicate with a higher mind. This is the place of intuition. The higher mind is commonly referred to in Eastern philosophy as the spiritual realm. As far as I know, it has no boundaries. Is it infinite, quite possibly. Can we comprehend that? That is a question that I cannot answer. I know that our world can change if we change our mind, so we are not limited to the world we now live in.

    There is talk of parallel universes. I don't know if they occur simultaneously or if they are the infinite number of ways that the universe could evolve. Possibly they may be both. I believe that the universe may have already evolved an infinite number of times, and will continue to do so. But I find myself limited in how deep I can go into that sort of thing.
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    Bernard Seremonia

    • 0
    May 17 2012: Hi Mohammad

    Previous http://www.ted.com/conversations/11315/are_we_able_to_wrap_our_mind_a.html?c=464491

    As you replied : {how do you think about this quesion:

    mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?
    Does it limit INFINITY1?}

    Infinity = unlimited = not limited by.

    INFINITY 1 can be found (as subset) inside INFINITY 2. INFINITY 2 is infinite because INFINITY 2 covers INFINITY 1. At this state, i'd rather call INFINITY 1 as FINITE (LIMITED). INFINITY 1 is limited by INFINITY 2. INFINITY 2 is limiting INFINITY 1.

    INFINITY 2 could be a perfect INFINITE as long as INFINITY 2 is the only existence that covers anything. INFINITY 2 = PERFECT INFINITE = UNLIMITED (NOT LIMITED) BY ANYTHING = COVERS ANYTHING

    Less or more ...
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      Mohammad Mohammadipour

      • 0
      May 17 2012: Dear Bernard
      i should really appreciate it if you could read Krisztian's discussion and answer the following questions:

      is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
      And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?
      Please add your comment on the top of the page.
      Regards
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      Mohammad Mohammadipour

      • 0
      May 19 2012: Bernard
      thanks for your comment
      Regards
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        Bernard Seremonia

        • 0
        May 20 2012: Hi Mohammad

        Thank you for this conversation

        warmest

  • daniel hehir 20+

    • +1
    May 17 2012: Hey Mo.

    OK. Lets look at it this way. Infinity is an abstract spacial concept that we operate with that is based upon a false premise.

    If we go back to be marble example or better said, a sphere.

    Now, you say that the distance to the midpoint of the sphere is infinitely long
    and the distance outward, away from the sphere is also infinitely long. That the distance goes on forever. But these are false assumption in the content of the concept infinity.

    Our logical experience from our observation tells us that something here is not correct here.

    # The space "inside" the sphere...

    Because we can see the entire surface of the sphere ... Logic tells us that the midpoint of the sphere must be somewhere between a point on a dissecting line through a point on the surface of the left surface of the sphere, then passing through the midpoint and then passing out through a point on the right side of the surface of the sphere.

    Imagine that you form a ball of wax in a perfect sphere around a 20cm long string(segment of a line) Now when operating with your concept of infinity, the fact that the string passing through the ball of wax is NOT infinitely long as you can see simply because you have cut the string to a 20cm length. So, to assume that the distance to the midpoint of the sphere is infinitely long is a misconception. Your concept of "infinite" needs to be redefined. It is simply not true that the line from the surface to the midpoint has an infinite number of points along that line to the center of the sphere.

    # The space "outside" the sphere..

    Now the 2nd part of the illusion is this.
    It is not within our sense perception to see just where the string then goes when we extend it out of the ball of wax and out into "endless space", simply because we just can visualize where the thread disappears to.

    But similar to the example I have shown earlier

    0 ) I ( 0

    The line going outward towards the left ... comes back upon itself from the right...
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      Mohammad Mohammadipour

      • 0
      May 17 2012: Dear Daniel

      thanks for your comment
      Regards

      • john naddaf

        • 0
        May 22 2012: hi mohammad,,youre not that far off with inf1,and inf2...keep in mind infinity in this context is absolute,,,what most regard as infinite is only relative to the observer...like any object,no matter how small,is not infinite because for it to be infinite it must be missing,,otherwise its observeable,therefore only relatively infinite...time however..keeps preceeding,,,if you could find first time,,just observing it would be an event preceeded by time,,,there you wouldnt have inf1,,and inf2,,,just infinity...infinity must be singular,,,if you could have inf1,,,and inf2 clearly defined they are not missing Therefore not inf...time is the only absolute infinity to my knowledge todate,,,apart from the value of zero,,,but that i disagree with,,,zero always equals>0 or

    • john naddaf

      • 0
      May 22 2012: hi krisztian,,,objects of infinite size mathematically are only infinite relative to the observer,,,as with most of what is view as infinite,,,very few apply as absolute infinites,,,time is one...as time must be preceeded by time,,and any event must be preceeded by time...even the birth if time is an event splitting time into before and after,,,one of my pet peeves is assuming the big bang gave rise to time,,,even if so,,the event itself,was preceeded by non event which is before time,,and if one went back in time to measure time from the non event,,,just observing,is an event preceeded by time...
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    Krisztián Pintér 200+

    • +2
    TED Translator
    May 17 2012: "mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?"

    it is a more accessible question, but not easy. in math, there are objects of infinite size. for example sets. there are sets that has infinite number of elements.

    it turns out that yes, it is possible for a set to be infinite, and be a subset of another set. for example the set of even numbers is a subset of the set of whole numbers, yet they are both infinite. another interesting thing is that although one set is strictly a subset of the other, they are actually have the *same* size.

    it is also possible for an infinite set to be confined. for example the set of real numbers in the range 0..1 is an infinite set in a small space.

    but it is also possible that an infinite set is smaller than another infinite set. the set of whole numbers is smaller than the set of real numbers. this is not straightforward, but Cantor proved it, to everyone's surprise. since then, we know that there is a hierarchy among infinites, and this hierarchy has ... well ... infinite levels. for those who want to know more, i recommend to read about "cardinal numbers". kind of mind boggling. who said math is boring?
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      Mohammad Mohammadipour

      • 0
      May 17 2012: Dear Krisztian
      Yes…thank you for your comment
      So is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
      And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?
      Regards
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      natasha nikulina 50+

      • 0
      TED Translator
      May 21 2012: Hi, Kristian !

      Is this what you mean :

      "You can have sets of elements that are Dedekind-infinite, which is when the set has a seemingly paradoxical quality, or has a subset of its elements
      that are able to be matched up on a ONE-TO=ONE basis to each individual element within the set." ( the emphasis is mine )

      And to simplify ...

      "This paradoxical nature of infinity can be illustrated with a hotel with infinitely many rooms, where each is occupied by a guest but can still manage to accommodate a new visitor by moving each guest over one by one to the next available room."

      This is a description I can relate to :)

      I've taken it from here http://www.infinito.org.uk/
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        Krisztián Pintér 200+

        • 0
        TED Translator
        May 21 2012: yeah, something like that. but that term "dedekind-infinite" is for mathematicians only. for the rest of us, enough to call it infinite.

        infinity has many weird properties. for example there can be so many guests, they don't fit in your infinitely many room hotel. there are infinites larger than the set of natural numbers.

        easy, you say, as the whole numbers (integers) are more. but no, they are the same. even rational numbers, those that can be written as x/y, are as numerous as integers. so we have the set of rationals, which are dense, meaning that there are infinitely many of them in any interval, and yet there is exactly as many rationals as natural numbers. all the rationals fit in your hotel. you can make your rooms have rationals as door numbers, and you will have all.

        the set real numbers on the other hand is indeed much bigger. so much bigger that there is more real numbers in any interval, no matter how tiny, than the entire set of rational numbers.

        how about wrapping your head around that? :)
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          natasha nikulina 50+

          • 0
          TED Translator
          May 21 2012: how about wrapping your head around that? :)

          Next + ultra, I've got the image ....it's you who must wrap your head around how to tax the hotel :)

          Kidding ...

          Thank you very much !
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        Krisztián Pintér 200+

        • 0
        TED Translator
        May 21 2012: jeez, tough.

        the thing is, if we tax the hotel at zero percent, the amount to pay is mathematically undefined. if we tax them at any higher percent, the amount to pay is also undefined.

        my solution is to set a fixed tax, or at least a tax ceiling and a nonzero percent.

        the state solution is to enact a law that require hotels to create subdivisions if the number of rooms exceed 100000, and do separate accounting for each subdivision. doing so, the hotel has the burden and the state has the money.
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    Peter Law 30+

    • +1
    May 17 2012: You're Welcome Mohammed.
    I must congratulate you. I have been around TED for years, & this is the most well run thread I have seen. Great subject, very polite & well run. I look forward to another. Well done!

    :-)
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      Mohammad Mohammadipour

      • 0
      May 17 2012: To my dear freind Peter
      thank you for your kind comments
      Best Regards.
      Mohammad Mohammadipour
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    Feyisayo Anjorin 50+

    • 0
    May 17 2012: If you can consider the infinite possibilities encased in the human mind, and more importantly if you understand the meaning of infinity, then you will know that there are operations of nature,time,distance,space and light that are simply incomprehensible to the human mind.
    Humans, as individuals, and as a whole seems small and insignificant in the grandeur of nature. Humans may try to dominate nature with its technology and knowledge; but the fact that we are powerless against the consequences of our actions reminds us that we are simply human.
    And there is a lot that is beyond our reasoning.
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      Mohammad Mohammadipour

      • 0
      May 17 2012: Dear Feyisayo
      .. You are right…hmm...Ooh my god, I have forgotten what I wanted to say. Sorry my Alzheimer…you know...this is beyond my reasoning..
      Aha...No problem. ..Take care...
      Regards
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      Colleen Steen 500+

      • 0
      May 17 2012: Feyisayo,
      I do not believe that infinite possibilities are "encased in the human mind". If they were, then they would not be infinite...would they? In my perception (I think science agrees), the human mind is a "carrier" of ideas and concepts.

      I agree that "there are operations of nature,time,distance,space and light that are simply incomprehensible to the human mind"....at this time in our evolution.

      Understanding as much as we can at any given time is how we move forward with evolution, and understanding does NOT mean dominating. In my perception, it means working WITH those "operations of nature" in harmony.

      I don't believe that we are "powerless", and I DO believe there are consequences of our actions. It is by moving toward understanding as much as we can at any given time, that we learn more about the consequences of our actions. When we say we are "powerless", we become stagnant.
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    Feyisayo Anjorin 50+

    • 0
    May 17 2012: We as humans should always be humble to admit that not all things can be comprehended by our brain.Infinity exists, but if there is something that can be fully grasped by the human brain,then it is definately not infinity.
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      Mohammad Mohammadipour

      • 0
      May 17 2012: Hi Feyisayo

      "We as humans should always be humble to admit that not all things can be comprehended by our brain."

      it not a matter of being humble it is a scientific curiosity.
      We have talked about meaning making and "Fully Graseped Issue". You may check it.

      "Infinity exists, but if there is something that can be fully grasped by the human brain,then it is definately not infinity."

      How sure are you that if it is comprehensible concept, it is not Infinity?
      Regards
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      Colleen Steen 500+

      • 0
      May 17 2012: Feyisayo,
      How humble is it to say or believe... "if there is something that can be fully grasped by the human brain, then it is definately not infinity". How or why do you know (or think you know) that?
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      Colleen Steen 500+

      • +2
      May 17 2012: Feyisayo,
      Here are some insightful words, spoken by Nelson Mandela, a very humble person in my perception, at his inauguration in 1994.

      "Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God. Your playing small does not serve the world. There is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. We are all meant to shine, as children do. We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us. It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone. And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. As we are liberated from our own fear, our presence automatically liberates others.”

      Whether or not one believes in God, it is the message that is important....in my humble perception. To explore beyond what we think we know, including and not limited to infinity, simply means that we are living the life journey to the best of our ability:>)
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        Mohammad Mohammadipour

        • 0
        May 17 2012: Colleen
        how do you think about this quesion:

        mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?
        Does it limit INFINITY1?
        please add you answer to Salim's reply
        Regards
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          Colleen Steen 500+

          • 0
          May 17 2012: My dear Mohammad,
          I think it is a GREAT question! Being a person who was told by medical professionals that I should not be alive...it's a miracle, I think/feel that ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE:>)

          That being said, one thing that has always been elusive to me is mathematics. I am not enough interested in math to pursue it, so I am challenged in that area.

          There is a theory that anything can be solved, resolved or explained with math....is there not? I believe it may be possible, and not by me!!! LOL:>)

          I will leave my answer in this spot, rather than adding to Salim's reply, simply because it doesn't seem of much value in response to your question....thanks for asking anyway:>)
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        Mohammad Mohammadipour

        • 0
        May 18 2012: Dear Colleen
        i should mention that your contribution is like a valid signature on this discussion.
        Best Regards
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    Krisztián Pintér 200+

    • 0
    TED Translator
    May 17 2012: the fact that some people claim we can comprehend infinity underlines the fact that they can't comprehend infinity.
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      Mohammad Mohammadipour

      • 0
      May 17 2012: Hi Krisztian
      …"the fact that some people claim we can comprehend infinity"
      Q1: Who do you refer to?

      …"some people claim we can comprehend infinity underlines the fact that they can't comprehend infinity."

      Q2: Why not? Is Infinity something that you have comprehended it, and it is different from their comprehension?
      So, what are the differences?
      Regards
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      Colleen Steen 500+

      • +1
      May 17 2012: We don't ever really know what another person can or cannot comprehend. Some people can comprehend the concept of infinity. And there certainly are differences of opinion regarding what infinity may be...or not:>)
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    Salim Solaiman 50+

    • +2
    May 16 2012: If mind can wrap it up how it then remains infinity.....?
    Pondering about the main premise itself??????
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      Krisztián Pintér 200+

      • 0
      TED Translator
      May 16 2012: touché. the topic can be closed now.
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      Colleen Steen 500+

      • +1
      May 16 2012: Salim,
      We can stretch our minds to infinity while trying to "wrap it up":>)

      Krisztián,
      That looks like "in the box" thinking:>)
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        Krisztián Pintér 200+

        • +1
        TED Translator
        May 16 2012: thinking inside an infinite box is not a limitation! :P
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          Colleen Steen 500+

          • 0
          May 16 2012: You make a good point...but...I don't think infinity is bound by boxes of any kind:>)
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          Salim Solaiman 50+

          • +1
          May 17 2012: Colleen , I feel that's a good witty response of Krisztian........we need some fun even in the toughest discussion.......:)
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          Colleen Steen 500+

          • 0
          May 17 2012: Yes Salim....I LOVE Krisztián's sense of humor, and it definitely is fun to have fun:>)
          Do you think this is a tough discussion?
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          Salim Solaiman 50+

          • +1
          May 17 2012: Colleen
          With my naiveness when I can participate in any discussion that's definitely not a tough one ....that's my measuring scale.
          Well being naive can join a heated discussion but not a tough one :)
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          Colleen Steen 500+

          • 0
          May 17 2012: Dear Salim,
          I'm afraid I have to disagree with you....there is a first time for everything!!! :>)

          I do not agree that you are naive. You offer a LOT of insightful comments, and I LOVE the fact that you often say so much with so few words:>) Your kindness, intelligence, insight and sense of humor are appreciated:>)

          I have my mind well wrapped around that idea, and it is infinitely true...in my humble perception:>)
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          Salim Solaiman 50+

          • +1
          May 18 2012: Colleen
          Wow.....Disagreement also can be such Delightful ......???
          Your overly generous disagreement made me overwhelmly obliged.
          Have a lovely day.

          P.S. Sorry for abusing REPLY button of Krisztian.....as I had no option for the sack of continuity
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          Colleen Steen 500+

          • 0
          May 18 2012: Honestly Salim, I sometimes feel naive at times when the conversation moves to science/math perspectives. And I also know that we are all different and have different information to offer:>)

          I believe we can maintain joy and delight even when disagreeing. This, to me, is part of the cycle of infinity. While folks are trying to understand infinity by way of numbers, which I respect and am interested in, I use a practical application.

          If we look at parts of the definition of infinity, we see...
          "Boundlessness; subject to no limitation or external determination; immeasurably or inconceivably great or extensive; being greater than any preassigned finite value;characterized by an infinite number of elements or terms".

          We can "wrap our mind around infinity" using an "infinite number of elements or terms", and I believe we are living the cycle of infinity HERE...NOW. So, I percieve the possibilities to connect with that theory in every moment of my life.

          Disagreements are often bound by limitations, expectations and external determination. When we bring joy and respect to disagreements, it changes the dynamic of the interaction, thereby causing it to be "greater than any preassigned finite value".

          When we bring this concept into every aspect of our life experience, we are living in, and exploring the concept of infinity. It is not "out there" somewhere...it is here and now....we are part of it.....we contribute to it in every moment of our lives. I understand that this may be difficult for our math/science left brain dominant friends to grasp:>)

          I am a simple person...uncomplicated...and I find joy in considering an "infinite number of elements or terms". In my humble perception, when we are only looking at answers in terms of math, science, or any other limitation, we are missing some of the important elements:>)
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          Salim Solaiman 50+

          • 0
          May 19 2012: Colleen
          I can't agree more (unable to give you delightment of disagreement , sorry :))
          In other post you talked about "exploring" mind....again have to agree..:D
          Without any comparison between the persons who said ......I try to use tonics which seems to be very healthy (to me) those are
          "Know Thyself".........
          "Stay Hungry, Stay Foolish".......
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        Salim Solaiman 50+

        • +2
        May 17 2012: Yes Colleen we can and should stretch our mind.......
        The moment that stretched mind wraps something called infinite that point it loses it's infiniteness.......:)
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          natasha nikulina 50+

          • +1
          TED Translator
          May 17 2012: Beautifully said. Salim !
          Everything that is named/understood automatically starts to lose its infiniteness......
          but...
          no matter how 'ungraspable' what you are thinking at the moment can be, the very act of thinking creates new connections in your brain and at some point it can make a leap.
          But you can't tell what you've got :)
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          Colleen Steen 500+

          • +1
          May 17 2012: I agree Salim and Natasha,
          Sometimes, as soon as we (humans) think we "know" something, we sometimes stop exploring, in favor of thinking we "know". Personally, I like the fun of the exploration, and do not need to label or catagorize anything, thereby leaving an open door for an infinite exploration:>) I LOVE learning, and the one thing I think I "know" is that there is always another level of learning:>)
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        Salim Solaiman 50+

        • 0
        May 17 2012: Hi Natasha....
        Yeap I agree....& thanks for your compliments

        Well you are talking about the "Eureka" moment of Archimedes :)

        What you mentioned as the moment of "ungraspability" may also can be felt like moment of infinity.... thats my feeling.

        P.S. Sorry had to steal REPLY button of Colleen
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          natasha nikulina 50+

          • 0
          TED Translator
          May 17 2012: Hi, Salim !

          "Eureka" moment " has a lot to do with a 'leap', I guess :)
          It is a moment of integration; an act of knowing. Knowing has no voice for it is a kind of non-dual state and you need mind with its capacity to create recognisable patterns to 'convert' a flash of insight into symbols, equations, poetry...anything, that has 'extendedness' in Time.
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      Mohammad Mohammadipour

      • 0
      May 17 2012: HI Salim
      i would like to ask a question:
      mathematically speaking, is it possible to find INFINITY1 inside INFINITY2?
      Does it limit INFINITY1?
      Regards
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        Salim Solaiman 50+

        • +1
        May 17 2012: Hi Mohammad
        I am still pondering about main premise as I told earlier.....your this question is nothing different from that.....

        Logically when something can limit anything then that no more can be called infinity from that moment ..

        Please follow Krisztian & Colleen's post above......Colleen answered your this question replying to the witty response of Krisztian.
        Thanks
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          Mohammad Mohammadipour

          • 0
          May 17 2012: Salim
          i should mention that,
          the reseach question has a hypothesis and null hypothesis.
          the title is a question and not a premise.
          regards
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        edward long 100+

        • 0
        May 17 2012: In order for Infinity 2 to exist it would be necessary for Infinity 1 to honor an impossible boundary. There can "be" only one Infinity, or Eternity.
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        Salim Solaiman 50+

        • 0
        May 17 2012: Hi Mohammad
        Thanks for your teaching.....
        Despite I already have a dull idea of null hypothesis.
        However a premise may come as a question as well...
        That's my understanding, any concern about that? I am open please prove your QUESTION.
        Regards

      • Terry Harman

        • 0
        May 17 2012: Maths isn't my strong point but mathematically it is possible to to have one infinity within another, the example that immediately springs to mind is the Koch snowflake which is a type of fractal. Here is the wiki link which includes plenty of diagrams and animations to help with visualisation

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_snowflake

        You can see that the inifinate perimeter of the Koch snowflake can be imagined within an infinite space outside the snowflake. With regards to the original question as well it is certainly the nearest I can come to wrapping my mind around infinity.
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          Mohammad Mohammadipour

          • 0
          May 17 2012: Hi Terry
          i should really appreciate it if you could read Krisztian's discussion and answer the following questions:

          is it possible to find infinite sets of infinity inside an infinity?
          And now, is it possible to find infinite numbers of infinite universes inside an infinite universe (mind)?
          Please add your comment on the top of the page.
          Regards
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      pranoy sundar 20+

      • +2
      May 18 2012: mathematically there is only one infinity and if something has been ever equlled once to infinity, any other mathematical operation on that, with any numbers other than infinity itself is infinity. like, infinity + 1 is also infinity. and that doesn't mean, infinity is less than infinity + 1. this can be made more clear if you think of infinity as a constant number, if its constant its not infinity. infinity is never ending and with no boundaries.
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