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Does growing wealth change human behavior?
The question is really straightforward, no strings attatched.
Of course I don't mean behavior as consumers. This is naturally different when one's purchase power increases. Rather, I ask about human soul and interrelations.
For inspiration: "The Road" by Cormac McCarthy (book and/or movie)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbLgszfXTAY
And yes, let this be our reflection for Easter!
09-04-2012:
Also consider a new idea: when wealth is deserved - people's characters dont change. They are corrupted only when they receive sth. undeserved.
Jedrek Stepien 10+
How about this: when you get richer but you deserve it you don't change; but when somebody gives you something for free your soul gets corrupted.
I think it makes sense. And you?
natasha nikulina 50+
And what you need the most you are given for free : air, water, sunlight...
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Hubris probably depends on the individual. Although circumstances may be a factor. If you are born into wealth there may be more risk than if you worked hard for it.
Once you get to a certain level of wealth, it compounds and grows, with the increment more than you reasonably need. It is not really deserved. It is just math.
You probably can guess I doubt the existence of a soul, but believe there is a risk to a persons psyche from high wealth. But some individuals manage to stay reasonably grounded. Others don't.
The second or third etc generations born into wealth have their own issues. You can get caught in a culture of elitism. Private schools. Privilege etc.
Jedrek Stepien 10+
In Brazil the 'bolsa familia' package had to be based on some kind of conditions like attendance of children in schools etc.
Normally people take it and spend it carelessly, easy come easy go.
Effort is crucial, I think, in order to respect yourself.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Even a college education takes money, even if you get a scholarship, money helps.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
When you feel successful there is a rest of feeling superior or entitled.
You also risk forgeting the value of money to those not so well off.
When your old friends don't want to go to expensive restaurants, when you are talking about the last overseas holiday etc you can alienate others.I get sick of the women taling about hand bags and shoes - Chanel this LV that.
I range from feeling lucky, proud of my hard work and ability, scared of losing what I have, a bit guilty, through to slightly superior.
This conflicts with my old equality, lefty liberal youth.
I lived in a developing country for several years with a driver and maid. You do feel a bit special. The local wealthy upper classes felt very entitled and this seemed alien and strange at first but you adapt, often for the worst.
I do alright but have some challenges. I wonder how the truly wealthy feel, the 1%. Are we all muppets to them. I've had some interactions and tend to have a negative view.
Jedrek Stepien 10+
i think you have brought up a very importans aspect of "Old friends". They can sometimes be an acid test for your character (if you know what I mean) and how much you have changed since leaving your hometown.
Still, there may be sometimes a wrong feeling of guilt. What if you - the successful one - have not changed but your old friends have simply deteriorated by staying in one place?
I will repeat the great celtic adage (which Natasha here likes so much) which says that the more things change the more they stay the same. Those who believe that they can dispense with all changes in order to be safe often experience supreme instability.
It's funny, but true.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
We may disagree passionately in other areas, but if no one commented or started conversations TED would be pretty dull.
Another test might be your own siblings or parents, cousins etc. Its okay if everyone is in a similar postion but envy or embarrasment can develop if the spread gets too big.
natasha nikulina 50+
Can 'acid test' serve as a metaphor for judgement ?
natasha nikulina 50+
Sorry, but i can't agree with the premise.
It's what the society we were born to makes us to be and expects us to be.
But it is not who we are.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Just look at sport. I believe we are a competitive species and there is lots of evidence for this.
Wars etc.
Some individuals more or less than others.
Kids who can not afford may get teased. As we age will may try to moderate this behaviour.
Other choose to reject it and become hippies. We have instinct but also reason.
Having resources and wealth is still a factor for mating.
Likewise the body langauge, the alpha males etc, hero worship, fashion or opinion leaders, the love for monarchies are indications of our hierachical group behaviour. I'm not a monarchist - the opposite in fact. I for as much fairness and equality as reasonable balanced against rewards for personal effort.
James Turner 10+
Two: you use the million bucks to buy small time politicians and get kick backs from government contracts, or leads on stocks in companies the government is going to give contracts to. With that money you buy bigger and bigger politicians off and now you have more control and all this using the money in the bank. Suggest you read about George Soros as an example of what I am talking about. He owns lots of politicians through campaign donations etc. It is better than punching some one in the face and you can ruin lives, economies, and countries at your will if you have enough money and a great legal team.
I know you know this goes on all over the world all the time. Bribes are efficient tools to controlling governments even if they are called campaign contributions, county fees, taxes, etc. Remember power corrupts and the greater the power the greater the corruption and the more money you have the greater the power you have to facilitate this corruption in a way that benefits you.
These are all "illegal" means but they are used over and over. Just look at the bank bailouts, Car maker bailouts etc. The government here now owns enough stock to hire and fire corporate executives at will and if you gave a large enough campaign contribution you can make suggestions and fight that way.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
two: same story here with the exception that the politician is indeed committing aggression. but he does not do that with a million bucks in bank, but with police, IRS and such stuff. in short, guns.
you somehow look on one side of the bribe only. and the less important side. the dude committing aggression is the one with power. bribery does not give them power, just misdirects it.
but to return to the original topic: today in the west, we deal with corrupt leaders handing out bailouts. 500 years ago the king could just order your head to be chopped off at his will, with no explanation whatsoever. so even in this, we advanced. what is the reason for that is debated. but i think getting richer is a part of it.
pat gilbert 100+
I don't get the connection of the inspirational link?
Regarding the soul since the most cathartic activity for life is life I would say yup it beats the hell out of the alternative...
Jedrek Stepien 10+
In the postapocalyptic world shown in the movie, people were hunting other people; eating them, and if you follow my conversation with Krisztian down below, you will know why it is there.
Yes, if you could join us there, Pat? please read my twitter-style conversation with Krisztian and say what you think?
pat gilbert 100+
The fact is growing wealth changes behavior for the better almost all rich guys give back and that becomes their focus. Contrary to Socialist beliefs that are incessantly spewed by the media they just are not true.
Jedrek Stepien 10+
Giving back may have different motivations. The whole CSR is aimed at snatching even greater profits in the future, for example.
But you made me think, anyway, I am driving at something but perhaps it is not the wealth I should blame...
But then again, even when you earn decently, but 50 or more percent you give away in the form of taxes, something in you starts rebelling, and you become indifferent... yes, maybe it is taxes...
pat gilbert 100+
Screw the academic stuff the reality is that most rich guys become philanthropists this is just the way it is.
It is inherent in humans to take care of their own on a world wide scale this is a spiritual dynamic that is part of who we are.
Jedrek Stepien 10+
Still, it is a different story. Thanks Pat for your contribution.
pat gilbert 100+
Jedrek Stepien 10+
pat gilbert 100+
Sean Sorrell
Jedrek Stepien 10+
Christian Sorrell
Essentially, a bad person is often a bad person whether wealthy or not and will continue to be such as they gain or lose wealth which will change their ability to do harm to others, care only for themselves, etc. I would only say this is true most of the time though as wealth (just like poverty) can manipulate the soul and make it easy to rationalize things a person would have formally been against.
Jedrek Stepien 10+
natasha nikulina 50+
"What you own , owns you in equal measure.''
Any thoughts ?
Jedrek Stepien 10+
It is nevertheless possible to resist the "mineralization" of the soul as I call it. I have personally meet people, and I hope you as well, who were not glued to their positions whether in government or anywhere, who were not affraid to simply take their suitcase and leave at once the comfortable and successful life they had had.
They were not possessed by the external. I wonder how do you develop an attitude like this. To me it is a tremendous courage, and a human quality incomparable to nothing else!
To be able to give up power/wealth and just leave.
natasha nikulina 50+
To give up wealth/power and leave really needs courage, it's a big jump to make. Frankly I have never met such people, once you said 'Yes" and enter this game, you are bound to obey the rules and here 'miniralization' begins. But still it is only the surface...
Why do people strive for wealth in the first place ?
Jedrek Stepien 10+
1. Own property (all property in the world)
2. Conquer everybody else
I think Jesus found yet another way - believe in afterlife.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
Others just can't seem to give it up. Their job or money making is so much a part of their identity.
I guess some just have a melt down and want to escape the responsibility or pressure.
If I had X million I'd quit what I'm doing and focus on doing something I really enjoy or am more passionate about.
Obey No1kinobe 50+
natasha nikulina 50+
-Ego.
For it is always insecure, always threatened, always need extension to rule to dominate to control.
And I think, there is no need to believe in afterlife, for there is no 'after' , it's simply life.
Jesus, Buddha are the guys who managed through their consciousness to tap directly into timeless continuity.( Forgive me my innocent blasphemy )
This state of consciousness is called Christ Consciousness .
You and me and anybody else can be there too, if we choose to.
I don't claim for truth, it's simply the way how i see it... now :)
Jedrek Stepien 10+
You are absolutely right about Christ and Buddha. The concept of Christ Consciousness appeals to me as well. Mind you, it has very little to do with religion. I have never really liked preachers and kept myself away from church anyway.
Thanks for helping me here with the concept of CC :) it's great!
natasha nikulina 50+
Jedrek Stepien 10+
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Jedrek Stepien 10+
Whaddaya think? :)
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Jedrek Stepien 10+
I give you a choice - keep your Porshe and Crib, but vote yes for cannibalism. Otherwise, I take your possesions. Since cannibalism is rare you can think - what the heck.
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Jedrek Stepien 10+
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Jedrek Stepien 10+
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Jedrek Stepien 10+
But seriously, if you can't see the difference it is a myopia. For all the economic freedom you so ardently fight for (and I am your soldier there) means nothing if it is legally possible to grow/kill humans. Think about who will decide whether you are to be a consumer or someone's dinner? It is central planning in its more macabre form.
The sad fact is that wealth has an assuaging impact on human perception of dignity and freedom. They will trade virtually everything for the (fake) feeling of security that comes with wealth. That is how relativism is born.
Mises, otherwise fantastic economist, was wrong on this one. The majority can not decide about the moral principles. It is a trap which will ultimately lead to the same point where totalitarianism goes - serfdom. Only this time in the most fundamental matter - to be or not to be.
I am sure sooner or later you will understand my point, as I know you are heck of a good guy and brilliant thinker*.
* please note that my intention is not to kiss your a**
Krisztián Pintér 200+
you have to show me how wealth creates those things you have mentioned. i believe need and uncertainty creates them. wealth reduces need and uncertainty.
Jedrek Stepien 10+
Need and uncertainty creates what? ask direct question, what "those things"?
Krisztián Pintér 200+
this urge goes down with more and more wealth at hand. diminishing marginal utility.
Jedrek Stepien 10+
In practice, however, it applies only to certain kind of people who remain the same whether they are poor or morbidly rich (very rare species).
The masses, which are of my concern, are far from feeling secure and, let it be clear, they will never be. Turning to gold in order to secure themselves they become its slaves, and their souls get mineralized just as gold itself - it looks warm and appealing but cold when you touch it.
And so they don't see what's wrong with eating humans.
James Turner 10+
The key I think may be that we are who we are regardless of the money we have and we follow our own moral compass regardless of our wealth
Krisztián Pintér 200+
but it is hard to argue that if lack of money creates fears and aggression, abundance of money does the same.
James Turner 10+
Krisztián Pintér 200+
James Turner 10+
Krisztián Pintér 200+
Rhona Pavis 50+
Jedrek Stepien 10+
Rhona Pavis 50+
Jedrek Stepien 10+
Issues which may ultimately deprive them of their wealth but it is another story. Please, read the twitter-style conversation I have had here with Krisztian if you like.
Rhona Pavis 50+