- mark johnson
- Leesburg, FL
- United States
CEO Life To The Brim, Inc, Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Prisons, Retired
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Do we Ignore incarcerated men, women and juveniles or help Restore them back into community?
I am recent retired Department of Justice employee (Federal Bureau of Prisons)and Dream Coach. Part of my life's purpose is to Inspire, Impact, Empower and help Transfrom those in the space I occupy. Understanding that rehabilitation does not happen just by incarcerating a person, but actually takes place when the individual recognizes the need to change from the inside.
The likelihood of this happening is when (society) the institution create and provide programs for the inmate to participate in while incarcerated. Is such an idea grandiose? And if not what type of programs would cost effective and cognitively meaninful?
Sue O'Connor
So in response to your question Mark, we don't ignore because its better for them and better for our society.
www.bridgeproject.ymca.org.au
Colleen Steen 500+
It appears to be similar to the "Diversion" and "Reparative" programs we have in this area...based on restoritive practices.
Sue O'Connor
Colleen Steen 500+
Based on the information you supplied, it really sounds like you are using many of the same practices.
The "Real Justice" information is available on line, as well as books, workshop materials, training opportunities, etc.
www.realjustice.org/About-Us.html
Another book/program that I found very useful is "Houses of Healing" by Robin Casarjian..."A Prisoner's Guide to Inner Power And Freedom".
Actually, this was introduced to me years ago by one of the inmates who happened to be reading it, at the time we were involved in another program. It's a great gift, in my perception, and used in at least a couple facilities as a requirement for parole.
The book stands well alone as guidence for offenders, families, administrators, and anyone seeking to change destructive behaviors. There is also a workbook and educational materials which facilitate workshops....available on line.
"Prisons are now dark places, Houses of Healing is a book that will open up a new vision for those who are in search of a brighter day. Grab hold of this opportunity"
(Joe Corbett, former inmate, Northeast Correctional Center)
"This is mandatory reading for anyone seeking to change destructive behavior. Using the suggestions in Houses of Healing, you can transform a negative lifestyle into a positive journey that excludes drugs, alcohol, violence, and (hopefully) prison".
(Arnie King, inmate, Baystate Correctional Center)
I found it helpful to use practices and ideas from both of these books/programs in all other programs I facilitated.
Colleen Steen 500+
Here are links to Vermont's Cognitive Self Change, Diversion and Reparative programs:
http://www.vtfa.com/publications/fifteenyear.pdf
http://doc.vermont.gov/justice/restorative-justice
http://www.atg.state.vt.us/issues/court-diversion.php
And again...it appears that you are using many of the same practices in your programs:>)
Michael Froemmcke
Colleen Steen 500+
Yes, writing comments on TED may be productive, depending on what a person's intention is...don't you think? "Productive" may mean different things to different people. To me, it means contributing respectfully, with good intent to our societies:>)
John Dunbar 10+
Colleen Steen 500+
I agree with your comments....especially... "more rehabilitation, less punishment". The environments many offenders grow up in, as you insightfully recognize, often do not encourage different choices. You're right...they didn't choose the experiences they had as children. One of the main focuses in the "cognitive self change" sessions I co-facilitated, was to let them know that we understand that they did not have choices as children, but as thinking/feeling adults, they DO have choices.
They were often born into a cycle of violence, abuse and crime, so it was what they learn as children. They were often abused, and learned behaviors that are abusive to others...again repeating the same destructive cycles. More punishment is not going to change those behaviors, it is simply going to reinforce them.....I agree.
I also agree that "other countries treat their prisoners far differently"...some better, some much worse.
John Dunbar 10+
Colleen Steen 500+
I agree...a lot of people are busy with life, and I also think/feel that many people don't know what to do about the continuous cycle of violence and abuse, so that holds people back from doing anything. One of my life philosophies, is...If I'm not part of the solution, I'm part of the problem.
The privatization of our jails, prisons, correctional facilities and detention centers is NOT helping the situation. There is absolutely NO incentive to rehabilitate or restore offenders if the "business" is going to decrease the number of inmates in the facility.
My father was a violent abusive man who never landed in jail because he was a law enforcement officer! He happened to be on the "right" side to avoid incarceration! I saw the impact his behavior had on his family, and on his own life experience, which is why I started volunteering to work with abused women and children. It was a natural step (in my perception) to also work with men who were incarcerated.
I was interacting with an offender on a one-on-one program, and we seemed to be making progress. He was 32yo, and had been in and out of jail since he was 14. In our sessions, I was often reinforcing this idea of choices. One day, he looked at me kind of bewildered and asked..."why didn't anybody ever tell me this all these years"?
Just when I felt that we had a HUGE break through, I showed up for our session one day and he was gone. At first, the administrators wouldn't give me any information about him...they were being rather secretive! I finally found out, he was transfered to another facility where they did not have the program we were having success with...a higher security facility, which means there were more higher level offenders!
In the six years I volunteered with the dept. of corrections., I actually experienced more frustration with the administrators, than the offenders. The system IS NOT WORKING well, and until we change the paradigm, we will continue to get the same results!
Jason sinclair
Colleen Steen 500+
TOM CAVANAUGH
Edan East
I have gained an appreciation for this opportunity and the TED world.
I wish out of this we could in some way implement change... I hope to personally by utilizing my education and expereince to continue on the path I found myself on when I saw inside the world of those living right here in my community that expereinced life so differently.
Lee Bruce
Colleen Steen 500+
How does it serve our community to ignore some of them? It costs $60,000 - $80,000 per year, per person, to keep them in jail. Is it better to continue paying that money and ignore them? Or would it be more efficient/productive for all of us to help them be contributing members of the community?
If they are in jail for a long time and we ignore them, it is a financial drain on our economy. If they are released and we have ignored them, they often re-offend. What do you think about this?
Lee Bruce
Colleen Steen 500+
I believe every human being is "worthy" of a chance to be a contributing member of our communities, and I also believe we all have the opportunity to support each other in that effort. Nothing is impossible, unless we believe it to be so. I've seen enough people change their lives, so I know it is possible.
In my perception, keeping people in jail, ignoring them, without an attempt to support them with some life changes, is simply a financial drain. It is less expensive, and more logical, reasonable, and compassionate, to "spend" our time, money and energy helping offenders to be contributing members of our world.
Edan East
It sounds harsh, but it is neccesary to reduce the victimization and exploitation in our society. Stats show that of the offenders a small 8 to 12 % commite 70 to 80% of the crimes. getting those 8 to 12% is key to truly effecting crime control and public safety.
We need to spend our money wisly... rehabilitate those that are rehbilitatable and incarcerate those that are not.... This is not accomplished with the three strikes law. those that respond to marginalization with criminal activity are not sociopaths, and when we return them to a marginalized life will again commite crime... so figuring out who the 8 to 12% are and incarcerating htem is important, changing society to reduce the marginalization of so many members of our very wealthy society for the rest is the long term key to truly helping the rest.
Colleen Steen 500+
I understand that not all members of society will change, and I have expressed that idea.
I am aware of the "stats", and I agree with you on many counts, as I have expressed on this thread.
Michael Froemmcke
Lee Bruce
Colleen Steen 500+
Jeff Fisher
now all google al gore jeff fisher world peace forever
I jeff bootstraps fisher never stop
Jason sinclair
The ideas of creating programs while incarcerated is one good idea. One needs to look forward to a future and with the advent of finding meaningful work due to criminal history further diminishes hope and leads the perpetual cycle of crime through having opportunities available (through prison contacts and also through acquired knowledge)
The best systems i have seen involve reflective therapy. They are where meaningful interactions take place by helping others. In other words giving the person the opportunity to make up for what they have done wrong. You can imprison a man all you want; you can torture him, you can demean him, make him wear a uniform and make him walk the line but you can never imprison his soul and it is up to him and him alone to make the decision of reformation.
Those programs where you see older men warning youngsters about the dangers of a life of crime are an excellent example. I believe if you followed the statistical rate, you would find a lot of those men are less likely to be re-offenders compared to the general population.
Edan East
Jason sinclair
One thing i think we could talk about further is child abuse. Talking to people in prison and incidental in setting, one gets the distinct impression that almost every one suffered some form of child abuse. This can broken down into a number of areas. Men who were emotionally abused by mothers as children, generally fall into crimes against women such as rape and violence against partners. Men who were sexually abused by men as children are usually bank robbers, murderers and highly violent offenders (could be referred to as psychopaths). People who are psychologically tortured are usually drug addicts and mentally disturbed. Some people can handle these types of experiences and will not go to prison/commit overt crimes, but the personality types (usually very sensitive people) who do are the ones we are talking about.
The key factor in all this is that the person who has been abused feels let down by society. Most kids are abused (of the non-sexual types of abuses) in public places. The child feels like there is a conspiracy against him when no one defends against the abuse. How many of you have seen a parent screaming at their kid in a shopping center and have done nothing about it? end of word limit. to be cont....
Jason sinclair
I met one young person who was sexually abused by his uncle for a number of years. One day the boy defended himself and stabbed his uncle with a knife a number of times until he was dead. The abuse was not just sexual but also mental in that the boy was told that if he mentioned anything he would be physically harmed. The boy was found by police. The media did a story on how movies influenced him and everyone was happy to put the boy in jail for a very long time. He was put on remand in a prison system in which sexual abuse is rife and did not defend himself by making note of the sexual abuse for obvious reasons. From his perspective, social workers, layers, judges should be able to work the obvious out and of course he would be let down. This young boy would live in a system which society (including the media) had condemned him to. Is he going to have a healthy attitude towards society when he leaves?
Another man who was put in for fraud and basically a greedy person on the other hand, learns that by becoming a Christian a judge would be more favorable for early release. While inside, he plans not to get caught next time. His plan involves taking a bank manager's family as hostage and chopping off the fingers of his wife over a mobile phone until the bank manager opened a vault. This man gets early release because he has become a born again Christian. He has played the game that suits people's ideas of what reality is. Sure enough within a year news reports come over that a bank manager was taken hostage in similar circumstances. Perhaps a coincidence? Maybe someone else picked up the idea? Who knows?
Jason sinclair
A lot of inmates found this law system better than the one offered outside because it is black and white. It is known. The law system is full of grey areas and you constantly see people with money evade justice or create it so justice favors them and their situation. The law has become very complicated and supports those that have money. The treatment of poor people in the US justice system really is a joke... further perpetuating distrust.
Now the question being asked here is how do we restore these people back to society?
It is not an easy question and has a number of problems. I believe everyone should work together on this. Social workers have great insight but often are taken advantage of. Prison guards probably have the best insight after prisoners themselves, however have worked with structures whereby its impossible to reform. Prisoners need to get over themselves and their past hurts and stop trying to hide it all by acting tough. It's their actions which create harm and they need to take responsibility. They need to make up for what they have done wrong and not just spending time in prison. They need to go out and help others.
We all make mistakes and all mistakes can be rectified. There is not a crime which can not be made up for.
So Mark johnston has a good goal. He is retired but yet still continues his mission to empower and to transform and i think that is a very valuable goal indeed.
Colleen Steen 500+
I agree with everything you write so clearly and well articulated. I'm wondering if you are doing anything within the justice/correctional systems at this time?
Are you familier with the "Real Justice" program, which began in Australia? If so, what do you think about it?
Edan East
Yes a lot of inmates are quick to figure out the system. The system is deeply and inherently flayed.
I do not know off hand aboout the real justice program, but it sounds like a retrebution based program and those do not hold a high incedence of overall success. the success in those is for the victim.
we need to follow evidence based treatment. if we are not then we are just perpetrating a fraud on society and the inmates.
Looking at the childhoods of thes men is often tragic. that is why the solution needs to look at a systemic or societal solution. It is a fact that living in the poorer neighborhoods tend to see more abuse. this is a no brainer, where people are under increased pressure to survive, this creates an environement at increased risk for all kinds of problems... this trickles down to the children. one study found that the children growing up in Watts, CA show a higher incendence of postramatic stress disorder than children in Bhagdad Iraq. So what do we expect out of those children when they grow up...
The issues are complex and need shifts and major overhauls in many arias befor we will see the change that is neccesary.
Colleen Steen 500+
I'm surprised you are not familier with the "Real Justice" program. It is actually a program facilitating restorative practices, and has been very successful throughout the world. It shows evidence of benefits for the victim, offender and the community.
I served on the reparative board for years, also served as a mediator within the program, and we had many successes. The program is an alternative to jail time, takes into account the offender's background, the impact on the victim, their families and the community. Based on what you have written on this thread, it sounds like this program might satisfy your goals.
Take a look...this link will link to several others, where you can find information about this program, contacts, calender of events/training sessions, books and workshop materials, etc. etc. etc.
www.realjustice.org/About-Us.html
Jason sinclair
Colleen: Thank you. I am not or have ever worked in the Justice/correctional system. However, i have helped many people who are a part of the system, especially those who are post incarcerated. I suppose the best way to describe this is by coincidental meetings.
What i represent is someone who doesn't fit the idea of what prisoners become. Not only did i not become a re offender, but i went to university and received high honors, started my own business and have been in control of multi thousands of dollars while maintaining very high levels of integrity. I have used the positive aspects of my experience to my advantage or converted the negative aspects into positive aspects. For instance, having faced many life threatening experiences where i was certain i was going to die, i can tolerate massive amounts of confusion and aggressive attacks without loosing my cool. I can be threatened with death and it doesn't phase me as much as it would someone else. I also learn valuable tools like the best way to get what you want to achieve is through patience.
For me, I stand as an example and that is the strongest and most potent form of enabling change in others. I do this not because of societies merit but rather because of spiritual reasons. It doesn't seek instant results... it is a seed that is planted.
Colleen Steen 500+
I agree with you...there are OFTEN instances where people make statistics fit a particular agenda. Statistics are a valuable tool when used appropriately, and can be easily misused.
I noticed, in one of your comments that you went to school after being incarcerated, and it seems that you have used your experience to learn, which is why I asked if you were involved with corrections now. You are very articulate, have learned some important life skills, and are a great example and role model for what CAN happen.
Edan East
Yes statistics can be falsified, that is why it is imoprtant to know mre about the studies, which when you are reading a journal paper which gives all the info, theory/hypothisasis, ltierature review, methodology, conclusions, and limitations, the validity of the conclusions can be easily accertained. It is because of this "faking of Stats" that the research went in the direction it did for the past 40 years. in the 1970 Robert Martinsen wrote an article that was taken to say "Nothing Works" in corrections. He was interviewed on 60 minutes and at the time the right and the left wanted change and to further their agenda, Both sides used this to support the shift in corrections to a "Get Toough" agenda. Palmer, a leading researcher and university professor took this statment as a challenge, he wanted to find out if anything did work, if something did, then what, when and with whom. Martinsen having been caught up in his own ego and running on fame was ashamed of himself and discredited within the research community for not following scientific proticol and jumped out his aprtment window in front of his teenage son, to his own death.
From that paper our correctional system shifted. prior to that shift from the 1915 when we started keeping records to 1970s the "rate" of incarceration remand about the same, fluctuating slightly following societal events such as wwII. then with that shift in policy the rate started to rise, from a rate of about 100/100,000 to the last stats of 968/100,000. that is an increase of about 1000%. now this was a get tough on crime agend and policy, and yet the crime rate did not go down...
Edan East
Colleen... I do know restoritive justice models and know them to be just like what Jason said not something that works for everyone...
The issue I hear the most is people thinking that they can ask someone that has gone through the system to know what works. That person may know what they beleive what worked for them but it is far more complecated than that..
so what does work... with the most robust results is to follow evedence based practices, which this supports the rehabilitation model. then use a rehabilitation program that follows the Principles of Effective Intervention.
Having said this, this is only one small part of the problem... this will just reduce the offender return rate, we also need to address policies wihtin society that set this up in the first place, like get tough, and three strikes law. Except sociopaths all people want to live a life of personal control and to be rewarded for a days work with a days pay. this is not happening in the USA. and I can tell when ever I hear of crime rates going up that there are issues of equity withing that society. Equity is the strongest indicator effecting homicide rates, highschool drop out rates, teen pregnancy rates, mortality rates, and a couple others. that is why Penilosa was able to effect the homicide rates by .....
Edan East
So the issue of do we ignor, yes on the one hand and no on the other...
we ignor the many wrongly incarcerated that are truly victims of a society that allows for one man to be higher valued based on his worth in $,
we do not ignor them once they have been there so they can never get out of the system, case in point, on one of the projects I worked on last year I was talking with a Parole Agent and an FBI agent and the PO said quite proudly that "Only one parolee has ever successfull gotten of her caseload and been released from parole" and of that one parolee, she took the credit for his success, but did not see the rest as her failure. As I have worked within the system and gone back to school and earned a BA and an MA, with honors in both, I have observed this attititude throughout the system. again we know what you are ost likely to do based on your 1st) Attitude, 2nd) Accociates, 3rd) Personality, 4th) History and so on, this is true of those oin the system too and as was seen so clearly in the Standford Prison experiment, we shift our moral compass to fit the role. Even Dr. Zimbardo failed to see the harm that was occuring, it was his girlfriend who showed up to she how things were going that saw the harm and told him he had to stop the experemnet.
Edan East
A foot note here, we do need to incarcerate the sociopaths... the Philip Gauridos and the Richard Allen Davis's... they are who the system is supposed to be for... we shifted a war on crime to a war on drugs to a war on poverty, not realizing we were targeting the people rather than the issue. we can stop poverty today by simply shifting how big business and corperations are allowed to victimize their workers. 30 years ago the average CEO made about 30 times what his average worker made, that was an equitable sharing of the fruits of the labor of all involved. today the average CEO makes about 300 times what his average worker is making, and that worker is expected to put out more product at a fster rate and to be higher quality.... We have marginalized so many and then we wonder why there are problems for those at the bottom...
As I said this is a complex issue, but it is one with solutions... the opeple that get into positions of power need to be accountable for what they do...
Colleen Steen 500+
You say..."Jason... you are a nice example of the enomily, it is also the unfortunate standard that is held up to measure the rest and give credence to the system..."
There is nothing "unfortunate" about the standard Jason lives by, as he has expressed it here....there is NOTHING unfortunate about what he has done with his life, and to criticize it in that way is ridiculous. A person who has gone through the system is one of the BEST resources, in my opinion.
First you said you were NOT familier with the Real Justice program, but it probably doesn't work anyway...now you say you "do know restoritive justice models". NOTHING works for everyone Edan, and in my perception, everything and anything is worth a try. You keep dismissing ideas and contradicting yourself right and left.
You write..."So the issue of do we ignor, yes on the one hand and no on the other..."
WELL THAT'S PRETTY CLEAR!!!
What exactly would you like to gain from this conversation?
Jason sinclair
It must have been in the early 1980's.
I think it was very embarrassing and i wasn't really ready for it.
I think if it is given as a choice then it will be very effective and i think the key parameter is choice.
If a judge imposes it as part of a sentence i think it can backfire.
If the offender could have the ability to go off and state what they did wrong in their own time and draw their own conviction/punishment and how they were going to create restitution then i think it is a very potent tool. Obviously, there are a lot of problems to be overcome in such a situation. The program has probably matured well. I shall read more about it.
Australia is an interesting case study because the government involvement is a lot stronger than the US. The Australian government traditionally is more of a mix between socialist and capitalist societies. We have a very strong social welfare system. We also have a history of criminality, being basically a prison state at inception. That is of course separate from the traditional owners who have inhabited the country for 40,000 years.
A society i believe, should be judged not by the public relations campaigns they push but how they treat their weakest members. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. Ironically that is also a criminal saying... " a lock is only as strong as its weakest point" another valuable lesson on security.
At the end of the day, choice for reformation cannot be pushed. A society which has its long term interests at heart is patient. I think a key ingredient is on the one hand supporting those who want to make change and rectify their mistakes and on the other maintaining a strong hand of law on those who don't. It is here where a lot of problems arise and having people who are wise in positions to make decisions valuable.
Colleen Steen 500+
I realize you are from Australia...I looked at your profile:>) That is why I asked you if you are familier with the "Real Justice" program, which was starting to bloom in Australia in the 80s'.
Not everyone IS ready for it, and it can be embarrassing because it encourages offenders to be accountable for their actions. If one is not ready to be accountable, the program is not effective.
I agree with you regarding "choice". It is a choice here to a certain degree. The program is presented to appropriate candidates during the court proceedings, so it is a post court program. They have already been charged, and found guilty of the crime. Then the question is are they ready for this program? Or would it be better for them to serve time in jail? So, there IS a discussion, and ultimately, the program is court ordered if the offender seems appropriatly ready. If the program does not work for them, they still need to serve time.
During the meetings with the reparative board (volunteer community members...we had one past offender on our board too) the offender, the victim, sometimes their families, friends, etc., have the opportunity to meet...when/if the victim chooses to participate. This gives the crime human faces. As you may know, often court proceedings involve the judge and attorneys, and the offender and victim are often left out of the loop altogether.
All participating parties are part of the process to decide how the offender might pay restitution. What is s/he capable of? How do we integrate him/her back into the community? What educational programs might help? Community service? etc. etc. Two very common elements with most of the offenders I was involved with was GED (high school equivilency education) and community service, preferably somehow related to the crime.
Colleen Steen 500+
An offender was driving under the influence (DUI), crashed into a town building and damaged town property.
When he worked, he worked in construction, but he lost his licence to drive because of previous DUIs, often couldn't work because he had no transportation, or because he was drunk a lot of the time. It was a cycle...didn't work, drank because he was depressed, got into trouble because he was drunk...when he was drinking, got back into his car to go somewhere...more DUIs...on and on!
Part of his agreement with the reparative board and the victim (the town) was to do community service by working on the town road crew, as well as physically repair the damage to the town building. It was close enough to his home, so he didn't need transportation, he got to repair the damage he had done, he apparently stopped drinking, made friends with the road crew, was a good worker, and when his community service was finished, they hired him!!! He stayed out of jail, was integrated back into the community, and apparently turned his life around.
That is a win-win situation in my humble opinion:>)
Jason sinclair
Colleen Steen 500+
Jason sinclair
.
I think there are different levels. It reminds me of that song which has the following lines "any love is good love, so i took what i could get"
One level is in the individual. That is a personal journey and it is what i hope to represent. The personal journey.
The second level is in the current system in place and how people within that system can provide better aid to people. Which is what this thread is about.
The third level is how society can change to improve the conditions of all it's people which is an angle Edan East is taking.
I think every level is worthy of discussion.
The thing is we are people who care and we are in a position to enact positive change.
Don't worry about the one 1% who are psychopaths. Worry about the 1% who actually care.
The United states has the highest population of prison inmates per population of anywhere in the world. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_pri_per_cap-crime-prisoners-per-capita
This has to be an alarming statistic for a country which presents itself as the leader in the value of human liberty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_incarceration_timeline-clean-fixed-timescale.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_drugs
I think all these levels need to be investigated for anyone who cares about human liberty.
Colleen Steen 500+
I volunteered in the women/children's shelter, family center, advocate for kids in state custody, and the dept. of corrections. One thing I noticed, is that the same families are going through these programs generation after generation, falling through the cracks of programs/systems that are supposed to be supporting them with their challenges. We're seeing the same families, dealing with the same issues over and over again, which I believe to be one of the underlying causes for repeat offenders. If we, as a society keep repeating the same patterns, we cannot expect to have different results.
That is what I like about the restoritive justice programs. It provides an opportunity to get to some of the underlying causes. I once had a mediation session with three felons...a mother, father and son....all serving time in the same facility....all in and out of jail for years...dependant on public assistance and the systems that failed them for years. The son was going through the reparative program as part of an early release agreement. I don't think the three of them had ever actually sat down together to talk about their situation.
One of the first questions I asked an offender in programs I participated in is..."what were you thinking...what were you feeling when you committed the crime"?
The answer was often....nothing....I wasn't thinking or feeling anything. That seems to be one element of the underlying cause...thinking, feeling, cause and effect, ramifications.
They are disempowered and have lost touch with the idea that they have choices.
Edan East
Colleen... you attack me and the information I post when it seems to be inconflict with what you beleive... I do not think it is sad that Jason turned his life around, I think it is sad when people look at a single individual and his unusual success and wonder why all the rest did not do as well.
That is a big problem with our system. we blame the offender when he fails, yet it is the system that has failed him.
this is a very complex issue and you are looking at it from a personal level. looking at individuals and their individual cases. I am looking at an over all solution that works for the magority of the population not just the enomily. That is what I ment by what I said.
I care so deeply and was so moved by my experience of working in the prison that I went back to school and earnd a BA and an MA in an effort to, one find a solution and, two do something about it. My children are grown and so I can dedicate my life to this issue. This is my own "peace Corp" here in my own country for men that are living right now right here. I have watched the fall out of the failed programs that these men are promised are "The Answer" to their cicle of incarceration, and then when they go back to a community that is its self failing and with out hope and they return to the only thing they can and now are being watched by the system end up back incarcerated. The return to custody without a new charge is a large segment of the priosn population. This means men that did not commite another crime but were instead incarcerated for something that you and I could do and not be charged for.
Colleen you look at this too personally and too individually... I discovered early on that I needed to step back and hold my personal experiences ..
Edan East
I still remeber the individual enomilys from my time working in the prison... those were the unusual cases that stood out, but we can not all fall into the outliers... most fall into the center. Those ooutliers can make it without my help, it is the average the ones that do not get that rare expereince that needs the system to change.
So as for why I discount the program you promote is because I know from an empiricly reviewed perspective that those help only a small segment of the population and those that they help is questionable because it is close to the same out come if left alone. I saw the research adn know the men that are the actual victims of our system when we enact or promote programs that "feel good' or look like they work" instead of programs based on evidence of what works.
In other words Colleen all the programs that are not really working are doing harm... there is a lot of valid and reliable research that supports what woks, when and with whom...
I understand you care and it is dificult to shift your beleif system on this, but that is the problem I face when trying to change the system and those that work in the system...
but thank you for making me argue my point and go back in to the relm of this very disturbing reality... after I worked in that field and then studied that earning my degrees with honors and spending time living in the worst of the worst places here in the USA in order to expereince what so many of the men I worked with experience, I took time off to cry... and feel ... and think... and now I can look into what I can do and where my life will go next... I have this knowledge from both sides and need to do more... it is just such an uphill battle... you have no idea. I have advocated for change, but the people in the place that can enact change are stonewalls .... this is hard work
Edan East
Can an offender sue or hold accountable a program if it fails to deliver on its promise? It should be! Mostly the tax payers pay for this and those being treated are the tragic victims...
So yes Colleen I do have a strong opion about this, because I have looked at it from all angles and been open to gaining information from valid and reliable sorces that fit with what I could see to be true...
Edan East
Trust me Colleen this system is failing so many, yet we have the answer... but to have so many well intentioned in the way as well as the illintentioned becomes a huge weight that at times feels overwelming... I want programs that succeed 70% of the time or better, not fail 70% of the time and then claim it is the fault of the marginalized without npower in our society.
Colleen Steen 500+
Sorry you feel attacked. I am genuinely interested in what you write, agree with much of it, and do not feel that most of your concern or goals are in conflict with mine at all.
I think it is GREAT to look at an individual, recognize and acknowledge his/her accomplishments. On that, apparently, we disagree. You are right...I am indeed looking at individual cases because it is as you say...everyone is not the same...everyone may not change. I focus on the ones who DO change, and believe they make wonderful role models for others who are often in the process of change as well.
As I said in another comment, we had a past offender on the Reperative Board I served on. He was a GREAT asset to the process. We hear about one success story here on this thread. I have seen many successes, and that is what I focus on. Every journey starts with a single step, and it is the small successes that will add up to larger successes...in my opinion. You seem to want to say that does not work, and that's ok...I respect your perception.
I trust that you are sincere in your quest, and so am I. We apparently have different perceptions, and that is ok.
Jason sinclair
Secondly, without the support of people who work in the system who had the ability to give me humanity, i can not say i would have survived. It is these people who hold society up. Not the system. So keep up your good work even when you can't see the changes happening. :) Keep believing that most human beings are actually good when given a chance.
"Be the change you wish to see in the world" -ghandi
James Gronau
Edan East
James Gronau
Edan East
So I would change many policies. this is not a simple answer. It is complex. But sufice it to say the changes would have to be both micro, or to help the individual cahnge, and macro to help society change.
Yes I know what those changes are, for the individual we need to follow evidence based practices, such as the following the Principles of Effective Interevention, which utilizes the principles following social learning theory because it shows the most robust findings and has an increased success rate of 35%. That was the strongest level of success of any of the programs.
Then on the societial level the policy shifts would be toward people, away from corperations and individuals. This is not any quick study that I can say in a few lines all the complexities of it but I can say there are many studies that support and back my perspective. and there are many case studies where other countries have turned around these same issues. One very important one is Enrigue Penilosa, He was Mayor of Bogata Colombia from 1999 to 2002. He chose to dedicate resources to benifit the people and specifically the poorest people in his city and one of the outcomes of this decision was a 70% drop in the homicide rate. Bogata at that time prior to Penilosa taking office was the highest in the world. so by a shift in policy that benifited the people that had the highest needs he changed another aspect of his city, crime.
Like I have said it is complex. I went back to school and went as far as earning a masters degree studying these issues. I was fortunate enough to have some great Professors, one in particluar that has been instremental in helping me sort out the issues.
Colleen Steen 500+
In my perception, lack of education, self esteem, self confidence, poor role models, poor parenting skills, and anger management are some very common factors that contribute to the lives of those incarcerated.
Edan East,
You say those incarcerated "do NOT lack self esteem"? Honestly? Are you serious? That seems like pretty common knowledge.
Approx. 95% of those incarcerated are drug and/or alcohal dependant. Do you think/feel it is confident, content people who depend on a substance, often ignoring all other things and people in their life to obtain the substance? Do you think/feel it is people who have high self esteem who repeat the same patterns over and over again, which lands them in jail?
Many of the incarcerated men I worked with adopted a tough guy persona, and that often happens as a defense mechanism. A majority of those incarcerated have also been physically, emotionally, sexually abused as children, so they create this tough guy persona. Perhaps that is what you observed Edan East?
James Gronau
Edan East
Colleen Steen 500+
I agree James...tough personas are often misinterpreted as confidence or high self esteem, which, off course is the purpose of adopting those characteristics.
People with genuine confidence and self esteem do not prey on other people. They do not abuse and violate the rights of others. People with genuine self esteem live in peace and harmony in the community.
Edan East
but again I will saw what is found to be the most important indicator of criminogenic behavior and an indicator of their future is 1) Attitude, 2) Associates, 3) personality, 4) History, 5)skill/eductaion, 6) Family, and last.7)addiction.
so change the attitude and change the peron. change the associates and you often change the attitude, address the personality issue, ie. sociopath or other mental illness issues and you see whether change can take place, of course look at the history of anyone and I can tell you what they are more likely to do when faced with similar curcumstances... those first 4 are the most important... the rest job/education family and addiction play a smaller role, as in they can tell you of further isssues they may need to deal with, such as going home to a family of drug addicted gang bangers in a community with no jobs and education is poor.
This is not an issue that is solved by those who work in the field following what "they think" works or what "they beleive" works... it is solved by taking all the data we have and doing a meta analysis with that data and seeing what works with whom and when and then implementing that and following the outcome to make sure we are staying on target and getting the results we desire.
Colleen you seem so nicce and that is why you are probably blinded by your feelings on a personal level. We all have a shifting self esteem, but when measuered and when used as the indicater of treatment, they found it does ot work, because You are telling men where their self esteem is...
Colleen Steen 500+
You seem to like "stats", so if you look at some statistics, you might discover that it is pretty common knowledge that people who are incarcerated often lack self esteem. If you want to feel "sorry" about those facts, so be it. I agree that attitude, associates, personality, history, skill/education, family and addictions are factors, which often influence self esteem.
Edan East
so... set aside your own personal social beleifs and take another look...
Colleen Steen 500+
Colleen Steen 500+
If one believes that we are all connected, as I do, then to ignore any part of the whole, impacts the whole. Obviously, our correctional systems are not working very well. We continue to build bigger facilities and invest money in a system that we KNOW does not work. Now with the privitization of correctional facilities/prisons, the challenge is getting even worse. Making it a big business, is NOT serving those incarcerated. It simply serves the administrators. What is the motivation to rehabilitate offenders if it might put the administrators out of business???
I would love to see correctional facilities turned into self sustaining villages, where offenders could learn skills to support themselves when released, and at the same time learn how to live peacefully in a society.
I co-facilitated "cognitive self change" sessions in a facility, and there were 3 men who came to the sessions directly from the gardens, where they had been productively working in the sun and fresh air. They were in a totally different state of mind...more receptive...than the other 7 participants, and it was very apparent.
This facility has a HUGE garden that started out as a tiny experiment several years ago. They now grow enough vegetables to supply the facility, as well as many non-profit organizations. In my perception, these kinds of programs are very cost effective and cognitively meaningful.
If those incarcerated do not learn new life skills, they end up back in the same circumstances, which is not good for them as individuals, nor is it good for our communities. Are you familier with the Real Justice Program? Or the Programs which have evolved based on the book "Houses of Healing"? The Houses of Healing programs were used by a couple correctional facilities in the US, as requirements for early release. These books and training manuals are available on line, and very benificial in my perception.
Mireille Chéry
Peace
Colleen Steen 500+
I agree...first we need to empower them to WANT to change. When I say empower them, I mean genuinely empower...not the power that they think they have. This program I speak of..."Houses of Healing", is "A Prisoner's Guide To Inner Power And Freedom"......genuine power....genuine freedom:>)
Hope things are good in the big city:>)
Peace to you my friend....always...all ways:>)
Mireille Chéry
Wow, I love this " A Prisoner Guide To Inner Power AndFreedom", great job!!
Big city is looking great, have a blast and getting sexy and hot for this summer!! Can you blame ? Guilty as charge!!
Love always...all ways!!
Tim Petersen
perhaps you could enlighten me with the true understanding of the drug offendersand tell me who, how why, when and where they have created any victims by putting something into their own mouth and body....
Edan East
To clearify this mala in se is a crime that on it face is obviouly a crime... such as murder, assualt, rape. This is not the same in all countries. in some countries rape is not defined as a crime and in some societies murder is the indivuals right.
Mala Prohibita are crimes that based on the societies normative values are writen into the laws as a crime and their by punishable based on the laws of the day. this too varies, discharging a fire arm in a public place is not always a crime and driving while intoxicated varies greatly, as does legal age of drinking, driving and marriage.
So Tim my point is that until we as citizens truly understand what our perspective state or country is doing in our names and we lobby for change we will continue to follow policys that may be "criminal" to individuals like you and I.
Colleen Steen 500+
I believe many of the non-violent people who are incarcerated, could be doing communitty service, or repaying their debt to society in a different way other than jail time.
Regarding drug offenses...
You say..." tell me who, how why, when and where they have created any victims by putting something into their own mouth and body.... "
In my experience with corrections, I have never seen anyone incarcerated for "using". In this area, and I think this is true throughout the country, there are LOTS of users. The authorities and courts here do not spend time or energy charging or convicting "users". The charge which gets people incarcerated is usually "possession", or transporting across state/country lines. Depending on how much they are in possession of, and/or moving and distributing, is the factor which determines how much time they are incarcerated.
Authorities here, in general, are arresting the importers/suppliers/dealers, and that happens only after a very long investigation that provides proof that they are importers/suppliers/dealers of very large amounts of drugs.
In this case, there ARE victims in my perception. Young children are introduced to drugs every single moment. We've had quite a few deaths from overdoses, and sometimes the drugs that are sold are "cut" with substances that cause harm to the user.
If you've read my other posts on this thread, you will know that I am not in favor of incarceration in the system we have now. I would LOVE to see jails/prisons/correctional facilities be self sustaining villages, where offenders could learn life skills, so they can support themselves, and be contributing members of society when released.
I totally agree with your statement in another comment.... "if their behavior and conduct is worhty then get them out of the violence that our prisons are and get them to the half-way house where they can live...under supervision".
David Grammer
What we're really in need of here goes far beyond this one issue. We need to find a way to reclaim a democracy that has been co-opted by narrow self-interests and which is more responsive to cash than it is to principles and efficacy. That includes both sides of the spectrum which protect entrenched, failed programs as a means of fund raising. So far, campaign finance reform seems to be the best starting place. So if we can find a way to get that done, then rehabilitating prisoners is only one of many areas where we can make progress. Thank you for helping me to refine my thinking. I think my position now would be that it makes no sense to allocate more resources to an entrenched group which has a demonstrably negative track record and an unwillingness to implement meaningful change.
Edan East
We have lobbies that work for the Prison guard union, and for the private prison industry... but who will lobby for the incarcerated or the poor neighborhoods?
Our politicians should be "ASHAMED" of themselves!!!!!!!
Tim Petersen
To the other, less than half of the incarcereated population; they are there because they hurt people. Is it possible to encourage their rehabilitation?, I think it is within reason to give them a second chance, but because we are gambling with the possibility of them re-offending and hurting someone, then I believe it is even more important that we stop wasting money on the non-violent drug offenders and use those resources to furnish half-way prison/half-wayhome institutions for them when they do get out of prison. Don't throw them out on parole or a measley three to six month stay in a residential facility. if their behavior and conduct is worhty then get them out of the violence that our prisons are and get them to the half-way house where they can live up to two or three years under supervision. The system now is completely backwards, by the time most of them are released, even the ones who were not violent before they went in, there is a good chance they will be when they get out, in the least, they will have an incredible amount of change, trauma, and adjusting to do.
They need to learn trades and have college available to them while they are in prison. You are right, Mark.
Thanks for your concern, and service.
Edan East
It is easy to start seperating out good criminals from bad criminals and using the defning line as based on some supposed comfort level to our place in society. But truth be told the majority of people in prison are men, (90+%) and the majority of those are minority, even though they do not make up the majority of the criminal acts, and the majority of those "violent" offenders you would give up on are only violent within their own neighborhood and toward their own kind and that is because we, the bigger society have turned our backs on the and left them without access to resources...
I am just as comfortable in dealing with a 3 time felon serving time for violence as I am with the first time drug bust guy...
Our prisons are made of of about 90% poor and about 10% sociopaths, They should be focusing on the sociopaths and finding ways to help the poor...
Tim Petersen
Just because some things are illegal does not make them crimes. Bad laws make them illegal, but they are still not crimes without a victim. You must have a victim in order for it to be a crime by definition.
You said,
"majority of those "violent" offenders you would give up on are only violent within their own neighborhood and toward their own kind and that is because "
where did you get the idea I want to give up on anyone? Are you just looking to argue with some one, if so, it ain't me, babe...
I don't understand where this is going, I am missing your point, and I think you have definitely misunderstood me. I enjoy debating, sharing, and learning, but I am not going to be brought in to silly arguments.
so long
Edan East
Often I hear the argument in favor of drug offenders, so called victimless crimes. this arguement is made without true understanding of the issue.
I would like to see a shift in our criminal justice system away from victimizing those already victimized by our failed social structure that allows some in our society to live a priviidged life and some to be barred from acces to the opportunities our society makes available becuase of the vast recources available.
My point is very clearly... drug offenders in prison are not the problem... poverty and disenfranchisement are.
Comment deleted
Edan East
I concure with you in the futility of the coffee pounding self help groups, the stats on those show an increase likihood to return to the behavior...
I am surprised though that you as a social scientist would, one discount research studies and two assume that it is based on question and answer or snowball studies. the data collection that went in to this is based on years!!!!!! (40) of research. this research covers the gamet of all forms of data collection including a very highly regarded Meta Analysis (I was just trying to find that article but am not finding it, I would like to give you the name of the researcher) This is solid and developing and can be viewed if you Google search the names I mentioned...
The problem with your expereince with your addict friends is that they are your addict frineds... it becomes very difficult to seperate out what you are hearing from them and what you are observing first hand. I often deal with this with people in my personal life, but then I have to realise that the information still fits them...
It is very complex and is based on understanding many of the social science theorys and which of those theories have the most robust results in their results.
When we follow good science we do see change and it doesnt take "hitting bottom" or the addict or the criminal understanding why they are doing what they do... it is in us professionals following what is supported by science and continuously check our methods that they are still getting the desired results
Ali Malekshoar
David Grammer
Edan East
David Grammer
If changes are to be made in the penal system, and I sincerely hope they are, they need to begin with an attitudinal paradigm shift within the existing system, not spending more money on a system which is manifestly unsuccessful. That would deal with what I think you correctly perceive as a "secondary agenda". It needs to begin with real science and with an unblinking eye toward who is really capable of being rehabilitated and who isn't, what works and what doesn't, and is the cost justified.
I'd probably agree with you on a case by case, but policy cannot be made on an individual basis The macro is often in opposition to the micro. I invite those who feel that strongly about this issue to "adopt" a prisoner and fund that individual's rehabilitation. I am not less sympathetic than you, I am simply sympathetic along an alternate path.
Edan East
We know this but we do not implement this because it is not backed by the money that backs the lobbiest and the political agenda that backs the system as it is... This program shows a marked success, it is not what any one "Beleives" it is based on years of indepth research by scholars... Google any of the names I mentioned and you will get an idea of how this works...
Hope Elliott
Colleen Steen 500+
Nothing is going to change quickly. I absolutely agree that nurturing and encouraging healthy relationships with young people at risk is a key factor. Mentoring programs have been very successful in changing the direction some young people are heading.
We have a program called "Diversion" in this state, which is modeled after the "Real Justice" reparative/restoritive practices. It is a pre-court program, available to young first time offenders, and includes education, mentoring, community service, etc.
John Albright
Edan East
Debra Smith 200+
Sue O'Connor
Bharath Kumar Kunjibettu 10+
Rather than focussing on training cost, there is so much of joy watching them rehabilitate and contribute better to the society . Its just that in such cases Return of Investment will be very long . We also need to apply the same practice for senior offenders rather than treating them harshly in the jails..
Regards,
Bharath
Sue O'Connor
I agree with you about the joy of watching these young men turn around their lives. It's also wonderful to see the positive impact on their mentors as the too have learnt what it is like to help someone transform their life.
Heather White 10+
Your project seems interesting at a cost and benefit level. In the UK our Minister of Justice, Ken Clarke, is considering alternatives to prison for sentences of 18 months and under since reoffending rates in this population is running at c. 70%! One of the reasons being the poor uptake of education and theraputic courses available to this group due to the lack of time to complete the course.
Perhaps your projects experience could be used to support the probation service who oversee the reintegration of offenders.
Sue O'Connor
thanks for the tip - obviously I'm new to Ted conversations!. Our experience is a little different. A key is the role of the mentor and the realtionship with the young man. For many of them they talk about the fact that it is the first time that someone "showed me that they cared and that I was important". Happy to introduce the UK folk to our great team in Australia. The Y in the UK could potentially help to make this happen.
Heather White 10+
The problem is time and money. Ironically, the longer the period of incarceration the better chance of rehibilitation. Short periods of jail time end up being school time for criminal contacts, jobs and skills. As for money and resources - jail is expensive enough without training, education and therapy on top - so it's a political decision as tax payers foot the bill. Are we willing to pay higher taxes to pay for more and better quality rehibilitation or not?
Bharath Kumar Kunjibettu 10+
I dont know how jails work in abroad. But the way hollywood potrays prison is like they are given some free time to walk around the campus. How about utilizing this free time in Yogas and other spiritual activities which will eventually help the offenders find their lost soul ...
Heather White 10+
I don't work in the prison service, but my response is based on my knowledge of the UK prison service and sentencing policy. As a Quaker I have contact with several Prison Chaplains (from many faiths) who serve the spiritual needs of those incarcerated.
From what they tell me, it is mainly those serving terms of three years or longer who make use of prison spiritual support, therapy and the training and education available to them. This is mainly due to the fact that in the UK inmates can earn time off their sentence “for good behaviour”, so for terms of a year they may only serve 8 or 9 months - too short a period of time to undertake significant education or therapy etc. In the UK 90% of those sentenced in 2011 had previously offended - c.70% for crimes with a low time tariff.
The Minister for Justice is currently considering providing an alternative provision than prison for those sentenced to terms of 18 months or less. This is due to research which has shown that the therapy, education and skills privision provided to all inmates are less effective due to a lower uptake for those serving short sentences.
Bharath Kumar Kunjibettu 10+
On a serious note , we must make sure we give them the spiritual therapy and give them some classes on how to earn and learn rather than spoon feeding them with every thing..Because tomorrow they should be in a position to lead their own life
Heather White 10+
Edan East
As for hollywood image of prison it is often very distroted. I worked in a prison and spent a lot of time touring and working with other prisons. I hold degrees in Criminal Justice and can tell you here in the United States the sentence is "Time" that is it and the time the spend standing sround with nothing to do is excruciating to many of those incarcerated, especially those with longer sentances. Think about it... if you had to serve 10 years... each day becomes an eternaty... even for those with short sentances such a year or two... each day is an eternaty. the men in the institutions I worked with beg for a job or education... they would often sign up repetedly for programs just to break up the tedium and hope to find the magic bullit that would change them for the better. There is effective treatment stratagies that are in the long run far more cost effective, it is just the problem of getting those that effect policy to follow what works as apposed to what is being lobbied for by special interests.
Heather White 10+
Its interesting that in the UK for the first time the number of released long term prisioners who reoffend has begun to increase. The data for 2011 shows that just under a third of reoffenders have served long sentences - this is an increase of 13% and comes at a time when the prison service budget for education, therapy etc is being reduced due to the austerity cuts.
Edan East
What I discribed does not even come close to what they endure... A person serving time "will never be the same!" Just working in the prisons or visiting prisoners will effect any caring feeling individual... yet we find it so easy to vilify and distort the reality of who 90% of the inmates are....
There is a need for incarceration, but our country, the USA, has distorted that use starting back in the mid 1970s and has yet to correct it. If you read the articles published in the professional journals for the field of criminal justice and specifically corrections you will find that those that know from an educated perspective are appaled there are multiple articles about "Professional Quackery" and "Institutional Harm". this is more the case than the exception. The problem is that those in the field, such as law enforcement and correctional staff do not see it from an educated informed perspective but rather from an anicdotale perspective. I have heard from many correctional officers, (COs) statements like "if their lips are moving they are lying..." how can an inmate in that type of environment protect himself, advocate for his rights, or find the respect that is fundimental to pro-social behavior, and something we all take for granted. Until you have your rights taken away you have no idea what it is like.
A very good author and informened person to read is John Irwin, he served a 10 year sentence in the state of california, then after release became a PhD scholar the taught and researched at UC Irvine. There are many others that write from well positioned perspectives such as Paul Gendreau of Canada. His father was a psychiatrist to the prison system he became a PhD in either Psyc or Soc and was in charge of the priosn system he was one of the early researc
Edan East
Bharath Kumar Kunjibettu 10+
Jeff Cable
Criminals do not want to be in jail and the reality is they will do everything possible to avoid going to jail... except the all important stopping committing crimes. Crime is not supposed to pay and yet many of the career criminals expect their chosen lifestyle to earn them some jail time. It is virtually a vacation for them and often seen as an occupation hazard.
You work all week for 50 weeks of the year and after a year you may have earned $100,000 minus all taxes. The criminal can earn that in a week and, in the UK, will end up serving half the sentence handed down by the judge. (time off for the somewhat curious 'good behaviour') In one example I know of, the defendants were a mother, her live-in lover and two 17 year old teenagers.
They were dealing dope and the police raided the premises. It was public housing (low rent for people without very much in life) and it was found that the house was full of dope, electronic scales, lists of clients and cash. The cash was tied in neat bundles of £10,000 and in all, there was £280,000 discovered. Before sentence, the prosecution stated that it represented 4 weeks income. The chief defendant boasted that it was only one week's money and the judge sentenced them all to 7 years each.
They served 3.5 years each and within a week of leaving jail, the whole family were dealing again. Society has no answer to replacing a £280,000 per week lifestyle. What can we offer the career criminal who has no interest in slinging burgers?