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siddhesh vaze

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who is right, free will or determinism. ?

this is what i know ablout free will , that anything in this world can happen , there is always a free choice for events to occur.
and this is what i know about deterinism . that everything in this world is determined/ pre-planned and it can not be changed , events will occur as they have to .
with taking this knowledge into assumption , who is right free will or determinism.

lets put a hypothesis that determinism is right.
now in the end if we prove that determinism is wrong then the basic assumption contradicts with the result. so if you assume world to be deterministic , it wont allow you to be non-deterministic.

but lets just put a hypothesis that there is free-will in this world. that everything is possible. then if we conclude that the world is deteriministic , then our original assuption dont contradicts with our result. it means that free-will allows the world to be deterministic.
dont this proves free-will to be right?

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    Mar 26 2012: A little Christian perspective.
    The bible gives an overview of world history from beginning to end. So far we seem to be 'on target". So things would seem to be predetermined.
    God urges us to make the right choices; so we have free will.
    But God knows 'the end from the beginning' because he is outside of time. So our free will is predetermined.
    Simple; isn't it ?
    (This is a personal perspective, & may have flaws)

    :-)
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      Mar 26 2012: actually im an atheist , but still f you think about it...........
      actually , what you are you talking about is from two different perspectives. like its determined from gods view and free-will'ed from mans.
      also even though god is out of time how would it make any difference or to say that god's frame of reference is universal frame of reference that is right?
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        Mar 26 2012: Hi Siddhesh.
        I agree; from our perspective we have free will, from God's it is predetermined. If the bible is right, then he created time. Science tells us that matter has to exist for time to exist. So he made the universe complete with time, it will run it's course, & he will remove it again.
        The bible gives the gist of what has, & will happen. He knows it all, because he made the whole package. We however are part of the package, so we make our decisions as we go. The only clues we get are in the bible; when we have to make a decision we can get an idea of which way he would want us to go, but it's still our decision.

        :-)
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          Mar 27 2012: hello peter,
          i agree with you, that its different from 2 different perspectives .
          do you mean to say that as god created world and he determined our free-will, so naturally world is dereministic.
          also please explain "matter has to exist for time to exist?" and elaborate "he made the universe complete with time , it will run its course '& he will remove it again. (remove what again ? time ?)
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          Mar 27 2012: Hi Siddhesh, I do not want to confuse the issue but this is from a New Christian perspective. It is just some details that change.
          We indeed have no control over what happens to us but total freedom how to react to whatever does happen. The whole Bible is about God saying 'Please do as I suggest and then I can make you the happiest person ever'.
          God created humans with freewill because that is the very thing that makes us human. Animals do not have freewill but are controlled by their instinct. Freewill allows us to decide what (or who) to love. If ANY force is used by anyone outside of us, there can not be love. Love can only exist in freedom so not even God will force the issue. He can, and does, only knock at our door and hopes we will let Him in.

          So, if we are a (mentally) healthy individual we have complete, 100%, freedom to choose what to believe and what to do.
          God does not determine anything for us or about us. God knows what we will choose and do because He is just as much in the future as He is in the now. In fact that's what it means to be omniscient and omnipresent and infinite. God is in time but not 'attached' to time, He is in space but not part of space, or limited by either.

          After our body dies we will have only an appearance of time, not actual time. We will be in a state of mind that we are in this world for, to determine what state that will be.

          Sidd, if you'd like to read something, in this book is one whole chapter about time and another about space in the next life, among many other subjects,
          http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/documents/Heaven%20and%20Hell.pdf

          One indication that time is only in the here and now, is that when we like what we are doing time seems to fly but when we don't like what we are doing, time drags. That is because we are really spirits in a body, with no concept of time. Time is based on planets, suns etc. moving in space.
          Really appreciate your questions Sidd

          BTW, the link may well be avail. in your language
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        Mar 27 2012: Hi Siddhesh .
        Einstein discovered that time is dependent on matter existing. It's included in his theory of relativity. There's a simple version here.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7vpw4AH8QQ
        So however the universe came into being; time came into being as well.
        As I understand it, God inhabits a spiritual realm, which has no matter & no time. Eternity if you like. We also have a spiritual component by virtue of our relationship to him.
        So, I believe God made the universe, complete with time. It will run it's course, as outlined in the bible, then it will be dissolved, & a totally new universe will be created suitable for spiritual beings; without time, presumably. This I understand from studying the bible.

        :-)
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      Mar 26 2012: Hi Peter,

      would this also relate to Adam & Eve and the fall from the Garden of Eden? How would free-will play a role if, God had already pre-determined that they would eat from the tree of knowledge?

      I'm interested in your answer because as far as I know, it seems unfair to punish someone for something that you created them to do?
      • Mar 26 2012: Hi, Orlando !
        I agree with you. Seeing God as the Holy Other requires incredible manipulations of reality and enormous blocks and blind spots. I believe there is nobody to punish us, we are not punished FOR our sins but BY our sins. And maybe it will be interesting for you to know that the original meaning of the word 'sin' is 'to miss the target', so we can try again.:)
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          Mar 28 2012: Hi Natasha,

          That is very interesting. I did not know that original meaning of the word sin was "to miss the target". We've been taught to think that its God's way of keeping track of the bad deeds that you did and all of our deeds could be repelled if we only come to Jesus and embrace God (or at least that is what I was told growing up). My question is, when did meaning of sin change from "to miss the target" to "your going to hell for your actions"?

          Like you, I do not believe there is no one to punish us for the things we did. I think the fact that we experience suffering, guilt and pain is punishment enough.
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        Mar 27 2012: Hi Orlando.
        You are going way beyond my pay scale :). This is something everybody struggles with. one thing we always have to remember is that our ideas are totally different to God's. Jesus said that whoever wanted to be important in heaven, had to be a servant of all. I agree with you, I don't think it's fair either. However it's what God thinks that matters, & my concerns will come as no surprise to him.
        Okay, let's try & see God's perspective. Let's suppose you are in the market for a wife. Would you like one cloned from yourself & converted to a female. She would be a perfect match, & would agree with everything you said. She could be programmed never to leave you.
        Or would you prefer a self willed young lady who has been around a bit. Had some other boyfriends, made a few mistakes. But when you met you fell deeply in love & you just knew she was the one. You both had to work at it, because you knew a good thing when you saw it.
        I believe that in God's eyes, we are lady number two.
        He wants a bride who will make life interesting.. He gave us free will knowing full well we would use it. We have been around a bit & made many mistakes. He & we have to work at a relationship. From his point of view we are worth it; worth enough to be crucified for. That's his downside, ours is of course separation from him for eternity; but that has to be our choice. Love has to be freely given to be worth anything. We are lumbered with an eternal soul, we have to be somewhere.
        Personally I never give hell a second thought, I never had to. Atheists seem to major on it as a minus point for God, If you are worried about it then avoid it; if you're sure it doesn't exist, then why worry. No-one has to go there.

        :-)
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          Mar 27 2012: convincing..........
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          Mar 28 2012: Hi Peter,

          Wow! I wasn't expecting that response. I'm quite impressed and you sort of had me stuck for a moment.

          I can agree that such a deity, if it existed, would transcend our limited human knowledge but I do not think this is the God we are talking about here.

          We are talking a God, who is a creator deity and is very much intrigued on what goes on this planet. A god with a personality who inspired groups of men to write a book about him and which millions of people not only debate and talk about him on a daily basis but have lost their lives over a simple belief or disbelief in him.

          We are not talking about a God of great mystery or great interest here. We are talking about a God that we know very well because this God is not mysterious and according to many people, he is very active in human affairs.

          So when relating this to Free-Will, I am talking about the God that everyone around the world knows pretty well and this God does not seem to give out Free-Will because he is thought to be omnipotent and omniscient.

          when we are talking about free-will we are talking about random, spontaneous and events with endless possibilities. This would not fit the model of a being who is all knowing and very active in human affairs and would not think twice to punish them for their actions and this is the problem I see with the Fall:

          It is either God's Providence or God is not all powerful, knowing, etc. Sad to say compatibilism (which is a philosophical way of saying the world is free and determined) does not fit with this model and I think it scares many people to think that God is not all powerful or knowing but what we do not realize is that these are characteristics that we've placed on God because we believe that such a being has to fit this description.

          to be honest, many non-believers are not really concerned about hell. It is when we are told that we are going to hell for our non-belief that we raise questions.
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          Mar 28 2012: Hi Orlando. when you say the following, you've lost me:
          "when we are talking about free-will we are talking about random, spontaneous and events with endless possibilities."

          Maybe we should step back and explain what we mean with Free Will. But even before that it might be good to give some indication why we are here in the first place, why were we created?
          Swedenborgians believe that humans were created as a life form separate from God so God can love others outside of Himself, (otherwise He would be loving Himself). In order to love us God created us to go to heaven and be with Him, if we want to. That means we have the opportunity to experience heavenly joy to eternity, again, if we want to.

          With all the good and evil happening on this planet it is clear we are not here just to sit around and have a good time. As you know there are many millions who live in misery. There is just too much misery, or hell, around to see this as the one perfect and only place a loving God will supply.

          So, everyone has a will and an understanding. Our will is to posses the loves we decide to 'embody' and our understanding is our tool to shape and form those loves.

          So basically, to have a free will means we can decide what to love, and what not to love. We have the freedom to shape our will in any way we want.
          When we decide to like doing good for the sake of good and believe truth for the sake of truth we go to heaven.
          If we decide to only do good for the sake of ourselves and believe truth when it helps us in any way we go to hell.

          As they say, people in heaven are happy and blessed because they live with people just like them, for the same reason people in hell are content and satisfied.
          In heaven it is easy to share the love for others, in hell it is very difficult to share the love of self.
          God knows our choices and actions beforehand, does that mean He should do something about them??
          When we know what our kids are going to do, does that take their freedom away?? No
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        Mar 27 2012: Orlando, I'm just about to step out the door and I have posted this link a day or so before as well. You may even have seen it but this link is to the parable of Adam and Eve. Because that is what the first 11 chapters in Genesis are, parables. Natural stories with a spiritual meaning (this includes the Creation Story)
        But this is that link,
        http://webhome.idirect.com/~abraam/studies/Parable_Adam_Eve.pdf
        As there is also the parable of the Tower of Babel and others

        got to go
        Have a great night
      • Mar 29 2012: Hi, Frans !
        Yes, it seems and it generates another cause... Still it looks like a trap...Cause/ effect, free will/determinism, one exists only by the virtue of the other.
        Seriously, does God have free will ? For what exactly ? He doesn't do anything, he doesn't make choices, he simply IS. Time needs free will, Timelessness doesn't, for everything already IS and has always been here and now and forever, reconciled in all possible directions. Maybe we can exercise our free will, making only one choice : get out of the trap?! Stop making choices, do what situation requires here and now, but don't forget to " dethrone yourself from the center of your world, put another there and you'll transcend yourself ! " Free yourself from choices...
        OK, got that off my chest, back to washing dishes, as situation requires. You know, it's not that difficult so far :)

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