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Are grownup bullies teaching kids how to bully?
Media personalities like Rush Limbaugh and Keith Olberman make a living by catalyzing the ire of their audiences through their incendiary tactics.
Leaders themselves, from pastors to politicians to parents to Tea Partiers and Black Panthers square off against different others.
Sparks are a flying, to say least.
And new movies like "The Hunger Games" and "Bully" provide brutal images that imply youth brutality can be catalyzed by adult cultures where competitive vitriol prevails.
Meanwhile, in the real world, communities and schools struggle to manage the bully-culture that has lead to increasingly more mental health concerns, if not more suicides by ostracized kids.
So, folks.
Who's to blame for bullying: kids, adults, both?
Who should lead the demise of cross-country bullying?
And the $10K Q: How?
Bullying, it seems knows no bounds. Thus, I hope this conversation doesn't get too bogged down on specific groups who suffer from bullying, but more on the larger contagions that seem to infecting many different segments of society.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts --
Andrea
Tobias Duncan 200+
Andrea Morisette Grazzini 30+
Can you explain in more detail how you feel we are "far more considerate and growing more so" each day?
It is a wonderfully encouraging comment, but stands out from so much that seems to convey a different reality.
Andrea
Tobias Duncan 200+
Can you think of a time in western history(maybe acnient Greece...maybe) when it was ok to be openly gay?
What about atheism?
How would you like to have been a black person in the 1930s?
Mary M. 100+
Tobias, gays have been around openly....ever since Bible times....
Atheism has also been around for a long time.
And well, blacks have enjoyed life openly and without bullying for way longer than the 1930's..........all over the world.
Are you saying that bullying is just an issue that affects gays, atheist, and blacks???
Are you limiting bullying to just the U.S....bullying/mobbing is a worldwide issue.
It's roots are.............well others are so much more eloquent than me.
I will echo Andrea's words: "your comment is wonderfully encouraging, but stands out from so much that seems to convery a different reality".
Tobias Duncan 200+
What part of "I only have time you give you a few examples" are you not comprehending?
Khushal Khan Khattak
Jaime Lubin 10+
Khushal Khan Khattak
Stuart Woods 10+
Andrea Morisette Grazzini 30+
Your comment that the absence of bullying is not friendship brings to mind the concept of "adversarial collaboration." Which doesn't deny difference and debate, or even distaste for the other, perhaps. But does acknowledge the need for co-productive relationship.
I'm not sure adversarially collaborative relationships meet the standard of healthy relationships that navigate ups and downs, but, perhaps serve as a stepping stone that helps foster respectful modeling and behaviors.
Andrea
Danielle C.
Mark Hurych
We humans need to get together on all levels, rearing children, within families, within communities, and even across the large-scale community of the human family. (I use family literally since all 7 billion of us are related as of 70,000 years ago.) On the global scale, bullying is still rampant. Military options are often seen as viable tools for fixing what is essentially a problem of "not sharing."
So I'd say the problem is not isolated among children or parents alone. It is global. Here is a disease we can cure.
In a single idea, I think we need "community building."
It's not easy, but nothing worthwhile ever is.
Andrea Morisette Grazzini 30+
Your comment brings to mind a conversation a fellow researcher and I had with teens. One young man, who'd sometimes struggled to get along, noted that if bullies are removed from bullied, nothing is gained and something critical might be lost.
That is, the opportunity for bully and bullied to get to know each other in community.
As example: he spoke of another youth he often sparred with, but nonetheless found himself continually having to deal with. He said both he and the other youth found ways to get along--largely through playing basketball, as it happens.
He noted with profound maturity the loss it would have been for them not to have remained in the community setting where not getting along became less and less an option due simply to ongoing time together.
Andrea
Jaime Lubin 10+
Jaime Lubin 10+
Mark when the human structures are so rigid as social is because the social building is made from persons, and a person is a mask, a simulation, so the social building is made from masks.
The community is a net not a building...a net is flexible and strong at the same time..
is made from individuals (IN DIVIDERE) from latin means impossible to divide.
Mary M. 100+
"Divide and conquer"................that is what we see today worldwide..
Religion divides us
Ethnicity divides us
Culture divides us
Politics divides us
Socio-economic backgrounds divides us
Intellect divides us
Gender divides us
What unites us?
LOVE.
Instead of letting the spirit of competition reign, we should strive for a spirit of cooperation.....have the same goals, values, etc...... for the betterment of humanity.
Enjoyed reading your comment. especially the latin word explanation.
Tina Abnoosi
Xie Shuhua 500+
Thank you!
Conlee Ricketts
Years ago when I started teaching I taught at a residential facility for abused, neglected, and semi-violent children. These kids were hurt, angry, and were abusive to each other, themselves, and to me as their teacher. My technique is probably too long to completely explain, but it boils down to listening to their story and showing respect. When a student was being verbally abusive to the others in class or to me, it was amazing how effective it was for me to look at that child and tell them, "I'm sorry that somewhere in your past someone has treated you so horrible that you feel that you can treat others this way. That person was wrong, and you shouldn't have had to endure that, no one should, and I am sorry that happened to you! It shouldn't have."
Simply acknowledging that you have no idea what their past is, but that it was probably a violation of who they are, and that you basically care enough to say you're sorry was able to move mountains for me. I think that for most of my students it was the first time they had ever heard an adult apologize, for anything.
I think they want to share their story and that they don't understand how their actions wound others because they are young, fragile, and very ego-centric. You have to help them step out of that "it's all about me" mindset and it is very challenging!
Robert Winner 50+
Patricia Chujman
I'm from Argentina and I teach at a primary and secondary school. Bullying is an issue!
I totally agree with the fact that media influences society and movies like the ones you mention plus video games in which the more you bully the faster you win the game are damaging kids'minds!!
As adults, we should help both the bully and the bullied, since they both have problem which are being shown in different ways.
Let's be on the alert to be able to help.
Patricia
Conlee Ricketts
I continually say to all: those of us over thirty no longer have the emotional point of reference to equate our experience in middle or high school with that of today's youth. The culture of 24/7 contact creates a level of potential embarrassment and harassment that I would have never experienced. Creating stress levels for youth far above what I would have known and been able to cope with. However today's kids see it all as perfectly normal and "it is what it is" kind of attitude. The adolescent brain is wired for emotional action and reaction leaving the use of logic as a second choice, so add to this a constant contact with parents (perhaps bullying parents) teachers, friends, random acquaintances, and it's a recipe for pain.
The energy put into helping victims is vital, but there also needs to probably be ten times that energy put into working with and trying to understand the bullies as well. They are certainly victims of bullying somewhere in their life as well and have chosen to self-soothe in this way.They are hardened and find the topic of empathy pathetic and boring. They need help and protection from themselves and others, but their actions make it an "undesirable" task. And having worked with their parents who perpetuate the pride in their bully-child make it impossible to work with the parents. So, you are left with the child. The child. Who in all likelihood without intervention will grow to become the adult bully.
These are children, both bullies and victims, that are living an emotional, technological experience that we adults did not. I propose that we ask them. Then listen to them without our "expert" point of view of "how to be a teen".
Gary Ackerman
In society, there is the dominant popular culture. In education, there is the assumption that standardized tests measure meaningful learning. In politics, there is the assumption that capitalism and our brand of “democracy” are universally positive systems. In religion, there are the unquestioned books.
Because all of these break down under serious inquiry, leaders must take steps to compel compliance. Bullying occurs when those steps are perceived as excessive by those to whom they are applied. Notice that there are different perceptions that can be applied to the same actions: What the leader perceives as “doing what is necessary for the organization,” the members perceives as “bullying.”
Minimizing bullying in the adult world will require:
1) Preventing those with narcissistic tendencies from ascending to leadership positions. (This step is much easier to state than to accomplish.) A corollary to this step: skilled and competent individuals can leave organizations in which a bully is in charge, thus weakening the organization.
2) Developing a culture that values innovation and recognizes the economic (and social and aesthetic and political...) advantages realized only through innovative thinking. For this to happen, it is necessary that leaders recognize compelling “the” way be followed prevents innovation.
Andre Poirier
Andrea Morisette Grazzini 30+
I believe your friend is referring to the Hans Christian Anderson story "The Emperor Has No Clothes."
The story is an indictment on the social effects of denial. In fact, much social denial has more to do with the coercive effect of social norms. In other words, few who know the truth (and in fact, it is typically a "hidden majority" which does) will actually speak to it.
So to your point about when humanity will surpass this condition, I'd say, when many more speak up to the truth. And, as with negative social norms that are sustained due to social silencing, this effect can be accelerated if more speak up.
Andrea
Derek Young 30+
The world of make beilieve is nice, but I think that reality is a much bigger issue that needs to be focused upon now.
Thanks for reading my thoughts.
jenese james belzer
in my country we also have a problem with bully's but i look out on the world stage and i see the US as the biggest bully of the global playground and i think how can we teach our children NOT to bully when every where they look they see bullying - to a child parents bully - adults are bullies to a child in many instances - then teaches bully, CEO's bully, people of power and influence bully, maybe not all physically but verbally and through fear and punishment or fear of withdrawing love or something valuable to that child
but the biggest bully is the US - then its the military - then its the police - bullying is every where - by its own definition - sadly
bullying comes from deeply fearful individuals and lets all get real - governments are full of people - so is the military every where is people - fearful, wounded unhappy whatever ...happy people don't bully they have no need to ...
bullying is a SYMPTOM - fear is the cause - fear is a symptom also .....what is the cause ....?
feelings are always the cause - emotions are always the cause - the behavior is the effect ...most seek to modify the behavior by getting into the thoughts but the real nitty grityt comes when exploring feelings because so many are so cut off from real feelings they don't really know anymore what it is that they feel except anger, sadness, or resentment etc ..but even these are layers of symptoms ....
Lisa Fairman
Andrea Morisette Grazzini 30+
An excellent insight.
Andrea
Ethan
David Barnett 20+
DeBee Corley
You do know that confronting bullies stops the bullying. Did you ever see a smaller kid stop a bully in their tracks?
Remember when we used to tough enough to boast "don't tread on me"?
If you don't stand of for yourself, who is going to protect you.
It appears that a "government" solution is what is requested. How has that ever helped?
Wait, you can get revenge by complaining about bullying. It's over there, no over there, behind that tree. It's everywhere.
James Turner 10+
Yale Wang
It's easier than most of us think. Simply responding differently to the bully can be easy but frightening for the victim, but it can be done. As for the bully, sometimes they are trying to fit in themselves in some new way, but they are going about the wrong way to do it. People are turning to suicide because they do not see the answer. Everything sinks back below the surface when it's undiscussed.
The basic premise of bullying is that those who are different somehow deserve to be ostracized and excluded. WRONG. Perhaps they naturally need to work harder to gain acceptance, but perhaps there is another part of ourselves we are refusing to accept in this modern hubristic day and age.
peter lindsay 30+
James Turner 10+
peter lindsay 30+
Andrea Morisette Grazzini 30+
Interesting. Can you explain more regards victim personas?
Andrea
peter lindsay 30+
Andrea Morisette Grazzini 30+
Do you know of research that supports that victim children are often children of overly litigious parents?
Related to this, it occurs to me that we in the US live in an increasingly litigious society. And, I wonder if kids of bullies might also have parents who tend towards litigiousness? It seems there might be a correlation on both sides, in the sense that both seem to struggling with working things out in and with each other in school, neighborhood, team or other community setting.
Your suggestion that bullies and victims both need education makes sense. Perhaps the best education for both would be one that catalyzes self-esteem and ability to navigate myriad social situations. Including a sense of shared responsibility for each other, in contrast to co-mutual lack of self-responsibility and/or control.
Andrea
Kylie Dunn 10+
Personally, I was bullied quite attrociously as a child, but they became somewhat relentless in my latter high school years. I "made it worse" for myself because one of the main bullies had a crush on my boyfriend (which I didn't know until later), so there was a big dose of jealousy poured on top. I can't even begin to think of how much worse this would have been with mobile phones and social media.
Unfortunately it is such an ingrained part of our society that I don't know there is a way out of it. I've experienced it in all of my workplaces, only once as the victim but I have seen others being bullied - and I think that the civilian jobs were even worse than my time in the military in some ways.
We also experience it far too often in our media, and not just the narrow minded talk back radio media either (the Australian versions of Rush Limbaugh) who push hatred and bully anyone who might contradict their opinion. But even in our mainstream media there is this thread of "nasty is funny" and we should be able to mercilessly pick on people who aren't like the mainstream image. And do not get me started about the nitpicking, bullying nature of politics in this country, I hate watching the news because they are worse than watching schoolyard bullies.
I think that the only way to make this better is through decent leadership. Leaders in is politics, organisations, schools and communities who don't use bullying as a technique and are willing to speak out or pull others up when they do. Only when it is socially unacceptable to bully will it stop.
But this also means giving people other mechanisms to deal with their feelings and issues - good luck!
Andrea Morisette Grazzini 30+
Your comments about Aussie "talk back" media reminds me of a writer for "Online Opinion" Which bills itself as "Australia's E-Journal of Social and Political Debate."
Bashir Goth's (http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/author.asp?id=4006) writing was introduced to me by a Somalian refugee in the US when he and I dialogued about what triggers social reactivity. Your observation that some who've been bullied do not repeat the cycle really sets off reminder bells of Bashir's themes for me.
The refugee man and I were debating on your "nature/nuture" lines. His feeling was bullying is somewhat unavoidable in chaotic societies like Somalia. My "from afar" view is that human nature is equally as infused with capacities for benevolence, even in chaotic situations, similar to your observation.
Though I have never been in Somalia, so this was audaciously idealistic, if not naively so, of me. To his tremendous credit, my co-debater, an elderly man who I believe had been a military leader, reflected on my hopeful belief. And followed it up by sending me this stunning piece from Bashir, which affirms your point:
http://hanua.blogspot.com/
Here is the last stanza of the poem Bashir posted at the bottom of the essay, a plea to Somalians to stop fighting:
"Bare bones everywhere
Carcass smell in summer
- lonely bird above
***
Last whistle not blown
Buds sprouting everywhere
- bees out in spring."
Andrea
Kylie Dunn 10+
"Ironically, it is women who despite bearing the brunt of all society’s ills that have kept the Somali people afloat over the last 20 years of internecine wars and misery caused by men."
It's not always the women but this is what I mean, not all victims take on the traits of their oppressors. Many use it as a means of defining what they will never be and what they will no longer tolerate.
Looks like I have a new site to read through, thanks for the link Andrea.
Andrea Morisette Grazzini 30+
Powerful comment.
It reminds me of something I need to be reminded of over, and over again -- and, when I'm perched on my soap-box have been known to "preach" to others. (Ugh.)
We can't possibly know what pain anyone is enduring or has endured. And we can't possibly know the power in helping redirect another's energies as you and this Sheriff have. In fact, I'd say we benefit ourselves by re-directing our energies to redirecting others energies, too. If that makes sense.
The challenge is how can we as societies teach positive energy re-direction to all from early on as a "survival skill?"
Or, put another way, how do we model and teach the self-protective benefits of pro-social skills and efforts?
Andrea
Roy Bourque 20+
I've been going over this topic in my mind for some time. Here are a few more observations;
I was bullied when I was in grade school. I finally beat up the bully out of anger and frustration. He then wanted to be my friend. I asked him why he bullied me before. He said "because you let me". I found out that his parents were divorced and he had no father figure at home. He needed to know where the line was to be drawn. He was testing me just like children test their parents at how far they can go.
My granddaughter was bullied in school but was afraid to tell. The general attitude is peer pressure; "don't be a snitch or a rat". Kids are very sensitive to this mindset. They need to be taught that bullying is wrong and that they have not only a right, but an obligation to report it.
I don't remember where it was, but there was a news report where a school got bullies and bullied together in a gym and with a counselor, got the two to talk about why they did what they did and how it made each other feel. Many of the bullies were not aware of how much an impact their actions had, even not admitting to being a bully until the truth was brought out. Often, people can't see the bad in themselves, only others.
My psychology professor ran a psychiatric clinic. He was surprised to find out that many of his clients were third and forth generation victims of domestic violence. They finally decided to get help so they wouldn't victimize their own children.
The more we bring this topic to the table, the more people will be aware of how much of it is going on. I think that the fact that bullying is wrong, and its ill effects, should be taught to school kids just like the dangers of illegal drug use are today. The more we know, the more we can bring it out into the open.
Fritzie Reisner 100+
My twin sister and I were with my parents at a store. My father was a reserved, very European little man from the Old Country. Near the register, an angry woman was yelling at and hitting her child- really beating her child- repeatedly. My father went up to her and said, "Madame, are you planning next time to do this with a hammer?"
She stopped right away and a few minutes later apologized to my mother. And I remember to this day my father stepping forward to disrupt the beating of the small child.
Andrea Morisette Grazzini 30+
What an image to have imbedded in your (and this other young child's) experience of authentically judicious paternal strength, and the power of a "velvet hammer" driving home a transformative point.
Inspiring.
Andrea
Roy Bourque 20+
Neo-Nazi, white supremacists, militant warriors are all taught at an early age who their enemies are. Whether it is true or not makes no difference, the student believes in the teacher. Bullying is a survival skill. The bully is less likely to be bullied.
I had a friend that was bullied in school. It was later found that the bully was being molested by a pedophile priest. His father was a prominent businessman and wanted his son to be special so he disciplined him harshly and forced him into being an altar boy so he would be above the others. The son didn't know how to tell his father the truth because he saw two outcomes; one - his father would beat him for telling a horrific lie (priests aren't like that) or two - his father would believe him, kill the priest and be in jail for murder. Unable to deal with either one, he took his anger out on others.
There was a local bully approached by the town sheriff. The bully acted all tough until the sheriff asked him if he wanted a job. The sheriff explained to the boy that the town stocked the local pond for tourists but kids were fishing out of season and depleting the pond. He was given a badge and explained what needed to be done. He was rewarded for good behavior and explained his faults. The boy went on to become a state trooper.
I went to a church social with three others to babysit kids who's parents went on a field trip. There was one boy all out of control. I wanted to give him a "what for" when the group leader decided to play a game. Realizing that this boy was hyper, he gave him the job of referee which would require considerable moving about. I was amazed how well this boy did the job. He simply needed something to direct his energy on and he was fine.
I have learned from these cases not to judge others based on behavior, but to try to determine what might be the cause.