Dyed All Hues

Thinker and Experimenter,

This conversation is closed.

What is the proper steps to shifting someones paradigm of something very concrete and pertinent to them?

I'm wonder if the person I am currently thinking of will allow me to shift their paradigm by introducting them to a larger spectrum of ideas.

I feel sometimes these big shifts could potentially break ties between people as I have experienced in the past.

Does one risk it or is there a systematical way to delivering paradigm shifting/shattering information?

Closing Statement from Dyed All Hues

Thank You all for bearing with my question.

It may have been difficult to understand my purpose at times, but I assure you that after this thoughtful conversation that I will allow the subject to be placed in the compartment of "for future use, but not right now" subjects. =)

I really hope that this has helped you as much as it has helped me think more about the functionality of Pardigms. =)

Thanks for participating and openly sharing your ideas. May many more instances allow us to conversate. =D

  • Apr 27 2012: I understand your point but you are assuming all people is rational and that's wrong. Unfortunately nobody can turn an irrational belief into a rational understanding specially when It is the main motive in a person life. You can try and try and give facts and you'll achieve nothing but strengthen their beliefs.
    The solution for the future is in teaching kids in rational and open thinking.
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      Apr 27 2012: Ah! That sounds like an idea worth spreading! ;)

      Thanks Jose! =)
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      Apr 27 2012: ps: jose you should start a conversation about how to implement this type of teaching. =)
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    Apr 21 2012: If the subject is evolution, many people who do not accept the idea of evolution hold that position not so much because they have studied the scientific evidence and find that it is not compelling but because they are not interested in scientific evidence that may conflict with religious belief.
    There are scholars in science who are themselves religious who see no conflict between their faith and accepting the theory of evolution. There are also religious leaders who accept the idea of evolution and have addressed why they find both beliefs consistent.
    Material that argues that faith and a belief in evolution can be consistent may not be welcome to someone happy with his or her beliefs, but that sort of material may be the most effective in that the author of faith may be a more credible source to your friend than the work or arguments of a non-believer.
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    Apr 20 2012: Paradigm shift difficult to make quick.....

    Better to go for small shifts.....achieve mini goals....towards the ultimate paradigm shift of the idea or thought

    Something like in one try in one day it's difficult to make someone who doesn't know how to ride bicycle as an expert bicyclist...
  • Apr 22 2012: Here is a quote:

    "Getting rid of a bad habit, is an undo it yourself project"

    I think that to undergo paradigm shifts one has to face the truth in a very compelling way.......in other words, they are not expecting to undergo the paradigm shift when it happens. It just happens.
    That is what has happened to me several times........

    The author Stephen Covey addresses paradigm shifts in his book Eight Habits of Highly Successful People. If you are able to pick up a copy of the book at the library, I highly recommend it.

    He fills the pages with personal experiences, and it is easy reading.

    Sure hope I have helped you Derek...............I have given your question alot of thought.

    But bottom line, we cannot control/change people, we can only control/change ourselves...........once we come to this realization, our life is a bit nicer to live.

    Be Well
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      Apr 23 2012: Mary,

      In my view of things I know I can't change them, but I hope to hand them the tools to figuring out for themselves how there is more than a volumuinous book about a single sphere of the world and there is so much more in this world than one way of thinking.

      So, as my topic has yet to be clearly satisfied, I am satisfied with the conversation that has evolved from one point into many other points. I think that all these points, so far, are helping me discover a better or different approach to my cunundrum. I think I started out wanting to change people, but I know that is not possible and the only way is to give them my views about a subject, though I must retain my strong passion with these ideas in order to have a proper dialogue about such subjects. I guess if the conversation between certain individuals' are not completely productive, I would end it and change subjects as I have learned in the past. Single step at a time and planning while going over scenarios will be in my mind.

      I will check out stephen covey when I have a lotted time to read it, but I wish I could just absorb information like garfield in his poster, through osmosis. haha! =)

      Thanks for reading my thoughts and sharing yours. =D
  • Apr 22 2012: Trying to FORCE someone around to your way of thinking will be counterproductive. Our philosophies and beliefs are mostly earned, therefore they come to us slowly with experiences and self-reflection. Another aspect most people have is they are unwilling to venture outside of their box, whether it is out of ignorance or thinking we are right.

    Having interest in what someone else believes and pursuing that is best. They may then become interested in why you believe what you do. When the interest is reciprical is when there can be an objective dialogue. You never know. You may learn something too. Isn't that what we should be doing? Advancing our own understanding of the world around us.
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      Apr 22 2012: Precisely William,

      I totally agree with you and am aware of the current sitiuation, as far as I know that is. I have a thirst for understanding, but just knowing about a piece of information really doesn't satisfy me. I feel as though I place ideas under the scientic method and "disect them", then will a better understanding occur. I would then hope that I get some sort of epiphany effect in order to feel absolutely satisfied, but of course I wouldn't take full credit to reaching this new platform of epiphanic proportions because it is a collection of information that makes knowledge and it is a higher level of awareness that makes us understand this knowledge. =)

      Thanks William, I just got a small epiphany! =D
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    Apr 22 2012: I enjoy feeling like a fool through my questions, but I think not caring is important because I learn so much more through thinking/dialogue, then acting/doing/implementing it.

    You all can teach me so much more, than me just sitting in my room feeling like I am "right" with just my own ideas.

    Thanks to all who have contributed so far! =D
  • Apr 21 2012: I have read through your thread and I have questions:#1. What about Evolution don't they believe?#2. What convinced you that Evolution is the truth?#3. Why do you want to change their belief system?#4. Are they trying to change you?#5. How would they feel if they knew you are here trying to get help to change them?I am asking this because it will help me formulate a better answer for you.Good night...it's late here.
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      Apr 21 2012: 1) I will quote the person, "Evolution is a bunch of bolony".

      2) I was convinced that Evolution is true because i) the dynamic of the world is ever changing ii) fossil evidence iii) chemical reactions iv) human adaptivity, but that is just what I could think of.

      3) I think the way I approach this may seem narrow-minded, but I want to expand the openess of their thinking.

      4) We both agree to disagree, but we both have strong beliefs. We would be constantly trying to persuade each other if we weren't able to accept other beliefs.

      5) The individual may get offended, but I try to apply what I learn in everything and one situation inspires me to get answers.

      ps: I don't want to use pronouns that identify anything too specific about the individual, so could you edit some of them in your above post?

      Thanks Mary. Please be as honest, but delicate with your next response.
      • Apr 21 2012: Derek, please read what Anne wrote to you.

        I will come back and give you additional info later.
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          Apr 22 2012: Thank you Mary, and sorry for the inconvienience. =)
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      Apr 21 2012: Ps, ps: Oh, I'd also like to add that, as teachers often do, they abruptly shatter paradigms each day. I love when teachers do this. I find it to be somewhat of an adrenaline rush. I aspire to be a better teacher of life, so any help would be of use. =)

      Ps,ps,ps: I went back and revised all my previous use of pronouns for the individual I use as an example.
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      Apr 22 2012: Mary,

      I laugh everytime I try to thump up your posts because I realized we are maxed out! HAHA!
  • Apr 20 2012: I do not believe there is any one method that iwill allow a paradigm shift as all people are different and respond to different stimuli based on their value system. I think that someone has to be open to changing thought patterns and is does take a long time to shift those patterns. What reason would you have to want to make a shift in the first place. People learn and grow and people come into our lives to help us learn and grow and sometimes those relationships end when we have both learned what we need to. It is sometimes healthy to end those relationships in order for both parties to continue their personal growth as well as To potentially change their thought patterns. You cannot make people change they have to want to change.
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      Apr 21 2012: Maybe it is the inner voice of my mother imposing her "Parental" desires on me. =P
      • Apr 21 2012: I think we all have those urges to change someone's thought patterns when those thought patterns are destructive to that person or to others but it is an exercise in futility unless the person is open to change. There are some people that are never open to looking within themselves and are oblivious to anything outside of themselves.
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    Apr 20 2012: Do you mean that the person clings to a misconception, or do you mean that this person acts on values you do not share?
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      Apr 21 2012: Possible misconception, but are certain religious views a misconception? Though, I try to never rule out any information, but certain information is, for a lack for a better word, out-dated. =/
  • Apr 20 2012: It seems to require what quitting smoking requires, volontary will or inner power to quit.

    But also to not be disturbed about it anymore.

    I hope to have been helpful.
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      Apr 21 2012: Maybe I should make pamphlets for people who believe in a certain idea....then that wouldn't be so disturbing or forceful. Though, I don't have that great of a desire. =/
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    Apr 20 2012: Why do you want to do this?
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      Apr 21 2012: I was thinking about how one of my friend is deeply religious, and this person has some ideas that are very narrow-minded. For instance, this person doesn't believe in evolution and I don't want to be inconsiderate and tell them that evolution is real and you didn't even consider it to be a possiblity that it could be true. Of course there are other situations as well.
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        Apr 21 2012: Until some believe system is harmful to others.....if someone is in peace with his/her belief , what is the reason to change that ?

        Well , I saw some so called non believer in youth & mid life (communist politicians) in my country to be converted in to religious fundamentalist in their later part of lives...........and they were far more dangerous then usual religious fundamentalists .....

        I wonder why they did it.....
        Well dirty politics could be one reason....
        The other reason can be romanticism of youth to walk in to non traditional way without understanding it full......
        Frustration due to failure of communism as a whole
        Greed.....as most part of life being communist they was living with very little but later after being converted in religious fundamentalist they were in all sorts of corruption to accumualte wealth ......applying religious sentiments is easy way to go near to the power center
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          Apr 21 2012: A teacher of mine gave me a prompt that asked, To what extent is it important to realize that social institutions affect individual's?, and I thought of the quote:

          "ignorance is bliss"

          when I read your response Salim, so I rearranged my teachers' question, To what extent is it important that individual's allow themselves to be ignorant to stay happy because I believe that the less you know the happier you may be, but who might be abusing you?

          Ah, too deep, head hurting. =/
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        Apr 21 2012: Derek...yes sometimes it seems "ignorance is bliss" and at times we crave for it..... !!

        What is ignorance what is not again depends on perspective.

        A scientist can think a poet is ignorant and vice versa.....It's like the "Blind Men" seeing Elephant a well known stroy that I shared in some other conversation here.

        The extent of ignorance depends again on first on one's attitude to learning and then also question of capability will come forward...

        To me if someone decides to remain ignorant about something it is not a concern until it becomes harmful to others.
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          Apr 22 2012: Salim,

          I can understand how leaving the issue until it is harmful can make sense, but if you and a friend got into a fight, would it not be more reasonable to solve the issue by talking the problem out, instead of ending a possible meaningful friendship?

          I have known people who make bad choices in life, but I had no knowledge of how to approach the issue correctly. I ended up blindly helping out this person and they became addicted to many drugs/alcohol and they ended up in jail. I don't want to see someone I care about end up in a bad situation like that, but granted, I don't think religion is bad, though even the Pope of the Catholic church agrees that it is relevant to their practices.

          According to these sources:

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution

          http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/4588289/The-Vatican-claims-Darwins-theory-of-evolution-is-compatible-with-Christianity.html

          So why has not more people heard about the realization of the religions themselves to certain facts. I think evolution is real and has also been "approved" by the Vatican themselves.
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        Apr 21 2012: Two questions for you:
        - What have you done to understand this person's point of view and the assumptions on which they base it?
        - What would be the benefit of having them change their viewpoint?

        Rationale of the first question is that if you haven't made any effort to understand the alternative point of view, you are arguing from a state of ignorance so your arguments will be weak.

        Rationale for the second question - do you understand your own motivation in trying to make this person change their mind? Does their viewpoint actually harm anyone or do you just want them to admit that you are right?

        As a rationalist who is comfortable with evolution as a pragmatic explanation, I regard evolution as being on a par with other scientific theories. That is, it is a *model* which fits the data I consider to be relevant. In other words, it is not an absolute truth, but it fits with my feelings of rightness. That makes evolution a subjective abstract theory. Bit like the religious perspective, yes?
        • Apr 22 2012: Anne, your wording is so.......so......perfect!!! Yes, these two questions are important in helping Derek.

          And, I think it is important to understand the other person, not necessarily wanting to change their way of thinking.

          Respecting and understanding the other person is so important.....they can find a happy medium.....
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          Apr 22 2012: Hi Anne,

          First question: You are absolutely right. I am ignorant to the full spectrum of religious belief, but I am curious and this curiousity causes me to question my own beliefs in life because I have a very superficial knowledge of facts, and the understanding portion comes with questioning the system itself.

          Second question: It could be a plethora of possiblities, such as: they could possibly realize their major in life because they don't know what they want to work as in the future, they could have more arguments against ideas, they could have more compassionate/tolerant to the many different views of the world because I got to know this person pretty well and we talk every chance we get,and we bounce ideas off of each other when we need help, they could understand and share something completely new about the world and show me a new side of the world I have never thought of, they could become the next greatest scientist, they could become even closer to me and we could have a stronger bond, they could hate me and never talk to me again, and they could see many things, but I won't know unless I try, but part of it is me trying to see if I am "right", though maybe I need to have my ideas shot down in order realize that I am not right and I usually use this event as a threshold for realizing a clearer path in life.

          I think it is the attempt that is the most difficult for many people because you really care for somebody, but sometimes you really want to share your ideas in order to grow more ideas and thoughts from these initial points of possible conflict and from these events, we strive to connect and hopefully understand more. I really do believe there isn't a stupid question because even ones that seem painful at first is necessary for someone to grow.

          I feel like fake friends are those who just want to constantly please one another, but sometimes you need to state these conflicts and hope to grow distant or closer from these events.
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          Apr 22 2012: We shouldn't be afraid to voice our ideas and opinions, but opening dialogue is essential to growing closer as a community.

          I found this very interesting talk and I think it is me attempting to understand religion, hope you can find this enjoyable:

          http://www.ted.com/talks/a_j_jacobs_year_of_living_biblically.html
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        Apr 22 2012: Derek,

        Understand & agree with your point regarding someone taking a bad decision or choice due to ignorance .....yes defintely as a human bieng we need to change their views......here I would correct my stand by saying ignorance or false belief should be adressed if it is self destructive as well.

        One thing I don't bother about is certificate given to any scientific thoughts by religious authorities....It happened in our history many times. Religious bodies denounced , rejected many scientific developments even punished the scientist but later gave certficate to that development. If someone needs certificate of religious body to accept Evolution then it's not understanding eveolution , it's just believing evolution like story of genesis.....it doesn't make sense to me.....

        When Hypocrites in ancient Greece wanted to study human body to discover cure for many human illness , religious bodies of Greece declared that to be immoral and anti-god act. Trying to cure disease or offering relief from suffering was considered as anti-God act.....as they used to belief disease or illness as curse of God....so treating that is anti-God !!!

        Are not now all religious leaders seeking treatment for their illness to the best medical facilities?Biggest fallacy is that everyone of us is beneficiary of scientific developments but many of us after availing all benefits denounce science partially or full......but beauty of science is that it tolerate all of them.....unlike religious bodies no scientific body ever punsihed anyone for not accpeting science at least to my knowledge.

        Jacob's talk is really interesting one , I watched it number of times. He is a good story teller but it seems TED brings him to talk just before his next book coming in to the market :)
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          Apr 22 2012: Well Salim,

          He has mouths to feed and stories to tell. I found him very intriguing and I am hooked to the idea of reading his 3 installments of the mind, body, and soul series. =)
        • Apr 22 2012: Hi Salim.......your mentioning Hypocrites makes me think of the talk by Mullis....

          http://www.ted.com/talks/kary_mullis_on_what_scientists_do.html

          He addresses how, in the past, the church has wanted to intervene in scietific advances and has condemned the efforts of scientists in the past....I think it is an interesting talk to watch.....he is very laid back and relaxed while he is talking.........he is sitting down for goodness sakes!!!!!!!!!!!!

          Anyways, hope that Derek views it.

          {Disclosure: No highjacking was required in the formulation of this reply, only the copying and pasting of a link.} HAH!
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        Apr 23 2012: That is a very good idea.....I am also interested in reading Jacob's books.
        He might have unveiled lot of things in those compared to what he did in his talks. What interests me about his book is his personal immersion into things idea, getting experience and then writing.......!!!

        Just go ahead please share your thoughts after reading :)
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          Apr 23 2012: It is the ultimate social experience, total immersion of an idea. It is rather difficult though, you have all your tools in order to begin. Many hours of research. =)

          Will do! I will spread the word of what the book is like.
    • Apr 22 2012: "Why"

      Yes.. that's exactly the question that bumped into my mind on the same subject.
      I hope you can help me with the english here :>.

      Gaining some knowledge helps us to achieve something in the world. Some actions give us a better result in compare with others, and most of the time it converts into a set of beliefs, becoming something that needs defense.
      When the last happens, seems that someone is only defending a internal belief. But one other case could be -if you see someone in pain because of recurrent use of the same idea, the same viewpoint.

      Now, learn to differentiate between a belief and a real situation turns to be difficult, requires total sincerity.

      Looking on the web I found some experiences about helping others.

      I found some excerpts like : "those who don't ask for help, are the ones who usually need it more."
      and
      "We can only help those who ask for it"

      sounds like it is no end. But something inside tell us that is not, but it seems difficult to understand. fortunately I got a quote from Ghandi: "“Be the change you want to see in the world.”"

      the implications are profound. taking it to practice requires a paradigm shift.

      I need help with this, I hope you can share some experiences about it...
      • Apr 22 2012: Hola Yuri,.....puedes excribir en espanol lo que quieres decir, porque no entiendo muy bien lo que estas tratando de expresar.

        Muchas gracias.
        • Apr 22 2012: Hola Mary...

          Aquí va..

          Cuando escuchamos ciertos puntos de vista, algunas veces reconocemos que el punto de vista de la otra persona no encuentra resonancia con el nuestro. Y es que algunas veces son sólo eso "puntos de vista" son formas de expresar lo que experimentamos. Es aquí donde encuentro bastante enriquecedor escuchar los puntos de vista de los demás y tratar de entendernos. Otras veces algunos puntos de vista se convierten en creencias que muchas veces se toman por hechos que necesitan ser defendidos.

          Pero hay ciertas ocasiones donde se plantea un objetivo. por ejemplo si reconoces que alguien tiene algún problema y que continuamente sigue reforzando-lo al no aceptar opiniones externas, y esta persona es cercana a uno. Nace un impulso de ayudar a esta persona, sin embargo encontrar la forma me resulta complicado.

          Sobre todo reconocer y diferenciar entre estas situaciones, debido a que saber reconocerlas requiere total sinceridad.
          Es en este punto donde considero importante escuchar experiencias de otras personas. Y me gustaría conocer alguna experiencia tuya y de los demás, de ser posible...

          gracias por tu interés Mary...... :D
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        Apr 22 2012: Yes Yuri,

        I am happy you stated these points. =)

        I am even more ecstatic you quoted Ghandi! I think Ghandi and I have become best friends recently, and it is all thanks to TED! =D
        • Apr 22 2012: Derek, I'm happy you started the thread. :>
      • Apr 22 2012: Hola Yuri, que bueno que escribistes en espanol.

        Si, "puntos de vista" son eso....."puntos de vistas"..........basado en nuestra percepcion de la verdad.

        Como ya has visto. La persona a la cual se refiere Derek dice que evolucion es bolony....bueno....esto por supuesto no dice nada. Simplemente es su punto de vista.

        Es muy dificil razonar con una persona con la mente cerrada. Esta clase de personal solo ve las cosas de una sola manera......de "su manera".. Como se dice en ingles...."My way or the highway".

        Yo creo, y te hablo como alguien que lleva muchos anos en esta tierra, que lo mejor siempre es tratar de entender el PORQUE las persona cree lo que cree.

        A veces es por tradicion.
        A veces es por serle leal a una iglesia.
        A veces es por temor de lo desconocido.
        A veces es por ignorancia.
        A veces es por orgullo.
        A veces es porque nadie a tomado el tiempo, motivado por amor, a explicarle el asunto de manera eficaz.

        Y existe la posibilidad que.....................somos nosotros los que estamos equivocados.

        O TAMBIEN existe la posibilidad que AMBOS tenemos la razon............simplemente no hemos hablado lo suficiente para entendernos.

        Todo esto se aprende con el tiempo.

        Lo mas importante para mi, es entender a la persona. Y, independientemente de que este de acuerdo con ella o no, seguir tratandola, y buscar...."teachable moments".......para dejarle caer una semilla de la verdad...........en este caso seria hablandole de la naturaleza, y como es imposible que se halla creado nuestro universo y tierra en seis dias literales.

        Yuri, con mucho gusto te dare experiencias, si puedo. Que clase de experiencias quieres que te cuente.......especificamente..?? Entiendo que se trata de reconocer y diferenciar situaciones, pero necesito que seas mas especifico.

        Muchas gracia Yuri, que estes bien.
        • Apr 23 2012: Mary,

          Sobre compartir experiencias, en general me refería justo a lo que anteriormente compartiste. Encontré inspirador: "A veces es porque nadie a tomado el tiempo, motivado por amor, a explicarle el asunto de manera eficaz".

          Y De manera especifica me refería a este caso: Si puedes notar que una persona parte de tu familia cercana, por mantener la misma idea, cae en problemas de salud; Cómo es que ayudas a esta persona?! Ya que ayudar en este caso especifico "su salud" requiere un cambio de paradigma en ella.

          Encuentro tu comentario: "Lo mas importante para mi, es entender a la persona. Y, independientemente de que este de acuerdo con ella o no, seguir tratandola, y buscar...."teachable moments".......para dejarle caer una semilla de la verdad"., muy acertado.
          Empezaré a hacer oportunos esos "teachable moments" para dejar caer esa semilla, que nos acerque más en lugar de alejarnos! :D

          Gracias Mary.
      • Apr 23 2012: A sido todo un placer Yuri. Me alegra que lo poquito que he aprendido y que haya compartido contigo te haya sido de provecho.

        Una servidora,
        Mary