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Should we teach people how to control their dreams?
First of all a clarification: by this question i do not mean we should kill or limit people's dreams or even put down dreamers. To the contrary, long live the dreamers, the creative force behind our true progress!
Now, my question is related to a particular phenomenon that i have experienced called lucid dreaming, where one can become suddenly conscious that one is dreaming and even alter the flow of dreams.
I remember this had a profound effect on me, as it dispelled some myths (for example, that of experiences out of the body). But most of all, it gave me a better understanding of the kind of stuff that buzzes through our heads and make up our unconscious dreams.
Some have said that controlling our own dreams could have positive applications, like treatment of nightmares, i would venture to think that rehabilitation from certain addictions could be a potential application too.
Do you think that people should be taught openly how to become aware of and control their own dreams?
cheers
P.D. Here is some info on lucid dreaming: http://everything2.com/title/Lucid+dream
Chris Kelly 20+
Absolutely. Lucid dreaming is a great tool through which we can reprogram our subconscious mind ... any "bad" habit (harmful addictions) can be replaced with good habits ... if one is instructed on how to take advantage of the lucid dream state, it can be a most valuable tool for self-improvement and self-realization.
Andres Aullet 10+
Yes, i too think that combining the creative aspect of lucid dreaming with the plasticity of the brain and the way we can achieve changes in our lives by re-programming ourselves, there is tremendous potential for all sorts of good results
You stated with great clarity what i vaguely had in mind while asking the question
cheers!
natasha nikulina 50+
I feel more motivated than ever ! I think i should find time for this and I will :)
natasha nikulina 50+
for me it is not 'should we', but 'could we ' question :)
Forgive my ignorance, but what does it mean : to control dreams ? For me, our dreams are more the function of who we are than what we do or even what we think. Though who we are and what we think we are and what we do is not separate and deeply interwoven. My dream is an 'answer' and in my waking life I try to understand what was the question.
Sometimes i have nightmares and in my dream I am conscious that it is a dream and to stop this I should wake up. And i do, but i see it is a sign, that something is wrong with me , maybe I am doing something wrong, not being quite aware of it, so it pushes me to thinking and analyzing. If I manage to find the core of disturbance ( usually i do ) and fix it, I can fly in my dreams again. ' i am' of my dream state is trying to convince 'i am' of my waking state ,that flying is easy and natural, it's always the case in my 'flying' dreams :)
But i guess, it's only the part of the equation,a kind of applicative value of dreams. The question remains : what does it mean 'to control..how can i alter the flow of dreams..? Could you share the technique or suggest any reading ? You've mentioned Ricard Feynman, is it " Surely You're joking, Mr. Feynman !"?
Thank you !
Andres Aullet 10+
Yes, the book was "Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman".
After i read about it, I tried to learn more, and I also started practicing until i was able to do two things: 1) to suddenly become conscious within a dream and to voluntarily conjure up elements in it without waking up, and 2) to go to sleep without allowing consciousness to fade away.
At a physical level, it carries a very peculiar feeling. in particular the transition between the two distinct mental states of "awake and falling asleep", and "conscious while entering the dreaming phase" came accompanied with very specific physical sensations: a subtle noise that increases in intensity, the rigor of the body (which is due to the natural mechanism by that our brain uses protect us from damaging our body during our sleep), the perception of bright light and some anxiety similar to the one produced by tachycardia.
But with some practice it is possible to be aware of all these physical sensations and to keep them under control, and that makes lucid dreaming a little easier to achieve.
It does require a good deal of practice, from what i remember. And it depends on your physical status too (it was a lot more difficult to do it when i was sick, or exhausted, or when i experienced anxiety about something else)
One of the things that i got from this was a deeper understanding of the lack of control that we have over the subconscious part of our brain, and yet how much of that subconscious is really "us", as opposed to the conscious fraction. So it helped me get to know myself a little better!
I will take some time to gather some links with info for you!
I hope this at least answers some of your questions!
cheers
natasha nikulina 50+
Thank you for responding !
I'll read the book, I love Richard Feynman ! He is my hero !
I believe whatever we practice, we become a part of it, thanks, almighty neuron plasticity :)
And I am highly interested.
"The trick is to combine your waking rational abilities with the infinite possibilities of your dreams. Because, if you can do that, you can do anything." ( "Waking Life ')
Thanks for opening me to this !
Andres Aullet 10+
http://everything2.com/title/Lucid+dream
cheers!
natasha nikulina 50+
I've realized the first problem : Time ! It takes a lot of time !
Funny , though, i don't have time to develop the ability to 'do anything' ...:)
Lindsay Newland Bowker 50+
In college through a wonderful book by physicist Lawrence Kubie ( Neurotic Distortion of the Creative Process) I learned to use my dream constructively to solve complex problems by giving a question to my sleep. Through Steiner based meditative skills and practices I have come to use that with more skill and intention.
The answers or guidance that comes from dreams in my expereience isn't like "answers" in the way we think of it usually. It's more like a small shift in consciousess and awareness or a sudden key revelation that isn't at first blush clearly an answer to the question.
In our Steiner/Sardello practices we do not try to analyse or interpret dreams but do try to recall them in detail and carefully notice details of the dream. Allowing the dream to be iconic..to hold all its information, all its content, for recapture and use "as needed"
The key to constructive useful dreaming, in my experience is to go to sleep on a question that contains no hint or bias towards what you think the answer is.
I realize this is a little different from what is normally refrred to as lucid dreaming..my variation, that I have always had naturally is that I am aware that I am dreaming and can interact with the dream constructively.
Thanks for your intriguing question.
And may all your dreams be fruitful ones.
Chetan Somani
Colleen Steen 500+
It has been awhile since I explored dreams and dream interpretation, and as I recall, it is an accepted belief that we all dream...is it not? Some of us may be more aware of the process, and perhaps we can teach and learn more about understanding dreams and using the information in our life?
Anne Dagen 10+
Andres Aullet 10+
Indeed it is possible to teach someone how to achieve it. I taught myself after reading about them in a book by Richard Feynman, and although it took some practice, i was greatly impressed by the level of control that one can achieve
As your intuition implies, yes, the process involves a slight alteration of the regular sleep cycles (along with the brain states that it requires), if anything, I would feel a little bit more tired in the morning, however it was never clear to me if it was because i had experienced a lucid dream, or because i had to force myself to remain alert while falling asleep (and hence sleeping less time). But i do not remember any other problems with it
Anne Dagen 10+
Colleen Steen 500+
I also taught myself more about dreams and dream interpretation. It has never had an effect on my sleep patterns to the best of my knowledge, and I have never forced myself to remain alert. The only time I may feel a little tired in the morning, is if I had a particularly physically active dream. So, I suspect there IS a connection with all body systems.
I'm aware of muscle memory, and not really sure about this...simply speculating...
Everything in the body/mind is intricately connect, is it not? With that in mind, wouldn't the mind and body (muscle memory) be working together? As the subconscious mind is linking, discovering patterns and organizing information, presumably information would be transmitted to the muscular system as well as all other systems of the body/mind? Considering the practices of sports training techniques, imaging/focusing, it makes sense to me that all body/mind systems would be part of the process.
Good question Anne...causing me to ponder!
Pocahontas Water
Colleen Steen 500+
First of all, "should" is not part of my regular vocabulary. People will seek the knowledge they choose to explore and assimilate at any given time.
There is a LOT of information "out there" about dreams and dream interpretation. Carl Jung did extensive work with this topic, and there's a little, easy read book called "Jungian Dream Interpretation" by James A. Hall, M.D. (available on-line), which I found simple and interesting years ago when I was exploring the process of dreaming.
I agree with one of Jung's theories, that dreaming may be the subconscious mind working out challenges or experiences that we face on a conscious level. I believe a lot of "action" goes on in the mind/brain while we are sleeping at various levels, so I appreciate the dreams, which give me information. I believe that knowing more about anything, offers us an opportunity, so I agree that knowing more about dreaming can have positive applications.
When I was performing (professional actor, singer, dancer in musical theater) I often studied lines, songs and choreography just before going to sleep, with the intent to remember. My dreams were often "practicing" the information I had applied.
If I have a decision to make, or challenge to face, and feel like I don't have the answer, I program the brain/mind to work on it while I am sleeping, by simply asking the question without bias, before going to sleep. In the morning, I often have the answer. So yes, I believe our subcouscious mind is working on things while we sleep, and we have the ability to guide that process to some extent.
Andres Aullet 10+
Yes i too agree with Carl Jung's interpretation that dreaming allows our minds to work out and reconcille our conscious experiences. More than once I have had the same experience you mention, sleeping over an open question and finding a sensible answer through a dream.
I once read about a common trend in creative process of some people: spell your goal/question in a simple form, immerse yourself in information, then walk away and forget about it. This allows the subconscious to perform the magic of searching and linking and discovering patterns that many times results in that "a-ha" moment
I think that dreaming is very much relatd to our creative side. That is why I think that understanding how we dream (and I see lucid dreams as one step in that direction) might open up a world of creative possibilities!
cheers
Colleen Steen 500+
Haven't seen you too much lately either...nice to "see" you again:>)
I think/feel the reason we can get additional information while dreaming. is because when we try to address questions/challenges on a conscious level, we may be aware of ONLY the programming that we have in our conscious mind. I believe the subconscious mind has more information that we may not easily access while fully awake.
I agree that it helps to have as much information as possible about anything we are dealing with. I also agree that the subconscious can be more creative while searching, linking and discovering patterns and information....well said Andres! I believe the conscious mind may be limited in that respect.
Frans Kellner 100+
I've done this for some time long ago and concluded that it wasn't healthy for my daily life.
Yet as you say it can be beneficial to understand a thing or two or to correct some problems though to use it that way it would be better to have some guiding from an experienced practitioner.
In the remote past in some cultures it probably was a part of culture and life and a source of information and inspiration. Even further back in time reality and dream was rather mixed up or maybe reality was gradually distilled from the dream as the part we shared and could be confirmed by our senses.
For people with nightmares is is sufficient that they tell themselves before they go to sleep that they are the only author of the dream and in full control of whatever appears in it.
Colleen Steen 500+
I agree with most of what you have written. I'm curious....what part did you feel was not healthy for your daily life?
Frans Kellner 100+
Dreams can have several levels. First it can react upon any physical need. Then it can occupy with mental needs like you described. Further the dreamer can act conscious within all kind of stories much like our daily life. With lucid dreaming you are aware of yourself as the dreamer not different than awake and the dream is just another world that you can remember as you wake up like it was any daily event. Doing this for awhile it can go a step beyond by which you leave the body and that’s when it can be a bit scary.
I remember myself to be fully awake in the bedroom while my body slept and I panicked a little because I realized that as I couldn’t fall asleep again and get back, my body wouldn’t be able to wake up.
Even further yet it is possible to leave for the realm of spirit and to reshape life in different ways.
I think life isn’t meant for this kind of explorations then we didn’t need to be born in the first place. To change the settings of life experience we don’t need dreamtime as death is the usual point for transition.
So dreaming has a lot of possibilities not only at night but while awake also. What we call daydreaming can also be very real and as I learned it is even possible to be physical aware here and now full in action and at the same time live on another plane and level in another time and place.
So by dreaming we can have all sorts of impact on our daily life, good and bad and to use it with modesty it can only be beneficial as you pointed out.
Colleen Steen 500+
I suspected something like that, and I do not like to assume...better to clarify with you:>)
I agree that there are many levels of dreaming, from daydreaming to a very deep level called astral travel.
I have never had a bad experience from any level of dreaming, and I am aware that some people have. I think I understand what you are saying:>)
Andres Aullet 10+
Thanks for your answer. Yes i don't think many people are familiar with the phenomenon of "lucid dreaming" or with the process that can produce it.
Now, as for the side effects, I remember having to adjust my sleeping hours to compensate for the time i needed to achieve lucid dreaming (back in the days when i had the luxury of lots of sleeping time!) but i don't recall any health issues associated with it. Do you know of any?
I agree that it's a good idea to have some guidance from someone with experience
At a deeper level, I guess my question comes from the fact that some things that are considered meta-physical can actually be demystified with some practice and a little deeper understanding, yet this creates a conflict when we consider some things too dear to us to put them under the microscope. Someone told me once, very honestly, that there were things that he would rather not know deeper, that understanding could take away part of their wonder.
Maybe my question can be rephrased like this: do we take away the wonder of something when we attempt to understand it at a deeper level?
cheers
Frans Kellner 100+
I think that dreaming has a great potential for people to know something about themselves and life at large but whatever knowledge there was is gone or distorted to fragments of stories of superstition.
Maybe things change for the better.
Colleen Steen 500+
David Hamilton 50+
Just in case you haven't seen it the film "Waking Life" is all about this topic, and especially after a couple glasses of wine, it's a fun trip.
natasha nikulina 50+
I love this movie, it's currently my favourite ! Somewhere in the end, there is an episode in the bar, pinball playing guy says : There's only one instant, and it's right now. And God is asking you,are you with me ? And we say : maybe not now, maybe later..."
I am interested, how do you interpret this ?
I am not religious, no Deity is involved :) So, what is it about ?
natasha nikulina 50+
"Maybe my question can be rephrased like this: do we take away the wonder of something when we attempt to understand it at a deeper level?"
I think, that there always be the room for wonder, no matter how deep we have managed to understand something.
But if one feels that it is time to stop analysing and leave the ' thing' where it is, untellable, not explained , it's always a good thing to do.
It doesn't mean that the 'massege ' is ignored, on the contrary, I may experience 'aha' moment, but if someone asks me what exactly I've understood, I can't explain, but the warm feeling of understanding, a kind of certainty that now i 'know' is unmistakable. It's like a gift :)
Colleen Steen 500+
For me, a "deeper level" of anything, simply provides more "wonder".