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how has a belief in an afterlife affected the quality of life on earth?
I see this as multi-faceted. Starting with those who believe;
A-1: Some believe that life hereafter is dependent on how well they have upheld the golden rule.
A-2: Some believe that life hereafter is only determined by adherence to religious ritual and doctrine.
A-3: Some believe that they have a duty to uphold God's law and to defend it with whatever it takes in order to get God's approval.
Now to those who don't believe;
B-1: If this is all you have to give, give it all you have to offer.
B-2: He who dies with the most toys wins. The losers are just a bunch of stupid people anyway.
B-3: If life doesn't go on, why should I live in poverty while others live like kings? Let's take the world by force; Might makes right.
We all know what category Richard Dawkins is in; B-1. He sees religious people as not caring about this life because religion steers them in that direction. He abhors those who would kill in the name of God, and I don't blame him. People in this category see religion as a threat to the preservation of this planet.
What category are drug cartels and human traffickers in? They don't kill you quickly, they suck the life out of you over time. Is A-3 any better or worse than B-3? there are many who choose not to do evil because they believe in divine retribution. Would taking away that belief make them better or worse?
I don't see this question as black and white. I would like to see A-1 and B-1 come together and work to eliminate all the others. Can we do that, and what would it take?
I am open to anyone else's thoughts on the subject.
Closing Statement from Roy Bourque
I have found in the comments that it can go both ways. Many feel that a belief in an afterlife has caused many to have a contempt for this life. Some feel that they are connected to something greater, but don't see it as God. Some have left the church they were in for something that has more meaning in the present life.
What a person believes is largely dictated by what they were taught unless they choose to seek for themselves. I believe that religion was originally meant as a guide for seeking, but has been monopolized by institutions to promote their beliefs. Many others feel the same way, but differ in how they chose to seek.
Today, science has taken the lead in many person's tools to understand the world. Some have gone beyond their faith but still use the tools of science to augment how they see the world. For them it is not one-sided, but a compromise between the two, gleaning from each other to expose the truth wherever it may exist.
Adriaan presents links on Swedenborg. It offers teachings by one who has lived a spiritual life.
The negatives to the debate are concerning those who would do terrible things to please God because that is what they have been taught. They see an afterlife as a way out of a wicked world. Churches use fear, punishment, and reward to promote a moral code and lock their parishioners into a belief system that is unswerving.
The positives are concerning a connectedness to a greater whole. Some find solace in believing in an afterlife in a world that has left them with little to hope for in their present life.
I see an afterlife as an extension of our present life. Should we return here, why not leave the planet better off. If science can tell us how to do that, then so be it. Should we go somewhere else, why would God choose someone who couldn't take care of the world they were entrusted with? Should we go nowhere, why not learn all we can about the world we live in?
Find the truth however you can, and share it.
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Orlando Hawkins 20+
Roy: You must understand that many religions on the planet have books that are full of injunctions about how one should live and if they follow these injunctions, they will be rewarded in the next life. This is essentially what most people are taught and this is exactly what they envision and this is their first encounter with notions about the afterlife. This may not be your notion and It certainty does not seem to be but you cannot simply ignore the fact that certain books and groups offer perceptions of the afterlife and at times serves as a guide.
Now you mentioned your experiences. Although I am skeptical about an afterlife and do not believe in God, I do believe in the validity of spiritual, transformative experiences. But none of these offer anything about an after-life about a realm of experience that is suppose to come to us once we are dead. I am with you that we are more than bodies but this says absolutely nothing about the afterlife, it just states that there is a side to us that is non-physical. Now I am open-minded about the existence of an after-life but I do not think its likely.
Adriaan:
I'll take a look at the link you provided for me and as I told Roy, having experience's where we feel more than just physical bodies does not offer anything about the afterlife. It just shows that we can be exposed to a different range of experience than the ones that we are accustomed to.
But my question is, how can one have an experience, claim it to be an afterlife and then right a book about something that they really have no idea of? Once again, I am not denying spiritual experiences but how exactly can one assert something that is deemed to only exist once we are presumed dead?
Roy Bourque 20+
I know people today who if they didn't believe that life went on and that there was not going to be a judgment, would be lost. Their belief is the only thing that keeps them going.
I don't believe that holy wars are all about fighting for God. I think many use that as an excuse to justify fighting in a world that has become too hostile in their corner of the world.
Ken brown 30+
Sorry roy i reread it and thought "Yeah he's right" it has nothing to do with anything though it's a good statement to use in future debates but then it would be just a weapon nothing more.
What should be said is only a man that is confident of his existence and his return would even comtemplate saying these things.The only time i've seen in the great book where souls are in heaven is when they were revealed to john? in revelation and they weren't running around with little wings,they were at rest and they were the sacrificed that died in his name.
If there is a flipping large group of Christians out there that believe in a heaven for themselves and would lose their faith like that family did in one of your posts then sadly they are the wheat that fell on sand.Look i'm not criticizing what you saw as a child but those who believe he created the universe all know it's his hand you will find at the lowest levels of this great electro-simulation we call reality.The design is nothing but truely elegant,from simple to intricate yet nothing is a total replicant of itself,a boiling mass of simplicity to intricacy constantly recycling itself.
Only the pure of heart will see his face but for rest of us we have this awesome place to explore.
Remember Christ could see those that survived the flood and they are still here,they were once transdimensional but could not interact on this physical level unless they gave up their oketerion or houses or form or body and switch over to a human form.The sons of god.If one believes then would hair,skin,bone and brain be a barrier to these beings.
Of course a modern person will laugh but it's there in the books.
I deleted the first paragraph because it was wrong,it did not correspond with scripture,if any other of my post shows this please correct me.
Adriaan Braam 20+
"But my question is, how can one have an experience, claim it to be an afterlife and then right a book about something that they really have no idea of? Once again, I am not denying spiritual experiences but how exactly can one assert something that is deemed to only exist once we are presumed dead?"
Because our "after life" is not a solitary experience. When our body dies we joint the billions of people that have died before us. In fact that spiritual world is sooo real, that is where now our thoughts and feelings come from. Those come to us because we are very much spirit too.
When our body dies, means to become conscious in the very same spirit world we are in now. It is the 'condition' between heaven and hell. We have several stages to go through to finally go to one or the other, heaven or hell. We are only here (seconds compared to eternity) to determine our eternal 'home'
This link is a book about that very realm
http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/documents/TheSpiritualWorld.pdf
Have a great weekend!
Ken brown 30+
I tried reading that pdf about Swedenbourg but found it too confusing,i'll try when I'm open minded which comes in spurts.Can i ask you a Question?Like you said "this world is mere seconds compared to eternity which in a way i agree with you but i have a problem with existence after we die,Why create a universe of this size and supposedly bigger beyond our observable limits and just have us occupy just this tiny rock,a mere mote of dust then have us leave it? As far as i know heaven is another dimension separate from this universe,Why would The Prime Intellect waste his time creating it?
We are created to near likeness of him and our older siblings but we are not them or come near them due to the limitations of our organic design for this physical universe.Why inspire a series of books then have it that only a few could properly understand it?That to me is a holdover from the Egyptian priesthood caste and the Catholic system.I wasn't raised in a classic European system of church but was brought up in a ethnic crossover religion of Christianity which didn't fit and when i looked around i found the old churches were just full of traditions that had nothing to do with the book.
One doesn't write a book then disguise it to the point where it takes mystic visions sent to help read it,again this leads to making God a fallible being.The last one who can say that they had a proper vision was John on the isle of Patmos during his incarceration and he cursed any who tries to add to it.Do you know how many out there in the world have had visions of Gods plans?The book,His word warns of this happening,why write it if every vision comes from him?Why build this universe then change plans?
In somethings I'm intractable and the Great Artist our God didn't create this place to be abstract and mystical our scientists are proving this with every leap they make of course they can't answer everything as we are limited to design.Why write the words Those who sleep in dust
Adriaan Braam 20+
“I tried reading that pdf about Swedenborg but found it too confusing”
Well don’t worry about it. The first chapter is a kind-of history about the spiritual realm and an introduction to how Swedenborg worked. You may prefer to read another chapter first.
If you'd like, have a look at my site http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/
“Why create a universe of this size and supposedly bigger beyond our observable limits and just have us occupy just this tiny rock, a mere mote of dust then have us leave it? As far as i know heaven is another dimension separate from this universe, Why would The Prime Intellect waste his time creating it?”
Part of why this is all here, is for us to enjoy, use and maintain, whether we are believers or not, scientists, thinkers, searchers. But the most important reason is so we can shape our character while we’re here. Only while in this body we can first pretend to be good people and then learn to love being good and so actually become a good person. What we love determines our character, and that’s the only thing we take with us. We can only decide what we love, while in complete freedom and that determines ‘where’ we’ll go after our body dies.
“Why inspire a series of books then have it that only a few could properly understand it?”
We can only get to know God through Revelation. We have the freedom to read it or deeply study that Revelation or completely ignore it. We also do believe that ANY good person, of whatever religion goes to heaven. There is no entry test, and we will not be asked what religion we belonged to or how often we went to church. Only one thing will be asked and that is, why did you do whatever you did. Was it for selfish reasons or because you loved doing good for the sake of goodness.
“Why build this universe then change plans?”
God never changed the plan. He did however accommodate His Revelation to all the changes we humans went through during the many ages we’ve been here.
Adriaan Braam 20+
http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/documents/CityofGod.pdf
"God didn't create this place to be abstract and mystical our scientists are proving this with every leap they make of course they can't answer everything"
Good point. I have nothing against science until they claim to have proof that there is no God. Swedenborg always was a scientist besides being a revelator. If we are true to ourselves, they should combine perfectly. They are from the one same Source.
Thanks Ken, your questions are much appreciated. (and this religion does encourage questions, we did not get our brains to just become smart shoppers :)
Mary M. 50+
And, let me just say, that Swedenborg's experiences with the supernatural is something that many people never really doubted. The real question is, what supernatural beings he had contact with.
How could God inspire his holy scriptures, then turn around and have an imperfect man come behind and remove books from the canon, and add his own revelations.....it just doesn't have the ring of truth Adriaan.
Here's something that I ran across in our literature regarding Swedenborg. It is the tail end of an article several pages long:
"The ideas set forth by Swedenborg may be fascinating to some persons, but they hold no interest for those who love God. While the group is called “The New Jerusalem descended from God out of heaven,” it has demonstrated that it is not of God, denying his supremacy and rejecting his Word. (Rev. 22:18, 19) Although claiming to be the true Christian religion, it has proved false to that boast by ignoring the teachings of Christ and rejecting his ransom sacrifice. Swedenborg claimed that there is no Devil, but in so doing he blinded himself to danger and fell into the trap. Although perhaps unknowingly, he served the interests of the adversary Satan the Devil by teaching his lie of immortality of the human soul, by distorting God’s purpose regarding man and by setting aside God’s Word."
I'm sorry Adriaan, it is very hard to believe in something that makes the Bible null and void. At least it is very difficult for me personally.
Thank you for reading my comment. I wish I could discuss this topic more in depth, but unfortunately I lack the time.
Adriaan Braam 20+
"The ideas set forth by Swedenborg may be fascinating to some persons, but they hold no interest for those who love God."
Right, for anyone that believes in three Gods this indeed holds no interest.
But explaining a meaning of text makes it more applicable, thus more reason to love God. We love a person depending and based on their character, not their physical body, I hope. The meaning behind the literal text connects us with the ONE Lord God Jesus Christ of heaven (not three).
"it has demonstrated that it is not of God, denying his supremacy and rejecting his Word. (Rev. 22:18, 19)"
Please, what is that based on??
"..ignoring the teachings of Christ and rejecting his ransom sacrifice. Swedenborg claimed that there is no Devil",
This is absolutely not true!! Half the book Heaven and Hell is about the Devil
"..teaching his lie of immortality of the human soul, by distorting God’s purpose regarding man and by setting aside God’s Word."
Again, not true, when we are born we come into existence to (spiritually) not die again. Connecting with God does that.
"I'm sorry Adriaan, it is very hard to believe in something that makes the Bible null and void."
What do you mean? "null and void"? Just think of any story that you know from the Word; The Seven Days of Creation, Adam and Eve, Cain killing his brother Abel, Noah's Ark — they are all parables that apply to us! So, too, is the journey of the Israelites from Egypt to Canaan and the conquest of the land; and in the New Testament, those miracles and healings done by the Lord when He was on earth, His cleansing of the temple, the strange visions in the Book of Revelation culminating in the Holy City, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven. Every single one of those stories has a deeper, spiritual or heavenly meaning in it. In fact, the Lord caused it to be included in His Divine Word simply and solely because of the heavenly meaning, it's spiritual teaching. This makes it God's word!
Adriaan Braam 20+