jenese james belzer

grandmother,

This conversation is closed.

Could the problems that face the world today be traced to todays Religions - my answer is YES undoubtedly

Research now shows that beyond a doubt once God was a woman - that the ME and beyond was once a peaceful place where women and men lived in a divine relationship with each other and the natural world

Today so much of who we are as human beings has been lost - today we live in a world that is NOT heaven on earth despite thousands of years of religious rhetoric and dogma proclaiming love and peace

what is uncovered in our ancient past is that once upon a time a divine partnerships of woman and men = masculine/feminine were in a divine balance with all life - and then something changed to alter that and we have now ended up with a world on the brink of disaster because of it

neither men nor women fully comprehend who they are because the biggest lie ever perpetrated on humanity has been to tell them they are sinful and that women are cursed to suffer and bleed in pain - and that all who are born through the body of woman is sinful - an old belief yes ...but one very much alive - albeit hidden in the treatment of women and men today

i have no intention here of creating further division between the dysfunction that exists between the culturally entrained male and female - rather i seek to bring balance and divine complementary partnership BACK into the discourse

i seek conversation on this as i am proposing an audio visual presentation in 3 parts - the first will be - when god was a woman ....to expand our limiting view of ourselves ....

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      Apr 17 2012: Hi Chris

      Good points - i do get this - however my reason for starting the conversation was to see what others are feeling about this topic as it is a wide reaching one that affects all aspects and yes as we leave this cycle of time (age) and enter another cycle of time (age) then this humanity will start to grasp things that until now have been unconscious of

      i do think that the religions we have today are part of a conspiracy - the conspiracy being they cut out certain bits of information to fit a story that they wanted people to believe so that they did conspire to conceal certain things that did not fit that story and thus they are part of a huge conspiracy - all religious books have had the same done to them

      and while i agree with the aspects of the feminine and masculine - how they have been defined especially the feminine - passive, inner and negative have had a massive impact on the psyche of humanity especially women - creating and contributing to a massive imbalance

      the idea of separation are continued in the notion of two separate hemispheres of the brain this is done for our understanding because in truth nothing is separated ....the two halves make one whole - works and functions as a unity - the whole body does ....but in our way of understanding - in our way of expressing that understanding we create a division where truly none is - and its this - i feel - that is so inherent in the division between the feminine and masculine as witnessed in the world today ..

      yes balance is the key that is why there is a spiritual awakening - and why the rise of the divine feminine is re emerging - it has taken this long because nature always strives for balance and if not stopped controlled or imprisoned by definitions it would have happened long ago .....that is nature - nature seeks wholeness and balance in a world that is constantly out of balance because of the limiting concepts and systems of belief it has seemingly hardwired into its self
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    Apr 13 2012: bring back the earth mother. male gods are too, well, male. warlike, sexist, sexually mixed up.
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      Apr 15 2012: we don't have to bring back anything really - all we need to do is realize she is already there - and comprehend that we are already in a partnership with each other albeit a dysfunctional one

      every thing we need is right here its just a matter of shifting ones consciousness to see it and live it ....

      yes the warrior warlike sexist male is a cultural and relilgious and even marketing brainswashing - because one of the main reasons i wanted to start this conversation is because this way of seeing men has been a given ...and its not the truth - once there were no wars no warriors once women and men lived in peace with each other and nature - but all that changed ....so there is a huge history where men were never like this ....thats the whole point ...

      darwinism has cemented this erroneous belief system and look where its got us now ....conquest and war are NOT given characteristics of being a human being - they are learned they are symptoms of a massive disconnect with the sacredness of all life ....there was another way another time when this was not so ...but the worlds sacred books the religions have all sought to conceal this ....their lie has become the truth and the real truth of it has become heresy and a lie in their eyes....
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    Apr 13 2012: Jenese,
    You make a claim that we are on the brink of disaster because of religion. Have you ever looked into what religion has done to help societies? My mother lives in a small town in Maine. It was the bishop that persuaded the railroad to extend its rail to pass through the town. That move has brought untold blessings to the town. There is much more to religion than dogma. Like anything, there is good and bad to contend with. That is the basis of the teaching on Satan; beware of the bad. It exists in all walks of life, religious or not.

    When I was growing up, pollution was a major threat to society. We were on the brink of disaster then. Streams and rivers were dying. But societies tacked the problems and got through them. The Merrimack River in New Hampshire was a cesspool. Today it is pristine because of sewage treatment plants and laws governing the disposal of toxic industrial waste. Are the problems today any more threatening than they were then? Prior to finding solutions, all problems can be life threatening. But some cry wolf and some seek alternatives to combat the problems as they arise.

    There are religious claims that impede our finding solutions, I will grant you that. But many early scientists came from the religious sector. They were willing to look beyond what religion was teaching them. They found the very spirit within that sacred scripture reveals. The teachings are still there, but are held back by institutionalized religion. I have decided to go beyond the teachings and embrace them with science. I have found a good blend that many others are also finding.

    As far as bringing male and female back into divine complimentary partnership, I support your intention. Women are the flowers of life and shouldn't be mistreated and abused. They should be respected and loved as equals. In contrast to sacred scripture, some have proved to be better leaders and shouldn't be shunned in that capacity when so deserved.
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      Apr 17 2012: Hi Roy

      Within the religious concept this humanity lives within then of course there will be many things it does that are beneficial within a given community - religion - whose ever it is - has been the frame work that humans live their lives in - our laws came from religion - it is more expanded now in this 21st century of course and there are more freedoms

      however what i know about the goddess times - the times of women and men of partnership stands in such a contrast to what women and men think they are today as to be ....so limiting ....thus when beings are limited so is their ability to live in a limitless way - every thing will be filtered through their system of beliefs ....

      the whole concept of the devil and satan is the point - it never existed until much later in humanities evolution - thus fear is created where none need exist

      something essential has been lost by the way the feminine and masculine has been defined by the patriarchal churches

      the contrast of the early times when women and men were in a sacred and complementary partnership is so vastly different to what has been given us today that its easy to see why the world is the way it is

      and yes this world is on the brink of a huge disaster because of it - it lives like a leech unsustainably robbing future generations of a sustainable future while feeding the self gratification of a humanity who know longer remembers its sacred connection to the earth and earth other

      sadly environmental conservation has resulted from environmental abuse - now it is a normal way of life to protect the environment from unscrupulous corporate degradation and no care for communities - sadly many helping organizations have had to rise up and become normalized from this cultures abuses that it continues to think this is the way life is ...when once upon there was peace and women and men lived in harmony with nature and each other and all life

      until religion came along and created separation and divison
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        Apr 17 2012: Jenese,
        I agree with you on the subject of the devil and Satan. These are terms that have evolved by the Catholic church during its early years. The word devil doesn't appear anywhere in the old testament. It appears in the new testament as one who has a devil, meaning one who has an evil spirit (I believe this to mean a distortion in the mental field that causes one to act in an evil manner).

        The word Satan represents adversary, also referred to as the father of lies. We know that the mental field is where all our thoughts are managed. Distortions in the mental field (such as with misconceptions) will distort how we think about things. As such, the character represents something that we can relate; misconceptions that which will cause us to think irrationally. Beliefs which are false are all part of what the church calls Satan. Unfortunately, they can't see Satan in what they teach because they believe it is all true, even though much of it is unverified.

        Restoring a sacred connection to the earth and each other is part of what science is trying to do today. I believe it will succeed so long as it doesn't forget to teach responsibility. The ten commandments were founded on moral law and order. Many don't know what they are, and many don't want to follow them because they infringe on our freedom to do as we please. Many people want to see a better world, but they don't want to make the personal sacrifices which are necessary for a better world to exist. This is a dilemma. You can't have it both ways, and yet many want it both ways.

        What you are hoping for requires knowledge (whether through science or other forms of learning) and moral responsibility towards a greater good. Many current religious beliefs are counter-productive to this because they teach ideas that are not founded on truth. I have traced some to their roots and it is a twisted road that they have travelled. Hopefully, we can bring it all to light.
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          Apr 24 2012: HI Roy

          i totally agree with you about the notions of devil and satan - however i would go further by seeing that both the devil and satan by the definitions of both are the very religious orders this world continues to worship - and that these religious orders at the highest level know that they are fooling and maintaining a fiction on the world

          i also agree with your understanding of evil

          i don't know how science can restore a sacred connection to the earth in todays humanity except by showing there is one - i feel that connection comes from within and is sacred and beyond the level of god that exists in religion and its this i feel that sits in the heart of the feminine that give life to all humanity and because she does the church created an all male deity that denied the feminine in all her aspects except along his narrow and limiting beliefs and because this has allowed to become the 'norm' - it has created a huge imbalance a huge dysfunction in the world we live in that remains always a blind spot ....

          there are two of us here - woman and man and yet only one is represented in the religious discourse - no mother - where there was one in ancient times no sister when there was one in ancient times - and no sister hood when there were many in ancient times -

          knowledge is important but it depends about what knowledge - todays world has created such a division between what a woman is an what a man is that i believe very few of us will ever reach our full potential before death comes ....

          the 10 commandments were based on way older cultures long before christianity or religious order took over and yes i agree with you many do not know what they are and the churches conveniently forget them when the waged either wars on others

          it is knowledge of a way of being in the world as woman that is so contrasted today to those sacred ancient times as to make this humanity look like they are still in kindergarten

          i am hoping to bring it to light with this convo
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          Apr 27 2012: "The word devil doesn't appear anywhere in the old testament."

          Your playing with words Roy.

          1 Chronicles 21:1 (KJV)
          And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

          Job 1:6 (KJV)
          Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord , and Satan came also among them.

          Zechariah 3:1 (KJV)
          And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord , and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

          Etc. etc. 15 for Satan alone.

          :-)
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        Apr 25 2012: Jenese,
        I'm not sure what it is that you are trying to accomplish, or should I say, how you intend to go about it. Are women not succeeding because society is putting them down or are women not succeeding because they are falling victim to the stereotype that women are inferior? There are quite a few women Senators, and several women who have been very influential; Margaret Thatcher and Queen Elizabeth are two examples. So women can rise above the stereotype if they put their minds to it.

        In some places in the world, women are being suppressed. We live in a country that allows women to succeed. I think it's just a matter of finding what works and keep the ball rolling.

        As far as what God is, there is a big difference between what God is and what we think God is. The image of God as male or female is part of the process of personification. God has no sexual gender. God is the power that drives evolution. We give God a sexual gender based on our own image of ourselves. We need to be cautious that we don't try to put traits on God that don't belong there.

        Do religions know that they are fooling the public? I seriously believe that they themselves believe what they are teaching. How could they have such passion if they didn't? How we get them to see the truth is a problem that only gets resolved by revealing more and more of it. It took quite a number of years for the world to see that the earth was not at the center of the universe. And yet, there are trained theologians who still believe that the earth is only 6000 years old. Those who don't understand the evidence of science are persuaded in their delusions. It's a problem that won't go away overnight.

        I wish you well. People should be considered as equal. It is human nature (stemming from the animal within) to compete for the position of top male. It is the spiritual person that knows we must rise above this conviction.
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          Apr 26 2012: part II .....only so many characters allowed

          what women found when they started the research back into time - past the religious story was a herstory of incredible information that this current age continues to ridicule at best and dismiss as irrelevant and lies at worst -

          here in New Zealand we also had a female PM the amount of hate coming from men towards here was staggering - however the system these women step into is male - is patriarchy by its very nature - she has little choice but to conform to it as most women do from birth

          in truth your correct the energy peoplised as god is genderless however - here on earth it has been termed male personified as a he him his a holy father that rues over every one with one son - there is no feminine representative to express women's unique take on the world only one male defined world view that we are all supposed to conform to and it doesn't fit women when they start to question the deeper feelings they have that something vital is missing ...

          there are two of us here male and female but only one is represented the other is forced to conform to the others definitions of it - both become lessor for it and there is NO balance

          my point is roy that there is a vast history here a herstory that lies so buried as to be erroneously categorized as myth that would help the human race understanding itself in way more expansive terms than the narrow defined male world view and order has given us

          what is needed now is a return to this knowing ...

          politically things like family, childcare, basic community care education etc all these things are on the bottom of the political agenda because its not the male domain and when women get into power they bring these to the table only to be trivialized

          the world is blind in one eye because of it

          equality comes from being alive regardless of gender ones existence is equal

          i hear what your saying roy and thank you for the conversation
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        Apr 27 2012: Peter,
        Yes I am playing with words. But then, isn't that what religion has done all along? My father believed in purgatory and it nearly destroyed him. I was taught that Satan rules this world, but no clarification was given as to what that means. I was taught that we are under a curse even though the curse was lifted after the flood. For nearly four centuries, the Catholic church tortured and executed witches in the name of Jesus Christ. If that isn't a play on words, I don't know what is. Roy
  • Apr 12 2012: jenese, I agree with you. I respect people to live according to their own highest consciousness of what is right. Authority figures tend to mislead people into thinking they are lesser than the authority figures. I guess they hope to profit from that somehow. I think people would be better off - including the authority figures - by acknowledging their equality and cooperating in life. It would be good to let go of the command/obey patterns thrust upon us. It diminishes people. It holds down the human race. People are born with positive tendencies, e.g., love, laughter. These should be encouraged. Power to the positive!
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      Apr 13 2012: Hi Rhona,

      i agree also - the commandments were also from a far earlier time, the church used them and changed them to fit their story - the facts are that religions stole and adapted very ancient what has been termed - now- pagan - values and co opted them and turned them into something other that what they were - thats been my point - so much can now be known about how they did this - its not hidden -that its time to actively challenge and expose them
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    Apr 12 2012: The idea of male vs. female to me can’t be true outside of one person. As a parent of three there is no way that I can ever differ between my son and my daughter, how could a creator differ between its own creations??? Why can’t we look at ourselves and look at what the reality of the so called holy books are, did they represent a different gender or did they actually meant YOU, the mind as woman and the heart as the man. We are the strangest being on earth, we have the power of choice and with that we are determined to make choices that can cause pain for other being.
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      Apr 12 2012: Hello Tina

      While its true that religions have created a huge man vs woman reality or superior vs inferior mentality it becomes so obvious that it was woman who carried the heart energy so that when 'man' created god in his own image he separated from the divine heart/feminine and for ever after created a huge imbalance

      in truth divine energy is neither male nor female but contains both - here in this reality we are representatives of those polarities - now i feel we are being challenged to come back into sacred partnership where they can again come together in divine right relationship the sacred marriage of ancient time - only when this occurs can real oneness be experienced - at least in my understanding

      i am also a mother of 3 and a grand mother of 4 - and i do not love any of them less because of their gender - but religion does

      that is why for me - the single most profound meaning of the great cosmic mother of our early ancestors was she represented THE UNITY OUT OF WHICH ALL LIFE CAME - there is nothing in mans religion that can do that

      i feel it is our challenge now as women - and men - but especially women to reclaim this history and bring it out into the open so that we can start moving forward into this divine partnership together as women and men and see the equality of our existence and our complementary relationship

      i believe that knowing this can change the world, indeed i feel deeply that until this IS KNOWN nothing much will change - there has to come a time when we heal this huge division this superior/inferior duality that stands between our eventual unity ...
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    Apr 12 2012: Sorry, Ms. Belzer, I did not read your idea until after answering another, nearly identical one from Mr. Westlund. Here is my two-cents worth:
    What would be the evidence of being set free from the bondage of religion? Would the human race live together in peace? Would human life including the unborn, the physically and mentally challenged, and the elderly, be nurtured by society? Would adultery; fornication; uncleanness; lasciviousness; hatred; wrath; strife; seditions; envyings; murders; drunkenness; revellings and such all disappear? Would love; joy; peace and goodness become the character of all humans? I know many people who have freed themselves from any and all religious conviction (unless you consider Atheism and Agnosticism to be religions). Those folks are no more "advanced" than any of the religious folks I know. The root cause of man's bondage is not religion, Ms.Belzer. The root cause is man's nature. If a person is not changed within they are not changed at all.
    • Apr 12 2012: But this one is more about female/male stuff than about religion per se Edward.
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        Apr 13 2012: Hello Gabo

        well yes it is because what is passed as religion today has been taken by conquest from a much earlier time that held women in high regard as opposed to what has been taught for the last 5000 years - so it will be - can't get around that

        there is a huge imbalance between men and women that has been enforced by religions and entrained by culture

        what has been taught has created a huge battle between the sex's has created feminism all to try and regain women's rights and status that she once had and that has been ripped away from her by demonizing so many of the ancient ways and taking complete control of her sacred knowledge and wisdom

        for instance the myth that comes to us as Medusa - here was a powerful priestess/goddess whose crown was depicted as snakes ...snakes being the holder of wisdom - she was the protecters - the guardian of this sacred wisdom held for many thousands of years before her - and who stole it ?? and now she has been turned into a vile evil creature because it serves the purpose of concealing the reality of a theft -;- the greek myths are the story of the upsupring - the taking over from one way of living - sacred partnership were women and men were respected and equal - to another where suddenly over time women lost her status and her wisdom and knowledge was corrupted and used against her ...

        so the conversation will always be more about women at this level until enough men and women begin to realize that there is a greater truth here that needs to be heard
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      Apr 12 2012: Hello Edward - good questions - i would be interested to know where the other conversation is if you can let me know would be good

      However to answer your question - i feel that most people leave religion because they see through the dogma - meaning they don't believe however every thing you relate are indeed realities of life but to me they are symptoms of something much greater and that is - a total separation from the real meaning of life that religion has sought to obscure /control/limit and define - in this sense they still live within the concepts and so are still exhibiting the symptoms of being disconnected from life in a deeper sense .....

      the concept of original sin is deeply ingrained - the pyschological imprint of not being good enough is very strong and deeply rooted in this story ...and because it is a persons feeling state that makes them do the things you describe then to me it is a huge disconnection from a inner knowing that says that they are separated from a loving source and not good enough ....

      the other argument re natural evolution is equally as devoid of connection to this inner source ...giving rise to the realities you mention above

      so my answer to you is that religious belief is so deeply ingrained and encoded in our belief structure that 1) most don't' know it - and 2) it shows the symptomatic neurosis of a species who does not know its own inner source/connection

      does that make sense ?

      Thank you for replying
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        Apr 13 2012: It will take me a while to digest your sweeping reply. For now here is the info on the post you asked for:
        in Ideas look for "I propose that religeon is the major factor holding back the advancement of the human race."
        More later, thanks.
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    Apr 26 2012: hello Roy

    the system we live within is male defined on all levels - its been termed patriarchy for this reason - the religious male right has dominated every thing and defined women along very narrow lines - this becomes stunningly evident when - as a woman you feel you are contorting yourself to fit a role you really don't feel comfortable being and start searching because something deep within you tells you this is not who you are - not fully - not really - and so you search and search and you find that you are not the first woman to feel this or to search so you discover that many women have gone searching for what they felt was missing - who felt they could not conform to the narrow lines that the male world had ascribed for us and what was found was shocking

    the contrast between how women where once respected and her power celebrated and how she now has been defined and limited along very narrorw lines defiend by men - via religious doctrine was stunning and vast

    here her true nature was discovered - she could breath again in this knowledge woman found solace from the deeply limiting and self negating roles they had been ascribed - and even though we live in the 21st century this knowledge is not widely known - but women every where even young women today feel the loss of it so deep they keep seeking 'women's rights ..they seek but they don't really know what they are missing - because so few know the truth

    the goddess was the symbol of the unity out of which ALL LIFE COMES the great cosmic mother which was represented by the feminine form a large bellied breasted woman was to the ancients the true creatix for out of her came all life - un prejeducided ...contrast this with todays world where still little girls are killed or left to die

    in those time there was partnership where both men and women knew themselves - where whore or harlot and haram meant temples for women - where virign simply meant strong independent woman
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    Apr 20 2012: Well said, Thank you!
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    Apr 13 2012: what kind of research would that be? any references?
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      Apr 15 2012: merlin stones when god was a woman
      Raine Eslier - chalice and the blad - sacred pleasure
      The great Cosmic Mother - mojic Sjoo
      the work of Majia gimbutas
      Barbara G walker

      the list is endless really ...all women have done masses of research so there is no need to re invent the wheel in that way - their research is professional academic and scrupulous ..+ there is also the memories or handed down stories of the worlds indigenous peoples

      does that help ?
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    Apr 13 2012: Thank you Edward for that i will go and check it out

    haha i don't talk in seven second twitter type bytes - be interested in your reply

    cheers
    j
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    Apr 13 2012: Jenese,
    I side with Edward Long, would getting rid of religion make us better people? The answer is yes and no depending on what kind of people we are to begin with. I have always been a religious minded person, but I have not let religion dictate what I believe, nor can I say that life is not heaven because of what I believe. I have made decisions based on spiritual convictions, and I can say that my life is very peaceful and well managed because of it.

    What does religion have to do with drug cartels? With human trafficking? With political corruption? With sexual dysfunction? With street gangs? With climate change? With earthquakes and volcanic eruptions? With drought? With hurricanes and tornadoes? With forrest fires? These are all human and environmental issues. Religion has tried to deal with the human issues, and help us cope with the environmental ones, albeit not very well at times. Can science do any better? Well it obviously has, but not in spite of religion, but as a further development of our understanding. Religion still maintains cohesion in many communities, and teaches morality and ethics, something that science is willing to put aside for the almighty dollar.

    I will side with you on what many people believe concerning what they have been taught with regards to religion. Religion today is not what it used to be. Our sinful nature is the carnal nature, not the human nature as a whole. Religion was developed to help us rise to the spiritual nature, where the carnal nature would be brought into submission. Today, we only hear of the sinful nature, making life on earth something to be dreaded. That needs to change.
    We also have a society largely controlled by men. In the scriptures, women have been belittled, and often subverted by religious fanatics who see them as property rather than equals. In the new testament, women were to be loved, but many have perverted this to sex slaves.

    I say reform religion, don't blame it.
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      Apr 17 2012: Hi Roy

      from my perspective todays religion will have to change - it has been built or founded upon much older and ancient and more holistic understandings that came before it but has dogmatized it and censored it to fit a patriarchal way of living in the world that did not really honor woman in a sacared or powerful way - instead it defined her as lessor and made her the property of men in marriage and in all things she was demeaned

      this is horrific coming from a time when she was highly valued and deemed sacred because of her abilities that few no longer remember enough to exhibit

      the fact that women lost her own wisdom her own connection to her divinity and sacred connection and her own wisdom filled voice was silenced is partly why the world is the way it is ..why men are out of control in that sense of sex trading rape and other abuses - without going right into it or writing a book about it you would have to have done some research about the ancient times and the esteem that women were held in to understand how far the fall has been and how it has helped create this world and all its crap against nature

      nature is also defined as feminine you know ....

      the male defined god system of he his and him does not include women - a brother hood of man negates a sister hood there is no mother to the father and no sister to the brother in that story - a patriarchal definition of what life is and how to live it stands ....giving rise to an incredible imbalance and a chaos

      it has separated people from their own divinity creating fear not love spreading division not unity

      we have NO sinful nature - we are divine in nature thats the whole point - how damming to be told you are sinful that new borns are born sinful ....the great cosmic mother revealed the unity out of which all life was born - she did not judge the worthiness of her children all were equal .....

      religion is based on a way older divinity that is love at its core and women are the key to it
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        Apr 17 2012: Jenese,

        I've heard the evolution of religion described in terms of magic in the earliest times of our modern consciousness.
        Followed by the mythic age - Genesis stuff.
        Science has explained away much of the mythical beliefs
        Now we rely more and more on personal experience which is perhaps a thread through the history of religion.

        Sounds a bit like you want to focus on the magic part - less dogma, more personal expirence

        Although the main religions today are deeply embedded.

        the Abrahamic religions are particularly male dominated.
        I have found the practice of Buddhism is predominately Buddhist countries also surprisingly sexist.
        Lamas and patriarchs are always men. Buddhist nuns have a lower place then monks.
        My more limited view of say a Hindu country like India is that women also struggle.

        I'm not sure if this is non relgious cultural aspects or religious driven or a viscous circle.
        The religion reflected the culture it was born in and now reinforces the values into perpetuity.

        Overall, the place of women has benefited from non religious enlightenment values of secularism and equality.

        I guess there may have been religious systems that were more women focused. Perhaps as our population grew, competition, conflict and tribalism pushed us to warlike masculine beliefs.

        Are you talking about pre writing religions with eve figurines 10,000-30,000 years ago?

        Or are you referring to the the ancient greeks or eqyptians with their personified male and female pantheons with Isis etc.

        Or a Gaia concept?

        One thing I would add is while there may be social consequences of more feminine beliefs, while some older religious beliefs may have had a more feminine aspect, it does not make them any more or less likely to be cultural and psychological delusions than the current dominant crop of religions.
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          Apr 17 2012: Ahh master ob 1

          heres the thing - history shows us that the whole of Arabia was once governed by the goddess Al-Lat - that queens ruled the land in different way than kings rule - and the black stone in mecca still guarded by the 'sons of the old woman' beni shaybah - Mohammed village was also the guardians of ancient goddess wisdom - and he got kicked out for trying to change it but he did an over time allah came to power and look how women are treated now ....

          The same thing happened every where in a process that rupert sheldrake called morphic resonance - look it up in google - which is why Buddhism also has the male ranking over the women/nuns - it was pointed out to the dali lama that their is a core belief in Buddhism that no one can attain enlightenment in a women's body !!! that is how strong the fear and the hatred of the feminine has been indoctrinated into the world and maintained by a religious order that continues to preach love but teaches division and separation and fear

          Science is also based on a deeply rooted male perspective of newtonian physics which does not see the living world so much as a living thing but as a thing to be exploited - Descartes saw man as a machine and philosophy has the watch maker as its king pin

          yes i am talking about pre neolithic times

          i am more convinced than ever that what we think we know of those times has been heavily tainted and corrupted by an androcentric male mind that still believes the human race some how evolved from monkey's .... i believe that so much has been forgotten about our ancient past that this humanity has to wake up and remember because it will one day be our future and so all ends are leading us towards that moment and that religions will collapse along with all the other unsustainable things that keep humanity enslaved and fearful

          remember though that patriarchy is a system of beliefs still very much entrenched - we are all soaking in it in a sense and it does none of us any good at all
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        Apr 17 2012: Chris, I guess most myths associated with the creation of universe and life etc:
        Dream time myths, creation in 6 days, adam and eve, pandora, Zeus living on mount Olympus, Hindu cycles, 6000 year old earths, Rangi catching the sun in a net, humans living side by side with dinosaurs. etc

        When you throw in reason - conflicting claims - at most one religious interpretation may be literally correct. IF all the gods imagined are real, there must be a lot of redundant ones with no followers.

        Deist beliefs avoid a lot of this baggage. Many modern believers don't take these stories literally, but selectively believe in other miracles. Some people still take these stories literally.

        I'm sure all this can be repackaged in other ways.

        Discussing religion and gods is a slippery - even Christians have individual and sectarian views. God is everything from the energy from living things in the universe, a group intellence, to a jewish carpenter
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        Apr 17 2012: Jenese,
        I agree that religions need to change. But it is a two sided coin. Many women like the status of men in control, so long as they are not mistreated. Many currently exercise control by being able to persuade men by their feminine influence. For these, it is not male domination but male atrocities that they desire to see changed.

        During the Egyptian empire, Isis was the dominant figure. But pharaoh was generally a male because he commanded the warrior force. I believe that it was this motive that religion became male dominating. It was during this time that conquest wars dominated history. Women were to be guarded and protected. However, the transition to male domination of women as slaves or property slowly took root, and it has grown to extremes in the Muslim communities.

        As far as humanity as being or not being sinful, tell me the above isn't sinful and I will argue with you. This was the carnal nature that Eastern philosophy was seeking to combat. It was the Catholic church that introduced the concept of original sin, and it has corrupted what Eastern philosophy was all about by changing our concept of sin.

        I Believe that much of our problems come down to survival of the fittest where we have lost touch with nature. Science is restoring that connection with nature in a new way. Yet those who understand it and live their lives as responsible citizens are only a percentage of the population.

        How do we reach the rest? How do we change a mindset that is taught from birth? Our military is dealing with the hard-core militants, but there are many who hold to fundamentalist beliefs. Is it because they can't understand anything else? Or is it because they have had experiences which they can't ignore?

        I wrote a book called "The Merging of Two Worlds" because I understand science but also had experiences that I couldn't ignore. I believe that I am only one of many who are finding this to be true.
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      Apr 17 2012: I agree Roy. The truth would set us free.

      Religion had a place in human development.
      Like feudalism
      Like Monarchies

      Lets move on.
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        Apr 17 2012: Obey,
        Let' move on to what? Survival of the fittest? I am finding many who are taking up that banner. Science is a wonderful tool. But in the absence of morals and ethics, it can become a monstrous tool. There are many modern day movies that try to present the potential horror of the misuse of science.

        Soap operas are becoming a standard way of life for many people. I find it very disturbing because of what people are willing to do to further themselves or gratify their lusts. It is all becoming part of the modern day mindset.

        I don't feel that modern day religion can keep us from that path. It is too caught up in dogmas where the importance of those making claims in past time has become the basis of beliefs. Such was the case with Aristotle's crystal spheres, which survived for nearly two millennium. Such was the case with Saint Augustine's claim that a baby that dies without being baptized would go to hell. There are many current day beliefs which have no more truth than crystal spheres. Yet a world without ethics and morals is not much of a world either. So how do we get rid of the bad without getting rid of the good? There is a part of religion that we can't afford to lose, and that is the part that says we owe our allegiance to that which created us.
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          Apr 17 2012: Good question.

          I suggest we have made great strides in the last few hundred years, even the last 60 in the west.
          Statements of enlightenment values - equality, freedom etc
          End of slavery
          Universal suffrage
          Civil rights
          Womens rights
          The UN declaration of human rights
          etc

          We don't become moral vacuums if we dump religion.
          We can encourage and build on the values above.
          We just have the freedom to dump the negative bronze age and medieval values enshrined in some religions. I think this will help us improve the human condition.
          Humans have physically evolved to be capable of ethical assessment and our science and philosophy and social and political and legal development supports us to be better than survival of the fittest.

          I just don't get how people think religion is needed or we will revert to survival of the fittest.. The advances of the last 5000 years won't suddenly dissapear. The US bill or rights will still be there etc.

          I note most religious people pick and choose the morality bits. Even the ten commandments - no graven images, no god but me, not working on the sabbath - we largely ignore these.

          The Jews are not stoning adulterers despite what their book says. Some muslims do.

          PErhaps if we shift owing our alligence to humanity not different gods we would be all be better off.
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        Apr 18 2012: Obey,
        I agree with most of what you said. However, I think that there is a truth underlying what religion has been teaching that needs to be brought out. I see quantum mechanics as the creator. If that is what God refers to, then there IS only one God, and we would be putting ourselves at risk to abandon it for something else. That is not what religion teaches these days but it should be.

        Despite the fact that lawmakers took prayer out of schools, our political system is firmly rooted in religious symbols. Many of our politicians are Masons which is all built on symbolism, so they seem to know that science alone is insufficient to get us through difficult times. I agree that many bronze age and medieval values are still rooted in mainstream religions, and they need to go. But don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Find the baby.
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          Apr 18 2012: I agree Roy, many find consolation in religion whether it is true or a delusion.
          Perhaps there are other benefits. social connection etc.

          As a non believer I guess I manage through the ups and downs of life just as well as any believer. I suspect I may find life on earth even more precious than those that believe in an afterlife or reincarnation.

          So I disagree we need it. Different question if we want it or whether the benefits outweigh the negatives. I think we are a fairly durable and adaptable species - we can deal with a reality without a personal creator or interventionist god.

          I don't see religion going anywhere fast, just a gradual decline. Plenty of time to adjust.

          Perhaps we don't need religion to address the key concerns of the baby. But we'd probably disagree with what is essential etc. We might agree on dropping the robes and trappings. I'd probably be willing to sacrifice many other things, the get togethers etc. But we'd keep ceremonies for marriage and death etc.
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        Apr 18 2012: Obey,
        If people find consolation in a religion that is delusional, I would have a problem with that too. I hope to dispel the delusions to get to the bottom of it.

        I can accept your not needing religion. There are some who understand it and realize that it connects us to something far greater than ourselves. They would take offense if you tried to undermine what they have come to know. If your only intent is to reveal the truth, then you have my blessing. But make sure it is the truth. And I will equally agree that religion should do the same.

        I believe in a personal God only because I made it personal. I took the time to connect and feel personally involved with what has become a guiding force in my life. I can say that it has not only kept me out of trouble, but has earned me a great deal of respect.

        Organized religion is declining because of what it currently teaches. I am seeing a growing trend toward spirituality. People are coming to know that there is far more to life than just what you can see or explain through science alone.

        Getting together was intended not just for religious purposes but to share concerns and needs. This is still the case in some churches whereas it is no longer the case in others. When you find yourself in need in time of loss of a loved one, victim of crime, loss of a job, or sliding down that slippery slope to addiction, who do you turn to? A parish is often a place to connect. Sure, there are social services but who can afford them? Often not the people who need them. Having a place to go to deal with your troubles is a very real need for some people. If you knew the number of people who have been rescued from addiction, prostitution, gang life, etc., you might have a different view of it. I might agree that religion isn't the only means, but it is one of the means that we might not want to part with. Let's fix the problems and move on.
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          Apr 20 2012: I'm for the truth.

          And freedom of religion (within limits - no human sacrifices and genital mutilation of children for starters) and freedom from religion.

          I'm also for freedom of speech and happy to debate, discussion, refine, learn, test my own and others assumptions.

          So one of the contradictions I get from your last statement is that consolation from imaginary gods is a delusion. I agree. Is the net result good or bad or neutral - I don't know although I'm learning to we'd be better off without it. But I won't go into the details here.
          Then you mention the personal guiding force you believe in. Might this also be a delusion?

          I think I get your point that something from self exploration and experience might be closer to the truth than a cookie cutter traditional religion, but experience is all up to subjective interpretation.

          Still if it helps you. If it makes sense to you that is much better than when I was a Christian thinking a lot of this Christian seems "off".

          So I'm all for personal exploration especially if not restricted by dogma.

          When people mention touching the divine and other transcendent experiences or more intellectual eureka moments stumbling across some connections and ideas that make profound sense - I get that these are real experiences. Personally I've had some profound experiences but never the spoken word of god etc. I'm just not sure they are proof of any type of god or intelligence etc.
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        Apr 20 2012: Obey,
        Delusional gods ARE bad. Why do you think that the early church had such strong feelings against idol worship; because they were delusional gods and they wanted nothing to do with them. So when a church brings delusional gods into their dogmas, they are going against their own heritage.

        Delusion is an open door to deception, the very idea that Satan embodies. When the mind tries to compute with false data, it leads to no good. God is accepted as the highest authority. Many make command decisions based on what they perceive as God. So when people try to compute with false notions of God, they are liable to do some very disturbing things. This is where the church is in greatest danger.

        My personal experience about God calmed my fears at the time, but I didn't take it as truth until science taught me the same thing. It was confirmation of my earlier experience that I began to regard it as truth. Until that time, I held it in the back of my mind as something that I really didn't understand, but worth pondering as to what it meant. That was the main point of Eastern philosophy; you had to search it out until you understood it. This was the pathway that led to Christ; the seventh energy chakra of spiritual development. When the church went against Galileo, it began the road to separation from the truth. That is why atheists are so opposed to the church today. I say the church needs reform, but I am opposed to trying to get rid of it because of what I gained from it despite its flaws.
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        Apr 24 2012: HI

        lets move on - now that is an interesting statement - to what ? while i agree with you entirely lets look for a direction ?

        this humanity has no idea what god is for a start ....so moving on ....what is this thing called god ? for the most part is has been taught to every one that god is a male - a HE and that he is the creator - and that HE had a son and that there is a brother hood of man that talkes about love but inspired fear and hatred that talks about compassion but but acts or doesn't act or intercede for the majority of humans that give him voice ?

        so lets move on - of course we don't need this kind of dogmatic religious belief where the value of women has been so demonized that this humanity tries to masculine her and allows only a few of her attributes to define her - yes lets definitely move on from this idea - its caused nothing but hatred and imbalance

        so science ....hmm ....can science tell us what god is ?

        and why is there a need for something like a god ....?

        and what about who you are as a person or who i am as a individual - and what about who the human race is and why ?

        why do people exist, is the a reason other than because so many like sex and men still ejaculate within women and create so many unwanted un planned for children - is there a reason for our existence a purpose ?

        why do we die ? why are we born - do we choose it ?

        what is a soul and why would one want to be born into this human form ?

        are these not the questions that religion arose to answer ?

        man keeps looking at the big bang in scientific terms - it could simply refer to the collision of one neuron into another when life emerged or the idea of creating life or the feeling of having an idea about creating life

        is existence meaningless ?

        can science make it so

        are men still defining life and the way it works from their unconsciousness understanding of themselves ?

        yes lets move on - but to where ?

        sorry but i just had to jump into the conversation