- Peter Hodges
- Taunton
- United Kingdom
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Does religion have any relevance in the modern world ?
Given that most religions are founded on ideas and teachings that come from books written hundreds, or even thousands of years ago, and that their relevance to modern ideas have been superceded by scientific discoveries, is it logical to have any belief in religion ?
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Roy Bourque 20+
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJc8Mzg0C-c&feature=player_embedded
I don't have a problem with the teachings of science except for those that tell us we are a cosmic accident, That that which created the universe doesn't exist, and that there is no retribution for sin. Other than that, I have benefitted much from science including my way of life.
I separate the teachings of science with those of religion because they are not related in any way. One tells us how the universe is ordered and how it works, the other teaches us about our dark side and bids that we beware of its temptations and learn to overcome it.
Science can teach us how to build a nuclear weapon. Science cannot teach us where and when to use it. That requires a deep soul search. If you have lost your ability to search your soul, then there is plenty on the internet about how to survive a nuclear holocaust.
Enrico Petrucco 20+
Religion does not educate, it indoctrinates. That is the opposite. And the US is good at indoctrination.
I don't see the relevance of the link to fear-mongering propaganda that you shared other than to support my otherwise unsupported statement about indoctrination. Science is certainly not to blame for that propaganda, it is clearly derived from a faith-oriented perspective.
Should we not try to learn together rather than separate ourselves (or demonise)?
We will always have faith, and it is good as long as it is not immutable. Faith and reason must coexist and balance, without one we are not human.
Roy Bourque 20+
You don't think that our leaders did a lot of soul searching before deciding to drop the bomb? The United States decided on the grounds that fewer people would perish even though they knew the devastation that it would cause. That's not an easy decision to make.
As far as indoctrination goes, I have an issue with that myself. I see the value in religious writings even though I don't see the value in how it is being taught today. My fear is that we will lose the good with the bad. Whether you see it or not, you can conjure up a dark side with science if you ignore any moral implications on how it is to be used.
Should we not try to learn together; I say Amen to that. There is too much negativity coming from religion today. I have been at odds with it ever since I was in grade school. I have had spiritual experiences that took me beyond the words. I can only hope that others would share in those experiences. They are very positive, revealing, and uniting. They are what religion was intended to produce. If you want to reject modern day religion, fine with me. Just don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Enrico Petrucco 20+
Elsewhere there is an example on the issue that many believe the world is not as old as it really is regardless of the reasonable evidence.
Regarding Little Boy and Fat Man, I am sure many did soul searching, however it did not have significant weight in the decisions - Bob Lewis' remarks after releasing the former showed evidence of the cold rational operation that took place - deferred to reason. (if decision-makers soul-searched enough beforehand would they have refused to act?)
Reason and faith work together to give us our moral values.
No matter what I think I know I always allow myself to question, to assess my information along with someone else's perspective, that allows me to learn moral values on my own rather than by manipulation.
I maintain that the propaganda link is not due to the rejection of religion per se, may be the rejection of a certain religion, which is also done by other religions. So as long as there are multiple religions there will be such propaganda regardless of the fact that it is really faith that matters, not religion. Religion is merely an institution that seeks to indoctrinate people, no matter how subtle the action may be. It can not be otherwise because there is no religion (that I know of) which seeks to encourage followers to honestly question it's 'teachings'.
Religion leaves people in a potential morality trap, only when one embraces faith without religion can one be free of the potential morality trap. And likewise there is a morality trap with poor reason.
Colleen Steen 500+
You have made some good points that jump out at me, and I believe to be the basis of why religions don't work well in our evolving world.
You say "Religion does not educate, it indoctrinates"
Most religions do not encourage believers to really explore life. They "indoctrinate", as you say, with some of the same twisted information they have been using for years to control people. They encourage people to follow the words in the holy books without question. Sometimes, people follow certain teachings or phrases without knowing the whole context, and without question.
You ask..."Should we not try to learn together rather than separate ourselves (or demonise)?"
I say ABSOLUTELY learn together, and that is how we may live peacefully, respectfully, contentedly as humans, sharing this earth. Religions generally discourage connectivity with each other, while each religion is trying to convince everyone that they are the one and only, "right" one!
You write..."We will always have faith, and it is good as long as it is not immutable. Faith and reason must coexist and balance, without one we are not human".
I totally agree that to evolve peacefully, faith and reason must coexist and balance, and that cannot happen when people are balking at change. There are people who practice religions and also live peacefully in our changing world. I believe with that mindset, religions can be relevant. There are also believers who cling to the belief that the scriptures written hundreds of years ago are the one and only "truth".
"Reason", tells me that whatever people want to believe in the privacy of their own little world is ok....IF....it does not impact the freedoms and human rights of other people. When someone's belief impacts others, "reason" tells me that is not acceptable in our world, and that is when religions, or some religious dogma, seems to not be relevant. Faith should never usurp reason.
Roy Bourque 20+
The reason for the link is that I see a lot of it coming to pass. More and more potent drugs are getting to younger and younger people. We have a lot of drug issues in our community, many of which the people refuse to acknowledge (out of sight, out of mind). I know of educators that claim they are having trouble maintaining order in the classroom because there is no discipline at home. I see the poverty issue increasing. I see money going for job growth, but they aren't telling us how many existing businesses were lost because the community is being saturated by coffee shops, restaurants, and small business owners. They put up a Walmart. Caldors, K-Mart, and Ames all went out of business. I liked those stores better. No sooner do I see a new restaurant, I see closed signs on those we used to attend. Now you can sell your home back to the bank. It's called a reverse mortgage. Many young people are losing their inheritance because of credit card debt by their families. They want it all but can't manage their finances. We now have two casinos in our region. The gambler's anonymous flyers are all getting scooped up by people with gambling issues. My brother's company just took its production phase to China. Fortunately for him, he is in R&D and his job is still secure. But many of his coworkers will be getting a pink slip. It looks like the calm before the storm. All looks good on the outside, but people are hurting on the inside.
I have been fortunate. My walk with God has led me into the right decisions. My family taught me to question things, which I see as a blessing. They taught me to put trust in God by following my intuition. I was trained in the sciences and worked for an electric power company as the control room supervisor. So I have a lot of respect for science. But I also have respect for spiritual matters. I have felt a guiding hand in most of what I do. I see the benefits of an uncorrupted religion.
Colleen Steen 500+
You are right...we have drug issues, lack of discipline, poverty, an unsteady business climate and economy. gambling issues, outsourcing, etc. Religion has had centuries to "fix" the issues of the world, and in my perception, have often times caused more problems, rather than "fix" anything.
You are indeed fortunate that your "walk with god" has led you into the right decisions. I also have respect for spiritual matters and for those who choose a religious belief for him/herself. It is good that you see the benefits of a religion.
I see the benefits of religion for SOME people, depending on how one uses the religion. Some folks use religion as a beneficial life guide, and some folks use it to create more chaos in our world.
I respect you for your beliefs. It would feel really good if believers would respect my beliefs, rather than continually try to convert me. The message that is sent, when people think/feel that everyone must believe as they do, is that I am not intelligent enough, or informed enough to make my own decisions.
I have lots of friends and family who practice a variety of different religions on many different levels. Never, in all my life, have I encountered so much pressure to embrace religious, as I've encountered here on TED. Why do you not trust that I can make my own choices?
I agree with you that we are experiencing a lot of changes in our world. I truly believe part of the change, is that people are thinking and feeling for themselves rather than accepting the dogma other people are trying to give us. Embracing a religion, or a god, is NOT the ONLY way to live a meaningful life, and it's tiring to hear this story over and over again.
Thanks for your consideration to what I choose to believe, and how I choose to live my life.
I respect you and your choice as well. I too see the benefits of "uncorrupted religion", however, that is not what we have experienced in the past, nor are we experiencing it in our world today.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
I don't. Do we have problems yes.
I think you might be indicating that religion provided a moral compass.
Religion is a failing social technology because it is based on falsehoods. That there is a god or gods. That we know what god wants. These are the rules. And our interpretation is the truth and all others are wrong. It is so obviously man made it no longer works.
Its pronouncements are based on false authority. Religion is much more than a moral compass. It is deeply embedded in the self of self, tribe or nation. Don't forget all the bad stuff. You might think that is not pure religion. But that is what religion is as well. When a 13 year girl is mutilated to help promote morality - religion is in the mix. Religion can be used for good and evil. I support human rights. The rights of the child.
I agree with increasing freedoms there is the risk of pleasure seeking self destruction.
If you see from our point of view that religion is apparently manmade - a cultural construct - you can see how it has no moral authority. Once you detach it from your cultural imagined god it is nonsense.
I want to live a good live. I refuse to accept man made religious non sense.
So perhaps the solution is coming up with a secular moral compass.
Religion based on cultural superstition is no longer a sustainable solution to these problems
Roy Bourque 20+
No I don't believe that society is worse now that it was. Nor do I believe that religion is based on falsehoods. I believe that it is no longer understood. The fact that it is misunderstood doesn't make it based on falsehoods. The misunderstandings are falsehoods. And maybe it doesn't work for you but it still works for me because I don't just follow along with the teachings, I have gone way beyond that point.
As far as the bad stuff, I have to agree with you that there is a lot of it. I won't argue that religion is in need of reform. I won't argue that we need to accept the evidence of science. I won't argue that the falsehoods all need to be exposed. That is what I am trying to do here. But I will argue that we need to do away with it because it is all based on lies, because it is not all based on lies. There are a lot of lies and they need to be done away with.
I don't accept religion as truth when science tells me something different. I won't support the negativity it fosters to the ignorant. I won't allow myself to be blindly led. Nor will I judge those who find it pointless. I understand your viewpoint. I held that same viewpoint at one time.
Enrico Petrucco 20+
I hope you understand my overall perspective. I think I understand yours, in part...
I am still unsure about the motive behind having introduced the propaganda link and the inflammatory accusations that you accompanied with it.
Have I suitably explained my view for you to understand regarding the propaganda?
Please would you elaborate any continued justification that you may for the link (whether contradicting my view or not)?
Frans Kellner 100+
I saw the video from your link. If I was the devil I would make such a video to put fear back into the minds of the people.
Luckily there is no devil nor evil but lots of ignorance and stupidity.
There is no good nor bad there only are people that try to do the best they can, the best for what they know.
For this to work in a positive way it is necessary for humans to trust their inner guidance and live their personal characteristics. Our natural history has supported all things needed for human cooperation and all we call healthy. When natural behavior is suppressed by the rules of any society the result is frustration and even more if you need to fear what is natural.
So if religious rules and doctrines are replaced by love, parental love and brotherly kindness our inborn inquisitive mind will learn all it can know and with this knowledge return all love naturally through all our life to all we meet.
People that have missed this love from birth they need some bad, they need some devil for it can be regained only from all that is the opposite. Maybe you yourself have sometimes met some loving and kind person with a violent painful history.
Mary M. 100+
This is exactly what we are told in scripture Frans.......LOVE.......that is all it boils down to.
Some have already discerned this. Others are still fighting their way through the many many gears of the paradigm shift required to bring them to this enlightenment.
Changing the way we think is hard.
And, when you have money and power and fame it is almost impossible.
I think that is why the earth cannot have peace and harmony.........because those in charge are the ones with money, power, and fame.
I enjoyed reading your comment. And yes, many come to learn love and kindness because of past suffererings. If you are able, read and see what another TEDster ( I. Munoz) wrote to me a few hours ago in this conversation:
http://www.ted.com/conversations/10975/what_is_the_most_painful_lesso.html